Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wanker on September 17, 2004, 09:13:57 AM
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This is how a crowd of Republicans treated the mother of a man who gave everything for his country.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/09/17/bush.protester/index.html
HAMILTON, New Jersey (CNN) -- The mother of a soldier killed in Iraq was arrested Thursday after interrupting a campaign speech by first lady Laura Bush. As police hauled her away, she shouted, "Police brutality." Wearing a T-shirt with the message "President Bush You Killed My Son," Sue Niederer of nearby Hopewell screamed questions at the first lady as the audience tried to drown her out by chanting, "Four more years! Four more years!" She pressed on, refused to leave and eventually police removed her from the firehouse rally. The first lady finished her speech, praising the administration's achievements in the war on terror and the economy. utside, Niederer said she wanted to ask Laura Bush "Why the senators, the legislators, the congressmen, why aren't their children serving?" She went on to blame the president for the death of her 24-year-old son, Army First Lieutenant Seth Dvorin. He was killed while trying to defuse a roadside bomb that exploded on him. "My son was in the Army, and he was killed February third this year," she said.
As the Hamilton police and Secret Service agents surrounded her and reporters pressed her with questions, she held her ground, claiming "I had my ticket" to attend the speech by the first lady. Police subsequently handcuffed her and she was led away to a nearby van. As she was escorted, she repeatedly shouted "Police brutality" and demanded to know her rights and the charges. Later, she was charged with defiant trespass and released.
Since her son's death, the bereaved mother has spoken out repeatedly against the ongoing Iraq conflict. She is active in an anti-war protest group, Military Families Speak Out. The Pittsburgh Independent Media Center reports she recently participated in demonstrations around the Republican National Convention in New York.
In March, The Toronto Star placed her outside Walter Reed Army Hospital in Washington, D.C. where many of the wounded soldiers are treated; Dover Air Force base where soldier remains arrive; and shouting at Secretary of State Colin Powell's motorcade after a speech at Princeton University. Neither the Bush campaign nor the Hamilton Police would comment on the incident.
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When are these family members gonna stop dishonoring the memories of their loved ones? Everybody over there VOLUNTEERED for the military...anyone who joins knows the risk involved..and it was their choice.
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Flame bait
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I feel sorry for the mother's loss, but I also feel that she is dishonoring the memory of her son.
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You must have had a son killed in the service of your country to pass judgement on her like that. My condolences.
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I looked up her son 2nd Lt. Seth Dvorin ..he graduated from Rutgers in 2002...there was much talk about going to iraq back then...I was on deployment at the time and was afraid we'd get extended for it (not afraid for my life..we Navy guys are relatively safe)...He had to have known that joining up at that time he would have a great chance of going over there...Makes me think he was a supported of the idea to still join knowing Iraq was about to happen...Therefore she dishonors him and what he believd in.
I do feel sorry for the loss...but you can't blame the president for a choice the boy made on his own.
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Flame bait
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So you haven't walked even one yard in her shoes.
Benefit of doubt given... and rescinded.
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I feel for her loss...and agree she has a right to protest...but inside an organized rally...disrupting someones speech..hell it wasn't even George she was interuppting...It was Laura..how does that make sense? Laura didn't start the war.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
I feel for her loss...and agree she has a right to protest...but inside an organized rally...disrupting someones speech..hell it wasn't even George she was interuppting...It was Laura..how does that make sense? Laura didn't start the war.
Saddam did.
And do you think for a second the son would be happy about what his mother is doing?
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Originally posted by banana
"Bad mother, you dishonor your son. You should be proud to have given a son for the fatherl...er, I mean this country. Now, go away and grieve where nobody can hear you, we have an election to win this November."
banana,
I disagree with that. I truly feel sorry for her loss. I also feel that she is wrong for appearing at a rally as such and trying to cause a disturbance. I do not feel she should run and hide in private, but I do feel that she chose the wrong venue to start an attack. She chose the poor avenue of approach, to topp it off with disturbing the first lady's speech. That is flat out wrong, she new it, and also knew she would get press coverage doing it.
So, who is really exploiting who here? The woman? Or is it the anti-war group she is a member of? I think, in the end, the anti-war group is most responsible for dishonoring those that volunteeered to go to Iraq. They died doing what they believed in, not to further any parties political agenda.
My $ .02...
btw, does this mean my extension is void now?
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Certainly the woman has the right to express her grief and blame whoever she wants. I think there is probably nothing harder in this life than losing a child. Still, folks have the right to order at events like this too.
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Originally posted by Muckmaw1
Saddam did.
Oh? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Muckmaw1
Saddam did.
And do you think for a second the son would be happy about what his mother is doing?
No..and that was part of the point I was trying to make...but it's wasted on some of these guys.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
banana,
I disagree with that. I truly feel sorry for her loss. I also feel that she is wrong for appearing at a rally as such and trying to cause a disturbance. I do not feel she should run and hide in private, but I do feel that she chose the wrong venue to start an attack. She chose the poor avenue of approach, to topp it off with disturbing the first lady's speech. That is flat out wrong, she new it, and also knew she would get press coverage doing it.
So, who is really exploiting who here? The woman? Or is it the anti-war group she is a member of? I think, in the end, the anti-war group is most responsible for dishonoring those that volunteeered to go to Iraq. They died doing what they believed in, not to further any parties political agenda.
My $ .02...
btw, does this mean my extension is void now?
Bodhi :)
No, your extension is still valid. This is just a debate among friends.
Now, as to your arguments.....
I will grant that making a spectacle of yourself at a public speech is not the most politically correct thing to do. On the other hand, though, how many audiences with bereaved parents or wives of deceased soldiers is President Bush granting? None? I thought so.
How else is the woman going to get attention from the administration? By sending a polite email and requesting an audience?
The point is.....she lost a son, and wants some answers to some tough questions. The Republicans don't want to acknowledge the loss of life during the re-election campaign, because it's bad for vote garnering.
I would argue that instead of DIShonoring her son, she is honoring him by keeping his memory alive, and by demanding that his President, who sent him into battle, be held accountable.
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Off topic
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Originally posted by banana
Bodhi :)
No, your extension is still valid. This is just a debate among friends.
Now, as to your arguments.....
I will grant that making a spectacle of yourself at a public speech is not the most politically correct thing to do. On the other hand, though, how many audiences with bereaved parents or wives of deceased soldiers is President Bush granting? None? I thought so.
How else is the woman going to get attention from the administration? By sending a polite email and requesting an audience?
The point is.....she lost a son, and wants some answers to some tough questions. The Republicans don't want to acknowledge the loss of life during the re-election campaign, because it's bad for vote garnering.
I would argue that instead of DIShonoring her son, she is honoring him by keeping his memory alive, and by demanding that his President, who sent him into battle, be held accountable.
I agree, to some of the points, but I disagree that there are no parents or family members at any of the rallys who have lost loved ones. As you know I live in Colorado. While I was unable to go, some friends went to Bush's appearence in Denver, with a man whose son was killed in Iraq. He still supports the president. He is devastated over the loss of his son, but also realises that his son died doing what he believed in, so.... to say that all parents who have lost children do not believe in the cause in Iraq is wrong. Some look at it differently, and try to make bigger issues.
I am sorry the lady lost her son, but she is going about it the wrong way. Hell, there are plenty of CBS reporters that would love a chance to help swing the election, why not call them?
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Originally posted by Bodhi
I agree, to some of the points, but I disagree that there are no parents or family members at any of the rallys who have lost loved ones. As you know I live in Colorado. While I was unable to go, some friends went to Bush's appearence in Denver, with a man whose son was killed in Iraq. He still supports the president. He is devastated over the loss of his son, but also realises that his son died doing what he believed in, so.... to say that all parents who have lost children do not believe in the cause in Iraq is wrong. Some look at it differently, and try to make bigger issues.
I am sorry the lady lost her son, but she is going about it the wrong way. Hell, there are plenty of CBS reporters that would love a chance to help swing the election, why not call them?
Bodhi, I never said that every parent of deceased soldiers doesn't believe in the Iraqi war. Some do, some don't. And who are we to tell them how they are to grieve?
I'm still waiting to hear how you Republicans feel about the crowd shouting down this woman. Doesn't sound like compassionate conservatism to me.
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Originally posted by banana
Bodhi, I never said that every parent of deceased soldiers doesn't believe in the Iraqi war. Some do, some don't. And who are we to tell them how they are to grieve?
I'm still waiting to hear how you Republicans feel about the crowd shouting down this woman. Doesn't sound like compassionate conservatism to me.
Without having been there I don't know how to feel. Was she allowed to have her say before they drowned her out? Did she go on and on in an attempt to disrupt the speech? How much vitriol was directed at Bush? Was it clear to anyone that she had lost her son in Iraq? Lotta questions CNN doesn't answer.
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Originally posted by banana
I'm still waiting to hear how you Republicans feel about the crowd shouting down this woman. Doesn't sound like compassionate conservatism to me.
I think it was wrong.
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We have a volunteer service. Parents don't have a say in what their children decide to do. Her son chose to serve his country. You'd think she'd respect that. Her grief is overwhelming her common sense.
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Originally posted by Martlet
We have a volunteer service. Parents don't have a say in what their children decide to do. Her son chose to serve his country. You'd think she'd respect that. Her grief is overwhelming her common sense.
That is the point I was trying to make..in addition by blaming the president and the war she dishonors what he belived he was fighting for.
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these poor people who four express themselves as they experience grief more must be understood as being out of their normal years frame of mind.
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Originally posted by Yeager
these poor people who four express themselves as they experience grief more must be understood as being out of their normal years frame of mind.
At first I thought you must have been drunk...but I get it now:rofl
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On the contrary Yeager. I believe they are in a very normal frame of mind. IMO it's people who think they know as fact what she or her son felt, thought and believed in who are not.
The same kind of "people" who have some gall to tell her what an honor she had in having her sons brains smattered all over a dirt ally in a barbaric, backwards country like Iraq fighting for.....(fill in with the excuse "du jour")... are definitely not.
(p.s. have not seen anyone do something like this for a son lost in Afghanistan. Why do you think..... ?)
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Originally posted by Martlet
We have a volunteer service. Parents don't have a say in what their children decide to do. Her son chose to serve his country. You'd think she'd respect that. Her grief is overwhelming her common sense.
I'd haveto agree with that. and isnt the job of diffusing bombs and mines something you also volounteer for.
Somehow I dont think they issue that kind of duty at random.
I kinda understand her greif or at least I've seen it.
I lost my oldest and best friend last year when he was decapitated by a car. While crossing a highway in poor light condidions
Now I dont see the driver being at fault inasmuch as he My friend) was trashed drunk and decided to walk down the road in the drivers lane during a green light.
Now I myself have almost hit people on this streatch of road as because fo the way its lit and with oncomming traffic you dont see anyone walking untill your right on top of them.
His sister doesnt agree. And only knows her brother is dead and so there must be someone to blame. And it cant be him even though in reality it was him.
A poor comparison I know But what im getting at is misplaced anger. Her son is dead. It cant be an accident someone has to be blamed for it.
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Her response is based on the cause for which her son died, or lack of therefore.
Had he died in a just war, such as WWII, I'm sure she would be proud of his sacrifice.
While it is true that service members expect that they might die while in, there is also an understanding, one which US military proudly bears on the forefront, that soldiers lifes will not be thrown away.
Her son's was.
Hence she's pissed.
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Originally posted by fd ski
Her response is based on the cause for which her son died, or lack of therefore.
Had he died in a just war, such as WWII, I'm sure she would be proud of his sacrifice.
While it is true that service members expect that they might die while in, there is also an understanding, one which US military proudly bears on the forefront, that soldiers lifes will not be thrown away.
Her son's was.
Hence she's pissed.
That's just crap.
Her son died in the war on terror. You think that's a waste. Her son apparently didn't.
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Originally posted by fd ski
Her response is based on the cause for which her son died, or lack of therefore.
Had he died in a just war, such as WWII, I'm sure she would be proud of his sacrifice.
Alot of Americans thought we should stay out of WWII at the time.
How do you know she would not have been one of them?
Hindsight is always 20/20.
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Originally posted by fd ski
While it is true that service members expect that they might die while in, there is also an understanding, one which US military proudly bears on the forefront, that soldiers lifes will not be thrown away.
Her son's was.
Tell that to the 24 million people he helped free.
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Originally posted by Martlet
That's just crap.
Her son died in the war on terror. You think that's a waste. Her son apparently didn't.
How do you know what the son thought?
And why do you always assume that every serviceman who dies, would feel that they died for a good cause?
That's a little beyond wishful thinking.
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Originally posted by banana
How do you know what the son thought?
And why do you always assume that every serviceman who dies, would feel that they died for a good cause?
That's a little beyond wishful thinking.
Obviously he didn't feel so strongly against it that he left the service. He was there fighting.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Obviously he didn't feel so strongly against it that he left the service. He was there fighting.
That's news to me, I didn't realize you could leave the service any old time you wanted to.
:rofl
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Her son volunteered when there was already a good chance that we were going in Iraq. He knew what he was getting into and VOLUNTEERED. God bless him for his sacrifice. The mother has every right to grieve, even protest, but she chose the venue unwisely(perhaps her judgement was clouded by grief and who can blame her for that?)
I don't like that she was shouted down. She should have been treated with respect by all in attendance then asked to leave for disrupting the event.
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You guys should really stop making up stuff to suit your pov.
Here's the truth.
http://www.counterpunch.org/weill05222004.html
"you could leave the service any old time you wanted to"
lol. banana? You didn't know you can if you have the right political connections and want to shill for Congressmen in Alabama?
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The woman was irrational regardless of how sympathetic you may feel. There are a 1000 ways she could express herself.
She's been running about the country making a fool of herself. If she feels her son died for nothing that’s all on her. He volunteered and did his duty. He was not ripped from her arms and sent to war.
I wouldn't tolerate her screaming at me. If it’s some sort of therapy for her to do so then I would refer her to mental health facility. Don't act as if every Rep at that rally knew who she was. Any kook could slip in and pull the same thing. I would have shouted her down as well.
We can all try to understand her emotions and be sensitive of her loss but we don't need to excuse her behavior.
GWB didn't kill her son.
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Originally posted by Westy
You guys should really stop making up stuff to suit your pov.
Here's the truth.
http://www.counterpunch.org/weill05222004.html
"you could leave the service any old time you wanted to"
lol. banana? You didn't know you can if you have the right political connections and want to shill for Congressmen in Alabama?
Westy that interview is not "fact". It is the opinion of emotionally unstable woman.
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Originally posted by banana
That's news to me, I didn't realize you could leave the service any old time you wanted to.
:rofl
It seems like a lot is news to you. There are 2 soldiers from Rista getting out within the month.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Westy that interview is not "fact". It is the opinion of emotionally unstable woman.
Written by the same guy who wrote the book:
"Imperial Crusades: Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia"
Yes, there's an unbiased source.
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Wotan her interview is much closer the FACTs than you, Martlet, Muckmaw or Steve will ever remotely get.
Discredit her and the source who interviewed her all you want. It's is the fashionable "righty" thing to do after all. Realise thought you are still making up "facts" when you say he knowingly and heroically gave his life for the war on terror.
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Westy, all I said was the guy Volunteered. As a graduate of rutgers, he had to be reasonably intelligent and aware of the troubles in the middle East. where am I the least bit accurate in my "facts"?
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Steve you implied the guy knew what he was getting into and that he made a sacrafice of himself. What he "got" was a line of bull from the recruiter and ended up in IRaq trying to defuse a bomb when his training was anti-air artilleray.
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Steve you implied the guy knew what he was getting into
I'm not implying it, I'm saying it.
He was an intelligent man, had to be as a graduate of Rutgers. Are you saying he was oblivious to the risks in volunteering at such a volatile time?
You are going off topic a bit though, let me expound. The woman was shouted down for her protests, I think this was in poor taste. I wish she would have been treated with as much respect as was practical.
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I know the facts; emotional unstable mother can't come to grips with the loss of her son so she lashes out and attempts to fix blame on anything she can. People die everyday and lots of loved ones follow this same pattern. She doesn’t need to be exploited for political purposes, she needs mental help.
Those folks at that rally didn’t know who she was or her situation. They saw a kook ranting and shouted her down.
"The recruiter lied to my son..."
Join the Army during war time expect to see some combat.
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I agree on your point that it was in poor taste how she got shouted down but she also had chose the wrong venue, GOP rally, to scream questions at Laura Bush.
As for being a Rutgers grad and "knowing" what he was getting into? Since when did college mean one had common sense or street smarts. I repeat. He was fed a line of bull**** by the recruiter. Label him gulllible if anything.
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Originally posted by banana
I'm still waiting to hear how you Republicans feel about the crowd shouting down this woman. Doesn't sound like compassionate conservatism to me.
banana,
This is a pretty hard issue when you really think about it. How many of the attendees could really hear what she (the mother suffering the loss) was saying? My guess (and just a guess as I wasn't there) is that they only noticed somebody creating a commotion and responded in accordance. Keep in mind, the attendees were probably paying attention to Mrs. Bush as she was the one they were there to see, so they may not have heard what the protester was saying, just that she was yelling about something. If I had been there & heard her shouts without knowing what she was saying, I probably would have responded the same as the rest of the attendees. Not a lack of compassion, but rather a reflex based on past situations where people improperly expressed their views.
I'm truly sorry for her loss and hope she is given a chance to PROPERLY express her grievances in public and with the Bush Administration.
Glove
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Originally posted by Westy
Discredit her and the source who interviewed her all you want. It's is the fashionable "righty" thing to do
A tactic the left is no less guilty of.
that "Fashion" is worn well by both sides
He could have filed for conscientious objector status even without political connections.
My uncle did it during Nam and got out
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The source for the "line bull fed from a recruiter" comes from the emotional unstable mother. When you enlist you sign a contract. You also sign waver saying that any no promises were made beyond what is contained in the contract. He knew at the time he was asked to sign that contract exactly what he was getting into.
It doesn't matter what the recruiter may have said after that point.
The only fact you have on what he was trained for comes from the emotionally unstable mother. You haven’t posted any "fact" at all. The fact is her son signed up and joined willingly. Why he joined or what he expected when he joined won't ever be known because he is dead.
The woman admits to being "anti-war" to begin with and her son may have just fed her "a line of bull" about his motivations just to keep her off his back. I can speculate just like you can.
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"A tactic the left is no less guilty of. That "Fashion" is worn well by both sides"
Both sides smear for sure. But the "right" has taken it to a new, infamous dark art form in the last 10 years.
As for Conscientious Objector status? He could have. We'll never know why he did not. But have any idea how long it takes for that process to run? He was long dead before it would have been 1/2 way thru the process had he even submitted the paperwork.
Google "conscientious objector" and you'll see what I mean. There are soldiers who have gone for it. They do not get sent elsewhere nor do they get yanked off the front lines when they do.
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Originally posted by Westy
As for being a Rutgers grad and "knowing" what he was getting into? Since when did college mean one had common sense or street smarts. I repeat. He was fed a line of bull**** by the recruiter. Label him gulllible if anything.
Gullabe?
You've got to be kidding me.
They don't teach you how to sew in the military. They teach you how to shoot. And they teach you how to kill.
This guy had to know he might be expected to fight in the US FRIGGIN MILITARY in a post 9/11 world.
If he was too ignorant to realize this, he would have been too stupid to spell his own name on the contract
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"I can speculate just like you can."
No speculation here. I'm refering to remarks made by the person closest to him, his mother. You're discrediting her interview and comments based on your unproffessinal evaluation of her state of mind in order to suit your pov. That's the simple truth to it.
Out of curiosity Wotan, how many children do you have?
"If he was too ignorant to realize this, he would have been too stupid to spell his own name on the contract "
Ahhh. the ole VOSS defense where the victim deserved what they got. WTG !
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Originally posted by Westy
Ahhh. the ole VOSS defense where the victim deserved what they got. WTG !
Oh Come on, you can do better than that.
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Oh wow news, a mother is upset her son was killed.
I would hope any mother would be, heck I am saddened by the loss, but I could say that about all the troops killed in WW2.
My Grandmother was very angry and hurt by the loss of her brother over Frankfurt in 44.
But her son must have felt different or he would not have been there.
Why must everything be about Politics?
So she went to a political rally with the intent of pushing her agenda by using her dead son as a tool (without his permission).
Do you think this is right??
She was wrong IMO
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As for being a Rutgers grad and "knowing" what he was getting into? Since when did college mean one had common sense or street smarts. I repeat. He was fed a line of bull**** by the recruiter. Label him gulllible if anything.
Pure speculation on your part. Are you another lib that forgets how to read depending on the point you are trying to make?
She is emotionally unstable; anyone that needs to get dragged out of a place for acting out is irrational. She has pattern of behavior that demonstrates this. This wasn't her 1st "protest".
How many children I have is of no consequence to the discussion at hand. You are just trying to side track the discussion.
banana portrays those evil Repubs as mean bullies ganging up on a poor mother of a dead soldier. That is what this thread is about. No one there knew who she was. She was just some kook acting out.
I can post a link to story of a mother of a dead soldier being harassed by left wing nuts at a supposedly "remember the fallen rally" in Texas. According to that mother her son was called baby killer and she was yelled at and spit at by kooks. All she did was show up.
Regardless of why the guy volunteered he did. You can speculate on how gullible he was or how easy he bought the recruiters lies but as some one who recalls his enlistment I knew exactly what I was getting into. There were no surprises.
GWB didn't kill her son.
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Originally posted by Westy
"I can speculate just like you can."
No speculation here. I'm refering to remarks made by the person closest to him, his mother. You're discrediting her interview and comments based on your unproffessinal evaluation of her state of mind in order to suit your pov. That's the simple truth to it.
Out of curiosity Wotan, how many children do you have?
"If he was too ignorant to realize this, he would have been too stupid to spell his own name on the contract "
Ahhh. the ole VOSS defense where the victim deserved what they got. WTG !
I think I can add a different view here. I have a son in the 10th Mtn. Div. He joined the army post 9/11. Did I try to talk him out of it? You bet your a** I did. He pretty much told me, "dad, I understand your point, but this is what I want to do. I am aware of the possible consequences, however, I'm going to do this."
I hope and pray nothing happens to him but I don't think I would lay blame on anyone other than myself for not trying harder to talk him out of it.
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Is college education and the chance to see the world worth the risk of dieing in combat? You bet it is.
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No speculation here. The guy enlisted to help with his bills and advance his potential future carreer in the CIA/FBI and his mother heard what was being dished to him by the recruiter. They all bought it and just because you weren't hoodwinked by a recruiter doesn't make people who were less intellegent. Hence the "gullible" comment. I at least give the kid credit for trusting in people andnot being dumb. If that is speculation so be it. It's far less than you and the others here who try to literally make him out to be another Private Jessica.
And yes having children is important IMO as it's the vital ingrediant to understanding how a parent thinks and feels. Otherwise a non-parents "expert" opinion is like that of the celibate priest who lectures others on what marriage and sex are al about.
Nothing you've said has caused me to change my pov but in fact you've helped strengthened it. Thank you.
"GWB didn't kill her son."
Of course Bush didn't place the bomb in the road that killed him.
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"I hope and pray nothing happens to him "
Me too Apache. Sincerely I do.
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The sympathy and understanding here is amazing.
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Didn't this exact same thing happen to the mother of a fallen soldier that went to an anti-bush rally? AH thread on it (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130202)
I can't believe you guys are so screwed up that you can't see these threads for what they are. I can't believe people are actually arguing the merrit of the news stories and condemning/praising people they know absolutely nothing about because of it.
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Chanting 4 more years isn't quite the same as telling a mother that her son was a baby killer and died for nothing.
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"Chanting 4 more years isn't quite the same as telling a mother that her son ... died for nothing."
IMO yes it is. And both groups were rude, thoughtless and despicable. More so for the Dallas anti-war protest group who took advantage of a family in grief.
As for "was a baby killer " part that is pure b.s. and injected by you for reasons only you can say. I looked at that article several times and no where did I find where anyone said to that mother her son was a baby killer.
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Originally posted by Muckmaw1
Written by the same guy who wrote the book:
"Imperial Crusades: Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia"
Yes, there's an unbiased source.
Elizabeth Weill-Greenberg is a guy?
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Originally posted by Westy
"Chanting 4 more years isn't quite the same as telling a mother that her son ... died for nothing."
IMO yes it is. And both groups were rude, thoughtless and despicable. More so for the Dallas anti-war protest group who took advantage of a family in grief.
As for "was a baby killer " part that is pure b.s. and injected by you for reasons only you can say. I looked at that article several times and no where did I find where anyone said to that mother her son was a baby killer.
I did more research at the time that was posted. I may be wrong about what was said, will look it up again when I get back.
Guess I got my stories mixed up. Still, this sort of behavior is different than a crowd that may have chanted 4 more years whether there was someone shouting or not.
The family friend's message alleges Drake's mother was "harassed and yelled at, booed and hissed, told her son died for nothing."
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banana,
Compassion sure. Does that mean we allow her to cause disorder at a public even and disrespect a public official that had nothing to do with her son's death.
You should see how Bush supporters are treated at liberal/socialis/communist "peace rallies" http://www.protestwarrior.com I've never seen anything like it in my life. IMHO this woman is angry, a natural part of the greiving procsess, and she see's the president as an outlet for it.
Doing it at a public even is inexcusable no matter the circumstances.
As far as the statement you made earlier about president bush and some of the familys.....YOU ARE DEAD WRONG (no pun intended)
Right before the RNC convention Bush met with several family members of the fallen and had a prayer session with them.
He's also visited the wound more than a few times.....he's even taken time out of his schedule to go for a jog with a soldier who lost a leg in combat....called him every month asking him when he was ready.
You want to blame conservatives for this than fine. By all means voice your biased flame bait. If you want to have an honets discussion you have to be honest to begin with.
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The sympathy and understanding here is amazing.
Well leftist whacko, you are either trolling or didn't read the entire thread, which is it?
Pssst Thrawn, Bush in an electoral landslide, get used to it.
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I agree on your point that it was in poor taste how she got shouted down but she also had chose the wrong venue, GOP rally, to scream questions at Laura Bush.
Westy, we're really right on the same page about how the woman behaved, and how she was treated.
As for being a Rutgers grad and "knowing" what he was getting into? Since when did college mean one had common sense or street smarts. I repeat. He was fed a line of bull**** by the recruiter. Label him gulllible if anything.
The son could have been gullible, certainly. I also can envision recruiters being zealous about their job. To answer your question about common sense: well it has been traditionally held that once a person graduates from college he/she is mature/educated enough to make important decisions. I mean, where do we draw the line? When is a person capable of making such decisions?
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Well very interesting topic, for me and others with sons/daughters in, or going in or maybe just of that age group.
Wonder if westy or banana even have kids, cause if they do, and have never thought about their kids going before you do,or being killed in some way, what ever way,Id say something was wrong.
If a person has children of any age, that alone makes them capable of commenting on the death of this ladys son. [God bless him, I for one knows, he knew what he was doing.]
It is time for her to seek help and shut the hell up. It is now pure narcissism for her to continue this with no thought to the reputation and herioc actions of her son, or those still serving overthere.
Now when I say shut the hell up I mean in this way ,not in the first admendment way.
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Originally posted by Westy
No speculation here. The guy enlisted to help with his bills and advance his potential future carreer in the CIA/FBI and his mother heard what was being dished to him by the recruiter. They all bought it and just because you weren't hoodwinked by a recruiter doesn't make people who were less intellegent. Hence the "gullible" comment. I at least give the kid credit for trusting in people andnot being dumb. If that is speculation so be it. It's far less than you and the others here who try to literally make him out to be another Private Jessica.
And yes having children is important IMO as it's the vital ingrediant to understanding how a parent thinks and feels. Otherwise a non-parents "expert" opinion is like that of the celibate priest who lectures others on what marriage and sex are al about.
Nothing you've said has caused me to change my pov but in fact you've helped strengthened it. Thank you.
"GWB didn't kill her son."
Of course Bush didn't place the bomb in the road that killed him.
It's amazing that the left wingers, the majority of whom have never served a day in their lives, all assume servicemen are idiots.
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look up last "who was in service" threat. you'll be suprized.
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Steve you implied the guy knew what he was getting into and that he made a sacrafice of himself. What he "got" was a line of bull from the recruiter and ended up in IRaq trying to defuse a bomb when his training was anti-air artilleray.
Change the post after I replied to it? Underhanded.
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Originally posted by Martlet
It's amazing that the left wingers, the majority of whom have never served a day in their lives, all assume servicemen are idiots.
This is OT, but I've found that people that would never volunteer to serve, for whatever reason, tend to think that their opinion of the military is the right one, which I can understand. But many of them express their opinion with verbal disdain for the people that do volunteer, thinking that their superior understanding, or intelligence, or whatever it is they think they have that led them to believe that it's just not the right thing to do, is just that, superior. Of course, we all do this to some degree with all manner of subjects. Even politics.
As far as supposition goes, no one knows what transpired when that guy enlisted. "The person he was closest to"? You don't know that either. Lots of assuming and none of us will ever know what really happened.
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Sad topic.
It reminds me of the guy that tried to set himself on fire in a truck.
The woman is unhinged. The only thing she is saying is that she loved her son. She's not going about it in good way. Poor gal.
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I think you guys have a reasonable difference of opinion on the actions of the greiving mother, but what do you think about the crowd's behavior in attempting to drown her out with chants of "Four more years...four more years!"?
If there is such a thing as "compassionate conservatism", here was an opportunity to demonstrate it squandered. And it wouldn't have cost a cent. I'm not a big fan of disruptive protests, but I can understand the mother's actions. But, the crowd's response sickens me.
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Nothing underhanded at all Steve. I edited my post to add to it, not change it all around, at the SAME exact time you replied yesterday. Or maybe I'm clairvoiyant and I knew what you were going to say!
Martlet I wouldn't just assume someone is an idiot for no reason. I mean look at you. In your case you've proven it seven times over in here with your deaf ears, poor reading comprehension and rabid Jay Severin imitation. As for the prior service commen I'm not sure where you're coming from with that as it's a kind of wacked out thought onyour part. If it makes you feel better (not really. I'm just being a smartass) I did four years in the US navy.
"no one knows what transpired when that guy enlisted."
Lazerus. His mother said she heard from the horses mouth (recruiter) the empty promises and assurances.
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Originally posted by Martlet
It's amazing that the left wingers, the majority of whom have never served a day in their lives, all assume servicemen are idiots.
Martlet, that is by far the least intelligent thing you have posted. Just because someone is a liberal, does not mean they are not a patriot. Except in the eyes of conservatives.
We've done the "who served" thing over and over in here and I believe it balances out. Just because you vote Republican (those that actually take the time to vote and not just ride the "I hate democrats" bandwagon) does not make you more of a patriot. Nor does it give you the right to arrest and imprison someone that differs with your views.
This administration has a particularly disturbing habit of jailing the dissenting. Isn't that what we we told the evil oppressive Communists did to their people who spoke out?
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This woman said she wanted to ask Laura Bush "Why the senators, the legislators, the congressmen, why aren't their children serving?"
actually i find it a good question, to bad no answere.
R
Gh0stFT
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Originally posted by rpm371
Martlet, that is by far the least intelligent thing you have posted. Just because someone is a liberal, does not mean they are not a patriot. Except in the eyes of conservatives.
We've done the "who served" thing over and over in here and I believe it balances out. Just because you vote Republican (those that actually take the time to vote and not just ride the "I hate democrats" bandwagon) does not make you more of a patriot. Nor does it give you the right to arrest and imprison someone that differs with your views.
This administration has a particularly disturbing habit of jailing the dissenting. Isn't that what we we told the evil oppressive Communists did to their people who spoke out?
But it gives you the right to profess US Servicemen and women are too stupid to make an informed decision? That response is directly proportionate to the quote it was referring to. If you take offense then you obviously fit the bill.
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Originally posted by Westy
Nothing underhanded at all Steve. I edited my post to add to it, not change it all around, at the SAME exact time you replied yesterday. Or maybe I'm clairvoiyant and I knew what you were going to say!
Martlet I wouldn't just assume someone is an idiot for no reason. I mean look at you. In your case you've proven it seven times over in here with your deaf ears, poor reading comprehension and rabid Jay Severin imitation. As for the prior service commen I'm not sure where you're coming from with that as it's a kind of wacked out thought onyour part. If it makes you feel better (not really. I'm just being a smartass) I did four years in the US navy.
"no one knows what transpired when that guy enlisted."
Lazerus. His mother said she heard from the horses mouth (recruiter) the empty promises and assurances.
Ahhh. I get it. Since YOU were stupid enough to buy the recruiters bit hook, line, and sinker you assume everyone else is also.
You would never understand Jay Severin. He's leagues above you.
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
This woman said she wanted to ask Laura Bush "Why the senators, the legislators, the congressmen, why aren't their children serving?"
actually i find it a good question, to bad no answere.
R
Gh0stFT
Several are serving, I read somewere that the number is 18 or so have children in the milatary.
Look it up to get the correct count, but to imply none are serving is not a fact, sounds good if you want to further a cause but still untrue.
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Originally posted by Scootter
Several are serving, I read somewere that the number is 18 or so have children in the milatary.
Look it up to get the correct count, but to imply none are serving is not a fact, sounds good if you want to further a cause but still untrue.
anyone have that data available?
I'd love to have it to throw at my neighbor
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http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031772128590
WASHINGTON - Joe Wilson knows firsthand the sacrifice of military service: Two helicopter crashes in the 1970s killed his brother-in-law and his wife's first husband, who was a friend of his.
Now, three of Wilson's four sons are in the military, including Alan, whose Army National Guard unit was recently ordered to prepare for deployment. Expected destination: Iraq.
In Congress, where Wilson represents southeastern South Carolina, the freshman Republican is one of the few lawmakers with children in the military. At least seven of the 535 senators and representatives have sons or daughters in the armed services.
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"For me, the trauma of Americans being under attack [by terrorists] is far greater than the personal consequences my family may face," said Wilson, who retired recently after 31 years in the Army National Guard.
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lol @ you Martlet. Your myopic and deranged "part line" can be hilarious.
And you're correct. Severin is indeed leagues beyond me. He's right there beside Limbaugh up on the top rungs of the belligerent, lying ******* ladder. Which says a lot about you too.
FYI, you're as misguided and unable to comprehe3nd what someone says as your juh_juh_Jay. I went to the recruiter, told *him* what I wanted, took the asvap test and with my outstanding scores got to name my choice of jobs. Then I took that four years of training and ojt (including a commendation for service of Lebanon) and got a nice job on the outside. Win-Win for me and the USN. No sucker here.
What were you?
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Originally posted by Westy
lol @ you Martlet. Your myopic and deranged "part line" can be hilarious.
And you're correct. Severin is indeed leagues beyond me. He's right there beside Limbaugh up on the top rungs of the belligerent, lying ******* ladder. Which says a lot about you too.
You obviously don't listen to Severin. What's he lied about? OH, you're still ticked he proved the Boston Globe Retractor wrong..........again.
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Off topic
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Originally posted by Westy
I went to the recruiter, told *him* what I wanted, took the asvap test and with my outstanding scores got to name my choice of jobs.
Ah yes. The infamous "asvap" test. That's the one that lets you be a BM, right?
I took the ASVAB myself. Then I too chose my duty. 2 years of training then 5 years with the MIF teams in South America/Carib conducting drug interdiction, receiving the usual display of medals and commendations, JUCs, and LOAs/LOCs.
You done chest thumping yet, or does comparing services make you feel better about yourself? You're sounding like Hanoi John now. I'll bet that resume is impressive around your typical liberal moonbat crowd. It's business as usual for my circle.
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Comparing mine to yours? Not in the least. I'm not that small. Chest thumping? Not at all either although perhaps it could appear that way to someone who has an inferiorrity complex.
I wanted to see if you'd try and trash a vet's service like your masters in the Republican party do.
Yeah. lol the asvap test that let's you be a BM. lol. You got it Einstein ;)
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Originally posted by Westy
Yeah. lol the asvap test that let's you be a BM. lol. You got it Einstein ;)
HA! You still don't, though.
:aok
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asvap? HA HA HA HA :rofl
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
This woman said she wanted to ask Laura Bush "Why the senators, the legislators, the congressmen, why aren't their children serving?"
actually i find it a good question, to bad no answere.
R
Gh0stFT
That's a really easy one to answer. There is no draft in the United States nor has there been one since the early 1970's. Parents cannot sign their children up in the military. It is a voluntary thing that anyone 18 or over can choose to do or not do.
As to the truth of the "question", as others have said I think, there are in fact children of legislators serving.
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My error. It's actually the ASVAB although I'd always pronounced it "azvap."
http://www.baseops.net/militarybooks/asvab/
And I fully understand that for some that this test (hell, even a HS diploma or GED for that matter) would have been a waste of time given thier chosen or military assigned "occupation." Which explains the "lol" attitude I see.
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to the lady for exercising her right to free speech.
to the cops for doing their job when required.
to the crowd for exercising their right to free speech.
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Originally posted by Tumor
to the lady for exercising her right to free speech.
to the cops for doing their job when required.
to the crowd for exercising their right to free speech.
I can agree with that
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Originally posted by Westy
My error. It's actually the ASVAB although I'd always pronounced it "azvap."
http://www.baseops.net/militarybooks/asvab/
And I fully understand that for some that this test (hell, even a HS diploma or GED for that matter) would have been a waste of time given thier chosen or military assigned "occupation." Which explains the "lol" attitude I see.
I hope you aren't implying stupidity...you can't be dumb to be an OS..especially an Air Controller
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Originally posted by ASTAC
I hope you aren't implying stupidity...you can't be dumb to be an OS..especially an Air Controller
Nah, he was just bragging about a test he took and he didn't even know what the test was. Then to hide the fact that while trying to show how smart he was he actually showed the opposite, he thought it would be fun to belittle other members of the service. He's your typical head scrubber who comes home with stories of grandeur.
I spent some time in CIC while on patrol. The OS's I knew were top notch.
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No grangur in the Navy. Deployments are like...Well we sat off the coast of ___ then we went to a port..then sat off of__some more...then went to a port..and came home...War is Boring in the Navy most of the time:D Unless you are an LCAC driver or on a Cyclone class PC
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Originally posted by Westy
And yes having children is important IMO as it's the vital ingrediant to understanding how a parent thinks and feels. Otherwise a non-parents "expert" opinion is like that of the celibate priest who lectures others on what marriage and sex are al about.
How absurd. I guess men shouldn't be OB/GYNs cause they can't have menstral cycles or have babies.
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Bzzzt. Bad answer. They shouldn't tell people who experience cramps and give birth how it feels.
"you can't be dumb to be an OS"
No idea about ATC os's, I was in the fleet. However most of the OS's up in the CIC on my ship were dumb as rocks. Not as dumb as supply div rocks but right alonside the likes of radiomen. Able to break radar repeaters, radio gear and IC gear by just touching it while mumbling from out of slack jawed mouths "duh, whuzz diz do...."
"He's your typical head scrubber who comes home with stories of grandeur."
lol. Trying to impress Karl Rove forr a job at one of smear-ad agencies I see.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
No grangur in the Navy. Deployments are like...Well we sat off the coast of ___ then we went to a port..then sat off of__some more...then went to a port..and came home...War is Boring in the Navy most of the time:D Unless you are an LCAC driver or on a Cyclone class PC
Try working on the flight deck.
At night.
In a war zone.
Boring? Only if you are already dead.
-Smut
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Hmmmm... alot of BS running around about the ASVAB.
BTW Westy... I always remembered it as "ASFAB" because that's the way WE pronounced it. I wrinkled my brow at the "ASVAP" line myself. ASVAB seems like it's right in the middle, just where it should be. I'm a bit suprised Martlet is keying on that like it really matters.
I scored very high on the ASVAB too. High enough that I qualified for virtually any job in the Air Force that didn't require special language skills (I had none). That had little to do with anything in the grand scheme of things. Despite qualification, you are still limited to available jobs. And, all you really have to go on when deciding is the little one paragraph job description unless you have friends with more insite. Even with friends, you still have an extremely skewed perspective on things as I'm sure you found out once you joined.
Recruiters are also liars. But then, so are used car salesmen. How would a recruiter that joined the military and then became a recruiter know anything about getting into the FBI or CIA? "Military Service" comes in second behind "B.Y.U." (FBI) or "Notre Dame" (CIA).... well... maybe 3rd for the CIA since "Anapolis" would be there too which comes with it's own service. If the son were really that into being in the CIA or FBI, he would have known that himself. The military was his only real option and he would have taken it regardless. It's how it is for many. The recruiter could sit there and say nothing and it wouldn't have mattered.
I dunno, but the statements from the mother in the article look like the typical things a mother would say after her son was killed. The don't look informed, they don't look accurate, they don't really look like anything other than a mother trying to fit the loss of her son into an already firm political perspective.