Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hans on December 01, 2000, 04:44:00 AM
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Ok, now it may ruffle you feathers a bit, but this is true:
The current main arena is a team deathmatch game with airplanes instead of BFG2000s.
Now, when First Person Shooters started having mods to them to make them into team-based games, the most popular mods were the "counterstrike" ones. The basic premise is you get money (another name for "points") which you can use to buy bigger and better guns.
Now, these are widely hailed as the best thing ever to make the FPS games a lot of fun.
Now, take a step back and look at it. The Perk Plane system is the same deal (sorry HT/Pyro...you didn't invent this gameplay feature).
Now, I know what your going to say to me. "Hans, your a iL33t G4m3r D00d. Go back and play your piddly Half-life, punk".
Hell no. I hate FPS games. They're laggy, they're too small, they go too fast to try to organize anything, and they often go too far away from realism. I like hardcore simulations. The harder the better.
However.
I do know a good gameplay feature when I see one.
- FPS deathmatch turns into FPS team play with a goal = Everyone says its good.
- Flightsim deathmatch turns into flightsim team play with a goal = wrecks the game.
What hypocrisy is this?
Hans.
[This message has been edited by Hans (edited 12-01-2000).]
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One thing about the "counterstrike" type mod. The emphasis was on keeping each other alive so u could attain your goal. Death to you is the end, and could very well be the end for your team...
Hey!! that sounds like a scenario!! sign up for one Hans +)
AKSKurj
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I am against the idiotic "perk" plane idea....people log on and off AH for an hour or two and I for one do not want to be dodging some uber plane. I would like a fair chance. Conversely, I do not want to get my kill flying an uber plane in the current arena because it taints the kill. A scenario is different since the rules are all understood before hand and everyone starts about the same time with the same goal. Even so.... Also.. A scenario that has a lopsided plane set is not fun. Why would a lopsided MA be fun?
lazs
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
I am against the idiotic "perk" plane idea....people log on and off AH for an hour or two and I for one do not want to be dodging some uber plane. I would like a fair chance. Conversely, I do not want to get my kill flying an uber plane in the current arena because it taints the kill. A scenario is different since the rules are all understood before hand and everyone starts about the same time with the same goal. Even so.... Also.. A scenario that has a lopsided plane set is not fun. Why would a lopsided MA be fun?
lazs
LOL! Whats wrong Spaz-afraid your dWeEbC wont be king of the hill anymore? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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jizzhead (i did pronounce it correctly?).... Yes, that is it.. I am afraid. I don't have the courage to fly a brave plane like a P51 like you do.
lazs
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I fly the p-38 for better or for worse (ussually worse) and...
I fear nothing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
what if all the other planes get better than my favorite ride?!?!
they are (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
what if my ride cant out turn, out climb or outrun most planes in AH!?!?!?
it can't (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
im not real concerned about whatever else HTC throws in to the mix with the perk system. it will just make flying the p38 that much more challenging.
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Hans
We already have teamplay here.
As described before, one sinngle uber plane can totally disrupt a squad mission. Not so now, as all planes have their weaknesses that a squad of reasonable skill can exploit.
Perk system detracts immersion adds gamey feeling (now, points are important and points matter) and encourages Best Plane I am |337 style thinking.
Dweeb hunts also detract from immersion.
If people want to live out fantasy wet dreams, we should have a RPS.
Don't get me wrong; I fly the A8. Like citabria, I think it'll make flying more challenging. But I fly for and with a squad and squad missions are what makes AH fun. This system threatens it and removes immersion.
It might encourage people to fly to live though, which is good.
It might overencourage some people, turning them into Sir Robin cowards.
Good thing we're all entitled to an opinion on this board; this is mine.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Ok, my thinking on this.
First off, you keep acting as if you guys are always going to be running into these perk planes all the time. I thought the idea was they will be uncommon? You and I haven't even tried it yet, so how do you know this? For all you know it could take over a week solid of playing to see an enemy one.
Also, you keep saying how unfair it is that they are in a perk plane and your not. It is fair. The only way it would be unfair if you couldn't fly them, but they could.
Turn the Perk System sideways and look at it. Its very similar to what is being added in World War II Online. Rare weapons will be rare, and you will get access to them only by working your butt off.
The Perk Plane system is the MORE realistic system than the Rolling Plane Set. In the RPS, EVERYONE can fly planes that were rare. These are supposed to be rare, hardly ever seen weapons. The RPS doesn't do this.
And it is the side benefits that are what sold me.
The Perk Plane system is going to help when a country is outnumber, since they will get cheaper prices on them. This is my major gripe with AH. I hate it when the sides are unbalanced. I don't like the feeling of "pity" when the other sides won't finish off my last three bases, because there is only five of us playing for them. I don't want your damn mercy, I am capable of fighting you off. I just can't do it alone.
Also, I like having a reward for doing well. Right now, you play, but in the end there isn't much to play for. I'm getting bored of the mindless furballing. Nobody wants to do anything else, because there is no reason too. In fact it just ends up like I just mentioned. A large force full of guilt only half heartilly fighting a small country who are pissed off because they are getting gangbanged. Now, if those last few are taking off in perk planes, damn right I will slam the lid on their coffin!
I'm hoping the PP system adds some fire to the arena and gets things moving.
Hans.
[This message has been edited by Hans (edited 12-03-2000).]
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The biggest problem I see is that a few select pilots will have access to the perk rides virtually any time they want one.
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Well, we just finished Afrika Corps last night, and I will have to go back and check the logs to be sure.
Remember all the complaints about how the Typhoon would totally disrupt the Scenario, and nothing could touch it?
I believe that it was killed the most by the lowly C.202, the slowest plane in the set, and armed only with very light MG's.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Verm, in frame 1, due to being out of gas (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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In frame 1 maybe, but they tangled in just about every frame.
In last nights frame, I think we lost 3-4 C.202's and they got 2-3 Typhoons.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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StSanta,
With all due respect, you've only posted stuff like:
"We get our squad together, take off and form up when VOOM here comes a perk plane and totaly disrupts the squad!"
That DOES NOT describe how perks would mess up squads.
How does the perk in that scenario mess up your squad? By voooming? What if I voom through your squad in a Bf109G-10? Does that mess up your squad?
There have been no descriptions of how a single perk plane will mess up a squad.
Sisu
-Karnak
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I do not argue that there is something unrealistic about a perk plane system. If you want to model the realism of a lopsided war then they would indeed be realistic. Not seeing and enemy plane for a whole tour would also be "realistic". I only argue that having several people at a time have an advantage in hardware (planes) is custom made for animosity and is a very sloppy solution for the problem of introducing late war planes. I don't want to tangle with said perk planes and I don't want to fly em against inferior planes.
The whole thing reminds me of another sim where some administrators would go around in some form of god mode where they were invulnerable or had semi truck sized bullets. Why not just put "health" potions in the clouds that you could fly through and pick up ammo, fuel or repairs?
Supposedly perk planes would be rare. How rare? if they are very rare it will just piss people off all the more when they spoil a fight. If they are not rare then we will have a two tiered system of have and have nots. I can see no reason for having a perk system.
lazs
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Karnak
Look; if we run into a 109; we can drag it down with minimal fuss. P-51's too. It's simply a matter of forcing him to attack and then using our strong sides against his weak. It doesn't even require us losing very much altitude.
In comes a superduperuber plane with no apparent weaknesses. In order to shoot him down or indeed survive, he can force all of us down to the deck since we have no move to counter with.
Name any plane in the current planeset and my squad has a cure for it. One plane won't mess up our mission.
Introduce a plane like the Spit XIV and then one plane will force us low and with the limited fuel endurance of the LW planes, guess what happens? RTB. Thanks, that was very amusing. Meanwhile the perker rtb's, takes off again and is ready for another session.
So we go to another field. Ooops, someone has perk plane there too! How sad.
Perk idea is bad. Period.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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StSanta,
Sorry, I didn't realize that you and your squad were such poor pilots.
A Spitfire F.MkXIV (your example of an superduperuber plane) has these two behavior options:
1: Boom and Zoom
2: Turn and Burn
If it uses option 1 it is effectively a short ranged P-51 and the basic tactics that work against a P-51 will work against it.
If it uses option 2 it is a slightly better accelerating Spitfire MkIX. It will still be slower than your BnZing 109s or 190s and the basic tactics that work against a Spitfire MkIX will work against it.
It does not accelerate fast enough to transition from behavior 2 to behavior 1 when fighting more than 2 well flown aircraft.
I'm sorry to hear that you can't deal with P-51s and Spitfire MkIXs.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Any plane can be fought versus any other plane. No plane is that dominant, even the perks.
Try flying a Jug for a tour if you want to see what it will be like. When I run into a C-Hog I am completely out-classed in every respect. Climb, speed, turn, E retention, guns, everything. The only thing I have is high-alt performance which doesn't mean squat in the arena. You don't hear me whinin' about it. So you don't have a clear advantage of any kind... so what. Welcome to my world.
BTW, all of these things are only a problem if I'm by myself. Give me one Jug wingy and I'm not out-classed anymore... by anything. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 12-05-2000).]
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The way the perk points system was described... the perk plane is lost if you die flying it and perk points are reset.
I don't really agree with any of the "disrupting squads" arguments presented above. I think they are a moot point. Who is going to dive a one-kill one-plane aircraft into a 4:1?
I do, however, believe that perk planes will be more of a neusance than a perk. The fact that a loss is really a loss means perk planes will be the highest, fastest and most distant planes in the arena. They will be superior in some way (afterall.. they are perked for a reason) and will be flown by pilots that are VERY reluctant to engage from anything but a distinct advantage.
It just seems to be something that would cause animosity in the arena.
AKDejaVu
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Now AKDejaVu's appraisal is something that I agree with.
I do think that perks will be used in the most conservative manner and that will cause much whinning from the masses below.
Look at how they already whine about the P-51D and use it as a preview of the Great Whine to come.
Sisu
-Karnak
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"will cause much whinning from the masses below."
?? So. How is this is different than what we all have to hear online and see in these boards every day right now?
-Westy
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Karnak:
when the reps say the liberals are idiots not capable of coherent thinking, sarcasm or general understanding, they're probably right.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Next time you insult me or my squad, you better bring on heavier firepower.
At least try. Even a dimwitted, maggots for brain leftist conspiracy feeble minded gimboid with the charm of a Springer fan and the intellect of a mutated braindead midget ought to have come up with something better.
You're a bit short of a byte.
Now, kindly, if you will, please go play with some gasoline. I'll provide the matches.
Even better since you're bound not to figure out how they work, I'll throw you a lit torch.
be kind to the dogs - they are probably not enjoying your sexual escapades with them as much as you are.
Regards
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Lephturn, I fly the A8. The Jug and A8 are comparable, with the advantage slightly in the favour of the jug.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Lephturn, I fly the A8. The Jug and A8 are comparable, with the advantage slightly in the favour of the jug.
LOL, the Swastika tattoo is showing through your thinly veiled shroud.
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Not true StSanta.
With the A8 you have the clear advantage in roll over every plane in the sim. You also have one of the best accellerating planes in the game, especially as compared to the Jug.
Now I will grant you that the A8 and Jug are similar in terms in strengths and weaknesses, but that's about it. Sow how is the Jug supposed to be the better plane again? I guess it's tougher, not that I'd call that a "performance" measurement. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
However, none of that is the point really. My point is that fighting a plane that out-classes you in almost every way is nothing new. If you want it to be "fair", then we all need to fly the same plane. Life isn't fair, and neither is AH. It's not supposed to be. Deal with it.
And I guess in the end that's what it will come down to. You'll either deal with the perk plane system or leave. HTC knows very well they will lose some customers over the Perk system, but they will likely gain some as well. This is the case with any change they make to a product like this. Obviously they feel it is the right decision to make. Now why don't we just wait and see the thing actually implemented before we waste any more time complaining about it?
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Hmm, Leph, the more I read your posts, the more I'm likely to give up eating pork! <S>
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So far I haven't seen one good argument against perk planes. The smart pilot will prevail in any plane, you just give it to him and he'll do damned amazing things with it. Pilots that get the perk planes won't do handsomehunked things with it, such as using it to engage an entire squad unless they want to lose that there perk plane. The 262 won't afford you the cushion of safety in a dynamic arena with so many variables that our feeble minds can not attempt to comprehend them. You think just cuz you got speed you're safe?
262 has poor initial turning and no sustained turn rate. He's got one good pass then he's gotta zoom away allowing you to regain any speed you lost for another quick jinx when he comes diving down onto you again. Using intelligence rather than just yanking your stick around will always guarantee you will live while you send your opponent to meet the virtual ground in a ball of fire.
If I have no quarrels with one or two high ponies in a low and slow La5, then who's to say I will have no problem dealing with one or two high perk planes in a low and slow <insert plane type here>?
You'd better get used to flying a plane that isn't king of the hill right now, because there's going to be plenty of times in the near future where you are going to wish you learned more than taking quick pot shots then dashing away to secure an alt/speed advantage over your enemy or relying simply on your cannons to make up for your lack of SA and ACM.
-SW
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lephturn:
This discussion made me think, so I did some comparisons. Please check
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001125.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001125.html)
to see it.
Quite interesting. I expected the P-47 to perform a bit better.
And, if you notice I am responding to an anti whiner. I ain't starting these threads.
"Cause and effect go hand in hand with/the devil might care but I don't mind" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 12-05-2000).]
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Your tests pretty much confirmed what I figured the comparison of the two planes was anyway.
The Jug is no arena plane, the alts are just too low for her to really shine. I can't wait to fly my "big lady" in a scenario though. <G>
Oh yeah, and if you think the Jug is ugly, you must like those skinny waif-like model chicks that look like skeletons. I like my planes and my women with a little more meat on 'em. My Jug is a beautiful full figured gal. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Ok... The arguement is that there is enough whining allready so adding more with perk planes is ok? Or is it... Enough people fly conservitivly now so why not add more?
The point is... What is the point? Perk planes can only make things worse in the arena. Whoever is in one has an unfair advantage and whoever get's beat by one will be pissed if he knows it was by a perk plane and whining about FM if he doesn't know it.
So why have em? So that the late war oddballs can be introduced and thereby be "used" in scenarios? Look... Why not just make em a scenerio only plane if that is the case? Everyone complains that they can't get people into scenarios but that would certainly be an incentive.
I of course, prefer a early and/or late war "arena area" but...
lazs
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
The point is... What is the point? Perk planes can only make things worse in the arena. Whoever is in one has an unfair advantage and whoever get's beat by one will be pissed if he knows it was by a perk plane and whining about FM if he doesn't know it.
I won't. I'm looking forward to the perk plane system, and I think it'll be good.
SOB
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
Oh yeah, and if you think the Jug is ugly, you must like those skinny waif-like model chicks that look like skeletons. I like my planes and my women with a little more meat on 'em. My Jug is a beautiful full figured gal. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So THATS why you have that squad logo of Rosanne Barr on the side of your plane!! I just thought you were a fan of her show (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Ding
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What SOB said.
Funny how people can give their opinion on something thats not even here yet. Remember how controversial combat trim and padlock[/b] were before they were implemented? Do you ever hear about them now?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 12-06-2000).]
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[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-06-2000).]
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to me the me-262 looks kinda like a plecostomus - it will be fun shooting them down
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LOL Dingy. Hahaha. Not quite THAT full-figured. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Maybe Anna Nicole Smith. <G>
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/squads/approved/lephturn.gif)
Mr. Pig is much cooler, but still fits the "full figured" image. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
BTW Lazs,
HTC is only implementing the perk system so they can get planes and vehicles in the game that people want. The trick is to do that without un-balancing the arena too much. In answer to your question "why do it", it's because HTC will attract more people to the game if there is the ability to pilot some of these late-war killers that don't show up in most other sims. Just another way for HTC to try to attract more folks to Aces High. Sure, they'll likely lose a few players because of it, but they think they'll gain far more than they lose. I think they are right. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) What we think is pretty much irrelevant however, since this is purely a business decision that HTC has made.
I'm looking forward to my P-47N! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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HTC may also be trying to get out of the same mold of Air Warrior, Fighter Ace and WarBirds. Right now those games are cheaper, and are very similar.
HTC doesn't have too much over their competion to draw more customers.
And when WW2Online is out, HTC might even loose customers.
So, maybe HiTech and Pyro are trying something else to get away from the rest of the pack. The 1945 planeset.
I still think Aces High is boring right now. I want the Perk system because I want something new to do and a tangible goal to fight for.
Hans.
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lep... that is of course, the crux of it.... It is not my decision. I am simply stating that the perk plane idea is not well thot out. I don't see how it would attract new people as they would not be able to fly one of these "perk" planes during their two week free period anyway. If they could... it would be an even worse implementation than even I imagine.
If the purpose is to get late war planes into the arena and therefor "attract" new players....Wouldn't it be better to have one day every two weeks where everyone was allowed to "wring out" these so called perk planes? Wouldn't it be better to have a late (and early) war area whithin the current arena so that people could fly them if they wished?
The idiotic "perk" system is a lopsided dead end. Unless you feel that early war planes have no following (battle of Britan, Midway, etc.). The so called "perk" system takes us even further from getting early war planes and makes flying late war oddballs the whole point of the sim.
With these superplanes available 24/7 but to only a select few... you NEVER have a fair arena plane choice wise. Even something as bad as a superplane day every two weeks is preferable to a perk system.
lazs
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lazs,
Where we disagree is in the area of how "well thought out" this perk system is. Pyro, HT, and the gang at HTC have been in this industry for many, many years. Their business and livelyhood depend on the success of this game. I KNOW they have thought, argued, debated, hashed out this idea for a very long time. They also do things like market research and use the stats they gather from their own business. Basically, they have a whole lot more information to base this decision on than you or I do, and they've thought about it harder and longer than anybody here. That's a simple fact IMNSHO.
In short, I trust HTC's judgement in this area over everybody else's. They have more information, more experience, and more investment in the decision than anybody else. You can disagree with their ideas if you wish, but you've got to respect the effort they put into it. On top of that, none of us have even seen this thing actually implemented. Try to keep an open mind, and we'll see how it goes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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point taken lep... Not my call.
I do feel I have as much right to voice my disgust with the idiotic "perk" idea as the butt smootchers have in praising such a lopsided scheme. I also feel that I have brought up some legitimate concerns that may not have been addressed during all this "research". Such as.... the effect on early war plane introduction.
lazs