Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: fscott on November 30, 2000, 09:32:00 PM
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First I will apologize to my American friends for admitting that I love the 190's handling. It is a fun bird to fly. Next I shall ask for advice on how to fly this bird.
These questions are for combat engagements when actively being persued or persuing...
1) What is the speed in which you should pull up into a zoom climb after diving? I understand that the Pony and others will catch you in a long dive so I assume you should reach a certain speed then zoom.
2) 45 degree dive or vertical dive?
3) 45 degree zoom or vertical zoom?
4) How often should you use flaps for turning at the top of your zoom?
5) Which flap setting?
6) At what speed should you roll over at the top of your zoom? Stall speed or extend all the way to zero?
7) Do you loop at the top of zoom or split-S?
8) When if ever is it ok to flat turn while engaged in combat?
9) Why do the 20 mm cannons feel like .30 cal?
thanks
fscott
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Again I apologize to my American iron friends. I don't fly the best planes, or the most lethal, I fly the plane that feels the best for my joystick setup. Otherwise I'd be flying the Uber-C.
fscott
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1) What is the speed in which you should pull up into a zoom climb after diving? I understand that the Pony and others will catch you in a long dive so I assume you should reach a certain speed then zoom.
As soon as you see him too close (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), pull up HARD to blackout, roll back down and pull, and dive to the deck.
less than 10% of ponies will be able to follow that, because they always expect you to pull up at all, not to roll back down while blacked out. And even if they suspect it, there are few things they can do keep on tracking you visually (damned hard to do with a black screen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
2) 45 degree dive or vertical dive?
Depends on the situation. If enough separation is available, 0G dive up to 50-60deg.
3) 45 degree zoom or vertical zoom?
In my book there is nothing such as a vertical zoom. 2G pull to 15-20º until you hit 325-300 IAS, then 45º until 200IAs, then vertical to hammerhead.
4) How often should you use flaps for turning at the top of your zoom?
When I try to flip the nose down instead doing a hammerhead. They help the nose go down faster, and enhance control at so low speeds.
5) Which flap setting?
All I can get, they will automatically retract on the dive, and what I need is to bring the nose down fast and with enhanced control.
6) At what speed should you roll over at the top of your zoom? Stall speed or extend all the way to zero?
Well, I always try to reach 0. Then if I hammerhead or pull nose down depends on the situation.
7) Do you loop at the top of zoom or split-S?
Sorry I dont understand the question...but I use to do hammerheads.
8) When if ever is it ok to flat turn while engaged in combat?
Never. unless you MUST bleed E very fast--------->when forcing overshoots.
9) Why do the 20 mm cannons feel like .30 cal?
The best question of them all. Because is a german weapon and, as we all know, german weapons sucked bigtime.
And hispanos were the rulers of WWII Aerial combat
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 11-30-2000).]
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While you're at it, ask RAM what the best method to engage a B26 is, while flying a Focke Wulfe.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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1) What is the speed in which you should pull up into a zoom climb after diving? I understand that the Pony and others will catch you in a long dive so I assume you should reach a certain speed then zoom.
I've found that zoom climbing in the 190 mostly is useless - if the enemy has a plane with a more powerful engine, prolonging the time unnecessary to get to alt will eat away at yer e advantage. More often than not, I go for either extention or a very steep almost vertical climb followed by a hammerhead. I zoom climb now and then though.
2) 45 degree dive or vertical dive?
Both work great in the FW - if you do a 45 degree dive, you shoould use a sight like kirin's. With his bomb markings, 45 degree bomb runs are easy. 90 degree dives are somewhat more difficult to control, because you have to check left and right to make sure you're diving 90 degrees and not 80-85 to either side. I use 45 degrees mostly.
3) 45 degree zoom or vertical zoom?
Depends on your e, whether it is important that you come around fast to help a buddy, whether there are enemy planes around and what type of enemies you're fighting. My rule is; the more powerful engine the enemy has, the less time you want to give him to eat away at yer e.
4) How often should you use flaps for turning at the top of your zoom?
Flaps pop out below 200mph. I rarely use flaps when in a dogfight in the 190; if I get so slow I can use them, I've probably gotten too slow. cannot give ya a precise answer; depends on yer flying style I suppose (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
5) Which flap setting?
One notch, or you'll lose too much e having it out.
6) At what speed should you roll over at the top of your zoom? Stall speed or extend all the way to zero?
I usually roll over before stall speed; yer very vulrenable at slow speeds in the 190 and it takes a steep dive to build speed back up. But if I got an enemy on my 6 and an e adv, I'll hammerhead his bellybutton (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
7) Do you loop at the top of zoom or split-S?
I perform an immelman or a hammerhead, usually. Split s if the enemy is much lower or a buddy is in trouble, or in cases where speed is essential to survival.
8) When if ever is it ok to flat turn while engaged in combat?
Don't flat turn in the 190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Anything can catch you. Use scissors. If you MUST turn, speed ranges around 350 is the great equalizer; both you and the enemy will be limited not by plane performance, but by pilot performance.
9) Why do the 20 mm cannons feel like .30 cal?
Anti LW conspiracy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). It's real.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Hi.
Nah fscott dont worry bout it the MG151/20 really was that weak in RL, the sitution was so bad that JG26 and other Geschwader never ever ever ever dared to take off the 2 MG/FF on their 190s becase the 2 MG151/20 were so bad and useless. Yep we all know thats true yep ahem yep (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) But seriously the MG151 lethality in here is pretty bad, thats why I asked for the mineshell which was much better, about 4 times more in explosive power. As they are now I figure they are only a small margin better than US 50cals in AH, but obviously some will disagee on this. This of course was not the case in RL, where single MG151 109s had no problems killing single engine fighters of all periods and opponents, with possible exception of p47 having better resistance to cannon fire compared to most others, but 47 could be set on fire by cannon tho, something that rarely occurs in here, a fire caused by non instantly lethal damage like wing being shot off. It be great of HTC to look into this and possibly add the more interesting mineshell to the MG151/20 ammo setup.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Mausers aren't THAT bad. You light 'em up and they go down. What's the damned problem????
-SW
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Hi
Thats exactly the problem u really have to hose planes with MG151 to get a kill, very much in the way you do in US 50cal planes, all in all it seems to me that the current explosive power of the MG151 cannon shell is quite poor.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Well, I never had a problem blowing planes apart with a good 2-4 hits on a specific part, but I had my convergence pushed out to 650yds and would fire in short bursts. Could usually rack up good sorties in it and for the most part got snapshot kills, if not a kill then atleast a disabling shot which allowed me to move in closer and blow something else off.
If you think the Mausers are weak, take up an La5. You literally hafta make the enemy planes look like xmas trees to get them to fall apart.
-SW
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Originally posted by hblair:
While you're at it, ask RAM what the best method to engage a B26 is, while flying a Focke Wulfe.
Fast, slashing attacks from 10 or 2 o clock, never aproach from a dead six.
and if you are in a fighter formation, forget your leader's orders to aproach from the high six, go round the bomber formation and do a 10 or 2 o'clock fast attack.
If for any reason you must aproach from their six,or you dare to follow orders (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif), try to do it from their low six, most weak quadrant of the B26. IF they are multiple B26s you can be caught in a crossfire, so fire all you can and get your prettythang outta there ASAP...if you can.
AHem...hope you get the indirect, Hblair
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-01-2000).]
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Ok! Thanks for the great tips! I've flown it seriously now for about 2 days and I am already getting 3 kill sorties even had a 4 kill sortie last night. I'm having trouble against the Yak9 when he has an alt advantage. That plane is unreal in that it can turn at slow and fast speeds, and holds up E so well. All others I feel are not really a threat as long as I maintain at least 5k. Thanks!
fscott
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Oh one additional comment about the cannons. I unleashed on a Ju88 from about 600 clicks the other night. I had my convergence set to 475. I was right on his six using the 2mg and 2 cannon. I saw numerous flashes on his tail and all he got was a smoking engine before he took me out. I guess I may have hit him 20 times or more.
fscott
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Oh, FScott, forgot to say, Never fire MG and cannon linked. At lest to me they screw the aiming a lot.
I use to fire the 4 cannons only unless it is a long range shot, where I fire the MGs.
And dont be so surprised. Again, Mausers suck bigtime, get used to it, because we all have seen that there wont be any revision of their damage modelling.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
I've found that zoom climbing in the 190 mostly is useless - if the enemy has a plane with a more powerful engine, prolonging the time unnecessary to get to alt will eat away at yer e advantage. More often than not, I go for either extention or a very steep almost vertical climb followed by a hammerhead. I zoom climb now and then though.
Santa, just noticed that you posted this.
You fly mostly 190A8, I fly mostly A5. Both are great zoomers, BUT only if you start with enough E advantage. A BnZ in a fw190A8 can be kept for a quite long time if you keep the bad guy avoiding your attacks while you conserve your E.
In a Fw190A5 this can be kept even longer.
but you need a lot of E difference to start with. The 190 is a great BnZ plane, just happens that when the zoom speed is gone (250-225 IAS(, the plane is sat down on the sky. That is why when I reach 225-200IAS I pull the vertical to do the hammerhead, at those speeds you will lose any space you have won at the start of the zoom.
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In my testings, which I posted some months and weeks ago....
MG151/20 was just bit better than .50 caliber per hit (although you'll hit alot easier with .50s) and ShVAK was just tiny bit better than MG151/20.
of course hispano was somewhat super and outrated all guns from 20mm and lower calibers.
well.. I hope they do something for ShVAK and MG151/20, because those do feel really poor compared to hispanos.
yes, I do know very well that Hispano shell is more powerful than MG151/20's, but still I don't believe that difference is as much as it is right now.
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I was only kidding RAM, but now I gotta set you straight. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Fast, slashing attacks from 10 or 2 o clock, never aproach from a dead six.
Remember all those email exchanges we had? Did you or did you not approach from a dead six? Please say "no" so I can post the film. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Everyone else was bunting left and right except you, but of course you said you were doing some kind of technical maneuver, and that your death could not! be helped. It was the uber B26's fault and nothing else! That one really cracked me up.
and if you are in a fighter formation, forget your leader's orders to aproach from the high six, go round the bomber formation and do a 10 or 2 o'clock fast attack.
High six?? High six?? Is it your memory or are you just adding to the story? (I've got film of every frame of Afrika Corps) Jeeez.
If for any reason you must aproach from their six,or you dare to follow orders
Although we were in a not-so-desirable situation, killing those bombers was important to help boost the Luftwaffes score in that first frame, and I felt the risk was worth the outcome.
I don't claim to be a great Scenario CO, or even a good one for that matter, but I am smart enough to know that it is very important for all the pilots in a flight to be on the same page, to try to stick with the flight plan, even though you think your FL is making a mistake. Confusion breeds failure. Bullsh*t like leaving your flight to go help someone in another flight, while your CO is trying to regroup his guys is not acceptable either, but thats another story.
Why RAM? Why does it have to be that way? Why can't ya just admit you screwed up? I died in the same frame myself, because I fugged up, no other reason.
Not trying to be harsh RAM, you're a great pilot, just seems you have a very hard time admitting mistakes, and it's not because of your command of english either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sorry for going off topic guys, but I needed to say this.
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Now we only need RAM back in the Arena so the picture is as it was at the begining (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Cheers,
Pepe
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I must be doing something wrong, cuz when i ping a plane with 4-5(sometimes less) hits of LW 20mm, they get busted up bad.
I've been flying the 190a5(4 cannon) and p47(8 mg) lately and i think the 190 hits alot harder inside 300yds. All i need in the 190 is one good snapshot where i might need 2 or 3 in the jug.
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Hblair, is simple, you led us to a high six aproach, planning to dive under them and pop up. not a bad thing to do, but they dove to the deck and kept on running there. it was clear that a down-up six attack wasnt available, but we Still we dived on them. From six o clock.
I personally targetted the highest B26, but as soon as I saw it firing at me I pushed full stick and red outed. When I recovered vis, one or two seconds after that I found myself in the dead six of a B26 that was firing to another 190. Wat I didnt notice was that I had another two B26s firing at me from my 2 o clock and 10 o clock.
As everyone knows I think that buffs have uberguns, and I dont like to be in the six of a buff, less then in the crossfire of three.
I heard pings and instead of pulling away, I pressed on the attack ,thinking the classic "only a couple of pings more...one more second". I got the 26, but the 26 got me.
Was a stupid thing to do, and I fully take the shame and responsability on it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...but the initial set up was a six o clock attack...and I wasnt the flight leader.
I dont pretend to know the timing and if there were other enemies nearby. I was a rotte leader and I was concentrated on killing the buffs and on my wingie. Not on navigation or tactical situation.
All I know is that the initial setup was me on the six of a buff formation, and I wasnt me who put me there.
From there onwards I take full responsability of what happened (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[edit]dont read here a serious critic to your leadership. I would have done it different, you had your motives to do it this way. It is more that OK with me...
but then, please, dont come and post this:
Originally posted by hblair:
While you're at it, ask RAM what the best method to engage a B26 is, while flying a Focke Wulfe.
Because if I attacked from dead six in the AK scenario is because I started from the position where you leaded me.[/edit]
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-01-2000).]
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I have to agree Regurge.. I flew the 190 quite a bit when I was with JG2 a couple months ago and Got kills quite easily with those cannons. Like you I was firing from a range of about 300. Same for La5, 109, and any craft of similar unlethal gun damage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bane
13th TAS
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Originally posted by BaneX:
I have to agree Regurge.. I flew the 190 quite a bit when I was with JG2 a couple months ago and Got kills quite easily with those cannons. Like you I was firing from a range of about 300. Same for La5, 109, and any craft of similar unlethal gun damage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cannon damage was revised in 1.03, now the 20mm doesnt by far the damage it used to.
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Im no expert on the 190a8 but i fly it a lot heres my thoughts on questions:
1)The only time i use zoom climb is after a high speed bounce where my energy/speed far exceeds the enemy im attacking so speed isnt really relevant, the faster the better is the simple answer, as any plane you cant outrun you cant outclimb so extend read situation then zoom climb if you are clear (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
2)45 degree everytime.with 190's exceptional roll rate you can jig ack and have time to correct at last moment for bomb release.
3)Depends on sitaution, generaly for me 30-40 degrees so i still have speed or vertical if forcing overshoots etc.
4)Never use them ,as i said im no expert (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
5)n/a
6)I roll out long before stall.to be slow in 190 unless 100% sure of situation is foolish
If roping let her hang till you see enemy drop then roll out and not before :P
7)I dont understand this? Slit S as far as i knew has no loop unless you are doing 180 degree direction change.Even then you will have rolled out so not a loop.
8)I wouldnt go turning with anything slow its a bit of a shock how sluggish it gets sub 250mph
9)LW MG151 20mm 400/rpm
Hispano 20mm 600/rpm
this i assume means more rpm the better the gun?.also velocity is different but i dont know figures.
btw i have seen MG151 20mm quoted at 800rpm but it was an old book so i think it may have been wrong.But the anti-LW is my guess (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) hehe
Hazed
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 12-01-2000).]
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Just a note about Mg151/20. Try them on 190A8 (4x20), then try them on 109 (3x20) and notice the awesome difference in ROF.
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I'll say this RAM, watch yer film and you'll see the buffs were almost home when we got to em. Not time for a fantasy frt qtr angle attack.
Rear angles were all we had, so we had to take it.
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Was a stupid thing to do, and I fully take the shame and responsability on it
Now that didn't hurt did it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by hblair:
I'll say this RAM, watch yer film and you'll see the buffs were almost home when we got to em. Not time for a fantasy frt qtr angle attack.
Rear angles were all we had, so we had to take it.
never discussed that, yet you said in an ironic way that I died attacking a B26 from dead six.
And I answer that I dont use to do that, but I am not responsible that the initial set up was me in the six of a buff group.
And that is what I am saying from the start. Not many choices when you find yourself in the crossfire of three buffs, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) (well, yes, to pull out immediatly. I stayed too long and I died, my fault (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
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Last word!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)