Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: A_Clown on September 16, 2004, 01:29:55 PM
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I am absolutely disgusted with the majority of AH players. All too often I log into the MA & view the map looking for a battle to engage in. Almost always, all I can find are hordes. Either my country ( I switch alot so it makes no diff which one) is being horded, or doing the hording, most often BOTH. You horde here, we horde there, & they horde over there... Its like a big base trading mery-go-round.
It seems gone are the days when people played the game for Air Combat, Now it seems people play for points, or stats, or the joy of watching buildings pop, to see how fast them & 20 wingmen can kill 3 low defenders.
I was glad to see AH find a cure for the numbers problem, but it seems that they only changed the circumstances, & not the player mentality which was apparently the actaul cause for the game imbalance.
I dont know what the cure is, but I can say that the gameplay problem is far from over, IMO.
Summer is coming to an end, I sure hope the players bring the gameplay up a notch before winter sets in and we all spend alot more time flying.
A_Clown
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I was thinking. If we have more countries then it wont be a 20 on 3 furball because the countries would have less peeps playing. just a thought
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Originally posted by A_Clown
I am absolutely disgusted with the majority of AH players. All too often I log into the MA & view the map looking for a battle to engage in. Almost always, all I can find are hordes. Either my country ( I switch alot so it makes no diff which one) is being horded, or doing the hording, most often BOTH. You horde here, we horde there, & they horde over there... Its like a big base trading mery-go-round.
It seems gone are the days when people played the game for Air Combat, Now it seems people play for points, or stats, or the joy of watching buildings pop, to see how fast them & 20 wingmen can kill 3 low defenders.
I was glad to see AH find a cure for the numbers problem, but it seems that they only changed the circumstances, & not the player mentality which was apparently the actaul cause for the game imbalance.
I dont know what the cure is, but I can say that the gameplay problem is far from over, IMO.
Summer is coming to an end, I sure hope the players bring the gameplay up a notch before winter sets in and we all spend alot more time flying.
A_Clown
I couldn't agree with you more ... I only have 11+ hours in this tour. That is the lowest for me in almost 3 years.
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easy, reduce the negative effects of dying to an enemy pilot, and increase the negetive effects of avoiding enemy planes, as in you lose perkies if you dont shoot down or get shot down an/by a enemy plane each sortie.
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Originally posted by vorticon
easy, reduce the negative effects of dying to an enemy pilot, and increase the negetive effects of avoiding enemy planes, as in you lose perkies if you dont shoot down or get shot down an/by a enemy plane each sortie.
Wouldn't that add to the hording? It would give more of a reason to horde, so you don't die as much as you would flying without a horde.
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sorti rates, sorti rates, sorti rates.
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Originally posted by vorticon
easy, reduce the negative effects of dying to an enemy pilot, and increase the negetive effects of avoiding enemy planes, as in you lose perkies if you dont shoot down or get shot down an/by a enemy plane each sortie.
What penalty is there for dying currently? None really, you just get a new plane faster. Dying is actually the easiest way to get the most trigger time per time played. Taking away perks for a sortie with no kills would just hurt the new players, they are the ones that fail to get a kill more often that not.
Zaz
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same watermelon different day.
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Originally posted by A_Clown
I am absolutely disgusted with the majority of AH players. All too often I log into the MA & view the map looking for a battle to engage in. Almost always, all I can find are hordes. Either my country ( I switch alot so it makes no diff which one) is being horded, or doing the hording, most often BOTH. You horde here, we horde there, & they horde over there... Its like a big base trading mery-go-round.
Yep. This is caused by maps which have bases that are far apart. When bases are placed closer together, hordes are often converted to fights.
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Heaven forbid that there are safety in numbers.
There will ALWAYS been hordes, ALWAYS be vulches, ALWAYS this, and that.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
same watermelon different day.
:rofl ... Hey Morph ... what are you doing Saturday ... fancy a ride into the Big Apple ?
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IMO its a problem inherent in the gameplay. Some of the factors are untouchable, but others can be addressed.
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For one thing, as long as the MA is a warring arena, and not a Free-for-all Arena, you can't blame the people for using the most effective and ruthless tactic necessary for victory. Securing numbers advantage is THE basic of all basics in a winning strategy.
I said this many times but I'll say it again - people just have to acknowledge the fact that AH isn't the "Smallville" it used to be.
A small, friendly neighborhood where everybody knew everyone else, and people flew for pure air combat fun. That's the old days - past days. It's not gonna come back.
AH community has grown, and the chances are 90% of the hundreds of people logged on are someone you don't know. It' a big bustling land divided by feuding Chess-piece states.
There's a new objective that has settled into the gameplay - people fly AH to win as a part of their country, to lead their country to victory, by using vintage WW2 aircraft. Just enjoying it isn't enough. You have to win.
Ironically, at least for the mentality of it all, its more "realistic" than ever. It's like a real war now. You fight to obliterate the opposition, not to enjoy the fight itself. The mentality of an AH gamer, is like that of a soldier. It used to be like that of a sportsman, or a honor-bound knight, or a WWI pilot - but again that's past days. This is the present.
Basically, this part cannot be changed at all. People have to learn to live with it. Adapt to it.
.....
However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the warring states have to be pale and bland and brute-force-driven.
While the changes in the mentality of the AH gamer is the main reason behind all this, that does not mean the current system cannot be changed to accomodate the new fact to make it something more fun.
The mentality of an individual AH gamer may have changed "realistically"(at least, 'real' as in 'real war-like'), but the basic system of the game remains as it is since Day-1.
In other words, the "horde mentality" is accelerated and intensified due to the fact that the basic system is falling behind the evolution of the community and the gamer mentality.
AH MA uses an old, dated system, while the gamers are lunging forward. The discrepancies between the human factor and the system factor are beginning to show signs of large mis-match.
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What are the factors that accelerate the "horde" (or rather, the crude tactical push dependant on brute force)?
1. Fighter Realism
The game has become much more realistic. Gunnery is harder, which means shooting down planes take more time. You need to close in to more or less realistic distances to get a shot in.
Having to close in means that there's a larger chance of a dangerous reversal happening. It also means the average time needed to bring down an enemy fighter has grown longer.
The longer it takes to bring an enemy down, the longer you are exposed to danger.
Thus, naturally, speed becomes more important than ever. Using faster planes increases the chances of chasing down and catching a running enemy plane, and lowers the threat of being caught and shot down at a vulnerable moment(you can run away).
However, this advantage in speed is quickly neutralized as the MA is filled up with the same limited plane types - a new monopoly of the fastest planes(La-7, P-51D, and Fw190D-9). Since everybody is using the same planes now, the relative advantages are all neutralized, and the score is tied again.
So, if performance can no longer help. then naturally, people begin to rely on the numbers factor. If every opposition you meet is in the same planes as you are, then ofcourse, you need to bring more of your guys to win.
2. Situational Realism
Many people have been complaining that field captures were much too easy. They were absolutely right - it was too easy.
Thus, towns first emerged in AH, then, the town grew still larger in AH2.
However, while the destruction and suppression required to capture a field has grown, organizational levels of players stayed the same.
Precision jabos and well-executed attacks can reduce towns to parking lots within minutes. A2A fighters divided in the roles of field suppression(vulch) and screen-CAP(stopping enemy reinforcements and escorting goon) helps capture fields. However, this is hardly expected in the MA. Since most of the players are hardly trained, barely adequate for the job, the only sure factor to win a capture is by through brute-force.
This is a classic case of realism in one aspect, but unrealism in another aspect. The discrepancies in realism levels of requirements and individual skill, accelerated the need for the horde. Everybody sucks at lobbing bombs and doing assigned jobs. Then, there's no choice but to bring a horde of these guys.
(contd.)
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Basically, in the way I perceive it, its not necessarily the system that creates the horde. Its the unorganized, chaotic, and lazy nature of AH gamers who just love freedom but hate responsibilities, that created the horde. In other words, its our fault.
However, the system of the game should at least try to motivate people into organizing things out, so something more than brute force can be used in the game.
The more varied role for pilots there is in the game, the more different situations we may meet. In other words, the system should try to give people something to do, rather than do nothing, so whenever someone logs on he doesn't just go immediately join the largest green dar bar in the map.
The basic AH system hardly intervenes to balance and organize the arena so that war-like tactics can be utilized to bring out more dynamic and fun situations.
What I mean by this is, for example, look at Fighter Ace territorial combat. In FA, the AI system launches ground assaults in the positions it thinks it is needed, and this fact is relayed to the gamers so that they are motivated to either assist the ground assault as an attacker, or drive them back as a defender.
Now, the system itself isn't up to much(at least, I think it sucked). However, there are many such methods to motivate self-organization.
There are many ideas we can think about to reduce the inorganizational nature of AH gamers.
*Example of Ideas*
Idea #1
To reduce the horde problem the system can try to adopt a "fighter squadron" or "air force" concept. Each log in, we choose for ourselves on which of the two "fronts" to join and fight. If the pilot numbers for the two fronts becomes too lopsided, the system will try to distribute and assign players into the opposite front. This will stop people from clogging into a single front to form a gang-banging horde.
The system may calculate in certain ways to determine if things are going good or bad at a certain front - like, if a side continuously loses fields at a certain front, then the system will determine that it is losing the battle there. So, it will assign and move some of the squadrons at the another front, to come and fight at the losing front.
If a player really wants to be transferred to another front, then he will go to the Staff building in the airfield(the O'club perhaps?), and request a transfer. If he sees another player at the front he wants to go, who wants to come to your front, then you may trade places with him.
While this removes the freedom to move around anywhere from players, (which is probably subject of criticism to those guys who absolutely love AH freedom(which they only use as 'the freedom to ruin your own country' in most cases)), it does give an overall numbers balance to the fronts.
Each players at each front fights with the limited number of forces they are given with. (Although they can respawn endlessly). So, they'll have to make better use of power. It also simulates the feeling of being in a real airforce, and gives some life and color to the "War".
Idea #2
When the system sees an opportunity - when certain conditions are met - it might want to launch a GV strike, or a buff raid, or a sweep mission.
The system will notify of all the pilots in the country that it wants to launch an assault at certain point. It will need volunteers for the mission, and it will set objectives and condition perimeters;
ie.
"The HQ has decided to launch a strike to fuel refinery. 15 pilots are required in this mission. The objectives are to reach the target at 15,000 feet, start an attack, and destroy at least 50% of the fuel refinery. Successful mission will be rewarded with 30 fighter perks upon landing."
or...
"The HQ had decided to launch a GV strike to V37. 10 GV drivers are required in this mission. The objectives are to reach the enemy field and destroy at least one VH. Successful mission will be rewarded with 30 GV perks immediately upon mission completed."
This will interest the people in the opportunity to participate in organized missions with specific objectives and rewards.
Another example; the AI generated mission idea as hinted by HT, doesn't necessarily have to be exclusive in the TOD mode.
Every half an hour or so, the "HQ" deems a certain mission is necessary. It creates a fighter sweep mission in one country, and another fighter sweep mission towards the same area, in the enemy country.
Depending on mission participant numbers a certain objective and reward will be set. For instance, if 10 people participate in Rook side, and only 5 in Knight side, the Knight side requirements to be shoot only 30% of the Rook sweepers, while the Rook side will be required to sweep and shoot down all Knits. The target enemy planes will be highlighted in another color.
The MA version will lack the leadership or the evaluation phases, but it will reward the player with perks upon mission accomplished, and returned home safely.
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I don't necessarily think the above examples can be directly used in AH. Literally they are only examples. But the point is, AH MA being transformed into a large warring environment, doesn't mean we have to play the same brute-horde push everyday. New organization, incentives, AI missions, simulating military environment and conditions, etc etc... there are many ideas that can take the huge MA numbers and competitiveness to make something better out of it.
If people can't organize themselves, the system can at least try to help people experience something new, different, and fun - to make the best out of how AH is currently.
As it is, while people are so competitive, the system is so passive. However, with such great numbers in the MA, the only way to get rid of the brute-force tactics is to organize the people into an effective fighting force - and this is impossible without empowering a certain individual to become the "general". The only alternative is to let the system deal out more various situations, to increase the fun factor in the warring states.
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yup , I actually took a couple of screenshots of this in PAC time last night.
2 of us fighting a small horde of bish on one side of the map and a small horde of us fighting 2 rooks on the other side. I can only assume the bish and rooks were doing something similar somewhere else on the map.
The "fear of dying" disease seems to be spreading rapidly. People head automatically for the big green dar bar , when they should be heading for the big red dar bar.
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Kweassa,
We need a new breed of Leaders and Heros to match the evolution of the game. The bits and pieces I hear from the Rooks, their cooperation for the RJO was a solution by organization to the AH evolution.
To lead the new medocer players Old Hands need to step up and engage the imagination of the hoard. It is too easy to insulate ones self in your squad and long time freinds. AH is like the local Ice Rink. You have the Old Hand In Crowd, and then the Newbs. The country channel is few dozen freinds. It could be used to reach out to the hoard. Challenge them to follow, and then deliver monumental exploits to dassel them.
If you aggressivly reach out to the hoard and be inclusive, you have an opportunity to organize them by appealling to their self interest. If they feel like part of AH, they'll follow you around and help. If they have Heros to identify with, then they have the inspiration to improve their skills.
Or the Old Hands can be appauled with the new breed of AH' ers and long for the good old days when you asked permisson to engage.
The Game is ONLY what you make of it while you are in it!
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So you see alot of one country in one area and it's a horde? So I suppose the allied raids into germany in ww2 would be called the allied horde...maybe the war was unfair because we would send in so many planes against a few defenders (at least towards the end)
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You know, the simplest way to fix the horde problem, or at least to make hordes more fun, would be if two hordes would just get together and fight each other!
Everyone likes a 50 plane furball once in awhile, right??
I think a major reason for this problem are mission planners. Every country must have a few people that throw large missions (you know, the missions people just flock to while other missions are ignored). Why don't those people ever consider going after a tough base?
We Knights did this last night, went after A10 (a 4.5k base) on the Trinity map. It was a tough fight that took a long time, and if it weren't for the fact that we had #s we might not have taken it, but ya know what? The Rooks realized what we were up to and put up a good fight for it until we ultimately overwhelmed them. Props to FBDred for setting that one up, it was very much fun.
Once we took it, it actually felt like an accomplishment. It was certainly a nice change of pace when you consider we completely ignored it for xx hours beforehand while we went after every low, comparitively easy sea-level base...
I'm telling you, the mission planner has the ability to change this game and make it more fun! But those who have the ability to draw large numbers need to draw them to tougher, different fights! Those who can throw together a 20 plane mission should throw together different types of missions, not the same old same old. Finally, those who can command such numbers need to send the missions into areas where the mission might very well fail!
I guess what I'm trying to say is that hordes aren't necessarily the problem. It's when two hordes completely avoid each other like Redd and A_Clown have pointed out, well, that's when this game is just plain boring.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
So you see alot of one country in one area and it's a horde? So I suppose the allied raids into germany in ww2 would be called the allied horde...maybe the war was unfair because we would send in so many planes against a few defenders (at least towards the end)
Maybe just get a horde of your own together and intercept the enemy horde...
I've been accused of whining about ENY..you guys quit whining about "hordes"
It's TACTICS
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no it is just the furballers style of game play has been ever so limited now days that there really is no other viable option to hording.
BTW i agree with Del there Kweasse.
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I agree, gameplay has been absolutely awful the past 2 weeks (I was too busy the 2 weeks before that), I spend time looking at the map, and then logging again.
Kweassa, do you ever post the abridged version? Hate to say this, but I never read your posts because of the length.
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Kweasa, I think TOD will be more or less what you want MA to be. MA is just an ad lib free-for-all. TOD will have built-in organization. I think HTC made it pretty clear he has no intention of hard-coding gameplay solutions for the MA, he just provides us with the tools to make war. The form that war takes is left up to us.
Zaz
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Vudak I was there. It was fun. There is a new fan club forming around a player named Duchess. For what ever reason she is inspiring a group of pilots to hit the feilds she is attacking. On country channel she's alot of fun to BS with. I see more joking around with her and a lot less of the crap fest thats been going on.
If it was not for the push on A10 I would have gone to where she was at just to hang out for the fun BS. She's not a very good pilot, but she made a group of people feel included in something fun. None of them had to be crack jabo or fighter pilots to speak with her.
Knights could sweep the map with noobs by Squad leaders and the "golden oldies walk on waters" talking and joking with them. Every time we get a new kid in our squad, they are desparate to just talk to some one. And when you do they follow you.
You don't need to change the game so much as you need to learn human nature and how to lead people.
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We need TOD, badly.
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rgr that Vudak, was a very fun mission.
to the Rooks for putting up a good defense. Lasted quite awhile.
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Originally posted by bustr
Vudak I was there. It was fun. There is a new fan club forming around a player named Duchess. For what ever reason she is inspiring a group of pilots to hit the feilds she is attacking. On country channel she's alot of fun to BS with. I see more joking around with her and a lot less of the crap fest thats been going on.
LMAO
A bunch of men following a friendly woman around being all nice and making jokes with her.
Do you REALLY need help figuring this one out?
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Well, the days are gone that 4 or 5 players can take a base and move on, so I'd say the big group thing is here to stay.
My squad still does fighter sweeps from time to time, but usually come up empty.
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It would be great if there was a group of fiters confident enuff to go hord-busting, IMO every country should form a elite horde busting fighter group. A sort of AH SWAT team, for riot control.
I bet most of the guys that are content to fly in hordes are prolly not real hard to kill anyway. And I have seen many occasion where a confronted horde quickly retreats & moves to another milk farm. Perhaps said squad busters could simply watch the map & wait to see where the NME Horde is lifting, then move to intercept.
Granted these things will take communication & cooperation. Time will tell.
Anton
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Kweasa, I think TOD will be more or less what you want MA to be. MA is just an ad lib free-for-all. TOD will have built-in organization. I think HTC made it pretty clear he has no intention of hard-coding gameplay solutions for the MA, he just provides us with the tools to make war. The form that war takes is left up to us.
It's a delicate balance Zazen.
Most of the MA folk may not be "serious" pilots, at least in the sense that they wouldn't care less about overall realism as long as its fun. However, that doesn't mean that they like repeating meaningless horde pushes again and again.
It's kind of baffling if you think about it.
Everybody complains about the hordes and gangbangs. Yet, nobody is willing to try to organize stuff so some variety of situations appear. And its not surprising - as since this ain't the military, any kind of "organization" in the MA simply falls apart at the seams with a simple "screw you".
Is the MA really a gangbang horde fest? Well yeah, it is. But its usually self-inflicted IMO.
If there's a friendly horde in offensive, there's always an enemy horde on the offensive at the opposite front. So, all we have to do is listen to the "Help A17! It's being overrun!" plea.
All we have to do is pit our own horde against their horde - except, things don't happen this way. People just refuse to do that for some reason. Typically our horde would all go attack a poor, undefended enemy base, while totally ignoring the plea of help from the other side.
This wouldn't be problematic, except the people who do that shi* complains about the very things that they brought onto themselves. So, they don't want to organize themselves, but they want fun stuff at the same time.
The only solution it seems, is to let the system take over and organize things for us.
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DREDIOCK,
When's the last time you talked and joked with a bunch of AH "no bodies" out of the blue and had them decide to follow you around all night taking bases because they like talking specifically to you? I'm too old to follow Duchess for hormonal reasons. She's more fun to talk to than most AH' ers I meet.
Most of you old timers are too busy being the in crowd at the skating rink. It's human nature. Ceaser exploited this in his men, and they followed him anywhere. He made them all feel they were the in crowd. Old hands and the newest recruits. Duchess is irrelevent. A group followed her because of what they felt about interacting with her. Their motives dont matter, what does is they acted as a group because they liked the situation they were part of.
We all are here voluntarily, maybe 1% will be motivated to pay the dues to become a real AW'er, Warbirder, Aces Higher. The rest will be here untill it gets too frustrating or not Fun. If you want them to help the war, include them in the war. Help them like the situation they are in.
There is nothing broken in this game, it is an illusion for us to PLAY at being WW2 pilots. How you percieve the game is between your ears. We are free to choose our perception of this illusion called the game.
LAmo men...OK I guess DREDIOCK you check ID's at the door to the Ice Rink.
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Not to sound too negative, but at some point you just can't blame the game system for the way people behave. You can put in stuff to modify the reward/punishment curve to try to change people's habits, but that's not addressing the root problem.
I think there's a couple thing whcih contrinbute to it. One is the generally lower average skill level - there's just more players and it still takes the same amount of time to learn the game well. So there's "safety in numbers" and no one likes getting shot down (save for the pork'n'auger morons who don't count).
And the other is that the more people gang bang, the more they'll gang bang. That is, the more times an even fight is lost because of late-comers piling on, the less likely someone is to engage in a fight without superior odds - so that victory comes before the enemy can pile-on. (And we've all seen it when your "wingmen" dive away to turn a 4:1 into a 6:1 leaving you to deal with the 3 enemies coming in at 17K.)
The worst part is that it's so damn dull.
-DoK
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If you want to break up the horde type game play then ask HTC for a version of AW's Zone limit.
If you want the horde to change its "character" then lead by example. Whining at a horde is futile.
I too think that kweassa has described something that TOD could be like.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Maybe just get a horde of your own together and intercept the enemy horde...
I've been accused of whining about ENY..you guys quit whining about "hordes"
It's TACTICS
:lol
the difference between hording and tactics is the difference between 2 10 year olds playing chess and 2 30 year olds.
in 1 you have both sides merely blasting the other players peices to bits until they have NO back row peices left, then going in for the kill, it works, barely, and only against a similar enemy.
in the other, you have both sides moving intelligently, making smart moves, and by the end of the game, there are less than 5 peices removed from the board.
the 30 year olds gameplay will defeat the 10 year olds gameplay. and so something that can be tried by the community is obvious:
have a country who is outnumbered win, without hording. make strategic strikes, use the minimum number of players to take a lot of bases. orginize well. cause a reset a couple times and people will start cluing in, and the hordes will slowly break up.
limit the first week of the 2 week trial to the TA and DA, teach em how to fight, and teach em to love a good fight, and a good furball. furballers on both sides should "orginize" the furball between them and start er up, while annoucing where its gonna be. this does 2 things:
1. it removes the new players from the horde.
2. the "orginized" furball could interest some regular horders over, slowly eating away at the horde.
things hitech could potentially do, other than kweassas suggestions.
1. make furballs part of the "strat" to take over.
2. make level bombers a much better choice, give them targets that also help "win"
3. reduce the effectivness of jabo bombs, on things other than tanks.
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DoK
In my day job, if my associates voiced this much dissatisfaction along with such indepth and astute observations of why and how a process is broken, my VP would call an all hands meeting and voice the following.
1. Yes I can make changes based on all of your observations to make this situation better for you. But I don't work on or with your process for a living, so I would be imposeing my filtered understanding of your observations. Since the system aint broken, just not working to your satisfaction, I'm not sure if I need to impact my bottom line.
2. What has each of "YOU" personally done, besides fill my suggestion box with your observations, to make this process work to your mutual satisfaction, or at least to change it?
But then again where I work the profit margin is about $6 billion a year.
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Duchess has discovered the chat channel, it's on.
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Originally posted by kj714
Duchess has discovered the chat channel, it's on.
Wo Wo, I wish I had the horomones in this ol body to go listen. Gee golly is that girl a corker......:D Really fun to chat with.
At least she can have fun with this obviously seriously broken game....thats why I like talking to her. She makes the game fun.:aok
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I like the small fights too, and here's how we used to find them:
3 or 4 would up heavy to cap a base, first one down brings a goon.
Get to the base, drop ord on vh, start taking out ack and town.
Couple of people go down by flack, nme starts upping a few fighters. Next thing you know, if we didn't get the cap, they get the upper hand and start chasing us away from their field back toward ours.
This becomes a small furball sooner or later.
Here's the current scenario:
Knits want to take a base, so about 15 guys get together and go after it.
5 get shot down pretty quick by ack and it takes a while to get vh down so now there are about 10 vehicles on the field. Vehicles start shooting people down. Can't get a good cap so nme starts upping too. The stream of green turns into a river pretty quick.
Next thing you know it's a low alt furball and it takes 30 players, 4 hours, 5.5 beers, 10 different goon runs and 8 seperate instances of killshooter to capture the base. Getsome is convinced everything is bs, and Baba is bummed nobody follows his plan. If all the kill stealing isn't enough entertainment for ya all by itself, several players have freekin cows on range and vow to seek frontier justice and at least 1 person quits the game for good (or at least until tomorrow nite). Nobody gets a gd checksix.
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Originally posted by bustr
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2. What has each of "YOU" personally done, besides fill my suggestion box with your observations, to make this process work to your mutual satisfaction, or at least to change it?
...
I can't tell if you're trolling or if you just don't know who you're talking to.
In either event, I passed the torch many years ago. It's the people who fly 3 or 4 hours a night every night now whose behavior will set the standard.
And, in a corporate setting, if a VP had that reaction I'd know he was just copping out and wouldn't do a damn thing to improve the situation. And, in my albeit skewed view of reality, that makes him a worthless leader - it's his JOB to make his people more successful and productive. (Yeah, that kind of thinking goes reeeeal far in the 21st century, huh? All the way to Bangalore.)
-DoK
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Geez..you guys are just like a bunch of sailors..one girl shows up and all the sudden everybody goes crazy..wonder how many will switch sides just to talk to her..maybe thats how HT can balance the numbers..pathetic
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Originally posted by bustr
Vudak I was there. It was fun. There is a new fan club forming around a player named Duchess. For what ever reason she is inspiring a group of pilots to hit the feilds she is attacking. On country channel she's alot of fun to BS with. I see more joking around with her and a lot less of the crap fest thats been going on.
Ya you fellas sure do have a fan club for Duchess alright :D Poor girl should just make a post on these forums with "Answers to Commonly Asked Questions" and have Skuzzy make it a sticky note :)
Also, if my earlier post conveyed the impression that I'm "blaming" this all on mission planners, I apologize, that wasn't the intent, even though on reflection it sure seems like that's what I was saying.
What I was trying to get across is that basically a mission is a horde. "Usually" the mission goes after a target that is fairly undefended, or not likely to be a major obstacle. Now of course, this can change depending on the other side.
The thing is, such missions are usually successful. You see 7-10 pilots landing 2+ kills and another base made green. This can be a lot of fun, no doubt.
The problem is, this can also get a little old. Just look at the first 2 hours after a map changes. You inevitably have all three sides upping en masse towards a series of bases, which are more often then not, steamrolled. Of course, in a clockwise fashion, you also have the other two countries doing the same thing on another part of the map. This can be fun, for awhile...
I just really wish that someone who CAN pull together a horde would sit back and say "You know what? Just for a change let's have our mission be defensive... Just for a change how about we up Spits, FW190's, 109s, etc... Let's have the Spits tackle the lower fighters, the 109s tackle the higher fighters, and let's have the 190s go after the bombers"... This would also be a very fun mission, the only differences are, the odds would be closer to even, it would be horde vs. horde, and we wouldn't make a red base green... We would keep a green base green. But, for whatever reason, it seems like this is not what people look for nowadays?
The MA is a great place because it has endless possibilities for variety, but it really is up to us to make sure we utilize those possibilities.
Anyway, I didn't mean to insult anyone in my previous post. I'm just trying to get some creativity flowing.
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See this thread.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=119757&referrerid=7566
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I can't tell if you're trolling or if you just don't know who you're talking to.
-DoK
DoK I know who you are, I was roomates with Damn'd slider in 1987 when he and I lived in Berkeley and dialed up to Genie.
But your comment gets to some of the problem. Most of the small community that posts on this BB are the incrowd at the AH Ice Rink.
They talk about the "Hoard and prevailing mentality" as "us vs. them". Yet you folks are AH..were AW and Warbirds. Use your star power to help them. Not ask me if I know of whom I'm being impertinant to.
Where it has been lamented that Pyro and Hitech don't mingle with the fans anymore, take their place and be the stars. But that means you have to actually chat with the hoardies. Not wait to see if thay can read the manual and not crash every time they try to land.
I trust skussy to delete\lock my content if I was trolling. Rather I'm saying things you are tired of hearing and or don't want to hear. The answer is not complex tactics and months of threads. It is each of you at the personal level selling yourselves as examples of what this game really is.
By the way, in a 6$ billion dollar profit margin company, if you are getting a bonus based on the yearly profit margin, your executives are gonna ask you very hard questions if you start complaining over something that aint broke. Mine is the 3rd largest company in its sector in the U.S. It's EU presence has been rated #1 by the EU banking industry, and just bought out Fleet Boston for around 49$ billion.
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Originally posted by bustr
DoK I know who you are, I was roomates with Damn'd slider in 1987 when he and I lived in Berkeley and dialed up to Genie.
But your comment gets to some of the problem. Most of the small community that posts on this BB are the incrowd at the AH Ice Rink.
They talk about the "Hoard and prevailing mentality" as "us vs. them". Yet you folks are AH..were AW and Warbirds. Use your star power to help them. Not ask me if I know of whom I'm being impertinant to.
...
If you really know me, and what I've done for these games, you know one of the biggest driving factors for creating scenarios was that they broke down the arena politics and habits. I even write about that aspect in several places on my site. So I started fighting this trend a decade ago, devoting ungodly amounts of time to the cause. Hence your comment about me specifically stepping up is kind of misplaced.
I agree that complex missions and stuff like that isn't necessary to start enabling change. I could quickly describe just one simple shift in technique for one of the MA's dominant activities that would make a difference in the quality of play. It's actually so damn simple.
I have my own personal reasons for wanting to stay incognito in the MA for now. It has nothing to do with HTC ... it's just easier for me now. And you'll just have to respect that.
-DoK
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dokgonzo.... duchess....
hmmm both start with "d"....
coincidence?
:cool:
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Originally posted by A_Clown
I am absolutely disgusted with the majority of AH players. All too often I log into the MA & view the map looking for a battle to engage in. Almost always, all I can find are hordes. Either my country ( I switch alot so it makes no diff which one) is being horded, or doing the hording, most often BOTH. You horde here, we horde there, & they horde over there... Its like a big base trading mery-go-round.
It seems gone are the days when people played the game for Air Combat, Now it seems people play for points, or stats, or the joy of watching buildings pop, to see how fast them & 20 wingmen can kill 3 low defenders.
I was glad to see AH find a cure for the numbers problem, but it seems that they only changed the circumstances, & not the player mentality which was apparently the actaul cause for the game imbalance.
I dont know what the cure is, but I can say that the gameplay problem is far from over, IMO.
Summer is coming to an end, I sure hope the players bring the gameplay up a notch before winter sets in and we all spend alot more time flying.
A_Clown
Be sure and Stop by Wax's Panzer, he has Cheesewheels 1/2 off.
Karaya
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Originally posted by bustr
Wo Wo, I wish I had the horomones in this ol body to go listen. Gee golly is that girl a corker......:D Really fun to chat with.
At least she can have fun with this obviously seriously broken game....thats why I like talking to her. She makes the game fun.:aok
While I have yet to have had the honor of meeting/speaking to her
Im sure she's pretty cool and probably alot of fun to talk to.
Just like USA girl was. I used to enjoy talking to her also and I never made a play for her either.
But..
I know the mentality of not all but a very large portion of the online male.
Most dont flirt outright. at least not at first but eventually...
And thats what I was getting at
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With reguard to Duchess.
I made what was soppoed to be a tongue in cheek remark based on my observations of the online male when confronted with a friendly, unstuck up female.
It was ment tongue in cheek and nothing more.
Now considering She isnt here to speak out on her own behalf why dont we just cool it on the subject.
I am sure she probably wouldnt appreciate extended conversations debating her. Particularly behind her back.
Just as most players wouldnt.
And im sure she just wants to play and just have fun just like everyone one else here.
So lets just drop it right here, right now.
And just get on with how one persons fun game play is anothers dweeblike play. which is what it really boils down to.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
With reguard to Duchess.
I made what was soppoed to be a tongue in cheek remark based on my observations of the online male when confronted with a friendly, unstuck up female.
It was ment tongue in cheek and nothing more.
Now considering She isnt here to speak out on her own behalf why dont we just cool it on the subject.
I am sure she probably wouldnt appreciate extended conversations debating her. Particularly behind her back.
Just as most players wouldnt.
And im sure she just wants to play and just have fun just like everyone one else here.
So lets just drop it right here, right now.
And just get on with how one persons fun game play is anothers dweeblike play. which is what it really boils down to.
Fair enough Drediock, you chivalrous gossip-stopper you.
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She'll be on soon enough, got her login going.
She's having a blast flying with everybody.
Just to straighten out that she's REALLY a girl (for you, Hitcher)
Here she is shooting ya down:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/512_1095402932_dsc00778a.jpg)
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As far as the topic of the thread- I still think a Horde Buster squad would work well. A squad of 10 -15 guys that know how to kill AC & know how to work well together would smash most any horde the MA has sees these days.
As for that picture of the gal said to be Duchess, well that gal looks to me to have just sat in someone elses chair. I mean her grip on the equipment doesnt seem right at all, and it looks like she is so recent in the seat that she didnt even straiten the swivel to face the screen yet. But I'm not a professional photo analyst, so I could be mistaken
A Clown, your dead on target IMO, and it doesnt sound at all like a whine to me, but more like an accurate description of todays MA.
I also hope the community will fix the horde. Perhaps with organization & communication. I'll do my part, same as I always have. But I'm not real optomistic, we do have many "Air Quake" mentallity players these days
Anton
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IMO, women playing online flightsims should NEVER use a feminine callsign.
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A perfect example:
I log in tonight to see the knits have about a 10 player advantage, but I see a really good/even fight brewing around a8 and decided to stay. Anyway, the rooks start pushing hard and the fight moves in their favour numbers wise. It is, however, still a great fight because we are close to our field and can have replacements back in the fight quicker than they can.
...but, guess what happens? The knits dry up. Expand the map a little and what do we find? A milkrunning horde rolling the undefended, and vastly outnumbered, bish fields.
Things got a little bit hard and {POOF} the fight is abandoned to go slaughter some tool sheds in peace. I guess I don't get it.
Ps. I am not talking about a furball here, I am talking about a battle.
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IMO, women playing online flightsims should NEVER use a feminine callsign.
ALL Rooks should. :aok
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Originally posted by Furious
A perfect example:
I log in tonight to see the knits have about a 10 player advantage, but I see a really good/even fight brewing around a8 and decided to stay. Anyway, the rooks start pushing hard and the fight moves in their favour numbers wise. It is, however, still a great fight because we are close to our field and can have replacements back in the fight quicker than they can.
...but, guess what happens? The knits dry up. Expand the map a little and what do we find? A milkrunning horde rolling the undefended, and vastly outnumbered, bish fields.
Things got a little bit hard and {POOF} the fight is abandoned to go slaughter some tool sheds in peace. I guess I don't get it.
Ps. I am not talking about a furball here, I am talking about a battle.
I feel your pain Furball. That is why I hate HUGE maps. There is always the option to go milkrun somewhere else instead of actually fighting. People seem to equate every fight involving a full bar of each side to a furball, when they are what you describe, a full out battle, with GV's, bombers, Jabo's and CAP fighters. How going to milkrun undefended fields is more fun than that is beyond my ability to comprehend. At least on small maps there is not the option, generally, to go to some secluded portion of the map and milkrun the weaker team's undefended fields. There are only the 'battles' on small maps.
Zazen
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DoK,
I have read your passion for this way of life for years. You are to the written word of the game as Shane is to the playing of the game. But the hairy arse secrets of the game protect themselves. Those not ready will not see. All of you elite must go amungst the newbies\hoardies and share the secrets. In that way they will become your newbies and hoardies, rather than be left to their own devices to go in a direction that now you are complaining about.
WW2 the Japanese Navy airwing training program looked only for the best of the best. They had excellent pilots, but in small numbers. One reversal wiped them out. In contrast the U.S. trained large numbers to excellent but generalised standards, and had more pilots in the air. We won the War. The hard won secrets learned by a few in 1940 were passed on to the masses. Not the masses had to earn the right to be taught.
Tell them everything and show them everything. This generation will not go to a training arena. Maybe to seminars if Shane\Fester\Furball announces on CH 200 to show up in the DA in 15 to learn a quick and dirty reverse. They are not interested in suffering for the art. You have the day in your hands. But the price is changing how you have operated for the last 15 years. Shanes way of taking one every once in awhile to the DA will not impact the hoardies in the least.
You want these newbies to stay and be your kind of AH'er? Give up your short term goals and focus on them in the MA as things happen. Help them, talk to them, show them the AH right way to do things in your humble opinions in the MA. Otherwise you present your selves as a bunch of elitist distant snobs who are not interested.
Several squad leaders talking on country channel with each other about the AH ethics and reasons to a base capture, and planning the mission in real time on country channel would lift the veil of confusion. Shane dropping in on country channel after a noobie is beaten and giving up with a few positive comments is another chance to gain their buy in. Talking and walking the game on country and range channel instead of the usual watermelon will attract their attention. When you have it, stuff them full of this right way to play AH you bemoane is being lost.
Other wise, the hoardies will change the game by virtue of your own indifference.
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Originally posted by anton
As far as the topic of the thread- I still think a Horde Buster squad would work well.
Who here remembers AW's "topgunz".................
Can see it now Urchin, Fester, Shane, Hitech, Drex (etc) all in shades flying for the "Horde Busters" switching sides to target big darbars and wipping them out......................
who ya gonna call.......................
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Originally posted by kj714
She'll be on soon enough, got her login going.
She's having a blast flying with everybody.
Just to straighten out that she's REALLY a girl (for you, Hitcher)
Here she is shooting ya down:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/512_1095402932_dsc00778a.jpg)
Yowza, Yowza, Yowza, sorry squadie, couldn't stop myself. ( psst. when are we gettin more squadies like her? ) Awesome screenshot ! Dohh! I mean picture!
I hope to be back in the M A soon! Tell the other squadies I said hello! Do me a favor kick Elec1 an e-mail and tell him I still can't get Access to the Squad HQ (home page) my e-mail is RobMoilanen1@msn.com, Thanks!
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Originally posted by SlapShot
:rofl ... Hey Morph ... what are you doing Saturday ... fancy a ride into the Big Apple ?
Ride to the Big Apple eh? Call me up bro. I kinda sorta got a date hehe. :(
What are we doing? Running Drugs down to the docks? Remember what happend last time? Cops chased us for miles and we finally broke free when Icer pulled out his ghat, or was that Mars? And shot all their tires out and blocked the road long enough for us to cross the border.:D :eek:
Ok well maybe not.
hehe Yeah, if I call that number for IBM will I get you or will I get some desk lady? I'd like to go.
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Originally posted by Redd
The "fear of dying" disease seems to be spreading rapidly.
Heck, I didn't need to learn to land for a year :)
I *still* don't need to apply that technique very often... ROFL
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I feel your pain Furball. That is why I hate HUGE maps. There is always the option to go milkrun somewhere else instead of actually fighting.
Zazen, this has nothing to do with maps. It's a problem inherent in the people, that is accelerated by the system.
Remember that when the large maps made their first appearance in the MA, people liked it very much, and expected the long enlongated fronts to help spread the people out to make a less horde-driven fight. The horde problem was already here before the large maps arrived.
People seem to equate every fight involving a full bar of each side to a furball, when they are what you describe, a full out battle, with GV's, bombers, Jabo's and CAP fighters. How going to milkrun undefended fields is more fun than that is beyond my ability to comprehend.
I agree wholeheartedly.
There's always a fight in the MA. It's not the system that ruined gameplay. It's the people that ruined gameplay for themselves.
When people say "I want a good fight" they really mean "I want an easy fight". So, when people log on and see the dar readings on the map, instead of going to support the base where help is most needed, they go to the place where its LEAST needed.
Like, some of my squaddies and me start a nice medium sized furball, which doesn't effect the outcome of the war by much. However if we seem to be gaining an edge, after an hour or so, suddenly there's all these people around who abandoned their own fights, and came here to reap what they haven't sowed.
And then, when the odds are turned against us, all of those guys suddenly disappear, and go look for another easy fight.
Geez. This is exactly the reason why I think an "Airforce" or "Squad" concept is needed.
At least on small maps there is not the option, generally, to go to some secluded portion of the map and milkrun the weaker team's undefended fields. There are only the 'battles' on small maps.
Having a small map merely hides the potential problem Zazen. We need a more fundamental solution.
The bare, uncensored facts are;
Facts
* MA gamers are lazy cowards.
* They never work themselves.
* They never earn their own kill.
* All they want is easy kills.
* They don't really want a "fight". They only want a vulch.
* When enemy presence is high, people choose run away.
* When they get horded in turn, they come to the BBS and whine about how the system's porked.
* MA gamers talk and think like soldiers. But they sure don't act like soldiers.
* When MA gamers talk about "freedom" in gameplay, they usually mean the freedom to do the lamest things.
* When MA gamers complain about the "system", theyare usually complaining that the system doesn't let them do the lamest things.
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Originally posted by bustr
DoK,
I have read your passion for this way of life for years. You are to the written word of the game as Shane is to the playing of the game. But the hairy arse secrets of the game protect themselves. Those not ready will not see. All of you elite must go amungst the newbies\hoardies and share the secrets. ...
Other wise, the hoardies will change the game by virtue of your own indifference.
Just remember that what you propose turns playing AH more into work.
What I may do is ask HT to get my old "DoK" account restored and comp'd for use in events and touring the countryside. I'd keep paying for my stealth account for actual play - so it ain't like I'd be cheating anyone.
-DoK
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Too much focus on "winning the war". Either going for an undefended base, or get so many friends that any defense is meaningless = heaven for a lot of folks these days. The game is structured that way though, scoring system rewards this type of gameplay (a kill is a kill regardless of the odds and staying alive is easier in a big group) and you even get paid a perk bonus at reset.
Can't fault anyone for playing the game as designed, can you?
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This game is completely ghey now. No one fights without massive numerical advantage. Everyone are cowards.
The focus on the "war" and not air combat is ruining gameplay, and it has ALWAYS been clear that players are unable to police their own behaviour. The only way is through the game itself.
ALL other online action games have respawn time limitations to prevent ganging, not AH. Every airfield in AH should only be capable of launching a set number of planes say every 5 minutes for example, and if there is an imbalance of player numbers the respawn time can be changed to allow the weaker side to up planes more often while limiting the stronger side.
When player behaviour gets out of control the people in charge must take action.
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Originally posted by Zanth
Too much focus on "winning the war". Either going for an undefended base, or get so many friends that any defense is meaningless = heaven for a lot of folks these days. The game is structured that way though, scoring system rewards this type of gameplay (a kill is a kill regardless of the odds and staying alive is easier in a big group) and you even get paid a perk bonus at reset.
Can't fault anyone for playing the game as designed, can you?
I think that's part of it.
Lets get a bit theoretical a second ....
The other wrinkle is the "landed kills" messages. You rarely hear anyone get a wtg or thanks for an assist or clearing a 6, but you sure do when someone lands 3 or so kills. It used to be people watched the stats - I don't know if they still do - but I see the reactions online when someone lands 4 or 5 kills. That's the kind of peer approval that people look for.
Consider that two guys take off together. One lands 3 kills and gets all the wtg's. The other lands 1 kill, but did the drag on two of his wingman's kills. And his own kill was picking off someone about to nail Mr. 3-Kills when he was out of ammo and trying to break off. He goes un-noticed.
Now, for the instant-gratification crowd, it's obvious which end of the above equation they want to be on.
In the bigger picture, the fact that two pilots went up and went 4:0 is more important than who got 3 kills and who got 1. But the reward system doesn't favor the true team player - not even with recognition. So there's very little incentive for players to help each other unless they are part of a squad or have simply risen above the game system as it stands.
I mentioned this in some other thread, but what if the brag messages didn't mention player names - only the squad they belonged to? And that it mention all the kills and assists landed (i.e. "A member of the Martha Stewart Squadron landed 1 kill, 2 assists, and 1 structure destroyed.").
That's a very simple change. Maybe it would foster more squad-based play. You're better off in a squad of dweebs than flying alone.
-DoK
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Originally posted by GScholz
...
ALL other online action games have respawn time limitations to prevent ganging, not AH. Every airfield in AH should only be capable of launching a set number of planes say every 5 minutes for example, and if there is an imbalance of player numbers the respawn time can be changed to allow the weaker side to up planes more often while limiting the stronger side.
...
You have the same issue with this as with ENY ... that of when to apply the penalty. Case in point - a country is backed up to their last 8 or 9 bases when reinforcements arrive, or the enemy numbers drop, or both. With just a raw numbers-based limit, this country will likely never get out from under (they won't be able to get enough planes up to counter the nearby defenses just to retake their own bases) and may as well just wait for a reset.
In other words, before you can say what to penalize, you need to know who to penalize. And numbers alone don't tell the story.
-DoK
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I think if you unbuckled the towns from the airfields and spread them throughout the territory you could bust up hordes. Players would have to make choices between hitting/defending fields and town captures instead of having the two biggest assets together. Everyone would have to fly a distance to defend/attack and make fighter sweeps and such more viable, instead of just sitting at your base waiting on the nme to get there.
Instead of reset being won by capturing fields, it could be won by seizing all town assets.
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Quantity in the MA, currently, is far more important than Quality, hence the hordes. It's pretty simple, you can fly 1 vs 20 or 20 vs 1, most people try the former, grow tired of it, and then switch to the latter. Hence you avoid the problem and actually become part of it. Personally, I'm more than tired of trying to defend against overwhelming odds on almost every attack that arrives because I know my actions probably don't make much of a difference. Why, because there is no attrition and my attempts at defense are only promoting the same horde from returning over and over and try and pick up kills on me through sheer volume of sorties/pilots they can generate.
I really don't buy the "fear of death" arguements. Firstly, nowhere does it say you have to "fly with your hair on fire" until you die. That's the choice of the individual and honestly suits the Dueling Arena better than the MA. Secondly, half the complaints I hear/see are based on individual "A" winning angles but being unable to stop extension, hence the other person simply leaves. Guess what, that's fair. If you are at a disadvantage and your options are to press a "bad" situation or extend then most people will extend, even the ones who cry about people having a "fear of death". Lastly, from a quantity vs quality standpoint, death SHOULD mean something, if it doesn't then you are simply promoting the quantity aspect even more.
My solution, as I posted in the gameplay forum, ram all the furball/fly-till-you-die group together and give them what they want, the instant action with no death consequences area. It's the dueling arena with "scoring" I guess, either that or an isolated area of the map. That concentrates all the like minds and should provide constant action. They can never really be happy flying against guys who may try to stay alive long enough to accomplish something (ie,players who choose not to engage because they have other plans/ideas/goals).
For the strat guys, to balance it out, you are going to have to adjust the play so quality means something. One method to do that is attrition, local and personal. You want to balance success/failure to not be overly restrictive but to clearly hand advantage to the victor. Most engagements in that model would be exactly like a squad duel in the Dueling Arena, over within 1-2 minutes with clear victors (ie, you don't have to deal with constant "re-enforcements". You can argue people would be even more "timid", possibly, but someone who is not involved is also not helping their strategic situation, eventually you can usually force them to engage you (or entice them) but if they choose ultimately not to then they are just spectators and wasting their time. If you have "less skill", bring superior numbers, if you have "more skill" then you can probably make due with fewer pilots. The horde can still come but if it's defeated in the air/ground then it can't simply "come back to finish the job", it's defeated. Defense in the MA would be possible with this, not essentially hopeless like it is now. You'd likely see more defenders willing to try and overall the skill level of the average player would have to improve in order to have a chance of success. Defeated people would have to change fields, hence you also get the benefit of spreading things out (or at least rotating them around to some extent).
What this would mean, you die you move on. Doesn't matter if it's intentional (suicide) or unintentional (ya just got beat), once you die/bail/crash/etc you have to pick another location and decide what you want to do from there. Suiciding would be possible but mostly a desperate action, just like it should be, because you would know going in that it's a one-shot deal.
Two examples:
1)The other night I was running defense with 1 other guy against only 5-6 guys. They had altitude on every engagement and either were shot down or crashed while suiciding. Eventually they win as I have to land a damaged aircraft and there are no hangers up anymore to respawn and the other friendly was vulched on the re-arm pad. Kill/Death ratio for us, 24:1 but we still lost. Tell me where the fun is in that... I guess it looks good on the score page or on film, if you care. The enemy simply wore us down with superior sortie rates and fresh aircraft each time... we hung on as long as we could, I got credit for a kill on the same guy 5 times.
2)Second, last night, Rooks defending against Knits. Knits put more aircraft in the air and honestly had no coordination of effort ( I was Knit at the time). The Rooks ran a much better defense but couldn't really break out simply because they were out-numbered all evening. A to the Rooks for hanging in there but honestly they should have kicked out butts back to our base in no time had attrition been on. They beat us soundly in the air, unfortunately they couldn't sortie quite as many guys constantly as we could.
The horde/sortie rates won both those engagements even though it shouldn't.
There is a strategic attrition level also, Kweassa and Pongo have suggested it in the past, but it's a complementary idea in my opinion. The simple model of "death-and-move-on" addresses local flying at an individuals level (ie, you can only hurt yourself). The strategic attrition addresses "Resources" that could be tied into field damage, factories, etc. That would represent an airfields ability to host lots of sorties (for everyone). It would also have some impact to quantity though and hence they complement each other. The strat attrition would really lead into bombing improvements/results and control over the speed at which large groups (hordes) could actually launch and likely give more recruitment/positioning time for defenders.
-Soda
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DoKGonZo now you're talking about the "war" again. When a "country" is down to 7-8 bases they should already be reset. Actually when they're down to less than 50% of their original bases they should be reset. Resets are now lengthy drawn out affairs that are downright painful to be a part of no matter what side you're on.
By limiting the rate people spawn new airplanes you even the numbers game. If you belong to a "country" that has more players then you have to accept standing in line to get your chance of fighting. That's only fair. "Fair" is a word the holds no meaning in a game world where there are no rules or regulations. AH used to be controlled by the "honour system" since most of the players were WWII plane enthusiasts that had actually sought out this obscure little gem of a game in some dark corner of the gaming industry. Now after heavy advertising AH is filled with more general minded people and kids who often have gaming experience from other online games and that has no idea of what our old "honour system" means, and really doesn't care much either.
The "honour system" worked because the community was small, the average age was higher, and most people cared what the others though of them. If you did something the others frown upon you were told on ch1 and most of the time that was enough. Now there are so many new players that most people feel anonymous and really do not care much what others think of them, and ch1 is no more. A mistake by HTC in my opinion.
AH was ill prepared for this change in player mentality, and since HTC did not implement player control mechanisms in the game prior to the influx of new players, they are now forced to react. At first people start whining, then they stop playing, and after a while they stop paying.
When AH came out from under the rock of a close knit numerically insignificant player community and into the light of a true massively multiplayer environment they needed to be prepared for it. They weren't. What we call suicideing, hoarding, gangbanging, spawn camping, lanc-divebombing etc. is called "exploits" in other games, and other game developers have no qualms about stomping down on such behaviour by limiting their ability to "exploit" through game mechanics. They know that in the long run they are better off by stomping down on a few "sploiters" and risk losing a few of them, than let those few "sploiters" ruin the game for everyone else ... or even worse, turn everyone into "sploiters" that only get more and more frustrated since the game has now become repetitious and boring.
AH has ceased to be a simulator, and has become a game, because that is defined by the mentality of the players.
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I think in this case I am probably going agianst popular opinion.
I think part of the problem is the fields are TOO CLOSE together, all this does is encourage the conveyor belt that keeps the hoard active.
By spacing them out more the chances are a hoard won't last long after it has lost the majority of its participants.
A perfect exmaple is say an attack that went 2 sectors, goon gets shot down or the majority of its participants very rarely receives any reinforments.
I also believe the problem has been made worse by the unporkable fuel situation.
I actually think we are at a crossroads, the difference between the furballers instant action and the strategists way of thinking.
I don't believe the two styles can co-exist on the same 'Map' any longer.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
I think in this case I am probably going agianst popular opinion.
I think part of the problem is the fields are TOO CLOSE together, all this does is encourage the conveyor belt that keeps the hoard active.
By spacing them out more the chances are a hoard won't last long after it has lost the majority of its participants.
A perfect exmaple is say an attack that went 2 sectors, goon gets shot down or the majority of its participants very rarely receives any reinforments.
I also believe the problem has been made worse by the unporkable fuel situation.
I actually think we are at a crossroads, the difference between the furballers instant action and the strategists way of thinking.
I don't believe the two styles can co-exist on the same 'Map' any longer.
The conga line would probably stretch as far as it had to.
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further apart fields will still result in a conveyor belt, except now they'll have alt.
and with further apart fields defense(s) will be hampered by the time required to get there.
that's my take on that particular statement.
edit: as an aside, lately (not that i've been on much the past few weeks, but prior to then) i've been seeing much more "defensive" hording, in where a big blob of red will not venture more than a few miles from their base, even when the "green" #'s hitting that base are a trickling conveyor of many less planes.
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Originally posted by GScholz
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By limiting the rate people spawn new airplanes you even the numbers game. If you belong to a "country" that has more players then you have to accept standing in line to get your chance of fighting. That's only fair. "Fair" is a word the holds no meaning in a game world where there are no rules or regulations. AH used to be controlled by the "honour system" since most of the players were WWII plane enthusiasts that had actually sought out this obscure little gem of a game in some dark corner of the gaming industry. Now after heavy advertising AH is filled with more general minded people and kids who often have gaming experience from other online games and that has no idea of what our old "honour system" means, and really doesn't care much either.
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Yes. All too true.
But making people queue up to fly is just bad for business. I've been in HT's position, and I can take a good guess at what his answer would be. There are some ways to do this - maybe factor in ENY so it's either sit it out for 5 or 10 minutes or fly a 30+ ENY plane right now. "Gamers" will understand the concept of "rebuilding resources" to get a cool weapon again.
-DoK
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Noticed the defensive hoarding also Shane.
Never thoguht about fields further apart hampering defensive sorties to bust caps.
Hell, I give up.
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Gang Banging
Coming from AW in 2001 the first thing that struck me was that the combination of FM and GM (gunnery model) meant that for the average player "saddling" did not produce the kill as quickly or cleanly in AH as it did in AW.
Mentalities were the same in both but whilst two chasing one happened regularly in AW, in AH it was often 2, 3 or 4 chasing 1 simply because the 1 (whilst obviously hooked) took longer to despatch.
1 v 1 fights between opponents with matched packages take longer in AH and this gives more time for others to intervene.
Given this, and the reward structure (AH rewards kills, rather than shames deaths) players, whilst fighting the enemy, are competing with allies for kills.
Such competition at a micro level spreads up into the macro community behaviour.
AH Heros
AW had its hero's. They became cult figures within the AW community. They were no saints, guilty of much we see here in AH but their rep was one of supporting a "code" under which all players were equal. (even if some were more equal than others)
AH "hero's" are predominently whiners, or at least we see from their rep that this seems to be the case. At least their "code" if there is one, is not one the community wishes to follow or when it does it picks up the negative aspects because those are the only ones on offer.
Behaviour modification.
HTC can provide an environment. It can modify the environment to promote certain gameplay trends but it cannot force it. Niether can it make every one who plays "nice soldiers".
The community could be a hatefull place, full of cynicism, sarcasm, degrodation and complaint. Gutter level human interplay.
The community could be positive, motivating, reassuring and sporting, which would probably be dreadfully boring.
It is somewhere in between. But where it is in between is down to us. We dont get there by whining, we don't get there by manipulating the gameplay, we do the small things that make us part of the community we want to be a part of.
If we see stuff we really don't like we could mention it once (at the time and place it happens)without cynicism or derogation then move on.
The Horde
Was ever thus. But it is made up of individuals by definition it is leaderless, lacking a moral code. The Horde rewards individuals(or else they would leave) it binds them at a tribal level to its self. "Codes" have difficulty rising above tribalism. The tribe is the code, it will resist attack and fight critcism
But the individual will leave for better rewards , if they are on offer.
Hero's and leaders are granted the influence over the masses to develop the community on a macro level. The methodology is varied and made easier when "lesser" parts of the multitude promote the change also and promote change at a micro level. eg offerring the kill to a country man rather than competing for it.
In summary, however much the gameplay environment helps or hinders, the game play is a product (directly or indirectly) of our conduct.
Community heal thy self.
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Agreed Tilt, but somewhere along the line there must be leader to initiate the hoard.
Still think the answer is to turn the under used DA into a furballing arena, with scores etc. Return the MA to its previous DAR killing, fuel killing state, and changes to enhance the importance of strat targets.
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I am always in aw of the players who post here. For the greater part all are knowledgeable beyond myself on the game and the real life aspects of WW2 and its aircraft. Most out fly me to the point of making me a fan with envy. You have all earned your wings more so than I.
Tilt said it much less pomp(ass)ly than I. Each of you in your small actions are the change in the MA. You are the game itself. Where you lead with positive reinforcment, most will follow. The game devolved to where it is now because it got away from you.
I am firmly commited to the belief that each of you can change the direction of this game back to something better. You have to lead by example, and talk to EVERYONE, not just your squad mates and circle of freinds.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Noticed the defensive hoarding also Shane.
Never thoguht about fields further apart hampering defensive sorties to bust caps.
Hell, I give up.
I think the "defensive horde" is simply a lot of guys getting hung up fighting the first person they see that's red. 10 guys all chase 1, pretty common, it's a race to the kill but ties up 10 guys for 1 kill.
It's not facing a superior number of aircraft that I consider the "horde", its the unending re-enforcement of the same superior numbers until they overwhelm you, eventually. You watch what would happen in the MA if they didn't let you re-up from a field you already died at within the last 10 minutes (or more). Nobody would sit in the tower to wait, they'd move on or try to come back from another field. The horde would be finite and thus beatable. It would still be valid (HT has said he doesn't see a problem in localized superior numbers, it's simply smart) but I bet it wouldn't be as localized and constant as now. The superior numbers arrive, you'd get a quick and bloody battle (like a squad duel in the Dueling Arena) and the victors would control the area. Imagine, all the guys who run away because they were losing, you could chase them back to their fields and not have to worry about their already "dead" buddies upping to jump you on the way... those are the sorts of things that Attrition would add.
Attrition only has to be locally limiting though, it's on a field by field basis so you could simply move and launch somewhere else. That would, alone, spread the fights out a bit. You'd probably see less hording other than as a squad or for organized missions. Right now hordes tend to form as people simply join in where they see even or better friendly numbers and thus create the imbalance. A higher level of attrition, at a resource or country level if something complimentary but not quite the same.
-Soda
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I wonder what would happen if they eliminated all kill sortie messages and all scoring for 1 camp in AH? Would people fight more aggressive when they don’t/can’t keep track of their stats and “skill”?
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I think that's part of it.
Lets get a bit theoretical a second ....
The other wrinkle is the "landed kills" messages. You rarely hear anyone get a wtg or thanks for an assist or clearing a 6, but you sure do when someone lands 3 or so kills. It used to be people watched the stats - I don't know if they still do - but I see the reactions online when someone lands 4 or 5 kills. That's the kind of peer approval that people look for.
-DoK
I think this is spot on, at least it's something I've wondered about. Whenever I've landed large kills (which is rare) and people wtg me, I've always tried to point out what they were, like vulches, 0 alt bombers, people auguring beside me etc. Quite a few people will tell you that a kills a kill, no matter what the circumstances, which isn't an attitude that encourages skillful use of the tools available. Same with spawn camping in GVs, I just dont get it. I prefered the scrolling kill messages which racked up after each kill, I think it encouraged more aggressive behaviour.
The other thing I wondered about was when the numbers were being discussed. I think disabling the 'player landed 3 kills' messages for the team with numbers might help as I've a feeling those that fly in numbers are also those most excited by seeing their names in lights.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Yes. All too true.
But making people queue up to fly is just bad for business. I've been in HT's position, and I can take a good guess at what his answer would be. There are some ways to do this - maybe factor in ENY so it's either sit it out for 5 or 10 minutes or fly a 30+ ENY plane right now. "Gamers" will understand the concept of "rebuilding resources" to get a cool weapon again.
-DoK
I'll give you an example. Planetside is a game I've just started to play, simply because AH no longer holds much fun for me. Planetside is much like AH in the basic concept of base capture, and you have lots of vehicles, aircraft and different infantry weapons/armor. Perhaps it is more like a futuristic WWIIOL, but still.
Since I'm a newbie I die a lot, I don't know better, however if I die too frequently I get penalties of increased respawn times. If one empire has more players than another they get penalized by lower max health levels, damage, etc. while the underdog gets bonuses.
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I had one of the best flights I had in a long time, last night. Rust, Ren, and I flew to a heavily populated enemy base and engaged well beyond our number in fighters.
I didn't get alot of scalps, but the amount of enemy made the scalps I was given credit for was worth much more to me.
Kweassa, you're a good guy, please, do not start sounding like Zazen with sweaping generalizations.
Originally posted by Kweassa
Facts
* MA gamers are lazy cowards.
* They never work themselves.
* They never earn their own kill.
* All they want is easy kills.
* They don't really want a "fight". They only want a vulch.
* When enemy presence is high, people choose run away.
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
no it is just the furballers style of game play has been ever so limited now days that there really is no other viable option to hording.
How would you know? I'm a furballer and none of my options have been removed from me at all, nor have I been 'limited'. This horde mentality has been in online flight sims from the beginning, way before you were even born. You really don't have a clue and stop parroting other people and form an original thought for once.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by GScholz
I'll give you an example. Planetside is a game I've just started to play, simply because AH no longer holds much fun for me. Planetside is much like AH in the basic concept of base capture, and you have lots of vehicles, aircraft and different infantry weapons/armor. Perhaps it is more like a futuristic WWIIOL, but still.
Since I'm a newbie I die a lot, I don't know better, however if I die too frequently I get penalties of increased respawn times. If one empire has more players than another they get penalized by lower max health levels, damage, etc. while the underdog gets bonuses.
I agree in concept ... its just that the application has to be something that works out for AH and HTC. If you think there's whining now, imagine if people were forced to sit on the ground and watch (granted, a lot of 'em do this now ... but when the choice is removed, they'll whine).
And the ways people can optimize their gameplay around this also needs to be considered.
-DoK
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Originally posted by GScholz
When player behaviour gets out of control the people in charge must take action.
And look how players reacted to the ENY.
Everyone in this thread speaks with a fondness for AH that says it ain't dead nor broken. Hitech being one of the oldies may have the same faith in YOU,, the core of AH that I do. If he has to step in, will it stay the undefinable wonderful thing you've created? This game is not the binary bits, bites, and code. This game is you the community. Hitech cannot code something to compete with your own uniqness.
All of YOU created the AW, Warbirds and AH way of life. Excuse me but in the history of our modern world this has been a true extraordinairy experiment. The players made a fantasy into an admirable code of conduct, and way of life.
It is too easy to digress into statistics and formulas. DoK is right, it becomes a job to influence the newer players with the AH Code of Conduct. If you go back to conducting yourselves in the manner you want the hoardies to act, and set that as the acceptable expectation for behavior from them, enough will join this way of life.
Take it back to the basics. Each player counts the same in contributing to the sum total of the game. Shane, DoK, Tilt, or a noname Hoardie. You get back from the game what you put into it. Treat others how you wish to be treated. Make the first move and stop expecting them to live up to your unspoken standards.
Start flooding the country channels with the good old AH Code of Conduct and Chivalry.
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I wonder who is supposed to be "in charge"?
You know if you want to A2A, just get a couple of your buds and start heading toward a quiet nme base on the periphery of the main battle. Pick your airspace where you want to fight, advertise by getting your DAR going and get the base flashing, someone will rise to the challenge guaranteed. Try to hold back from ganging them, let them get up and get some e going, and voila, *dogfight*. After you shoot 'em down or vice versa, I'll bet a couple more will come along pretty quick like. Some people don't really dig the horde, do a little work yourself, build it and they will come!
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Those are good sentiments, but nothing to do with reality. The reality is that the old players are no longer the core of AH, and their most effective way of community policing has been taken away: ch1. The old guys are leaving in frustration while the new guys grow in numbers. I hardly ever see a familiar handle in the MA these days, and when I do it's just one or two, among hundreds of anonymous new guys. And when people feel anonymous there is no community spirit.
What AH once was, is no longer. What AH is now is a gem of a game that is woefully unprotected against the reality of massively multiplayer game mentality. The same problems that every other multiplayer game has had to deal with.
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Just one more thought, maybe some of the problem is the maps in that the current ones in rotation are all pretty well worn. Everyone knows the hotspots and heads right for them. You know how it is - a crowd loves a crowd.
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The maps are irrelevant, they have been changed and thinkered with for years. As long as the point of the game is to win the "war" and the players are willing to "game the game" to do it ... nothing you do to the map will change anything.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The maps are irrelevant, they have been changed and thinkered with for years. As long as the point of the game is to win the "war" and the players are willing to "game the game" to do it ... nothing you do to the map will change anything.
True, I guess thats right. I don't give as much weight to the "win the war" thing personally because it happens so infrequently. IMHO, I think it only kicks in really when one country gets down to where that goal can be realized in a relatively short time. Then everyone jumps on the reset bandwagon.
I believe that I observe the same bases getting horded on the same maps frequently, just seems to be a pattern.
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At any time I logon and look in the roster, the majority of players belong to a squad. That means as individuals thay have made a minimum commitment to being the community in AH. Flying with their squad mates they are experiencing a microcosim of the greater experience being laid six feet under by you folks post by post since AH2 released.
The squads can turn the game play around. God knows the Rooks surprised everyone. They changed the space between their ears and changed the game. Anything good is worth working for. It's never handed to you on a platter. You'd be suspect of it anyway. Hitech has created the fabric for this fanatsy universe so we can paint the picture.
The squads that are left, who are the core of AH now, can turn this around.
GScholz
Instead of listing all the reason why nothing will work to make it like it was, use that sharp mind of yours to list ways to get the squads to buy in to it, and how to get the individual Hoardies to buy in.
You cannot sell an IDEA by listing all of the reasons why it won't work. You sell it to yourself first by listing all of the reasons why it will. That presupposed you still want it to.
Do you folks ever worry that this BB is driving potential new members away? Sometimes you almost get me to doom and gloom, and donate a nail for the coffin.
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Acknowledging that there is a problem and defining what the problem is, is the first step in finding a solution. I seriously do not think there are any "lenient" ways of dealing with the mentality of online gamers. I have yet to see an online game that managed to police itself except AH of old.
I have already proposed one possible solution in this thread, and that is the implementation of spawn-time limitation to airfields. There will be whines because all players want to do exactly what they want all the time ... it is only when they grow tired of it and finds that their own gameplay choices have limited their options to do other things, that they realize how their own behaviour ruined the game.
At that point most will whine for a while, and when nothing changes because most other players haven't gotten to that point yet and still want to do "exactly what they want" they simply quit, thereby ensuring that the "exactly what they want" crowd stays in majority.
About squads: How many squads actually fly together anymore? Sure there are some, but mostly they are just loosely operated clicks that sometimes fly together when they happen to be online at the same time. How often does people post missions nowadays? Very rarely. Really, what's the point of squads or missions when 90% of the players fly together in hordes? None.
An amendment to the spawn-time limitations may be squads. To promote squad based gameplay squads should be able to take off at the same time. However then that airfield becomes unavailable for other squads for some time to avoid "gaming the game" and creating hoards of squads. That will promote the organisation of structured squads and squad vs. squad warfare while limiting the need to hoard (because the other countries can't do it either). You can still organize a big raid by joining several squads together, but they would have to take off from different airfields and form up like they did in real life. This takes time and since they don't have the luxury of immediately available replacements for their losses, the mission would have to be planned and executed in a manner that conserves resources ... staying alive. No more suicideing and reupping repeatedly.
Of course all the minor exploits in the game also needs to be fixed, like dive-bombing Lancasters and NOE B-17 raids etc.
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Just see the "Urchin" thread to see what I mean by the different mentality of the "old hands" and the new guys. Of course the thread is nicely framed with the usual BBS mindset of grown men behaving badly.
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Of course when you have a whip in place you can also dangle candy from it when you're not whipping people. Like someone mentioned (failed to find the post again ... sorry) if you have a spawn-time limit it is easy to use that to give players options of flying/driving less formidable planes/vehicles with the added carrot of reduced spawn-time waiting ... thereby creating more diversity of equipment actually in use in the arena. So if someone really needs to get back in the fight fast to help the squad or secure an objective they could perhaps just wait 30 seconds and up an early-war plane instead of waiting a couple of minutes for a late-war monster.
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GScholz,
What I care about is we have a thread that ran 2 pages and has been civillized. That means the contributers just needed a nuge to remember how much they like this game. In your own stoic way you want the game to succeed. You do have positive ideas.
I refuse to be down about the game taking a turn I\We wasn't expecting. When given lemons, make lemonaid.
Each member of a squad at one time was a lone flyer. One person talked to him/her and they liked what the heard and joined, then followed. People follow Ideas that make them feel good about themselves. These Ideas can only be transmitted person to person. Most people are afraid their Idea will be rejected and never open thier mouths to other than their closest companions if at all.
Good Ideas communicated enough times in person have a greater chance of catching on than singing to the choir on this BB.
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My problem is that my ideas can only be implemented by HTC, not the community. I know with reasonable certainty that the community will not be able to restrain itself, because it is against the nature of warfare, and human nature in general. Only by having penalties for actions deemed undesirable can a crowd of people be restrained in their actions.
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Originally posted by GScholz
My problem is that my ideas can only be implemented by HTC, not the community. I know with reasonable certainty that the community will not be able to restrain itself, because it is against the nature of warfare, and human nature in general. Only by having penalties for actions deemed undesirable can a crowd of people be restrained in their actions.
Well ... yes and no. Meaning a lot of things like what planes are available at what fields, building toughness, and a bunch of other settings are all handled in the arena config. I think some of the ideas people have mentioned could be at least partly implemented via the configs.
Maybe what's kind of needed is someone to have the role of "community manager" in the sense of keeping things in the MA a little less predictable by loading different configs once in a while to keep people off balance (not mentally ... we're already that). I think that there's so little change in the MA itself that is contributing to the problem.
This would also allow HTC to experiment with ideas ("What if we did 3 days of 1942 planes?") instead of having to try to guess right with every major upgrade.
-DoK
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OK...my account has been verifed and I can finally reply to this whole 'there's a girl on AH2?' - 'she cannot possibly know what she's doing, she's using the joystick wrong, not even holding it correctly' - 'is Duchess REALLY a GIRL?' and so forth and so on.
I find y'all EXTREMELY amusing! Guys, seriously, lighten up! It's a game! I fly so that kj714 and I have some fun playing together. I like my squaddies (PROUD to be a Dirty Fokker!) and most of the guys I've played with have been fabulous (there are those exceptions)!
I am DEFINITELY female. The pic is me, KJ took it spur of the moment last night - it was supposed to be humorous - those of you that missed that need a bit more humor in your lives. "Step away from your computers and laugh a little!" :D
There are several females on AH2. I couldn't name them at present, but they're there. We're having a little fun and enjoying the moment. I, personally, haven't made any restrictions or had any complaints on your crying or ranting, cussing and sexist comments. It's hilarious! The other gals are probably just as amused. We know that the men are the majority here.
Now, that said - I'm having a fabulous time still. I'll probably be here and there for some time - so you'll see me on occasion. I get shot down, I get back up - that's the game. If I can land a couple of my kills - that makes it a really cool day! Hehehe!
Death to all ENEMIES! See you in the air! Have fun!
Cheers!
Duchess
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welcome to the AH bbs Duchess, don't listen to most of these bloks....they all nonsense for the most part!
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Originally posted by kj714
She'll be on soon enough, got her login going.
She's having a blast flying with everybody.
Just to straighten out that she's REALLY a girl (for you, Hitcher)
Here she is shooting ya down:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/512_1095402932_dsc00778a.jpg)
DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Duchess:o :o :o :o ;) :cool: :) :o :o DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. M..u..s.t get..b.a...c.k....to...a.c.es h.i.gh.
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Lmao jet
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Hello duchess, welcome to AH & to The BBS, Congratulations to kj for finding a gal that wants to spend time with him flying. It brings back fond memories of about 7 years ago when "U" had his Gal "Khat" fly with him back in that game that us old timers came from. Yep, Thats right, there was gals flying long, long before you came to AH. Dont get me wrong here, I'm glad to see you & hope you have about 5 sisters or maybe even just good friends of similar mindset. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 Females that have been playing AH longer than me (goin on yr 4) Flossy, Silat, & Dyanna (who left AH just before AH2 was released, Im sure she will be back.)
Now again........... BACK TO THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD-
Gscholz I gotta say, I agree with you completely as to what the game was when it had a "code of honor" and what it has become since advertised on a large international scale. I also agree/hope that HTC probably didnt take into consideration that all these new players would have a more "Air Quake" mentallity & what affect that new mentality would have on the seasoned players who enjoyed the honorable play of days of old.
I dont see any quick or easy fixes, but you can count on me to be calling out hordes to undefended bases, rallying defense, switching countries to the underdog side, going truce busting & posting threads like this that get people talking about how to improve the game.
Anton/A_Clown
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Gscholz: This game is completely ghey now. No one fights without massive numerical advantage. Everyone are cowards.
The focus on the "war" and not air combat is ruining gameplay, and it has ALWAYS been clear that players are unable to police their own behaviour. The only way is through the game itself.
The focus on the war, is inevitable. It's a natural result of the MA numbers increasing to hundreds. It's the rise of "nationalism" in the MA .
Soda:My solution, as I posted in the gameplay forum, ram all the furball/fly-till-you-die group together and give them what they want, the instant action with no death consequences area. It's the dueling arena with "scoring" I guess, either that or an isolated area of the map. That concentrates all the like minds and should provide constant action. They can never really be happy flying against guys who may try to stay alive long enough to accomplish something (ie,players who choose not to engage because they have other plans/ideas/goals).
I think that is a temporary solution at best. In other words, it is isolating certain section of gameplay from the other, which is in fact admitting that there's no real solution for the things we are put up against. However, I do not believe that to be true.
Instead of taking 'furballers' and 'strat guys' granted, as irreconcilable foes, we must try to find a solution that takes both sides into account to form a consolidated type of gameplay - where both types of people have significant roles at the same area.
Gscholz:Those are good sentiments, but nothing to do with reality. The reality is that the old players are no longer the core of AH, and their most effective way of community policing has been taken away: ch1. The old guys are leaving in frustration while the new guys grow in numbers. I hardly ever see a familiar handle in the MA these days, and when I do it's just one or two, among hundreds of anonymous new guys. And when people feel anonymous there is no community spirit.
What AH once was, is no longer. What AH is now is a gem of a game that is woefully unprotected against the reality of massively multiplayer game mentality. The same problems that every other multiplayer game has had to deal with.
It is agreed, that the "vets" are no longer what they used to be.
However, that itself, is not a bad thing. "Vets" are certain sections of players who have long experiences of the game, who felt that they had a certain privilege and pride in accordance with the game. These are the guys who know HT and Pyro personally, who flew in the old WB and AH Betas, and the guys who used to be most vocal about what is right or wrong.
When the MA was "Smallville", these "Vets" were the opinion leaders who influenced the community and acted as a moral guide to what is and is not acceptable, in the MA. Often in the small, limited combat of the old MA, their skills and experience would prove as a valuable asset to a certain side. They were treated with high respect, and their opinions mattered.
They were like the nobles of the Medieval ages. The most powerful, most skilled guys in combat. They were heard, and they were privileged(at least in opinions and ideas).
Now, in the bustling new MA, the vets have lost their influential status totally - both in the community, and in combat. Not many people even know them.
They are a shadow of what they used to be, and their own skill level don't mean squat against large numbers of people.
Most vets, are hurt and frustrated by the idea that the MA isn't what it used to be. They usually fail to understand that this is a new age, new era of AH. Their ideas usually wish to pull the MA back into the days when the "vets" meant something - which is essentially a retro-idea. The old days aren't the "gem". They are just old days. It's time to try and polish a new "gem".
The new MA, bustling with hundreds of people, is here to stay. Vets should get the picture, that they aren't anything special anymore.
However, in the absence of the vets and their gameplay styles, came total confusion.
The nature of the MA will not allow a handful of people voicing their opinions to mold and shape the game into what they want. Nobody listens to such things. The only thing that can shape up the MA into an organized form of combat(where huge numbers of people are more or less efficiently used to create an all-round battlefield of various situations, instead of crammed up into a single horde), is the system - which enforces the people as an absolute power.
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People follow the principle of modern tactics in the sense that they acknowledge the importance of numbers. However, their actions are incredbily unorganized. The "horde", is the manifestation of the contradiction between organized mentality and unorganized action.
Since there is no organization or chain of command in the MA, people follow the individual code of survival - they avoid risks, and follow the opportunities. The "horde", is like a raving locust cloud in which a single element is very weak, but the whole group is almost invincible.
The behavior of the horde is almost animalistic in nature. One or two people find a good opportunity to "feed"(easy kills). And then, one by one, seeing that there is "food" there, other people flock and group to that place.
In the absence of the old way of air combat that used to exist, no new structure in MA strategy has formed yet. Thus, instead of acting like how military operations would, people act like locusts. There's nobody who takes charge and makes decisions, so everybody makes their own decisions, which aims for the same thing "feed, and survive"(get kills, don't die).
Why is there a need for "structure"?
In the old MA, people really didn't care about the "War" anyway, so no such structure was needed in the first place. There were only few people, who just liked air combat.
However, in the new MA, the numbers have increased more than two-fold, and individual mentality is set upon "nationalism". The only thing that can utilize the huge MA numbers to create something else than the animalistic horde, is by giving them a structure of battle that (at least remotely) resembles military organization.
Instead of letting the individuals group up to form a locust swarm, structure all those numbers to form a Military.
....
The "horde" is a result of "freedom of choice" that is focused on "survival", which is accelerated by "lack of organization".
Only thing that can stop the creation of the horde, is to introduce at least some kind of basic structure into the MA.
Tilt mentioned my ideas might be right for the ToD, but I disagree. I consider the ToD as something more of an "reenactment" than a true-blue game. It is essentially role-playing, and the neither the control of the war, nor the outcome of the war, is in our hands.
However, the MA is different. There's no reason that the MA cannot start to resemble the real war more closely. My ideas, were intended for the MA. Unlike the "reenactment" of the ToD, in the MA, the people will make their own choices in who wins the war in what manner. However, the MA, should have its own form of basic structure as a military force.
Since no individual has the power and authority to organize and command people, it is only fitting that the system should take the place.
That is why I support the idea of "Airforces".
Example of the "Airforce"
* the "1st Rook Airforce", stationed at the 'Knit front'
* the "2nd Rook Airforce", stationed at the 'Bish front'
* Essentially, the territory of a single country, is divided by two different airforces each with its own pilots, own bases, own TGs.
* Players of the 1st RA will not be able to use TGs, VHs and Airfields belonging to the 2nd RA.
* the 1st and 2nd RAs work independantly. They have their responsibilities to push towards a certain front only.
* Pilots of the 1st RA, will not be able to arbitrarily transfer to the 2nd RA, and vice versa.
* Pilots wanting a transfer, will have to find a pilot of the other RA, to swap places.
* The system will calculate how fast each Rook Airforce is advancing or retreating. Like may local K/D factor can be used into calculation.
* If a certain Airforce is constanly losing, it will make up new openings to receive "reinforcements" that transferred from the other Airforce. For instance, the system will announce: "10 more pilots are needed at the 2nd AF."
This is a very simple idea which can prove to be incredibly effective. People are stationed to a certain front by the system, and not allowed to take off in the fields belonging to the other Airforce.
In effect, instead of making more countries, it remains 3 countries, but uses total six independant airforces. Splitting the numbers into fronts. The two airforces in a country, work for the smae country but operate independantly.
If there are 600 people in the MA, each side with 200, each front will be popluated with limited 100 pilots, fight another 100 pilots of the opposing side. It spreads the 600 people into two fronts for each country.
Any "horde" created in this environment, will remain local - only at that front. And since for the opposing side, the people stationed at that AF are not allowed to abandon their posts. They must stop enemy horde. Like, if the 1st RA stationed at the Knit front meets the 2nd KA, and the 1st RA forms a horde.. then pilots of the 2nd KA have a duty to protect that front. They are not allowed to just pack up an leave for easy kills. So, the 2nd KA will be forced to stop the 1st RA with any means possible.
So, the "horde" in this new system will be 1/6th of its size in the current MA, and operating only at a certain front, which will face about the same number of enemies.
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Invincible?
Nah, I vinced 'em ... its all ok now.
No, really.. I dropped the whole hoard.. They weren't so tough.. I split 'em off one by one and killed em..
SO anywho, its safe to come back now... so if you've been crying for 3 months, come on back... Ol' Kurt fixed it for ya'll...
So can we quit crying like 4 month old's and enjoy the squealing GAME NOW??!!!
Jeeepers... All I want is a kill with no whine! Are you still out there?
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Its TOD Kweassa..........
It may or may not be the format HTC uses but it is not free game play.................. although the MA is not as free a form of free game play it used to be.
We can all urge HTC to do this or do that........ and some of it may or may not or only partly happen..........
but really if we want the horde effectiveness diminished (and we aint never gonna totally eliminate it)........we cannot wait and hope upon some modification to be a magic fix..................... we have to influence the Horde mentality at its base........
and we can........
we encourage.........
we motivate.............
we give as well as take............
we show its fun being "nice" soldiers.............
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Originally posted by anton
I can think of 3 Females that have been playing AH longer than me (goin on yr 4) Flossy, Silat
Silat is not a female, his name is Lew and he lives in Oregon.
just to clear things up :)
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Have you ever seen Silat in his Pink dress TC? With this High heels he is to die for. :o
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Have you ever seen Silat in his Pink dress TC? With this High heels he is to die for. :o
well, standard uniform issue for all Damned is pink tutu s Morph ;) ( and yes Silat is Damned )
does not make us females though :D ( inside joke sort of in our squad )
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Doh!!!
Thats right its a tutu.
:D
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I consider the ToD as something more of an "reenactment" than a true-blue game. It is essentially role-playing, and the neither the control of the war, nor the outcome of the war, is in our hands.
I agree.
I think a balance between structure and dynamic play is important in the MA though. You can't just "place" people onto front and say "fight here", that takes most of the dynamic aspect away. It also serves to hurt the "community" aspect of flying with friends (if you are on different fronts and have to wait to transfer)... I think that aspect of community is actually what is keeping a lot of veteran players in the game right now, not the gameplay/modeling.
Just my opinion though, I don't mind the horde, it means they've concentrated all their forces in one place, but it would be nice to be able to beat it for once.
-Soda
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Originally posted by Kweassa
...
The behavior of the horde is almost animalistic in nature. One or two people find a good opportunity to "feed"(easy kills). And then, one by one, seeing that there is "food" there, other people flock and group to that place.
...
Agreed.
I see where you're going with your idea, but any time the system "puts" people someplace, it'll be a problem. That messes up things for squads, and players lose a lot of perceived control of their gaming experience.
However ...
What if the system acted like 3 commanding generals, each with two fronts. The generals know you don't need more than 25% numberical superiority on a front to dominate it (all other things being equal), and that being 25% down on a front means you're likely to get rolled up.
In response to this anaylsis, the "general" allocates more low-ENY fighters, higher lift capacity at fields, and so on to a threatened front. This gets taken away from a stronger front - so the Horde would need to regulate itself ... the people fighting the defensive battle would scream at the Horde to move some people over already to help out. And the folks piling on to the Horde would find that they only had 2nd line planes and sometimes had to wait in line for those maybe.
For the asymetrical cases (being ganged up on or having excessive numbers) ... when you're getting ganged then the sides ganging you will be ENY'd as they have all their stuff facing only one front. Simple. If you have lots of numbers, then this system prevents you from piling it all against one country. And if you accelerate perk discounts, the peopel defending against a country with lots of players will have more technical superiority.
This way the population will be encouraged to regulate its own behavior. It won't fix the simultaneous squad night effect where one side has 50% more than any other one country, but I doubt much of anything will.
-DoK
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All valid criticism!
The point I was trying to make, is but an example of what type of ideas might be needed in the MA.
Clearly, people have gripes of it being a chaotic FFA arena. On the other hand, at the same time, they don't like it if there's too much "military-style" restriction.
Clearly, its a subject for futher thought.
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To reduce the horde problem the system can try to adopt a "fighter squadron" or "air force" concept. Each log in, we choose for ourselves on which of the two "fronts" to join and fight. If the pilot numbers for the two fronts becomes too lopsided, the system will try to distribute and assign players into the opposite front. This will stop people from clogging into a single front to form a gang-banging horde.
I think that TOD will go a long way to addressing this too IMO.
IMO...
Do away with the Chess piece countries and go with the combatant countries of WWII.
Set the planes up on a semi-historical timeline that they become available. This is modified by the number of players in each country.
The more players the slower planes are introduced or even removed.
The less players the faster the late war planes are introduced.
Have AI ground forces launch out to do base capture. Similar to Fighter Ace's Territorial Combat. This would give fighter bombers more of a role and give the tank drivers a bigger role as well. Towns/Cities should only be able to be flattenend by Buffs dumping a certain amount of ordinance on them.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
I think that TOD will go a long way to addressing this too IMO.
IMO...
Do away with the Chess piece countries and go with the combatant countries of WWII.
Set the planes up on a semi-historical timeline that they become available. This is modified by the number of players in each country.
The more players the slower planes are introduced or even removed.
The less players the faster the late war planes are introduced.
Have AI ground forces launch out to do base capture. Similar to Fighter Ace's Territorial Combat. This would give fighter bombers more of a role and give the tank drivers a bigger role as well. Towns/Cities should only be able to be flattenend by Buffs dumping a certain amount of ordinance on them.
Crumpp
Axis v. Allies will be a tough sell. Not just for political reasons, but because not all countries are well represented throughout the timeline - like, there's nothing pre-1943 for Russia. Most of the IJA stuff is either pre-41 or post-43. Rolling plane set would work, but not with historic country alignments.
Agreed on cities being immune to cannons and anything less than 500 pounders.
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Silat claimed to be female on 200 real recently. I had also heard Silat was female about 3yrs or so ago, then was told by others Silat was male. So I took the word of the horses mouth, but then again, it was in text & not on vox.........
On-Topic = I'd like to see the Hordes busted by the community & not by HTC. Many many suggestions posted in this thread can & will work. It is up to those of us who care to make a difference. Lets be on alert for these hordes, Seek them out, smack them outta the sky & force ACM upon them. I have a sneaking suspision they wont like that a bit:D .
Anton
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I converted the original whine post to Swedish chef:
I em ebsulootely deesgoosted veet zee mejureety ooff EH pleyers. Um gesh dee bork, bork! Ell tuu oofftee I lug intu zee MA & feeoo zee mep luukeeng fur a bettle-a tu ingege-a in. Bork bork bork! Elmust elveys, ell I cun feend ere-a hurdes. Um gesh dee bork, bork! Ieezeer my cuoontry ( I sveetch elut su it mekes nu deeffff vheech oone-a) is beeeng hurded, oor dueeng zee hurdeeng, must oofftee BOTH. Yuoo hurde-a here-a, ve-a hurde-a zeere-a, & zeey hurde-a oofer zeere-a... Its leeke-a a beeg bese-a tredeeng mery-gu-ruoond. Bork bork bork! It seems gune-a ere-a zee deys vhee peuple-a pleyed zee geme-a fur Eur Cumbet, Noo it seems peuple-a pley fur pueents, oor stets, oor zee juy ooff vetcheeng booeeldings pup, tu see-a hoo fest zeem & 20 veengmee cun keell 3 loo deffenders. Um gesh dee bork, bork! I ves gled tu see-a EH feend a coore-a fur zee noombers prublem, boot it seems thet zeey oonly chunged zee curcoomstunces, & nut zee pleyer menteleety vheech ves epperently zee ectool coose-a fur zee geme-a imbelunce-a. I dunt knoo vhet zee coore-a is, boot I cun sey thet zee gemepley prublem is fer frum oofer, IMO. Soommer is cumeeng tu un ind, I soore-a hupe-a zee pleyers breeng zee gemepley up a nutch beffure-a veenter sets in und ve-a ell spend elut mure-a teeme-a flyeeng. A_Cloon :D
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Axis v. Allies will be a tough sell. Not just for political reasons, but because not all countries are well represented throughout the timeline - like, there's nothing pre-1943 for Russia. Most of the IJA stuff is either pre-41 or post-43. Rolling plane set would work, but not with historic country alignments.
There are definitely holes in the plane sets that would have to be filled. Your absolutely right on the plane sets.
I think the "political reasons" is not much a factor. Surely you don't think just because someone fly's a 109 they are Fascist and Anti-Semitic? Or a La7 pilot can't wait to join the "party" and turn his neighbors over to the NKVD or send millions to their death in a purge?
Fighter Ace, a very cartoony game with a ridicules flight model, does just fine offering only country specific sides.
Warbirds with it's even worse flight model, 2D graphics, and plethora of bugs has hung on offering just a Axis vs. Allies main arena for a long time.
In fact, the only reason WB's has been able to survive is it's loyal following in the AvA Main Arena.
Historic country alignments make sense both with the market and the game.
Now there would be some whining as folks could no longer log on and fly their favorite late war Uber fighter all the time.
I think though that as folks learned that every time period had it's "uber fighter", encountered a greater variety of planes to fly, and fight a wider variety of enemies...The benefits would far outweigh the detractions.
Very few "pilots" in AH outside of the CT or scenario players, know exactly how good a fight you find in a 109E vs. a Hurricane Mk I! Some of the best fights in the game are the early/mid war match ups you rarely see in the MA.
Crumpp
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Don't bother with an axis allied setup. Save the pain, just pull the plug.
Axis allies is actually a funeral march for the death of a flightsim.
WB has axis allied and they are hangin by fingernails because of it.
Not 2 cents, a fact.
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Don't bother with an axis allied setup. Save the pain, just pull the plug.
FA has had one from the begining so hasn't Warbirds.
Warbirds (aka MUSHbirds) is failing due to its numerous bugs and silly FM.
FA is pretty successful but appeals to the "Quake" gamers. It has limited appeal to the simulation fans. And being fairly smart folks, have chosen not even to compete with HTC for the simulation market. Ask them and they will tell you flat out "We don't care if it is realistic, this is not a simulation it is a game..."
HTC is a good position to grab up the Warbirds market when it implodes.
Many of the "horde" folks would probably enjoy Fighter Ace much more so than AH. Especially if they complain "it takes longer to shoot" someone down, now. Facts are in air to air combat, seeing your opponent is half the battle. If you spot him you can counter him.
Crumpp
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don't like hordes? Come to the CT
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my chief dislikes of warbirds was the axis v. allied arena and the rotating plane set
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my chief dislikes of warbirds was the axis v. allied arena and the rotating plane set
Only reason I liked it was because of the Axis vs Allies and the rotating planeset.
I almost got a sub to it too. Then I saw the magneto switch on the 109 move up and down with the flaps..:eek:
I mentioned it and was subjected to a long disertation on how realistic Warbirds was by one of the IEN volunteers and since I was a "new guy" I should just STFU.
Then the software kept dumping my joystick set up so I had to redo it everytime I logged.
There are many folks on both sides of the fence. I for one can't wait for TOD.
Flying for a chess piece, in an arena with nothing but clouds of late war fighters, and encountering the "friendly" types on the other side, TOTALLY destoys the game IMO.
Come check out the CT on a Tuesday or Thursday night when we get missions rolling. You will have a blast. We don't have a problem with either hordes nor finding fights. I got into a 20 minute dogfight with 1 P47D11 three weeks ago in a 190A5. What a blast. We were going up canopy to canopy, stalling out, and trying to get on each others six. We would break off, merge, turn for a few minutes until one started getting the advantage and it was back up in a vertical scissors, get too low on "E", break off and do it again. I finally got lucky and took his engine out.
Crumpp
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My personal taste is for RPS but not historic country orientations.
The mid-war variants of most of the planes in AH are a lot more fun and in general more forgiving. And from a game designer's standpoint I am curious about how the MA would change if folks had to rely more on medium bombers to capture bases.
-DoK
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Silat is a lady!!!!!!?
she and i share the same sheep fantaises!
i never thought....lol
the 71 squadron RAF spitfires has a lady player. named schatzi. she rocks. one of our squaddies 'schutt's' girl.
back to the thread topic.
A gangbang is only a gangbang when one side doesnt want to join that fight.
we need smaller maps and more aggresive players.
less whining and more dying.
less stats and more fights.
less alt and more furballs.
less strat and more air-air mentality.
less whimps and more warriors!
batfink
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Silat is not a female, his name is Lew and he lives in Oregon.
just to clear things up :)
Silat only plays a female on T.V.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Silat only plays a female on T.V.
ack-ack
:mad: I hate that answer!!!
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Originally posted by A_Clown
I am absolutely disgusted with the majority of AH players. All too often I log into the MA & view the map looking for a battle to engage in. Almost always, all I can find are hordes. Either my country ( I switch alot so it makes no diff which one) is being horded, or doing the hording, most often BOTH. You horde here, we horde there, & they horde over there... Its like a big base trading mery-go-round.
It seems gone are the days when people played the game for Air Combat, Now it seems people play for points, or stats, or the joy of watching buildings pop, to see how fast them & 20 wingmen can kill 3 low defenders.
I was glad to see AH find a cure for the numbers problem, but it seems that they only changed the circumstances, & not the player mentality which was apparently the actaul cause for the game imbalance.
I dont know what the cure is, but I can say that the gameplay problem is far from over, IMO.
Summer is coming to an end, I sure hope the players bring the gameplay up a notch before winter sets in and we all spend alot more time flying.
A_Clown
The flat rate pricing plan makes the game affordable to the hordz - so hordz is what we get.
As for priorities, I had hoped that TOD would take priority over graphics, but apparently TOD could not be done before AH2. Quite frankly, I was having more fun with the crappy 2D graphics of WB c1998 than I did in AH in 2004.
Eye candy is fine, but it hardly compensates for crap gameplay. Knowing that my plane has a smart paint job won't make up for it either.
<- still in NYC, nursing a broken nose because of bumping into shop doors, which open the wrong way in the US. ;)
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Originally posted by anton
Silat claimed to be female on 200 real recently. I had also heard Silat was female about 3yrs or so ago, then was told by others Silat was male. So I took the word of the horses mouth, but then again, it was in text & not on vox.........
Silat is NOT a woman. But, he is saving up for the surgery. :D
NB
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on topic bump-
I have noticed some great horde busting of late- Great to see!
A_Clown
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Originally posted by Duchess
There are several females on AH2. I couldn't name them at present, but they're there. We're having a little fun and enjoying the moment.
Hi Duchess, glad you are enjoying AH! :) I have been playing AH and Air Warrior before it since 1998, so yes there are a few of us female players around, though I don't think there as many here as there were in AW. As I have always said (see my signature), I only fly for fun! ;)
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guess we dont REALLY want to discuss the actual topic, or so it would seem.
A_Clown
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..
Originally posted by anton
On-Topic = I'd like to see the Hordes busted by the community & not by HTC. Many many suggestions posted in this thread can & will work. It is up to those of us who care to make a difference. Lets be on alert for these hordes, Seek them out, smack them outta the sky & force ACM upon them. I have a sneaking suspision they wont like that a bit:D .
Anton
B I N G O! We have a winner!
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Originally posted by anton
Silat claimed to be female on 200 real recently. I had also heard Silat was female about 3yrs or so ago, then was told by others Silat was male. So I took the word of the horses mouth, but then again, it was in text & not on vox.........
Anton
How funny. That joke has been floating around since Silat first showed up in the AW Training arena years ago lol. Heck, I was drawn in and called the poor guy "ma'am" about 3 times before I got corrected (and red-faced). Spent the next 3 weeks apologizing every time I ran into him. Nice to see he hasnt changed any. :D
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Silat is definitely male - I have seen his picture. ;)
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I agree, the horde has been confronted by horde busters & we have been succesful in turning them away. And in some cases an actual battle has formed. 8)
who ya gonna call?
WHORDE BUSTERS!!!
A_Clown
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Originally posted by anton
It would be great if there was a group of fiters confident enuff to go hord-busting, IMO every country should form a elite horde busting fighter group. A sort of AH SWAT team, for riot control.
I bet most of the guys that are content to fly in hordes are prolly not real hard to kill anyway. And I have seen many occasion where a confronted horde quickly retreats & moves to another milk farm. Perhaps said squad busters could simply watch the map & wait to see where the NME Horde is lifting, then move to intercept.
Granted these things will take communication & cooperation. Time will tell.
Anton
Had to go searching to see how far back I actually had this idea....
Has anything changed in the months I've been away?
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Originally posted by anton
As far as the topic of the thread- I still think a Horde Buster squad would work well. A squad of 10 -15 guys that know how to kill AC & know how to work well together would smash most any horde the MA has sees these days.
As for that picture of the gal said to be Duchess, well that gal looks to me to have just sat in someone elses chair. I mean her grip on the equipment doesnt seem right at all, and it looks like she is so recent in the seat that she didnt even straiten the swivel to face the screen yet. But I'm not a professional photo analyst, so I could be mistaken
A Clown, your dead on target IMO, and it doesnt sound at all like a whine to me, but more like an accurate description of todays MA.
I also hope the community will fix the horde. Perhaps with organization & communication. I'll do my part, same as I always have. But I'm not real optomistic, we do have many "Air Quake" mentallity players these days
Anton
I'll stop looking now..... im getting sleepy anyway
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
same watermelon different day.
SSDD