Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DoKGonZo on September 20, 2004, 12:37:25 AM
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To borrow a few lines from Jim Morrison's classic song of the same title:
| This is the end
| ...
| Of our elaborate plans, the end
| Of everything that stands, the end
| No safety or surprise, the end
| ...
What's the point?
Well, I was looking forward to usual Sunday night ENY-fest ... I actually got a kick out flying the 51B and La-5. And it was the one night when I figured there'd be a respite from the "non-existant" Bish-Knit truce which has been in effect all week (which of course isn't really happening, it's just that their battles are so intense and only happen below radar so they don't show up on bar-dar ... and the sun was in your eyes when you looked at the map ... yeah, that's the ticket).
So anyway as the Bish were hitting the Western bases, the Knits drooled into A12 with about 8 flights of B17's on the deck and the usual vultch-craft. There were maybe 2 big red dar-bars anywhere else on the map but ganging up on Rooks. I was over A12 in a D9 when it fell and for a moment I actually considered doing a pork-n-auger job on their just-captured barracks.
And it was at that moment I knew I was done with flying AH2 in the MA for a while. Maybe a long, long while. I flew back to base, landed, said "bye" to my squadies, and logged off.
I simply refuse to stoop to the level of play and behavior that dominates the MA. And I have no interest in playing with people who conduct themselves this way.
Seeing people praise ENY for making the MA "fair" in one breath and then in the next finding a way to play around it and do the exact same thing they whined about to get ENY implemented to "fix the Rooks" is just pathetic. It's selfish and, worse still, it's dishonest. And dishonesty really pisses me off.
Many people claimed they wanted "balance" when all they really wanted is to stop losing. Even if they only lost one night a week. Sad. Very sad.
Rangoon will still be run ... I'm hoping the registration form is up this week. There's a site dedicated to AVG stuff I want to try to cross-promote the event with too. But the MA is no fun for me now. Not because of ENY - but because of the ways some people feel they need to win. The ENY debate just brought some of the hypocrisy to the fore. And when it gets to the point that I enjoy talking about AH in the BBS more than actually flying AH, then it's obviously time to stop.
And it's a shame, because I missed it. When I fired up AH2 a couple months ago, and launched a D9 offline it was like coming home. The graphics, the flight model, everything - being able to flick that bird over and make it dance was wonderous. Taking up a P51, giving it some speed, and then pointing it into a chandelle turn like an IRL car on the high banking - feeling the wings catch and take a bite out of the air as it carved the turn - just great. The new skins for the P40's and other mid-war planes are just so gorgeous, the sound packs are just amazing ... it is an incredible technical achievement by all concerned.
Oh well ...
| Can you picture what will be
| So limitless and free
Indeed.
-DoK
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I haven't really followed all these posts about eny but could someone please tell me what the dreaded "ENY-fest" is?
...-Gixer
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That's too bad :(
I've had some fun recently deliberately avoiding mass gaggles, but unfortunately the high fuel burn multiplier heavily penalizes anyone who doesn't want to blindly follow the mass gaggle around. If you don't want to join the horde, your choice of plane is pretty sharply limited to long-endurance rides like the P-51 because the fuel just doesn't last long enough to find fights away from the horde in most planes, and still have enough to RTB.
I have no firm facts or stats that prove the high fuel burn encourages the horde mentality, but I personally tried to learn a few other planes like the typhoon and it just doesn't have enough gas to do anything except join the furball or make one or two jabo passes at an abandoned field and then fly home on fumes. The days of the 4-ship of wingmen roaming the area finding small to medium sized fights is long gone, replaced by a near-hysterical push to the nearest field hoping for some quick kills. It seemed like my efforts to break away from that mentality was foiled by simply running out of gas before anything interesting happened, unless I took a P-51 with drop tanks.
But I realize there is a specific reason for the high fuel burn multiplier, and I don't know which is the worse evil.
Sure wish you'd give it another try in a few days though.
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So to sum it up Dok, YOU have to be on the winning horde side or you get mad and quit. :rolleyes:
Buh-bye
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So anyway as the Bish were hitting the Western bases, the Knits drooled into A12 with about 8 flights of B17's on the deck and the usual vultch-craft. There were maybe 2 big red dar-bars anywhere else on the map but ganging up on Rooks.
...
And it was at that moment I knew I was done with flying AH2 in the MA for a while. Maybe a long, long while. I flew back to base, landed, said "bye" to my squadies, and logged off.
LOL so now you have had a taste of what it is like to be a Bish or Knight over these past several months and you quit, interesting.
The Rooks have had it easy, with the numbers etc. Most of the Knights and Bish have gotten used to being overwhelmed and adjusted instead of quitting, even you yourself saidI actually got a kick out flying the 51B and La-5.
but yet you lost a base, so you quit. Something doesn't add up.
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hit sprites.
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The "flavour" and "atmosphere" of the MA did me in a year ago. I could't imagine how much it could have gotten worse but from your description DoK it certainly did.
"Rangoon will still be run..."
THANK you DoK (and all those folks helping)
In the meantime I continue to hang about these parts for word (any) on "TOD"
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I simply refuse to stoop to the level of play and behavior that dominates the MA. And I have no interest in playing with people who conduct themselves this way.
Well it's too bad that people do that kind of stuff, in any country. But it's always going to happen in an MA. They'll fly how they want, but you can still have fun flying the way you want. Of course it means you won't get tons of kills like the vultchers, and you won't pork as much as the barfers.
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Originally posted by rpm371
So to sum it up Dok, YOU have to be on the winning horde side or you get mad and quit. :rolleyes:
Buh-bye
No, its this kind of selfish, purile, narrow-minded attitude that I don't wish to be bother with.
I didn't like ENY, but spent a lot of time in the BBS talking through ways to tune it to be fair. On Sundays, from my secret identity, I'd tell Rooks to find ways to have fun with the planes they were forced to fly. If it fixed Horde Warrior, it was worth a shot.
But when I see the arena has balanced numbers - or even when Rooks are outnumbered - and still the Bish/Knits insist on this "imaginary" truce (which I accept isn't official, but it's still happening and still being condoned), at that point it's clear that there's a different definition of "balance" that you want. If you wanted parity of numbers, then when you got them there should have been fairly even distribution of numbers in the MA. But there wasn't. Not for over a week now.
You didn't want balance. You wanted the status quo of a year or so back.
Buh-bite me.
-DoK
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Originally posted by rpm371
So to sum it up Dok, YOU have to be on the winning horde side or you get mad and quit. :rolleyes:
Buh-bye
You pretty much hit the nail on the head I think. Perspective can be so inconvenient at times.
edit to buck the trend and add some actual facts- just mine you want someone elses you go get em:
Country - Kills As - Kills Of
Bishop 0 52
Knight 120 0
Rook 0 68
Country - Killed As - Killed By
Bishop 0 38
Knight 81 0
Rook 0 43
edit again to add another - couldnt find DOk, Whels is in my squad and I remebered how to spell his name (for another example against this "everyone is against rooks" ignorance):
Country - Kills As - Kills Of
Bishop 0 345
Knight 618 0
Rook 0 273
Country - Killed As - Killed By
Bishop 0 51
Knight 67 0
Rook 0 16
edit (last one) found better numbers Tour 56 (this tour):
Knights:
Knights Killed 55311 Bishops - Bishops Killed 47515 Knights
Knights Killed 53143 Rooks - Rooks Killed 54526 Knights
Bishops:
Bishops Killed 47515 Knights - Knights Killed 55311 Bishops
Bishops Killed 40121 Rooks - Rooks Killed 47181 Bishops
"Facts are stubborn things"
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Originally posted by mars01
LOL so now you have had a taste of what it is like to be a Bish or Knight over these past several months and you quit, interesting.
The Rooks have had it easy, with the numbers etc. Most of the Knights and Bish have gotten used to being overwhelmed and adjusted instead of quitting, even you yourself said but yet you lost a base, so you quit. Something doesn't add up.
No ... what doesn't add up to you is you are looking at what I posted on too small a scale.
First, from what I observed at the times I flew (evenings, Pacific time) if you removed Sunday night's from the equation the rest of the week things were more or less balanced. And even if you factor in Sunday, Mon and Tue the Rooks kind of got ganged on to make up for Sunday's gains - and then things settled down. Rooks having a 5% bulge in numbers once in a while isn't being "overwhelmed" - that only happened Sunday nights and it could have been handled without ENY and without whining.
It was the hypocricy of people saying they wanted balance and, when given it, prove that wasn't what they wanted at all. What they wanted was HT to take away someone else's advantage under the guise of "restoring balance" to the MA.
And, for me at a personal level, well that makes the MA pretty intolerable. There are so many people working hard to make AH better - not just HTC. The guys like Fruda, Citabria, Waffle, Nopoop and so on who do awesome addons. The trainers, CM guys, and people who put together stats sites. And then you have this behavior of do whatever it takes so "I can get mine." That's one thing that does NOT add up.
Next, it wasn't the field going down that bothered me. It's how it was done - by truce, by lawn-boy B17's, and with very, very little precision. It was that the feeling of "why fight it, just do like they do" started to creep into my equation.
Fear to do base, unworthy things is valor. --B. Jonson.
For me, at this point in my life, it's easier to just walk away. Ten years ago I'd have probably flipped people the finger and rammed B17's on the deck down your collective throats as only I could - and still can. But that won't solve anything. It'd be like clubbing retarded baby seals; too slow witted to even sense fear.
As for my inability to deal with bad odds ... puh-lease. I can remember nights in AW and WB when we had to just about relocate the entire country to our most rearward bases. Not even because of truces - but because the country I was in was just that small at the time. It was pointless to try to defend an extended front.
The reason this doesn't add up to you is you don't have 17 years of playing, observing, contributing, and designing this kind of game in your background. What I see and what you see are completely different.
-DoK
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Originally posted by Zanth
You pretty much hit the nail on the head I think. Perspective can be so inconvenient at times.
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No ... you missed by a mile and smacked your thumb and now it's a bloody pulp, the nail forever rended, the bone shattered - may as well amputate.
Those numbers mean verry little given the tactics in use. 5 flights of lawn-boy B17's is 15 deaths right there for, most likely, 0 kills in return. Knits probably gave away over 50 deaths just in bombers at A12 last night.
Next, look at the damn map. Count the bar-dar. Then look at the number of planes. That math is pretty easy.
And, again, it isn't even that this is happening that really bugged me. It's all the whelping for "restoring balance" which is being shown to be a big lie. Actions always speak louder than words.
I'll let your personal attack about "ignorance" slide in deference to the guys you fly with. This time.
-DoK
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I WAS HIGH OVER OUR AREBAES IN MAH L3T 190D9 AND TEH STUPID TARDS DACIED 2 BRNG B17S OVAR!1111! OMG WTF IS A B17?????!!!!111!!1 OMG WTF IT SHOTS BAK AT ME WH3N I DIEV ON IT?111!!!!??11!1 OMG WTF Y CANT THEY FLY LOW SO I CAN CHERY PIK THAM??!??!??!1!!! OMG LOL WUT IS THIS GMA COMNG 2!!!1!11!!!11!!11 OMG WTF LOL
I QUIT!!111111! OMG WTF
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Originally posted by GScholz
Those are good sentiments, but nothing to do with reality. The reality is that the old players are no longer the core of AH, and their most effective way of community policing has been taken away: ch1. The old guys are leaving in frustration while the new guys grow in numbers. I hardly ever see a familiar handle in the MA these days, and when I do it's just one or two, among hundreds of anonymous new guys. And when people feel anonymous there is no community spirit.
What AH once was, is no longer. What AH is now is a gem of a game that is woefully unprotected against the reality of massively multiplayer game mentality. The same problems that every other multiplayer game has had to deal with.
DoKGonZo, I hope things get sorted out soon, but I think it will take a lot of time ... if ever. :(
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Wow! Can't believe that using your "17 years" of perspective, you are quitting over ONE night of play. That makes it at least appear that you are jumping the gun a wee bit. IMHO you have flown such a limited time since returing to AH2 that don't have the understanding of the "big" picture as to what has been happening for the past 6 months.
Welcome to what the other sides have been experiencing for many months. You now have an idea re. what all the complaining has been about, and you yourself got frustrated and didn't like it one bit. It stands to reason that on Sun. nights the knits and bish focus on the rooks, as that is what they have HAD to do for quite a while. Now picture not only huge buff formations doing low level bombing, but massive pork and auger missions both hitting the same base at the same time while waves of enemy gv's rolled in. THAT is what Sun. nights have been like for non-rooks. There were no fights that were not hugely unbalanced. Hence HT stepping in and making some changes.
One point your off base on though. There was no unwritten truce vs. the rook last night. I flew a couple hours Sun. evening, and found most the big fights were vs. rooks (I am a knit) but that was due more to what bases were taken and their map location (i.e. closer fights) than anything else. Looking at this tours stats, I have killed 247 bish, and 118 rooks. Pretty clear who I pref. to attack.
Last night I fought both. I helped retake Knit bases in the North of the map from the bish (a205 ect) AND capture rook fields (a241 etc). I actually prefer fighting the bish over rook, as they in general will "fight" you, as opposed to rooks who you (in general of course) have to climb tons to meet co alt, then chase 'em around for them to fight you. It never occured to me last night that it was Sunday night Rook horde night. Never even gave it a thought, nor recall seeing anybody talk about it one bit on country chan.
I may not have your long term perspective (9yrs vs. your 17) but I have been playing AH much longer than you (2+yrs) and I do not see any huge massive change in game play. There always has been large groups of buff missions attacking on the deck. Always have been pork n' auger dweebs that ruin a good fight. I feel that last night, you experienced a bad night in flying, and it's sad that you have decided to "take your toys and go home" based on such a limited time. Heck, I consider your whole stint back on AH a limited time. (two months maybe?)
Weren't the sides fairly even last night? I don't recall seeing a big enough side disparity of numbers that the ENY limiter would have had anything but a negligable affect on any country. Several rook squads have changed countries in the past couple weeks, and it seems that balance is being restored, and the ENY limiter is no longer needed. just my opinion there though.
Flame away, spout some creative way to try and make me look childish, or stupid, but in the end know that you sir, are the one acting like a crybaby, and it's too bad. You have had a powerful impact on AH (at least the BBS) since you have returned, and it is too bad that you decided to give up on the community after such a short stay. Know that I have nothing but respect for you as being one of the "legends" of the WW2 sim community, but your current behaviour doesn't jive with what I understood as your reputation.
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As an Aged player of AW you will know the origin of the ACFS term "Disney Town".
What is so different here?
I play Euro time so never see the massive Rook Population explosion so ften reffered to here.
In fact lately the rooks have been on the defencive territorially.
But I must admit that I and a few Sunday afternoon tried to interest Knights in a fight by taking one of their Northern bases........................ ... no one showed up until we had taken a base and threatened a 2nd. yet due to some wierd bug we had LVT's on theiur town for 10 mins unnoppose before we took it.
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I've always wondered why heavy bombers are allowed to drop from below 10000ft AGL. I've got no problems with the medium bombers dropping low, but B-17s and Lancs dropped from way up there. Sure, there were exceptions (Ploetsi and the dam-busting missions come to mind) but they were the exceptions. In the MA it has become the rule.
As for Dok's argument, I think most of you are missing his point. He is not complaining about the ENY system, the mis-use of plane types, or game-the-game mentality. His argument, and it is a valid one, is that a large contingent of players argued for and got a system to "balance" the arena. However, now that the arena is being "balanced" by this system, the non-existant bish-knit truce, which in theory was created to balance the arena under the old system, is still in effect. You can claim it's not all you want but, as Dok points out, a look at the bar dar tells the story. It's not always like that, but it is quite a bit of the time. What is really pissing him off, if I read it right, is all those who claim otherwise.
To Dok, I will share a part of a post I put on our squad message board to a squaddie who was having similar feelings about a different issue -
"I fly for one reason - to shoot down other people. I could care less if that's from the side with 5 bases or 50 bases. It just doesn't matter. The enjoyment is in the hunt and the kill. If the bad guys are attacking one of "my" bases, no problem. I will shoot them down there. If we are attacking one of their bases, fine. I will shoot them down there. If there's a big furball between 2 bases, that is where I will go. It's what I enjoy. It's what is fun for me. As long as I can find somewhere away from a horde (or find a spot where the horde is even on both sides!), I am happy.
It doesn't matter what else is going on in the arena - do what is fun for you. If you like JABO, go JABOing. If you like heavy bombers, take em up and drop some bombs. Do it in support of a base capture or hit some target that you want to hit. But remember, in the end, it doesn't matter. This isn't real life and nobody cares tomorrow who wins today. "
Hate to see anybody leave because they think the system is flawed. The first thing to realize in an on-line game is the system
is flawed. The only person who thinks the game is perfect is the programmer. Everyone else will find a flaw. Play it your way and the heck with the way anyone else plays it.
Hammer
netAces.org (http://www.netaces.org) - Tips, Tactics and More!
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
But when I see the arena has balanced numbers - or even when Rooks are outnumbered - and still the Bish/Knits insist on this "imaginary" truce (which I accept isn't official, but it's still happening and still being condoned), at that point it's clear that there's a different definition of "balance" that you want. If you wanted parity of numbers, then when you got them there should have been fairly even distribution of numbers in the MA. But there wasn't. Not for over a week now.
I really don't think this was intentional. If there's a fight with Bish, I go there. If there's a fight with Rooks, I go there. I think most people operate the same way. Sometimes statistically it might seem that there is a "truce", but it doesn't really exist.
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Originally posted by flyingaround
Wow! Can't believe that using your "17 years" of perspective, you are quitting over ONE night of play. That makes it at least appear that you are jumping the gun a wee bit. ...
Please re-read what I posted. I said I was done in the MA for a while. I said I was still running Rangoon. I said I liked discussing the game here in the BBS. I did not say I was cancelling my account. That's all a far cry from "I'm quiting," a far cry from "giving up" on AH.
Please do not put words in my mouth. Please do not apply selective reading to support your case either. I say what I mean to say, it's very clear.
Also, read the follow-ups to my message. Who are the name-callers? Who took the first shots at personal attacks? Why accuse me of something others are doing? Why cross that dangerous line?
I'm sure that most of those who take the time to contribute regularly in the BBS do fly in a balanced manner. But I can read a map, as can you all. And I can count dots and compare that to the total player numbers. As can you all.
This wasn't over one night or one base capture - as much as some seem to want to twist it that way. It's over what a lot of others in the BBS are also lamenting over - the rotten attitude, poor sportsmanship, and overall grotesque gameplay that infests the MA. That moment over A12 last night was simply when I knew I had had enough of it. Nothing more, nothing less. If you read stuff I've posted in the BBS lately, this is all perfectly consistent.
The question shouldn't be: "How can you decide this sucks in only 2 months back?". The question really is: "Is the MA that sucky that it turned you off so quick?". Just because you're used to it doesn't make it acceptable.
But ... if this is the kind of MA environment you all want, then enjoy it. Wallow in it. I just choose not to sip from the same trough for now. I'll try the CT, I may drop in on the DA and brush up on my dogfighting, and I have a large scenario to run. Maybe things will improve by New Years.
-DoK
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"The reason this doesn't add up to you is you don't have 17 years of playing, observing, contributing, and designing this kind of game in your background. What I see and what you see are completely different."
Sorry to hear you are having a bad experience, but the elite (for lack of a better word, not meant to be disparaging) of any culture usually have a different perspective on things than the masses. You have a very specific scenario in mind you would like to play. The guys bringing in the B-17's were probably having a blast. If you're not having fun, it's time to go. Life is too short to put energy into an unnecessary thing like an online game, that is not positive experience for you.
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Originally posted by phookat
I really don't think this was intentional. If there's a fight with Bish, I go there. If there's a fight with Rooks, I go there. I think most people operate the same way. Sometimes statistically it might seem that there is a "truce", but it doesn't really exist.
I agree ... and I thought I made that clear, but maybe not. It is a symptom of the general attitude and behavior, not of specific planning.
Given the reactions to ENY, I think ENY reinforced the perception of constant, overwhelming Rook numbers. A perception I only used to see materialize one night a week for about 3 or 4 hours.
And this made it acceptable to gang up on Rooks all the time because, well, "they have numbers." Regardless of what looking at the roster might otherwise indicate. And once you get a gangbang rolling, its tough to stop. That whole group psychology thing.
-DoK
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Dok, you play in the CT?
Much nicer atmosphere, fights are great, strat is not really an issue. Its great, just a shame we don't get the numbers in there!
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Dok
From my perspective on that B-17 flight
All the bases within the surrounding 4 sectors had barracks porked, it required a 3 sector flight with a goon, I did one, it took me almost 40 mins to get there, that is literally a pain in the arse,
A12 was a constant trouble spot for the knits, the b-17 mission was the only one I have ever participated in, I never fly bombers and if you look at my score you would see that I probably shouldn't anyway... I look at it as trying to even out the playing field in that area, We had the same problem in the west with the Bishops, there was no truce, and if you ever were on the knits and saw someone claiming a truce, you can bet if I am on, I will be right there saying - fug the truce crap, this is supposed to be a 3 country war, ask anyone who flys regularly as a knit, most won't go along with it, only some of the new generals try to push it, it never really goes over, you are right, I see it all the time, there is a horde mentality, pretty much mostly people who want to vulch to pad their scores.
My opinion ack should be harder to kill to eliminate the vulching mentality
NwBie
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Man, you got a persecution complex.
There is no truce. Water flows downhill, and so do the fights in the MA. Which ever county is in the south/southeast gets extra special loving. Always has and always will.
....and who cares about low level b17's. It's ghey, but nowhere near as ghey as being able to strafe down a CV.
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As to the Truce, Id like to venture a guess as to what it is and its origins.
The Rooks have been somewhat dominate in the MA for a while now. This means Knight and Bishop pilots have been under the gun for a sometime.
You go to fly and everyone is above you, your always out numbered, your bases are porked and your sick of it. The reason in your mind is those Darn Rooks.
I would guess overall Rooks are presently "The most Hated" enemy. This means that Knights and Bishops prefer to fight and best Rooks. So, The tendency for many in both countries is to take it to the Rooks. This makes both Rook fronts hot with action. Thus appearing a truce in effect where there is not real truce.
DOK,
I can respect that if your not enjoying it, why do it? But, I think perhaps a break and wait to see what developes in the next couple months. As you know Winter is right around the corner for those of us in the North and that means alot more people flying. Things might change some then.
Iv enjoyed your recent participation in the community here and hope that you will be able to continue, Whether flying or not.
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Originally posted by xHaMmeRx
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As for Dok's argument, I think most of you are missing his point.
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Thanks, I'm glad someone got it.
And I'm sure the guys who drove those B17's had a ball - who do you think invented using B17's as terror weapons anyway? :D
But ... consider a couple things ...
First, one of the operating rules in AW was that if you knowingly use a bug or loophole in the system - you were banned. Period. Many times there were "two week" periods when serious bugs were in the system or FE and people knew not to use them ... or else. Heavy bomber formations were put in so that the guys who took the time to get those ships to proper altitude had some chance of surviving the mission. Using them on the deck is an exploitation of that feature. Pure and simple.
Next, the reason 3-country arrangements usually work is that they self-balance. If one country has numbers, the other two can shift to fight them. If one country is smaller than the rest, they can't be picked on as easy because who ever becomes the bully exposes a flank. Unfortunately, neither of these dynamics seems to be working with this population. If they were, ENY wouldn't have been needed - nor would the Sunday night Rook horde ever have come to pass.
-DoK
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Originally posted by Furball
Dok, you play in the CT?
Much nicer atmosphere, fights are great, strat is not really an issue. Its great, just a shame we don't get the numbers in there!
I plan to give it a try.
-DoK
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Originally posted by Furious
Man, you got a persecution complex.
There is no truce. Water flows downhill, and so do the fights in the MA. Which ever county is in the south/southeast gets extra special loving. Always has and always will.
....and who cares about low level b17's. It's ghey, but nowhere near as ghey as being able to strafe down a CV.
Please re-read everything I said.
And I agree on strafing CV's ... and I been saying that right along with you for a while. CV's and CA's should require at least one torpedo hit to sink.
-DoK
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Originally posted by Grimm
As to the Truce, Id like to venture a guess as to what it is and its origins.
The Rooks have been somewhat dominate in the MA for a while now. This means Knight and Bishop pilots have been under the gun for a sometime.
...
Yes, I guess I have the wrong impression about what I meant by "truce." I explained this a couple messages back.
-DoK
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Nothing for nothing Dok,
I have been flying sims since the the first MS Flight sim, then Aces of the Pacific etc. I played some AWIII and now AH, so you can step off the "I know it all, I'm the almighty authority soap box".
As for your crys about the rooks being outnumbered save them too because I think the whole community can chime in and say this hasn't been an issue for some time.
A few months back the 13th TAS did a little tour around the countries. We stayed Rook for about a month and a half and during the whole time I was seldomly outnumbered. If you want to cry about being outnumbered switch to the Bish for a while, then you will have something to cry about.
It was the hypocricy of people saying they wanted balance and, when given it, prove that wasn't what they wanted at all. What they wanted was HT to take away someone else's advantage under the guise of "restoring balance" to the MA.
LOL, you plainly say here that you are pissed because your advantage was taken away. Who's the hypocrit here?
And, for me at a personal level, well that makes the MA pretty intolerable. There are so many people working hard to make AH better - not just HTC. The guys like Fruda, Citabria, Waffle, Nopoop and so on who do awesome addons. The trainers, CM guys, and people who put together stats sites. And then you have this behavior of do whatever it takes so "I can get mine." That's one thing that does NOT add up.
Give me a break with the conspiricy theory. Every country has to deal with the occasional getting ganged up upon, the fact that you have lost sight of this just goes to show how long you have been accustomed to being in a country that routinely has the numbers and is doing the ganging.
This whine is perfect example that the ENY thing is working.
Next, it wasn't the field going down that bothered me. It's how it was done - by truce, by lawn-boy B17's, and with very, very little precision. It was that the feeling of "why fight it, just do like they do" started to creep into my equation.
Pllleeeeaaasssse is right. I lost count of how many bases Rooks have taken this way. Again the Hypocracy is yours.
You made this personal in your pompus reply, I simply disagreed with you. I'm not lookin to get into some show down with you, I could care less about that. I just disagree with how you are painting this picture.
The MA game play has it's ups and downs and always did and always will. Yeah dive bombing buffs is just gay, and you are correct about this being a issue, low alt "level" bombing shouldn't be an issue, they are easy targets.
Personally I could care less about what bases are captured and who is winning the war as long as there are places to find some decent fights I am happy.
You have had some good well thought out posts in the past, I guess we can chalk this up to MA frustration, we've all been there.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
And this made it acceptable to gang up on Rooks all the time because, well, "they have numbers."
Again, I don't think most folks see it that way. The horde mentality is there, but applies equally to all countries and equally against all countries. From a nit perspective, I also sometimes see both fronts busy...but I see that as a statistical anomaly.
Also, what Furious said about the current map is very true. The SSE side of the map lends itself to fights. Our bish border is pretty lame all the way around. So I am heading to the rook front more often--not because I think rooks "deserve" it or whatever, but just because the map is better designed for fights there.
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As to the Truce, Id like to venture a guess as to what it is and its origins.
There isn't any standing truce between knights and Bish. I know that this was attempted one Sunday night in response to the Rook RJO and from reading other posts about it, it was very hard to keep. I don't know of any attempts that have been made to do it again.
I don't think the Rooks are a hated enemy either, I think phookat sums it up..
Again, I don't think most folks see it that way. The horde mentality is there, but applies equally to all countries and equally against all countries. From a nit perspective, I also sometimes see both fronts busy...but I see that as a statistical anomaly.
Also, what Furious said about the current map is very true. The SSE side of the map lends itself to fights. Our bish border is pretty lame all the way around. So I am heading to the rook front more often--not because I think rooks "deserve" it or whatever, but just because the map is better designed for fights there.
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Originally posted by mars01
... so you can step off the "I know it all, I'm the almighty authority soap box".
... Who's the hypocrit here?
... Again the Hypocracy is yours.
I'm not lookin to get into some show down with you, I could care less about that. ...
What's wrong with this picture?
-DoK
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I don't know what it may look like, feel like, or seem like - but here is the way it really is (current as of about an hour ago for this tour) Here are the facts, and facts don't lie:
The Bishops have 87895 (29%) kills and have been killed 102725 (34%) times against all countries.
The Bishops have 47709 kills (54%) and have been killed 55471 (54%) times against the Knights.
The Bishops have 40181 kills (45%) and have been killed 47249 (46%) times against the Rooks.
The Knights have 108849 (36%) kills and have been killed 102476 (34%) times against all countries.
The Knights have 53373 (49%) kills and have been killed 54754 (53%) times against the Rooks.
The Knights have 55473 (51%) kills and have been killed 47716 (47%) times against the Bishops.
The Rooks have 102015 (34%) kills and have been killed 93562 (31%) times against all countries.
The Rooks have 47250 (46%) kills and have been killed 40183 (43%) times against the Bishops.
The Rooks have 54761 (54%) kills and have been killed 53376 (57%) times against the Knights.
All countries have 298775 kills and have been killed 298775 times against all countries.
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Dok
. agree 100%. AH is a technical master-piece and the crew at HTC deserve more kudos than they're getting for their efforts and talent however the player base isn't living up to the potential of the game they've got in their hands.
The growth of the player base has completely outstripped the community's ability to handle it with the tools available. AH is lacking the community support systems needed to turn the player base into a community - things like a visible and enforceable TOS, a trainer corp that noobs can find without effort and visible in-game monitors with the power to enforce the TOS. The result are visible in the MA and on these boards every day. It's too bad really, AH is the finest of its breed and it's played like a third rate 1st person shooter.
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The reason this doesn't add up to you is you don't have 17 years of playing, observing, contributing, and designing this kind of game in your background. What I see and what you see are completely different.
Like I said I'm not looking for a show down, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder or maybe I am reading you wrong and if that is the case I apologize.
I took your reply and the above quote as a pompous line of crap. You don't know me or how much time I have and that really isn't very relevant here.
Your mad because you got ganged and people were flying low level bombers. This has been happening to the Bish and Knights for quite some time all while the Rooks have enjoyed relative dominance in the MA for a while. The whole ENY crap started because the long standing Rook numbers broke the cycle and stopped it.
Then you are acting like some conspiracy is being plot against the Rooks instead of realizing it is cyclical and the dominant team always ends up being double teamed and at some point the dominance shifts to another country.
That's all I am trying to say, I'll leave it at that.
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Originally posted by xHaMmeRx
"I fly for one reason - to shoot down other people. I could care less if that's from the side with 5 bases or 50 bases. It just doesn't matter. The enjoyment is in the hunt and the kill. If the bad guys are attacking one of "my" bases, no problem. I will shoot them down there. If we are attacking one of their bases, fine. I will shoot them down there. If there's a big furball between 2 bases, that is where I will go. It's what I enjoy. It's what is fun for me. As long as I can find somewhere away from a horde (or find a spot where the horde is even on both sides!), I am happy.
It doesn't matter what else is going on in the arena - do what is fun for you. If you like JABO, go JABOing. If you like heavy bombers, take em up and drop some bombs. Do it in support of a base capture or hit some target that you want to hit. But remember, in the end, it doesn't matter. This isn't real life and nobody cares tomorrow who wins today. "
I couldn't have said it better myself.
A few days back I logged on after reading the 'Urchin' thread. For the two years I've been playing this game I have been annoyed by the way people treat each other here. Now even more so. So I said I was pissed and that I was going to kill some people. Funny thing was that after I landed 4 kills a while later, people asked me if I was still angry. Funny that.
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Originally posted by mars01
Like I said I'm not looking for a show down, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder or maybe I am reading you wrong and if that is the case I apologize.
I took your reply and the above quote as a pompus line of crap. You don't know me or how much time I have and that really isn't very relavant here.
...
It wasn't meant that way.
It was more meant to drive home the point that this wasn't about "one night" or "one base capture" sending me cartwheeling off the deep end. It was the bigger picture which really bothered me.
We're cool, mars.
-DoK
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and still the Bish/Knits insist on this "imaginary" truce (which I accept isn't official, but it's still happening and still being condoned
Wait, there is a truce so rooks have plenty of targets? Dust off the 51, I'm coming back!
Why would you want to quit? I got bored because I couldn't find a decent fight, just pigeons waiting to be shot off the fence.
Whooo hooo!!!
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Originally posted by Zanth
I don't know what it may look like, feel like, or seem like - but here is the way it really is (current as of about an hour ago for this tour) Here are the facts, and facts don't lie:
...
But what do these facts mean?
Do they factor in the deaths of swarms of low B17's?
Maybe there are fewer rook deaths because there are fewer rooks?
Maybe that's a lot of rook deaths for the number of rooks flying?
It's like a discussion in another thread about how plane usage changed from AH1 to AH2 ... without seeing sortie rates to each target area, the k/d are completely open to interpretation. I'm not disputing your numbers, I just can't draw any conclusions about odds as faced in the air from them.
-DoK
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And I thought not being good at this game/sim was a bad thing. It really isn't. Yeah see I go up and in a few seconds I come down in pieces! It doesn't matter if it's a hord, a bad eny night, or a simple 1 vs 1. In the end I die. Maybe we should change the game so that getting shot down is the point!. No hordes, "no he stole my kill", no check 6's. Just up and down.
Seriously...has AH always been this unhappy or is it just started at about the time i started posting?
Peace
Pillur
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I didn't play any yesterday, but I have been hitting Rook bases mostly this map for one reason - they are the closest ones where the action is. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way I remember it. The bish are (or were) mostly cutoff by the mountains. I have participated in exactly 1 mission that cut thru a steep valley to a bish base. Nobody was home so it was boring. The goon crashed at least a couple of times trying to get thru the mountains, the bish upped from an adjacent base and came in on the cap with 15k alt. Everybody lost interest and moved on.
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"Do they factor in the deaths of swarms of low B17's?"
Dok - everybody does this, including Rooks. This is an adjustemnt to game play since fuel can't be porked. I think it was predicted as such.
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Originally posted by LtPillur
And I thought not being good at this game/sim was a bad thing. It really isn't. Yeah see I go up and in a few seconds I come down in pieces! It doesn't matter if it's a hord, a bad eny night, or a simple 1 vs 1. In the end I die. Maybe we should change the game so that getting shot down is the point!. No hordes, "no he stole my kill", no check 6's. Just up and down.
Seriously...has AH always been this unhappy or is it just started at about the time i started posting?
Peace
Pillur
The games go through cycles.
Your comment also highlights something else that seems to be getting mentioned one way or another. That many players feel they'll be bad at this - or at least never get really "good" - no matter what. It is a steep learning curve - and that will never change, nor should it.
-DoK
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
The games go through cycles.
Your comment also highlights something else that seems to be getting mentioned one way or another. That many players feel they'll be bad at this - or at least never get really "good" - no matter what. It is a steep learning curve - and that will never change, nor should it.
-DoK
But it does highlight the need for a stronger set of tools for the community.
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What I do when I log on is look for where there is a fight. Since there is seldom a fight at a base that isn't being vulched (by enemy or friendly doesn't matter, it's no fun either way), I usually try to intercept the flow of enemy planes into a base being attacked. This way I can find a fight without having being ganged, or joining the gang. Some time later, I look and check for curiosity whether I'm fighting bish or rook. This week all the good fights have been against rook. The reason being, I think, that we got over those dang mountains early on and so therefore don't have to fly through oneo fo those passes to get to a fight. No truce in effect, just geography.
--Peregrine.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
But what do these facts mean?
You started out stating as fact something that was only your perception - an alledged truce between the Knights and Bishops, these statistics 100% refute that.
In fact, 54% of all the Bishops kills and deaths are not vs. the Rooks at all , but vs. the Knights. Additionally even a majority of Knights kills are vs. the Bishops. (Odd behavior for two supposed allies)
Like they say, you can lead a horse to water... If you want to be pissed off and quit the game - fine that is up to you - but lets give the consipracy theories a break.
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Originally posted by mars01
LOL so now you have had a taste of what it is like to be a Bish or Knight over these past several months and you quit, interesting.
The Rooks have had it easy, with the numbers etc. Most of the Knights and Bish have gotten used to being overwhelmed and adjusted instead of quitting, even you yourself said but yet you lost a base, so you quit. Something doesn't add up.
Ya... Rooks organize and plan.
Bish/Knit cry to poppa to make them quit.
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Originally posted by detch01
But it does highlight the need for a stronger set of tools for the community.
Yup ... well, scenarios are one of the great learning experiences and Skuzzy just put up the Rangoon forums, so I best get cracking.
-DoK
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Join me in campaigning for the Spanish Civil War arena/planeset, DoK. Viva Espania!
Our numbers will grow. Then .... next you know .... we see the I-16, the SB-2 and the He-111 modeled (HT and staff can add these to test the waters in some CT setups featuring those and the Emil, as well). Someone whips up a Spanish terrain to go with it. Then later the I-15, Chirri, He-51 and HS-123 are added and ... voila ... pretty well done. A dogfighter's paradise. (http://jollyrogers.info/VF17/spanfand.mid)
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Originally posted by Furious
Man, you got a persecution complex.
There is no truce. Water flows downhill, and so do the fights in the MA. Which ever county is in the south/southeast gets extra special loving. Always has and always will.
....and who cares about low level b17's. It's ghey, but nowhere near as ghey as being able to strafe down a CV.
But i have noticed that the Baltic map is the exception. The NE usally gets reset..Or pressed the hardest.
In some cases the NW get pressed. But i has been a rare occasion that the SE on Baltic got reset
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I didn't fly at all this weekend, but when I flew last week, it was Trinity that was up.
On this map ...
Knights in the North-East
Rooks in the South-East
Bish in the West.
Knight-Bish Front: Massively high mountains or long strech of water. A very BORING front. Most fights are between A199 (Knights) and A145 (Bish) and the CV that constantly flow between the two.
Knight-Rook Front: No massively high mountains and no long strech of water. There are too many fileds to list that present themselves with good fights and short distances to the fight.
DoK ... this is where you were you see the "implied" truce.
If the Knights were in the South-East, you would have observed and "implied" truce between the Rooks and the Bish ... ganging the Knights. This is a simple fact of this map and its design.
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Since your leaving and my stick broke, um ya looking to sell your old setup :D
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Originally posted by Misfit
Since your leaving and my stick broke, um ya looking to sell your old setup :D
He didn't say he was leaving. He said he wasn't gonna hang out in the MA for awhile. ;)
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Damn,
Thought this was another "Hanging it up for good" thread.
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What I find intriquing is the nature of the complaint...the rooks invented low level carpet bombing. I flew rook for a bit and as I posted thought it was a great bunch who worked very well as a team. They did two things very well (besides communicating)...
They constantly take the fight over the enemy bases that could counter the "main attack"...the obvious theory being if your busy evading or get sucked into a low level fight (often against just a few guys) you cant get alt and counter the main effort...
They also ran multiple NOE buff formations at the main target...basically the intecepting fighters take massive damage and have no alt...the inbound fighters have alt & E and pork the fuel/ammo/ack and the buffs carpet bomb the field and town.
Basically all you have is a whine saying stop using OUR tactics against us....
Now, I happen to agree with him, low level buff runs aren't in the "spirit of the game"....funny how it never bothered the rooks before however:)
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I sort of figured out that as soon as my enjoyment is determined by other people doing things that I approve of I don't have fun. Because they don't.
When I just fly for me and the hell with everything else I tend to have a good time.
But I don't do ALOT of hours.
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Originally posted by humble
...
Basically all you have is a whine saying stop using OUR tactics against us....
...
Guess you skipped reading in kindergarten, huh?
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Cry me river DoKGonZo. The stats say diffrent.
Also, it's mostly the rooks that have introduced and extesively have used some of the tactics you are now crying about. so, don't get so rightous now.
Go cry a river, the rooks dished it with out much complaint, now its time to eat...
as Sargent Barns said to the FNG.....
Quiet and Take the Pain.....
Chi
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Originally posted by Chitownflyer
...
Quiet and Take the Pain.....
...
And you would know about that phrase better than anyone, except in your case it's preceded by "Bend over."
-DoK
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>>I sort of figured out that as soon as my enjoyment is determined by other people doing things that I approve of I don't have fun. Because they don't.
<<
I'd go a step further. As soon as my enjoyment depends on another's actions, I've given them WAY too much control over me.
If someone has to act a certain way for my world to be good, it aint my world - its theirs.
And CT aint much different than MA - just a smaller scale. Come up with alt agianst another high flyer - after a few cursory passes a fw of his countrymen come higher. Egress and try to lure the first one away, but he sticks close to the team mate to make sure it stays 2 vs 1. Air advantage is hard to get away from no matter what arena. But it still was fun, even eaiting the tree :D
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As I suspected Dok, you are just mad that the Rooks can no longer run wild thru the arena and are forced to have the odds evened and you want to whine about it.
You completely ignore the factual numbers Zanth posted showing the kills are evenly distributed among the countries. Face it, you don't have free rein of the arena anymore and can't handle the truth. You should have tried to fly Bish or Knight for the last 6 months, then you might have some perspective.
BTW, it was great so see some teamwork from the Bish for a change. Seeing all the Rook whines on 200 as we rolled thru the Ruk ghetto was priceless.
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Originally posted by rpm371
As I suspected Dok, you are just mad that the Rooks can no longer run wild thru the arena and are forced to have the odds evened and you want to whine about it.
You completely ignore the factual numbers Zanth posted showing the kills are evenly distributed among the countries. Face it, you don't have free rein of the arena anymore and can't handle the truth. You should have tried to fly Bish or Knight for the last 6 months, then you might have some perspective.
BTW, it was great so see some teamwork from the Bish for a change. Seeing all the Rook whines on 200 as we rolled thru the Ruk ghetto was priceless.
You really aren't even worthy of a reply except that your response illustrates just so well the rotten, selfish, and narrow-minded attitude in the MA.
You lie about what I say (I didn't ignore anything Zanth said, I just don't agree with his analysis). You lie about my motives. And you compound all this with hopeless, veiled insults.
And you like rolling through ghetto's killing folks - great imagery - you must be a fan of the pogroms too, huh?
Thank you for making my point for me.
-DoK
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Ya know DOK,
I dont agree with most of the MA's attitude 99% of the time. This thread is no different. I am confused though what you were expecting as a response from the MA with this thread. I mean you should know better then anyone else that it was gonna be these kind of responses. I mean after all the majority of what the MA does is just repeat performances of things you did (Which you have no problem pointing out who did them first) back in the day.
Anyways im burnt myself on the MA, but posting why will not change it. <>
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So Dok, if HTC handed ya over the keys, what would you do to fix it?
DmdMax
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Originally posted by Misfit
...
Anyways im burnt myself on the MA, but posting why will not change it. <>
Just call me DoK Quixote, I guess.
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Originally posted by DMax
So Dok, if HTC handed ya over the keys, what would you do to fix it?
DmdMax
I'm curious too. Not from the standpoint of trying to find fault with whatever your suggestions are, either. Just interested in what a real vet's idea of what the MA could/should be like. So go ahead, here's your canvas, Dok - paint us a picture of an MA that would rock!
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Originally posted by DMax
So Dok, if HTC handed ya over the keys, what would you do to fix it?
...
A bunch of relatively easy things that myself and others have posted recently ...
- Implement a revised capture system along the lines Kweassa has suggested whereby the number of bases is reduced and cities are moved away from bases and must be captured first - by land, sea, or air - before a base capture is possible. Move the furball a sector or so away from over the airfeild, but still no further than a sector or so from any airfield. You can still get to a fight quick, it just won't be right overhead when you take off all the time. (i.e. you must capture C23 before you can catpure A23 ... so the first stage of the battle happens over and around the city with tanks, tank busters, tac bombers, jabos, ... everything.)
- Reduce the fuel mult to 1.5 since there will now be longer transit times to enemy bases.
- Bring back the night - even if it only lasts 20 minutes - especially if there will be some lasting land battles for cities ... allows for troops to be snuck in under cover of darkness. (This is probably the hardest item as it may require FE changes.) Keep things challenging.
- Field and city captures require 2 loads of troops. Anyone who contributed troops to the capture gets a percentage share of a larger perk award.
- Barracks are hardened targets (like ord ... assume the troops at least dug slit trenches) and require a large bomb to destroy or soften. Pork-based tactics are incredibly damaging to overall gameplay.
- City buildings are immune to small-calibre gunfire - you must bomb/rocket them down - or blast them down with panzers.
- Perk bomber formations. If you wanna Jabo a B17, you only get one life for free.
- Implement the ENY extension I suggested the first week it went in whereby it only affects captured fields. As long as you're flying from home turf (bases you owned when the map reset) you never get an ENY penalty.
- Change the "kills landed" messages to only state the squadron affiliation. You don't get your name in lights anymore, only your squad does. Also announce assists landed.
- CV's and CA's require at least one torpedo hit to allow them to be sunk. Maybe enable a perk award just for landing the torpedo on target - regardless if the ship sinks from it or not.
- Once a month have a "1942 week" where only pre-43 planes are available. Just to (a) let people explore the whole plane set, (b) let people learn more, and (c) keep the MA from getting to stale.
- Increase the chance of pilot wounds for Osties and M16's - these are, afterall, open-topped vehicles.
- Bring back accountability. Stuff like fleet hiding and off-map HQ raiders detract from the MA. These should be reportable offenses.
No one of these changes will affect the course of the MA. But taken together, they reduce pork-based tactics, reduce some of the idiotic crap that goes on, provide better battles with less vultching, increase the value and visibility of teamwork, and open up the tactical bombing game in many ways.
These are merely adjustments or extensions to what we have now to deal with the things that are hurting gameplay. I really don't think a complete re-write or re-structuring is needed. But the MA needs to be redirected. Getting things done should require skills and specialization and cooperation. Lawn-darting a barracks or B17-kamikaziing a CV doesn't fall into any of those categories. Grabbing territory is a good metaphor, but with the current arrangement and reward system, it slides very quickly to vultching instead of air assault tactics (i.e. CAP, screens, escort, tac bombing, torp boming, etc.).
-DoK
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Seems well thought out and reasonable enough. Thanks for the input. Perhaps your ideas can gain some traction at the Con.
DmdMax
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Quixote - an enthusiastic but impractical and idealistic person.
I am also a "Quixote" . Just seems to be getting harder and harder to stay enthusiastic bud.
One thing though, you atleast give something back to the community (IE Rangoon, etc), i cant say ive ever given anything, except i do believe i was the 1st in AWer to give the "" salute.:D
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Originally posted by Misfit
Quixote - an enthusiastic but impractical and idealistic person.
I am also a "Quixote" . Just seems to be getting harder and harder to stay enthusiastic bud.
...
Heh ... thanks ... I've more or less spent a carreer in technology doing stuff others said was "impossible" or "wouldn't work." And as it usually turns out I may not always be right but I'm seldom wrong. :D
-DoK
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Somebody print out Dok's suggestion and corner Hitech and Pyro at the Con. Be prepared to buy expensive Scotch, though....
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DoK,
1. I forget what number of feilds are the reset number to loose the war. Take that number + 2, harden them with flack rings of 88's out to 3-5 miles from the feild. Say 30 or 40 88's.
2. In dot dar for enime dar, give enime bombers a different color from fighters. You will find out what someones priorities are rather quickly. Do I save my hangers or chase fighters.
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Originally posted by bustr
DoK,
1. I forget what number of feilds are the reset number to loose the war. Take that number + 2, harden them with flack rings of 88's out to 3-5 miles from the feild. Say 30 or 40 88's.
2. In dot dar for enime dar, give enime bombers a different color from fighters. You will find out what someones priorities are rather quickly. Do I save my hangers or chase fighters.
bustr:
I like the first suggestion. Would make it much more interesting and (heres the word) realistic to say, have the five fields closest to HQ the most heavily defended.
The second suggestions I don't like. Dar is already to wonderful as it is. The idea that I can see what the enemy is doing 100 miles away (or more) from a friendly base is silly, or that I can distinguish friendly from enemies beyond some sort of visual range, or that my radar can peek over the rim of a canyon and around a mountain to see enemy aircraft. I understand there are certain limitations and trade offs to get the game in a workable model, but let's not look to more silliness. What you would end up creating, in addition to dweebs, HOers, gang-bangers, goon hunters, would be buff hunters. It would be the guys that say "to heck" with dogfighting, let me dive in a kill a set of buffs"...woo hoo. This is not to say that I think killing buffs is easy (in some instances, it definitely is not), just that it would give a level of tactical knowledge that is ludicrous.
Again, I really like the first idea. Would have a real serious and positive effect on gameplay. The enemy would have to make a determined assault to push the war over the top, not just luck into it.
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Dok, I don't see anything about preventing a side imbalance. That was the whole point of HT implementing the ENY adjustment. How would you prevent 1 side from continually running roughshod thru the arena simply by using overwhelming numbers? You know, the problem AH suffered for more than 6 months on a daily basis (not just Sunday nights as Rooks like to claim).
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Originally posted by rpm371
Dok, I don't see anything about preventing a side imbalance. That was the whole point of HT implementing the ENY adjustment. How would you prevent 1 side from continually running roughshod thru the arena simply by using overwhelming numbers? You know, the problem AH suffered for more than 6 months on a daily basis (not just Sunday nights as Rooks like to claim).
Well, here's where I may have a fundamental difference of opinion with HT. I don't presume to speak for him, but I'm guessing from what I've read that he put in ENY because the arena wasn't auto-leveling as it usually has. That was his approach.
I think ENY can provide some barrier to The Horde but, as we've seen, it sure ain't foolproof (uh ... read that any way you like ... hehe). By leaving ENY in for captured fields only, that makes it harder for The Horde to steam roll as once they start taking ground they start being reduced to high-ENY ships - if they only took ground by shear weight of overall numbers. If you're retaking ground, you do so with the best planes - meaning you can kick the Horde out of your backyard easier when your reinforcements arrive. I think this is closer to what HT really wanted ... but, again, I'm guessing.
As for the rest, I'm more or less convinced that a lot of the bad behavior in the MA - including the reliance on numbers - is due to boredom and apathy. There's no need to learn special skills - like torpedo boming. The environment never really changes, so you get stuck in ruts of what you do each night. The fights usually end up right over a field so then it degrades into one side half in GV's and the other side hovering above them. Base capture is a pretty linear affair - and you can get away with really crappy execution and still pull it off. And recognition is all for the individual - there's nothing really driving people to demonstrate prowess as a team - and that too gets dull. Yadda, yadda, yadda ...
Now hold on to your seats for this next bit.
I have always maintained that online gamers - especially sim-gamers who must work within real phsyical constraints - are the most cunning bastards on the planet. If you leave these people with a small set of things to do, they'll spend their time optimizing to get this done as efficiently as possible - even if the end result is complete dweebery.
If you challenge them, though, they'll spend more time learning how to do new things, rather than how to do the same old things with the least amount of effort. From what I've seen running scenarios, I know that 90% of the player base is fully capable of either leading flights, getting 3:1 kill ratios, doing precision bombing, or all of the above. I can't tell you how many times in events I've had CO's tell me what I expect them to do to win is "impossible" ... and a week later they do it.
We've each seen that whatever country we fly for is fully capable of coordinated, skillfully executed operations - be they base defense, base capture, whatever. And when you're doing those things the game is awesome - you post in the BBS the next morning about it, right? No horde was needed - or even thought about - you didn't need any more people.
So my theory is that if you provide more things to do and raise the complexity and/or difficulty of some of these tasks, reward achievement of these tasks for groups working together, then gameplay will revert to what we know it can be.
Shaking up the plane set once in a month is the same thing - when you don't have big level bombers and the uber-Jabo fighters - how do you get the job done? The tasks are the same, how you do them completely changes. Bombers need more escort, fighters are slower and turn better - a different kind of fighting. It provides variety - people will ***** and whine about any change, but watch how the play the game at the same time.
Hardening barracks reduces a common pork-based tactic - you want to hurt a base, do it as a group of 2 or 3. What's the difference? Well, 2 or 3 Tiffy's can do a hell of a lot more than just dive bomb. You don't have to run from the first fighter you see and head for the weeds. You don't have to make your 2.0 passes and then run away. This means CAP fighters can't go up alone either as 3 Tiffy's with any kind of skill will dice any solo plane.
Providing a lot of specialties to learn (torpedo bombing, nailing cities with an A-20, tank-busting, etc.) which MAKE A DIFFERENCE means newer players can master skills offline which make them valuable in the MA instead of cannon fodder. Right now you can solve a world of air-to-ground problems with a B17 at 500 feet. It lets new players feel like they're accomplishing something and part of something - and then they can move on to other things.
In other words, treat The Horde as an effect rather than a cause. Put in some safeguards to limit it's effectiveness, but my belief if that if you focus on improving the overall quality and diversity of the MA then the players will follow suit.
I know this isn't what a lot of you expect to hear from me.
-DoK
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I agree with your positions Dok, relative to the hard core sim community of AW/early WB days, but what about those that come here with more of a console gaming mindset? There was a lot of growth recently by people who might not even be able to list the allied vs. axis countries, or know a FW from a MC 205. Their experience is with Counterstrike or Navy Seals, and now this flying game.
As for the rest, I'm more or less convinced that a lot of the bad behavior in the MA - including the reliance on numbers - is due to boredom and apathy.
I don't think a lot of that type of player are bored or apathetic. People who are hard core simmers for many years - yes, increasingly myself included. The majority, perhaps not. Look at the percentage of people who play arcade style consoles vs. hard core sims. Look at excellent games like Battlezone 1 (probably the best combination of action and strategy ever fielded, IMO) that was neutered of its complications for BZ2. Or Deus Ex that became Deus Lite 2 console port.
I consider myself a simmer type but even something like Falcon 4 patch 12 edition is even beyond my personal level of sim interest. I’m sure there are Falcon 4 players who can’t imagine why, given my interest in military aviation, I wouldn’t gobble it up and instead play this “simple” WW2 game.
I would love to have variety, complicated real strat using already developed tools (factories, zones, roads, truck convoys, heavy bombers in heavy bomber roles, dive bombers in dive bomber roles, torpedo bombers…etc.) The type of things that would spread the action out and offer a variety of engagements, and there have been many potential solutions offered. Anything other than a band aid approach to a “broken” gameplay format when you get these numbers and a high percentage of “non enthusiasts” in the player base. But again, broken is relative. I don’t think it’s particularly broken for the masses. I imagine fixing it would unleash a ****storm of biblical proportions, so you wonder how much interest there would really be in doing the programming. On a side note, it would be nice to see HT and Pyro playing (and I mean really playing, not testing) in the arena more often, even at the cost of programming time.
Charon
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
And you would know about that phrase better than anyone, except in your case it's preceded by "Bend over."
-DoK
LOL...
Guess you skipped common sense in life...
I've flown on all sides and not a single thing you posted has any merit...just a whine cloaked in selfrighteous BS...
I don't think that the current system is perfect in anyway but it's a step in the right direction. The ENY is a minor factor in the gameplay equation...plenty of quality rides for all mission profiles in the 30+ ENY...as for low level bombing...as I stated you (the ROOKS) invented the tactic (and utilize more than the other two "countries" combined). As for "gangbangs"...yes it happens but the numbers speakfor themselfs...overall kills are pretty even.
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Gamers thrive on achievement, competition, mastery of skills, and recognition. Regardless of the format. All those things are in AH2, but many of them are hidden, not accessable, or just skewed enough to be counterproductive.
The only achievment openly recognized is the multi-kill mission ("wtg"). The minimum skill needed to master for that is the vultch. The only real competition for vultch kills is your own team-mates, or an enemy you can't out-number.
That's how I think I'd see AH2 if I was a new player, and the behavior in the MA kind of follows.
I think a lot of newer or non-simmers don't think AH2 is broken because (a) they get their kill fix (they can "win"), and (b) they don't know how much better the game can be if you work at it a little.
-DoK
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Originally posted by humble
LOL...
Guess you skipped common sense in life...
...
FOAD
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Gamers thrive on achievement, competition, mastery of skills, and recognition. Regardless of the format. All those things are in AH2, but many of them are hidden, not accessable, or just skewed enough to be counterproductive.
The only achievment openly recognized is the multi-kill mission ("wtg"). The minimum skill needed to master for that is the vultch. The only real competition for vultch kills is your own team-mates, or an enemy you can't out-number.
That's how I think I'd see AH2 if I was a new player, and the behavior in the MA kind of follows.
I think a lot of newer or non-simmers don't think AH2 is broken because (a) they get their kill fix (they can "win"), and (b) they don't know how much better the game can be if you work at it a little.
-DoK
As much as it pains me to admit it .... you do see an element of that in the CT, as well. It'll generally happen during the dead hours when a squadron gets together and comes to the conclusion that milking the CT map is actually so much easier than doing it in the MA (since the worst possible scenario for them to encounter may be one lone opponent and that'll only last as long as that player's stubborn streak).
So it appears to me that some players don't even need the buffer brag message to become the dregs. Then again, if it's part of the game design then perhaps they can't be refered to as such. Perhaps the lowest common denominator is the largest common denominator, after all. Can't escape it via anything short of a tightly regimented scenario.
I anticipate the new crop of CT staffers will stay on top of whether or not the map got porked overnight and fix it before CT primetime. It's hard enough to get new players there when everything is running exactly the way it should. ;)
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Originally posted by Arlo
... So it appears to me that some players don't even need the buffer brag message to become the dregs. ...
See, the brag messages don't have to detract either.
Consider the suggestion I had above. It just says "A member of the XXX squadron landed 1 kill and 2 assists in a Fw190-A5." Now the "wtg"s are for the squad.
Next, if that squad is in the top 10 in one of a number of stats (kills/death, kills/sorties, total base captures, etc.), add a line for each, such as: "The XXX squadron now ranks 3rd in kill/death with 2.34:1.".
One of the things from old AW which worked was that the first thing you saw when you arrived was who won last campaign for fighter, bomber, and squadron. You had people flying missions during peak hours (@ $12/hr!) to get that last point needed to win. Right now this stuff isn't very visible - we have much better stats, but it's not presented in a way which encourages gameplay.
So go that next step and add the MotD when you enter the game of the winners from last campaign in a number of categories. Give people something to achieve, compete for, other than the "me" oriented "wtg". Gamers - regardless of genre - want to be on that leader board. Even just once.
The tools are all there, they just need to be used different or better. Free-form arenas are tough to make work - but they can work. I think you need to know up front what values and goals you want to hold high for people to strive for, and you have to be prepared to keep constantly adjusting things - players adapt just so fast.
-DoK
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Ya know the Man be making some since here!
SING ON BROTHER!
Can he get an AMEN?
AAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEE ENNNNNNN!:D
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Quoted from -DoK-
I think you need to know up front what values and goals you want to hold high for people to strive for, and you have to be prepared to keep constantly adjusting things - players adapt just so fast.
DoK you just gonna hold them high up there to look at? Gonna do anything with them? Gotta admit they look great blowing in the breeze. You are talking molding the AH culture in a positive direction. :) The maps and stratigy thingys are the simple stuff. How are you going to lead the hearts and minds of the newbies to enjoy the challenging higher levels of this game while helping them to develop their skill sets?
Ya know I'm one of those "Ol Farts" that likes to see a business plan before I write the cheque.
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While I don't see any flaws with Dok's suggestions (on the surface anyway :)), I do believe there is one simple change that could greatly impact balance in the MA. Simply do away with the perk reward for resets.
In the real world, "hording" (Chinese Air Farce tactics) often is the best tactical move. In a game, it can become really tedious for those on the receiving end, when it continues for long periods. In AH, people are rewarded for this behavior....why shouldn't they make every effort to continue it?? Actually, the reset bonus is the biggest fundemental difference I see in the AH game system and the AW game system.
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Originally posted by bustr
DoK you just gonna hold them high up there to look at? Gonna do anything with them? Gotta admit they look great blowing in the breeze. You are talking molding the AH culture in a positive direction. :) The maps and stratigy thingys are the simple stuff. How are you going to lead the hearts and minds of the newbies to enjoy the challenging higher levels of this game while helping them to develop their skill sets?
[/B]
I'm going to try to influence things the only way I know I can more or less independantly. By designing and running the Rangoon '42 scenario.
Show players what the game is capable of and they're less likely to settle for less. Show them that they can do stuff they maybe thought impossible in the MA and they're more willing to explore what the game has to offer. Get players used to flying as a team instead of as loners and they're more apt to do the same in the MA.
When I said players were bored I didn't mean the game is boring - I meant they had learned all they needed to get enough success to satisfy them, and now they just want their fix for the lowest cost. Scenarios break that barrier - you have to fly stuff you may not like into situations which often ... well ... suck. And you have people counting on you to do your job. Stress, hard work, inconvenience ... but lots of fun and you learn a ton.
Beyond that I'm not sure what you want of me. I don't have the "keys to the castle" ... it's HT's game and it's his company. I know from working with him in the past that our ideas diverge as much as they converge so I expect at least half of what I said he completely disagrees with. The days when I could be online flying 5 or 6 hours a night are long since past.
-DoK
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the days I could be online flying 5 or 6 hours a night are long since past.
agreed. and you make very good points dok, keep up the great work.
if aces ever fixes this current mess, maybe i'll come and fly again.
[clicking to play WWII online]
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Dok,
Sorry your answer is all that anyone who truely cares about this game can do. I've been reading this BB for a year now, the members of it with some exceptions fall prey to feeling powerless in the face of the monumental effort that is needed to be the pathfinder for the new generation.
Dok, you know they are looking to you for that leadership. You have done this many times before. You have my vote on making an impact on the current culture.
P.S.
I've been in the Combat Theater recently. You still get saluted, allowed to up coalt before being engaged, and allowed to belly land by your protaganist after he shoots out your engine. Keep thinking I'm back in AW. Maybe send Arlo a few of those pesky MA hoard dweebs to learn how gentelmen make the game fun. Oh, yeah and they drink a better brand of scotch on the way to some great fights.;)
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Originally posted by eagl
That's too bad :(
I've had some fun recently deliberately avoiding mass gaggles, but unfortunately the high fuel burn multiplier heavily penalizes anyone
I second the high fuel burn thoughts. I had to use a BF110 w/DTs to avoid the hordes last night. Went back yard and picked off some Perk Milkers hitting factories behind their own lines and then flew home. 9 Sectors round trip.... but used the DTs, full tanks, and the E6B window to monitor my range status etc.
One thing that might help... is do your hunting at lower RPM and Manifold pressures. You can travel say 50-70mph slower... and save a bucket load of gas.....
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Originally posted by Zanth
I don't know what it may look like, feel like, or seem like - but here is the way it really is (current as of about an hour ago for this tour) Here are the facts, and facts don't lie:
The Bishops have 87895 (29%) kills and have been killed 102725 (34%) times against all countries.
The Bishops have 47709 kills (54%) and have been killed 55471 (54%) times against the Knights.
The Bishops have 40181 kills (45%) and have been killed 47249 (46%) times against the Rooks.
The Knights have 108849 (36%) kills and have been killed 102476 (34%) times against all countries.
The Knights have 53373 (49%) kills and have been killed 54754 (53%) times against the Rooks.
The Knights have 55473 (51%) kills and have been killed 47716 (47%) times against the Bishops.
The Rooks have 102015 (34%) kills and have been killed 93562 (31%) times against all countries.
The Rooks have 47250 (46%) kills and have been killed 40183 (43%) times against the Bishops.
The Rooks have 54761 (54%) kills and have been killed 53376 (57%) times against the Knights.
All countries have 298775 kills and have been killed 298775 times against all countries.
These are hard for my old eyes to read and old mind to comprehend...
Are you saying the Rooks (as a country) are the only ones with a positive K/D? If so I'm digging it !
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Originally posted by Steve
Wait, there is a truce so rooks have plenty of targets? Dust off the 51, I'm coming back!
Why would you want to quit? I got bored because I couldn't find a decent fight, just pigeons waiting to be shot off the fence.
Whooo hooo!!!
Well Steve, you alt monkey.... hurry back.....
We have not been wanting for targets that is for sure......
Also the JBs have gone over to the Knits... so there are some quality pelts to be had at that !
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I like the 1942 idea. but what about 1 day a week of 1942 AC? Make it a day or night other than the weekend.
Blutik
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Dok you're ideas are good and something else that is rare on this BB are that they're ideas to help the game and not just the all too often whines i read on this board.
You deserve a BIG SALUTE :aok
WarRaidr
The 4 Wing
AKA =Wings of Terror=
AKA "Martha's Cellmates"
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When it stops being fun ya gotta do whatever it is ya gotta do.
I, for one, grab another plane and get back up. A plane is a plane, and there's alot to choose from.
My squad picked and country and we're stuc....err....staying with it. Therefore, I fly whatever's available and enjoy every flight. Except those where I get CTD'd or screen freezes.
Ren
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"You really aren't even worthy of a reply except that your response illustrates just so well the rotten, selfish, and narrow-minded attitude in the MA. "
I would love to see more rotten selfish attitudes in the MA.... would sure beat having a bunch of little despot wanna be commanders and gangbanging lackies like we have now...
A lot less organized gangbanging would mean a whole lot more of good gameplay.
lazs
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>>Seeing people praise ENY for making the MA "fair" in one breath and then in the next finding a way to play around it and do the exact same thing they whined about to get ENY implemented to "fix the Rooks" is just pathetic. It's selfish and, worse still, it's dishonest. And dishonesty really pisses me off. <<
Dok:
Same as it ever was. And you have put words to feelings I have had from time to time. Yet I have also taken comfort in knowing actions by Rooks have prompted this kind of reaction from both sides of the opposition. Hell man, screw em! I've seen em both beaten down, only to have em pop up elsewhere where Rooks aren't. Its really funny, and sad too for a hot minute Kind of like vulching the same guy repeatedly; at some point it gets boring because there is no challenge. So, on Sundays they get after Rooks, and Rooks (at least this one) tend not to log on.
It bothers me that after a long absence from combat flite sims, you would leave, it don't seem right. You were one of those whom I heard a lot about when I first started in AW. Guys in my squad would share stories about you guys and youre exploits; funny as hell, and it seemed a lot of fun was had by many.
I hope you change your mind
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>>Cry me river DoKGonZo. The stats say diffrent.
Also, it's mostly the rooks that have introduced and extesively have used some of the tactics you are now crying about. so, don't get so rightous now.
Go cry a river, the rooks dished it with out much complaint, now its time to eat...
as Sargent Barns said to the FNG.....
Quiet and Take the Pain.....<<
LOL! How typical! The above is wrong on so many levels. And Chi, it aint even near time LOL!
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try thinking of yourself as a person instead of a rook for starters.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
try thinking of yourself as a person instead of a rook for starters.
I hope you're kidding.
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LOL!
...damn, now I have to clean coffee off my laptop screen.