Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: fscott on December 01, 2000, 08:45:00 AM
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You mentioned the Arado and the Ta152 in your latest news. Hrm... what I'm afraid of is feeling like I'm flying in a freak show sim of experimental planes. I do realize these planes were flown during actual combat time but the Ta152? It was only a prototype.
The perk system does not bother me, but I was hoping for a more conservative plane set such as the Spit 14, Dora9, P47m, Ki84.
Plese Pyro, we should take a vote not on what planes to include specifically, but whether or not we all want prototypes flying around. If you do that then there is no end to what prototypes you could include. I'm fine with any plane that was proven in actual combat such as the Me163.
Microsoft has already released Crimson Skies, we don't need abnother.
fscott
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Originally posted by fscott:
You mentioned the Arado and the Ta152 in your latest news. Hrm... what I'm afraid of is feeling like I'm flying in a freak show sim of experimental planes. I do realize these planes were flown during actual combat time but the Ta152? It was only a prototype.
I'd ask you to stop this toejam. The Ta152H made aces and flew operationally in WWII. They were NOT prototypes,but front line planes, and were on full production when the war ended. That many of them weren't delivered to front line units doesnt make them prototypes. A Ta152C could be seen as that, a Ta152H clearly, not.
The Arado Ar234 was operational over normandy. Go figure its "prototype" status (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
so,stop this crap please.
The perk system does not bother me, but I was hoping for a more conservative plane set such as the Spit 14, Dora9, P47m, Ki84.
And of course the P51. Isnt it?. No?. then let the Ki84 and the MW50 Fw190D9 out of the perk system. And maybe the SpitXIV and P47m too.
Plese Pyro, we should take a vote not on what planes to include specifically, but whether or not we all want prototypes flying around. If you do that then there is no end to what prototypes you could include. I'm fine with any plane that was proven in actual combat such as the Me163.
Name one Me163 ace. I will name one Ta152: Willi Reschke.
That proofs that you have no idea on what are you talking about, because the ME163 WAS a prototype. Rushed into combat until the allieds avoided flying over the Me163 bases, but still a prototype.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-01-2000).]
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Ta 152 was NOT a prototype; there were a fair number of pre-production H-0, and a handful of H-1 built and used in combat.
The Ar 234 also saw combat use in recon and bombing roles.
A prototype would be the M.B.5 or P-38K.
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Well I'll admit then I had no idea that the Ta152 was an operational fighter, let alone it even had an ace. I thought I've read several places that the only time the Ta152 saw"combat" was when Kurt Tank had to run away from a squad of P51's. I would like to read about the combat reports of the Ta152 if you could direct me to somewhere on the web or a book.
I wasn't arguing the Ar234, I know it was a combat fighter. The Me163 from what I've read had numerous engagements in combat. I would venture to guess many more than a Ta152. More power to Pyro and friends then. If Ta152 saw real combat then include it.
fscott
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Do not forget the role these unique plane types can play in scenarios!
A perk system is definately needed but I would much much MUCH rather have a ROLLING PLANE SET.
Yeager
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Originally posted by Yeager:
A perk system is definately needed but I would much much MUCH rather have a ROLLING PLANE SET.
I definitely have to agree..PREACH ON!!!
Fdscott I have a link over here about a fight between Ta152s from JG301 and Tempests in may 1945...if I find it I will post it.
I dont see the use of a Ta152 on the Main arena, anyway, it was only a high altitude fighter.
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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/luke3.gif)
(http://www.navegalia.com/hosting/000e0/illumm/p51.gif)
[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 12-01-2000).]
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<banana sits down on the sofa, pours Ripsnort a cold one>
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net7/beerchug.gif)
"Here Rip, have some popcorn"
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/lurk.gif)
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Me again. I like followup posts.
Kill me but I like Warbirds planeset. There's something very strange about flying unproven airplanes in combat. When I'm flying a P47D-30, I'm thinking now here's what this plane can and can't do in combat cause I've read and ehard the pilots who flew them. There's also extensive data on it's preformance. SO when I'm flying the proven airplanes I feel good about the fact that what I am doing the plane could actually do in combat.
Now say I'm in a P51-H, we all know it was fast, but if I make some awesome maneuver and get the kill, how can I feel comfortable that this plane could really do this? I hope some of you guys understand what I'm saying.
"We want to fly what they flew." It gives me a sense of accomplishing the same missions in the same planes.
As usual someone will misunderstand me.
fscott
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Originally posted by banana:
<banana sits down on the sofa, pours Ripsnort a cold one>
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net7/beerchug.gif)
"Here Rip, have some popcorn"
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/lurk.gif)
<Rip graciously accepts the beer, popcorn, and smiles, sits back with an Artero Fuente jutting out of his jaw, and snickers...> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Name one Me163 ace. I will name one Ta152: Willi Reschke.
That proofs that you have no idea on what are you talking about, because the ME163 WAS a prototype. Rushed into combat until the allieds avoided flying over the Me163 bases, but still a prototype.
The Me 163 was NOT a prototype. About 300 production model Me 163B-1 were built.
The Me 163 equipped I, II and III Gruppe of JG 400 When JG 400 was surrendered to the Allies it was equipped with 80 Me 163.
The first powered flight was over 2 years before it saw combat - hardly "rushed into combat".
Fdscott I have a link over here about a fight between Ta152s from JG301 and Tempests in may 1945...if I find it I will post it.
Here it is: http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/tempest.htm (http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/tempest.htm)
click on "Pilots" on the left menu, and then "pilot stories" at the bottom of the drop-down menu that appears.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 12-01-2000).]
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Hi!
I understand your worries, ppl who are good at shooting others down will only get better.
That would imply that I will never get to fly any of these monsters (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And once a plane is ready no one will ever take it back out of the set I believe. So I think the only possibility to manage this is to raise and steady correct the amount of perk-point needed to fly these.
Imagine you can have a ME163. Surely a great plane to perforate some buff-formations, but not a fighter-vs-fighter-fighter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
How many of one country having x hard-earned-perk-points will risk them when they see some red dots approaching their HQ?
I know im a rook and often rooks do not really work together. But I dont know if its is really better in other countries.
I think the planes the most of us were looking for are "dogfighters".
So knowing that, just make these dogfighters more expensive. You wont have so many of them flying around at once, because only few can afford.
And WHEN u see one, it is prolly an ace, someone who would even shoot you down in a C.202. But not you and 10 of your fellow pilots at the same time, who are in desperate need to fly right this thing too one day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ace or not 10vs1 is no good...
I beleive such a thing with HTC watching over it will be pretty self-balancing.
But after all: It isnt out yet, so we can wait and see and invite our sheep for a BBQ (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Oh, although Im the enemy, may I have a Beer too? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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CU
Purzel
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"Find the enemy and shoot him down, everything else is nonsense!"
M. von Richthofen
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Heres the most important factor to weigh in:
Ripsnort: "Hey, just spotted a TA152 heading for A29"
Knights: Suddenly there are 10 knights climbing for alt to intercept a Perk Plane because what it is worth if destroyed, more perk points for you.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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"Now say I'm in a P51-H, we all know it was fast, but if I make some awesome maneuver and get the kill, how can I feel comfortable that this plane could really do this?"
The plane doesn't do the manevuer and the plane doesn't get the kill. You do, no matter what ride you are flying. Now, just suppose the kill was a TA-152 or Tempest or P-47M/N? would you feel "guilty" then? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) If you shoot down a 202, a 109-F or Spit-V while flying a 51D, 38L a "Niki" do you feel guilty now? No. So why would you feel guilty otherwise?
They are not proposing adding in proto-types or one off freaks. Every plane in the aircraft forumn that Pyro polled us on was in deployment in 1945. Anyone who wants to argue "saw combat"/"didn't see combat" take a hike. It's not the point of his topic.
And remember all. The war in Europe ended in May 1945. Not so for the Pacific.
Should folks ask Pyro not to add the early war Polish, French or Dutch fighters because they too saw very little action for a very breif time too?
-Westy
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hmmm yea Rip, perk planes might be a good distraction tool. Fly one around doing nothing, get 10-15 guys chasing you, and then your teammates go pound a few bases while the defenders are busy drooling all overthemselves trying to get a few points.
Fury
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Originally posted by juzz:
The Me 163 was NOT a prototype. About 300 production model Me 163B-1 were built. ]
Juzz, we can argue about this all day long...but for me a plane that explodes while landing, melts down its pilots, and has more loses due its rocket&fuel combo than because enemy action can't be seen as a front line plane.
Me163 was a nightmare. for its pilots. Not so for the Allied. Again, hardly a "in service" plane.
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RAM, you are not seing combat now, so I said perk RAM in this BBS. (http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/paladin/jesse3.gif)
Que no te de vergüenza volver, hombre!. Todos cometemos errores (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Saludos,
Pepe
[Edit] CH1 is sooooo boring now.... [/Edit]
[This message has been edited by Pepino (edited 12-01-2000).]
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With a 450 mph Me 109 available 24-7, this game passed into freak show land a long time ago...
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Originally posted by Fury:
hmmm yea Rip, perk planes might be a good distraction tool. Fly one around doing nothing, get 10-15 guys chasing you, and then your teammates go pound a few bases while the defenders are busy drooling all overthemselves trying to get a few points.
Fury
Isn't that what the lone wolfers are for? Me, I'll be one of those squads capturing your airbases... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Umm the sole Ta 152 ace was Josef Kiel not Willi Reschke.
Funked, why are you squeaking about the G10? Its not like theres millions of dweebs flying it around like the Niki and 1c...
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I can't wait to jump in a CHOG and HO one of these perk planes.
Sour
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Perk Planes are OKay! As long as they are used correctly.
The perked planes should be awarded to the pilots with the least points, since it would seem they are the ones that need it most!!
Why should the hot pilots get them? It seems to me they are doing just fine without them!!!
RAM I didn't know you started paying and playing again. Welcome back!! Ya got the same handle? Because a non-paying customer to dictate what he/she wants in a simulation over what paying customers want, would be, well it would be pretty damn selfish and unpolite. Anyways, glad to see ya back!!!
Have a nice day!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Funked, why are you squeaking about the G10? Its not like theres millions of dweebs flying it around like the Niki and 1c...
No, but there could be millions flying around, just post enough about ANY A/C in AH, and whine..then it will be banished as an 'UberPlane' in Aces High, and newbies will think "Hmmm, must be the best ride out there!" and low and behold, G10's High will be born! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 12-01-2000).]
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Originally posted by Swager:
RAM I didn't know you started paying and playing again. Welcome back!! Ya got the same handle? Because a non-paying customer to dictate what he/she wants in a simulation over what paying customers want, would be, well it would be pretty damn selfish and unpolite. Anyways, glad to see ya back!!!
Have a nice day!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I dont dictate. I say my opinion.
Just as everybody else.
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Rip, not really. Newbies will try it, get shot down, try it, get shot down, go back to n1k/chog. It simply is NOT a plane well suited for dweebery. Kills require some afterthought.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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I assure you that any dweeb will get off the G10 very quickly... a monster in a experts hands it's a flying coffin for a newbie...
It's fast, it climbs like a rocket - but that's it - awful highspeed handling, no elevator authority, small ammo load, pityful turn... all those characteristics make it most unuseful to dweebs & newbies - unlike the N1K2... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hi
Newbies and Dweebs, (not implying newbies are dweebs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) cant fly 109s worth a damn in any sim ive ever flown, its just not well sutied to inexperienced/impatient players. Yes its fast and climbs well but those attributes are much more difficult to employ than the more intuative and stereotypical tight turns. All newbie/dweeb type planes ive ever encounterd have been more of the turning variety and had very easy to use guns with a large load of ammo. Neither of these apply to the G10, and to a varying extent most other 109 types. Yes the MK108 is uber nasty when it hits you, but if anyone really complains about this I would be more than happy to exchange the single MK108 with 60rds and effective range of 300yds, with your 4 Hispanos, with 900rds, and 1k range. 109 simply isnt a newbie/dweeb plane it takes experience and dedication to its strong points to fly it well and neither of those qualities are present in the dweeb or most new guys.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Hmm, right over their heads... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I don't know.
I'm a Spit driver (15 to 4 in this Tour), which according to most of you makes me a dweeb and I found the Bf109 quite usable. Had fun downing a Spit IX using a G-2 from a massive energy disadvatage in one memorable fight. I did a tour in which I flew 109s almost exclusively (flew a couple Tiffies and 190s) after being hammered by varios people for stating that "I don't fly Nazi aircraft".
I think that guys who say "Newbies and Dweebs can't use my aircraft" are just padding their egos and the egos of others who fly that aircraft.
Trust me, newbies and dweebs would do just dandy in the Bf109G-10 after a short adjustment period.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Hi
Just cuz u fly a spit dont make u dweeb, all I said is the planes that newbies and dweebs gravitrate towards tend to be turn type planes with a very large supply of ammo. 109 doesnt have those features. As for the ego thing, well frankly all I can tell you is what ive experienced in my previous sims, mostly WW2 Fighers and EAW. In both those sims new guys were always advised to avoid the 109 and try a spitfire or something like a 190, as they were simpler to use effecively, had better handling qualities, easier to use gun systems and so on. I dont see it as ego padding to point out the 109s very obvious and very real limitations. Karnak, yes experienced pilots like you will find the 109 "usable" and that supports my point, only reasonably experienced pilots will find the 109 usable and get a reasonable K/D rate in one, newbies/dweebs will not have patience or experience for it. Would you really reccomend a 109G10 to new guy to AH? Thats all, no pretentious ego trips here, just saying 109s arent as newbie/dweeb friendly as some other planes.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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I've noticed the 109s are pretty easy to fly too Karnak (I've taken to G2 simply because it's easier than n1k in furballs, not out of any sort of challenge) but it's still amusing to hear them talk down the rest of the world about how hard they have to work for the same kills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The G2 is ALOT easier to adjust to if you've flown planes like the Niki or the spit first, it turns well (allmost with the niki) and it's got a descent speed, like the Spit in level flight, atleast at low alts.
The G10 however, is a whole nother mather, it turns like a piano, it's allmost impossible to get a good shot when you're flying more then 400Mph due to it compresses easily. It's fast yes, you can outrun mosy things and those that you can't outrun, you outclimb. Ok, but a newbie would NEVER get kills nor do I think he would survive long in the G10. The only thing it does good is climb.
As with the 109's during the war, as described in numerous books, among those Adolf Gallands, that it takes an "Experten" to turn the 109 into the great plane that it actually was. When the 190 was introduced it quickly became a favorite among the Rookies, thanks to it's high speed and good armement, same thing in AH.
That's a long post, hope someone reads it ;-)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/harri.j.niemi/HarpDog.gif)
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 "EisMeer"
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Originally posted by Wilbus:
The G2 .... it turns well (allmost with the niki)
What have you smoked?...
Or drank, for that matter?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-01-2000).]
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Don't remember anything...
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/harri.j.niemi/HarpDog.gif)
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 "EisMeer"
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RAM I killed three Nikis (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/ahss15.jpg) in one flight. Plane was G-2 with gondolas (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 12-01-2000).]
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Kills require some afterthought.
Well, that would be tough for me. Usually once I kill them it's "out of sight, out of mind."
I better stick to the Jug. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Staga:
RAM I killed three Nikis[/URL] in one flight. Plane was G-2 with gondolas (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And you outturned them all isnt it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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uhmm.. no.
Those guys just coldn't handle my uber-plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Wilbus. Love the dog (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Is RAM talking again?
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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G2 outruns spit 9 in my experience...
AKSKurj
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Guys, this is really bugging the hell out of me, and I need to know how you fellas do it. Where do you get all those cool smilie animations like the ones banana, Ripsnort and Pepino use in this post? I WANNA KNOW, PLEASE!!!!!!
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Meine schwester hat keine kartoffel salat? Du bist eine lustige bube!!
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Matti...we could tell ya, but then I'd have to get mad and kill ya. (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net3/outtahere.gif)
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Thanks Easymo, it's "Harppa's" work!
Didn't know my CO could annimate that good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for the G2, I've done flat turns with the niki with my G2, held out for like 3 minutes before he got on my 6, I didn't say it turned better then a niki, nor did I say it turn as good as a niki, I said it turned allmost as good.
I haven't flown it since version .03 though so maybe it has changed now.
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/harri.j.niemi/HarpDog.gif)
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 "EisMeer"
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Originally posted by Wilbus:
I haven't flown it since version .03 though so maybe it has changed now.
lol...you must have fought a quite bad stick in the 1.03 niki to keep turning with him.
about the new version niki, one advice...dont try to do "THAT" again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hehehe, maybe, I don't know.
Anyway, I don't fly the G2 anymore.
I won't leave my G10 untill I get a Dora 9 or a Ta152 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Have fun!
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/harri.j.niemi/HarpDog.gif)
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 "EisMeer"
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perk planes will ruin the game for me. If there is a desire for late (or early) war planes then we have to give them a place to fly that has some inherent fairness. An RPS would work but allways proves somewhat unpopular.
I think that my arena "areas" idea would probably be the best for choice, balance and fairness. With an arena "area" plan, all planes could be flown at all times.... just not unfairly. If you wanted to practice for a scenario you could fly any plane you needed too, against likely and opponents, any time you needed too, while still staying in the MA. If you currently have no interest in flying one era of plane then you could just ignore that "area".
I have no interest in dodging "perk" planes in what is now a balanced arena nor, do I have any interest in flying one in said arena. Right now the slightest percieved irregularity of FM causes howls.... How will people react to getting killed by a real uberplane?
lazs
oh... having said that i would allow the 163 in the current arena.... it would be a limited use "fun plane" and easy to avoid but fun to watch. A little comic relief if say you only got one per 24 hrs or something.
[This message has been edited by -lazs- (edited 12-02-2000).]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Hmm, right over their heads... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That's because they're all runts Rip (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)