Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kweassa on January 09, 2001, 04:26:00 AM
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Maybe realistic gun-jam options might help
all this discontent over F4U-1C. From what
I read, it says here:
" During the war the US force was never
able to find a 20mm cannon fully reli
able enough to their needs. The 20mm
cannons placed within P-38s were Brit
ish Hispano cannons.
One thing was in the Pacific arena wh
ere most types of American fighters w
ere used, 20mm cannons never were in
dire need. 12.7mm MGs would always do
the job against Japanese fighters whi
ch through the war was most always li
ghtly armored. Colt .50 MGs were actu
ally more than enough in most cases.
The US Navy tried 20mm cannons with t
he Chance/Vought F4U model 1-C fighte
rs, but it had some problems compared
to the 15, 20, 30mm cannons the Luftw
affe used in Europe.
First of all, the stability of bullet
path differed greatly over various al
titudes, causing relatively low chanc
e of hitting the target. Second, the
cannon front would freeze up often wh
en flying over 15,000 feet. The solut
ion was to attach seperate piece of g
enerators aside to the cannons which
would preheat the cannon barrel, and
these generators too, had their own
problems.
The result: F4U-1Cs scheduled for ope
rations requiring altitude higher tha
n 15,000 feet were assigned with "esc
ort" fighters consisting of F4U-1Ds,w
hich did not share this same problem."
Maybe modeling in this historical fact mi
ght give people some solace - and keep of
f all those Hogmongers.
ps) the same sort of gun jam options may
be useful with other fighers, other situ
atons too..
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Hhhmmmm.........on the surface, it sounds like a good idea.......but we would NEVER hear the end of the whining: "I can't kill anything 'cause the #@*~#@$% guns jam too much!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Somewhere down the road, I really do wish that the "historical" problems associated with the various aircraft would be included in a sim. For example, if an aircraft's engine was noted to have a high failure rate, and/or the aircraft had a high out-of-commission rate due to mechanical problems, factor that into the game somehow. Not sure how, maybe look at the overall number of sorties flown, calculate in how many WOULD have been flown but weren't due to mechanical malady, use that out-of-commission percentage to arrive at a formula which would determine a random number of inflight engine failures, collapsed gear on landing, gun jams, etc.
Would be frustrating, for sure, but folks seem to want "realism", and what is more real than having to worry about whether the plane is gonna get ya there, will everything work, will something break on me, etc?
Just food for thought............
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First the M2 .50 cal that most wwII US aircraft where fitted with is a browning m2 .50cal just as with colt guns being produced by browning (and general motors who made the m16a1 I was first issued). but the m2 50cal is still in use today and it is typically a browning even from day 1 (most of the early heavy MG's where brownings). The USN and USMC wanted the F4u's F6fs equipted with 20mm to help knock a kamakazi down faster. infact they put bigger AA gusn on the ships for just this reason in the later part of the war. the hispano had a problem in ETO at high alt due to extreme cold. the south and central didn't suffer this as bad due to lower flights and warmer climate. this is one reason the 38 started going more to the PTO and less to the ETO. The USAF put 20mm hispano's in the p51H for operation olympic (invasion of mainland japan). for the same perpose as the USN and USMC to stop suicide kamakazi's dead before a dead pilot in a nearly destroyed aircraft could coast into his target inflicing massive casualties and dammage.
The best solution to the f4u1c is for people to stop crying about it. all of the big gun planes have a problem low ammo. if you spray and pray your lucky to get a kill in them. you need to have good acuracy and make your shots count cuase you don't have alot of ammo. 50cals are effective at killing most planes. I wouldn't tank hunt, assualt hangers or go buff busting with them but they are great for clearing AAA with there lazer like preformance and for cutting another fighter to shreds. wait till the p51h ki-84 ki-100 ki-61 spit ix all get here. hell you thing f4u1c's are bad wait till you get hit with a stuka or airocobra and their big guns. I can't wait for some of the early war stuff myself the ju-87 stuka, the p-39 airocobra, the p-40 warhawk (kittyhawk), the huricane, the f4f wildcat, the ki-34 oscar, the a6m2 zero, the p51b, and the swordfish.
I mean realistically the f4u1c and f3u1d are perty much the same plane. maight as well just call it an f4u with the option of 4 20mm, 2 20mm and 2 50cals, 4 50cals, and 6 50cals. I bet there would be alot less whining. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Iam ammazed theres more crying about the f4u1c as there is a n1k2-j. the n1k2j is absolutely evil in its leathality with ammo options of 400/400 and 400/500 for it's 4 20mm type 99 cannons. It turns and climbs better then a f4u holds it's e better and is almost as fast. personally the most scarry thing for me is a high 109 or 190. usually the 109 and 190 pilots have been around longer have more skill (specially the 190 guys) they know how to use their alt and E and have some of the most leathal guns in AH (30mm). add the frank jack and tony to the japanese plane set and the f4u drivers have to fly in groups and use tactics beyond the head on.
the head on that brings me to another point of why people cry about the f4u1c, they try with thier 50cals and 303s to drop a chog in pure straight head on. guess what he's gunna win. your really want to mess mr head on chog drivers day up... avoid the head on. typically a head on is a 50/50 deal any way. you have the colision as a factor as well as the guns. i bet more then 75% off all succesfull head ons end in both players loosing. the best way to even attempt a head on is in a off angle rather then straight in. namely cuase he has less of chance to get you and even if you miss or don't kill him with a light pull on the stick your right on his six.
The solution to the chog is simple. if you don't like it don't fly it. Don't get into head ons with it unless your in a fw190a8 and stil then its the same thing 50/50 with a colision factor to boot. force it to overhsoot you in the head on leaving him infront, under, or infront and under you. Use your planes strengths against his weaknesses, and stay off his nose get on his tail. killing the f4u1c is no difrent then killling a f4u1d.
personally I love the f4u1c and d. lately Ive been spending more time in the n1k2-j p51d 109g10 and bombers. why becuase there already to many people flying the f4u iam better in a n1k2 and I want to try more aircraft while not ading to the whining about the f4u1c. I don't want it perked and wish peopl ewould save it for assualt or buff busting.
theres nothing funner then killing a f4 who is trying to Head on shoot you. I avoid the Head on by rocking my plane back and forth on the way to the merge slightly diving under him before he gets within gun range i nose my plane down then up rolling around him and out of his gun solution. then I roll over going over the top in a shallow immelman or high yo-yo puting me above and behind him. If he has to much speed I just press him and as he tries again and agian eventually he ends with to choices run or continue and die. If he has alot fo alt on you remember he has to come down to kill you. force him lower and lower if he does get lucky he will be so low one of your buddies will surely get him. but avoid the head on with him and try to get him to blow his alt and E the f4u doesn't do so hot slow low with no E. It works great with spits yaks n1k2s 109s 202s 205s and the zeke (remember the zeke is slow so keep that in account) hell i bet even a good f6f driver can do it.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
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This has been discussed many times over the last year within these forums. I believe it comes down to a thin line dividing realism and gameplay, gamplay getting the call since new players might get disgusted when guns freeze, or think that the game itself is buggy. I like realism as much as anyone else, but this would open a big can of worms...hell, we already have lengthy discussing about the lethality of the 20mm hispano's compared to the German equivilent, can you imagine opening pandora's box on reliability?
Just food for thought.
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I find funny that after many people here have asked for this quote, begged for this quote, refused to admit things until they saw a quote like this, laughed saying that they would only believe the unreliability of the hispano when they saw some quote like this...
I find funny, I say, that after 4 hours of this quote in the forum there is almost no answer from the Hardcore Pro-Hispano AH lobby. Except Ripsnort, of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
can you imagine opening pandora's box on reliability?
Of course. But you forget about one thing: The pandora box was already opened months ago and closed AT ONCE by half the community saying that the bad reliability of the hispanos wasnt true. They asked for data and quotes. I gave a source (a book about Corsairs, I will search for it again) where it was said just great that the hispanos in 1945 were still jamming all day long, especially over 10-15K feet. You have now a precise and self-explaining quote to read.
Mausers were lethal highly reliable guns. American Hispanos (British too at least at the first) were lethal guns with crappy reliability.
The difference on the damage caused is too much IMO. Its discussed, and the discussion is already sealed and in the grave. Hispanos are turbolasers because (Rant: they were allied),They had a high muzzle velocity and ballistic performance...or not?
Noone cared about the fact that AP and HE rounds have different ballistics in real life, yet in AH we have a mixed ammo for the Hispanos...WITH NO BALLISTIC DIFFERENCES (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Noone cared that the B17s were shot down with few mine shell hits from Mausers. ( Rant: As it was a german weapon, it cant be that good, isnt it?).
and now you PRETEND That noone CARES ABOUT MAUSERS PREMIER ADVANTAGE over the turbolaser? ITS RELIABILITY?
Oh, no sir. THe can of worms is open. Model the gun jamming, please, and you will **suddenly** see a good drop on the 20% of kills by the F4U1-c. No need to perk it, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
I find funny that after many people here have asked for this quote, begged for this quote, refused to admit things until they saw a quote like this, laughed saying that they would only believe the unreliability of the hispano when they saw some quote like this...
I find funny, I say, that after 4 hours of this quote in the forum there is almost no answer from the Hardcore Pro-Hispano AH lobby. Except Ripsnort, of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-09-2001).]
I think we already have an equivlent to malfuncions, such as your engine dying your guns failing, your wings falling off, and sabotage.... Bugs, Computer errors, Disconects (I know that last F$%#*&* router is set to poinson), and intoxicated players!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
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Ram, I don't think its being ignored by a 'said-Pro-Hispano' group of people, I believe the topic has been hashed over many times...again, it comes down to HTC's decision of gameplay vs realism, and how much of that would turn away customers.
It's my opinion that in a box sim, gun jams have its place, however in an online sim, it *could* be detrimental to membership. I think that's why you haven't seen it in Warbirds, or see it here...after all, these guys have been doing flight sims for quite some time, and this subject has been on the table countless times. It's their business, their judgement call. Personally, makes no difference to me.
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Originally posted by Mayhem:
I think we already have an equivlent to malfuncions, such as your engine dying your guns failing, your wings falling off, and sabotage.... Bugs, Computer errors, Disconects (I know that last F$%#*&* router is set to poinson), and intoxicated players!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Oh, but you forget that those were non.influenced by the pilot (PC User in AH)-
Still we have to see:
-Engine management (to put the engine over the red line doesnt mean you have no wep, means you have NO ENGINE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
-Gun abuse Jamming (If you fire a 20 second burst from your trusty Chog, your guns' breeck and muzzles will get fusioned (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
-Pilot endurance (so you can pull 2 6G consecutive maneouvers, and the third you notice that you are fading away breathless (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
-Kommandogërat: So if you aren't in a 190 be ready to get used to manage RPM, Mixture, engine Manifold pressure...and dont forget about the RED LINE!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-AMMO COUNTERS ON GERMAN PLANES ONLY!: Just try to figure this: Dweeb1 turns his Chog to headon the valiant Experten1 in his 190A. He goes for the headon, presses the fire button as usual at 1.5K to fire his 20 second burst to cover the valiant Experten1 in a flame of turbolaser...when he notices that after 2 seconds of fire his cannons have no ammo!!!...how he could know it? He had NO ammo counter!!!
Dweeb1: oh how bad is the realistic cockpit...I want the ammo counters back WAAAH WAAAH
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
may I follow?
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I smell an ego-fart. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Kweassa
We need a reference for that quote please.
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Originally posted by RAM:
Oh, but you forget that those were non.influenced by the pilot (PC User in AH)-
Still we have to see:
-Engine management (to put the engine over the red line doesnt mean you have no wep, means you have NO ENGINE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
-Gun abuse Jamming (If you fire a 20 second burst from your trusty Chog, your guns' breeck and muzzles will get fusioned (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
-Pilot endurance (so you can pull 2 6G consecutive maneouvers, and the third you notice that you are fading away breathless (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
-Kommandogërat: So if you aren't in a 190 be ready to get used to manage RPM, Mixture, engine Manifold pressure...and dont forget about the RED LINE!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-AMMO COUNTERS ON GERMAN PLANES ONLY!: Just try to figure this: Dweeb1 turns his Chog to headon the valiant Experten1 in his 190A. He goes for the headon, presses the fire button as usual at 1.5K to fire his 20 second burst to cover the valiant Experten1 in a flame of turbolaser...when he notices that after 2 seconds of fire his cannons have no ammo!!!...how he could know it? He had NO ammo counter!!!
Dweeb1: oh how bad is the realistic cockpit...I want the ammo counters back WAAAH WAAAH
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
may I follow?
First off all most of those you can't dictate ingame. People machines are defrrent. Fact You can make a 20cal 50cal 20mm 25mm glow red hot before it malfuntions if it's properly maintained (cleaned and lubricated). Ive even warped barrels and still been able to shoot rounds threw them.
Blackouts is an issue of a persons physical condition. An out of shape person will black out faster and faster then a in shape person. Pilots typicaly do feel strain under high G's but given enough time between high G loads thier tolerance will be the same. think ive gone over this to many times on the falcon boards.
fuel mixtures, rpm, cowl flaps trim management, all of these are really unnessesry things that take away from the game. and I still have to do it threw a keyboard mouse and joystick on a monitor that only represents about 40 deg by 40 deg rather then my full vision 185 deg by 120 deg plus the abilaty to turn my head. in alot more directions then snap views alow me. want to make it real have some one put a gun to your head if you get shot down they pull the trigger thats about as real as you can get. I want real flight models not a control system that requires me to invest 1300 bucks on a vertial cockpit plus a 300 dollar hotas rig and 3 quickshot's and a PC dash. mabey in 20 years we will have the technoligy for it but most of us are running 400mhz systems 128mb ram and a voodoo 2/3 or Nvidia TNT card. some of the luckier people like me have a full hotas rig, but most people are using twisty sticks. Ive nver liked trim its about 6 more controls I have to deal with most of the time I didn't and just used kentuky windage. Some of this would be neat but would die after a while and alienate more and more players. If you got every thing you wanted you would have your very own sim unfortunetly you would be the only one playing it. Oh we can also rule out most forms of autopilot on almost every plane. did i mention you the more youplay the dumber and more experianced you would have to get if you wanted to fly jap or german planes. training would be completely out of it cuase theres no fuel for you to train with.
Ammo gauges ...Have you looked into every WWII cockpit? Ive seen a few and some of the US planes actually had guages for ammo or a low ammo indicator light (most did I think) it wasn't an accurate number guage like we have in AH or warbirds (Air warrior uses a pointer guage like a fuel gage) but I don't think the Fw190 even later models did either.
and Ia am right you get enough malfunctions Due to bugs, power outages, comptuer errors, and disconects to account for some of the random stuff every one wants in game like malfunctions in engines, wings falling off ect.
The gun malfunction due to heavy use sound great but realistically they wheren't that common to begin with. it happened from time to time like engine trouble with your car. most planes didn't have enough ammo per gun to cook a barrel but yes from time to time it did happen it still does but it's rare. most of weapon malfuntions are due to missuse (Iam talking about using you gun as hammer) and poor maintanance.
I think its fair to give every one a perfect sample of the plane they want to fly. I think its a good idea that a player doesn't have to spend a week learning to manage his controls and guages and spend most of his time in the air dealing with cowl flaps trim and fuel mixtures. we would have to add in they could fly for years in the game and never ever see a bandit. and those that did see a bandit would have to have spent 4 hours flying there 15 seconds of fight and another 4 hours back. most people would be lucky to get 2 kills in the first year of the game. Want to unballance the game add in kamakazi's the plane counts as 2 bombs and the 2 bombs they carry are pre armed adnd will detonate when they crash great for scenerios but not for the MA. oh ya we have night lets add in fog so you have to land by intrament alone since this is janurary thats 12 hours a day of the game.
What you want would typically destroy the game for all but mabey 5% of the players. I mean ide love to see your ideas in a boxed sim myself with full true blue reality added in such as controls cowl flaps trim fuel mixuure ect. but not hear It would ruin the game for all but a very select and exclusive few.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
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If they'll ever listen to you RAM, I'll buy you couple of beers.
or for anyone else about LW or hispano matter ..
I have strong feeling that talking about super hispanos that can fire whole magazine empty on one long burst or peahost mausers wont have any effect.
'average customer' in AH is defined as american, who wants to fly those famed US irons..
of course those are not bad, but favored bit too much over others (somehow russians, germans and italians are on the same line, but US has wonderous weapons.. and miracle, brits too, at least hispano was theirs)
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Fishu, you're playing that scratchy old propoganda record again I see.
-Westy
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Originally posted by Fishu:
If they'll ever listen to you RAM, I'll buy you couple of beers.
or for anyone else about LW or hispano matter ..
I have strong feeling that talking about super hispanos that can fire whole magazine empty on one long burst or peahost mausers wont have any effect.
'average customer' in AH is defined as american, who wants to fly those famed US irons..
of course those are not bad, but favored bit too much over others (somehow russians, germans and italians are on the same line, but US has wonderous weapons.. and miracle, brits too, at least hispano was theirs)
We invented the freakin A bomb didn't we plus we had the nards to use it! twice!
We put a man on the moon! any other country can say the same? no! Ok then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
(I will say though I love german weapons I love the H&K usp the H&K 91 93 and g10 I currently own a sig sauer p229 .40cal gotta love german and swiss guns. and please don't any one mentiaon the glock piece a crap mattel toy tupperware microwave safe works better if you throw it at them austrian gun!)
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
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That was not nice Mayhem.
Fact: The A-Bomb was developed from Einstein's theory. Einstein was German. Most of the scientists that made the bomb possible were refugee or recent immigrants into the US (most fleeing from war torn europe).
The man US put on the Moon was there thanks to a GERMAN rocket scientist that the US captured after the war was over.
News for you: The Russians were first in Space. They also currently hold the record for having the only almost permanently manned object in space: MIR (which the US loves to throw negative propaganda at... they hate how they screwed up with SKYLAB).
"plus we had the nards to use it! twice"
Yeah, I can see your delight in the use of weapons of mass destruction on civilians. Mustve been a great challenge for the US military then. How sickening.
In short: ALLIED OPPORTUNISTS *grin*
On the good hand though, US does have good television (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Back on topic:
Gun jams would be fun to have, digital ammo counters should be removed (it MAY cure the spray and pray) and the N1k and CHOG should be perked (albeit, cheap perks). My personal view on these perks is that they shouldnt be perked due to popularity, but due to unbalancing factors. Any snapshot killing plane only encourages poor acm'ing, quaking and worst of all, if HTC adds early war planes no one will fly them because they would be facing late war monsters that spew turbolaser hispano around like lies at a political rally.
I applaud HTC for perking the CHOG. Im tired of shooting down the same plane over and over and over and over. Its a blue version of the energizer bunny! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Originally posted by Tac:
On the good hand though, US does have good television (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now THAT'S debatable! (However, Discovery, Wings Discovery, and History channel are very good)
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Originally posted by Tac:
That was not nice Mayhem.
Fact: The A-Bomb was developed from Einstein's theory. Einstein was German. Most of the scientists that made the bomb possible were refugee or recent immigrants into the US (most fleeing from war torn europe).
The man US put on the Moon was there thanks to a GERMAN rocket scientist that the US captured after the war was over.
News for you: The Russians were first in Space. They also currently hold the record for having the only almost permanently manned object in space: MIR (which the US loves to throw negative propaganda at... they hate how they screwed up with SKYLAB).
"plus we had the nards to use it! twice"
Yeah, I can see your delight in the use of weapons of mass destruction on civilians. Mustve been a great challenge for the US military then. How sickening.
In short: ALLIED OPPORTUNISTS *grin*
On the good hand though, US does have good television (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Back on topic:
Gun jams would be fun to have, digital ammo counters should be removed (it MAY cure the spray and pray) and the N1k and CHOG should be perked (albeit, cheap perks). My personal view on these perks is that they shouldnt be perked due to popularity, but due to unbalancing factors. Any snapshot killing plane only encourages poor acm'ing, quaking and worst of all, if HTC adds early war planes no one will fly them because they would be facing late war monsters that spew turbolaser hispano around like lies at a political rally.
I applaud HTC for perking the CHOG. Im tired of shooting down the same plane over and over and over and over. Its a blue version of the energizer bunny! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 01-09-2001).]
I knew someone would bring that at up they weren't the only ones to work on those projects and ya mite want to pay attention to whats on the statue of liberty. both of them became US citizens and I don't know many people that can claim there family was here for more then 400 years except native americans.
We still got to the moon no one else has.
I made the comment about the A-bomb in response to the "american gear was inferor wonder weapon" remarks sorry you took it to poorly and sorry I didn't buffer it a bit (I rarely ever water anything down Iam typicaly rude or crude sorry this I will admit).
About the A-bomb issue how many more people woulda lost there lives if we had invaded mainland japan both US and Japanesse lives. More people where killed in the fire bombing of tokyo then both atomic bombs combined and had we actually decided to invade we proably would have ended up back in the depression due to the loss of lives and resources. Not mention japan would have been depopulated in the worlds bloodiest battle ever. Serously think about How many japanese do think would have died if the fire bombings continued and american ground forces had invaded, mix that in with the racial tension and the desire to end the war ASAP. The US would have taken decades to recover, Japan would have never have recovered, drag russia into and you have the possabilaty of Japan being a communist 3rd world declining country. Drag the UK into it and you add even more injury to an already over stressed country that had to take the full burden of the war from day one. and I wount even touch what the japanese did to the chinese people and philipino people. Look what happened to germany at the end of two world wars. There country got broke in two for around 50 years. Got a better solution to end a conflict of that scale that wouldn't result in even more bloodshed and loss of life.
Least I had balls enough to serve in the Military. And getting back to WWII if the US had stayed out all of Europe including the Uk would be Nazi controlled. The entire jewish comunity would have been murdered off.
Hell you're from florida you don't even know how to punch a whole in a piece of paper in a voting booth. Bet youre a flaimin libral that cried about wanting the 10 commandments removed from Courthouses to boot.
You know what makes me sick people that constantly Attack the U.S. it's military and it's service men and women. and thats Excatly how I took your response. If I insulted you in some way with that post Iam sorry.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
[This message has been edited by Mayhem (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Mayhem, take your pills, and go lie down for a while. I didn't see anyone in this entire thread demean any US service members.
Im tired of shooting down the same plane over
and over and over and over. Its a blue version of the energizer bunny!
Now that's funny!! hehehe
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
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"The man US put on the Moon was there thanks to a GERMAN rocket scientist that the US captured after the war was over."
Um allow me an intejection of a correction...
Von Braun built upon the work of Dr Goddard. Von Braun read and copied everything and yes he then improved on what Goddard did but then Von Braun had the Nazi government backing where as Goddard did not have any till 1941-42. And then the US gov't wanted him to develope Jato and other light weight uses for rocketry.
-Westy
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"If I insulted you in some way with that post Iam sorry"
cc. nay worry, it just ticked me off that you seemed proud of it. =P.
BTW, i just live in florida (foreign student), and I was in Japan during the elections. Man was it hilarious! I just imagined the streets of Orlando and Miami flowing with old farts demading a recount (and THATS a disturbing thought!).
"Attack the U.S. it's military and it's service men and women"
Oh no, I just attack the pencilnecks in the government (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"pay attention to whats on the statue of liberty"
A french woman in a toga. Hmmmmmmm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Mayhem:
First off all most of those you can't dictate ingame. People machines are defrrent. Fact You can make a 20cal 50cal 20mm 25mm glow red hot before it malfuntions if it's properly maintained (cleaned and lubricated). Ive even warped barrels and still been able to shoot rounds threw them.
Sure. You can do it with a M61. Not in WWII with the highly unreliable Hispano M2. So worth of this point equals to =0.
Blackouts is an issue of a persons physical condition. An out of shape person will black out faster and faster then a in shape person. Pilots typicaly do feel strain under high G's but given enough time between high G loads thier tolerance will be the same. think ive gone over this to many times on the falcon boards.
Falcon boards? lol. Modern fighters carry anti-G suits. WWII don't (P51s and P47s used them in late 1944-1945, but then again 109 pilots sat with legs near the body thus negating some G effects (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
In WWII even the stronger pilot after 3 or 4 minutes of high G-loaded maneouvers is going to lose much of its capability. Get used to it, it was this way in World War two. So worth of this point equals to=0.
fuel mixtures, rpm, cowl flaps trim management, all of these are really unnessesry things that take away from the game. and I still have to do it threw a keyboard mouse and joystick on a monitor that only represents about 40 deg by 40 deg rather then my full vision 185 deg by 120 deg plus the abilaty to turn my head. in alot more directions then snap views alow me. want to make it real have some one put a gun to your head if you get shot down they pull the trigger thats about as real as you can get. I want real flight models not a control system that requires me to invest 1300 bucks on a vertial cockpit plus a 300 dollar hotas rig and 3 quickshot's and a PC dash. mabey in 20 years we will have the technoligy for it but most of us are running 400mhz systems 128mb ram and a voodoo 2/3 or Nvidia TNT card. some of the luckier people like me have a full hotas rig, but most people are using twisty sticks. Ive nver liked trim its about 6 more controls I have to deal with most of the time I didn't and just used kentuky windage. Some of this would be neat but would die after a while and alienate more and more players. If you got every thing you wanted you would have your very own sim unfortunetly you would be the only one playing it. Oh we can also rule out most forms of autopilot on almost every plane. did i mention you the more youplay the dumber and more experianced you would have to get if you wanted to fly jap or german planes. training would be completely out of it cuase theres no fuel for you to train with.
In short: you want realism in the things you like ,you dont want it on the things you don't. As RPM, Throttle, mixture, etc, mean you MUST pay attention to your engine instead firewalling it all night long, you come here saying that you lack the proper HOTAS.
I dont have a HOTAS, I have a CH F16 combatstic (THANKS SAW!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)), and rudders. When I started in Aces High, one year ago I owned a 2-button CH virtual yoke with one of the two buttons damaged. I claimed as strong as I do now for the highest realism affordable.
Worth of this point...=0 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ammo gauges ...Have you looked into every WWII cockpit? I've seen a few and some of the US planes actually had guages for ammo or a low ammo indicator light (most did I think) it wasn't an accurate number guage like we have in AH or warbirds (Air warrior uses a pointer guage like a fuel gage) but I don't think the Fw190 even later models did either.
answer:Evidently you have never looked into a WWII warbird cockpit, or even seen a photo (I've done both if you take a Buchon as a WWII warbird). NO plane modelled in AH ever carried ammo counters, except the german ones.
Worth of your point equals to...=0.
The gun malfunction due to heavy use sound great but realistically they wheren't that common to begin with.
buddy did you REALLY read the quote posted avobe? PLEASE take your time ,go up, and read it. It states clearly that the Hispanos in 1945 WERE JAMMING ALL DAY LONG. Especially over 15000 feet.
I think its fair to give every one a perfect sample of the plane they want to fly. I think its a good idea that a player doesn't have to spend a week learning to manage his controls and guages and spend most of his time in the air dealing with cowl flaps trim and fuel mixtures. we would have to add in they could fly for years in the game and never ever see a bandit. and those that did see a bandit would have to have spent 4 hours flying there 15 seconds of fight and another 4 hours back. most people would be lucky to get 2 kills in the first year of the game. Want to unballance the game add in kamakazi's the plane counts as 2 bombs and the 2 bombs they carry are pre armed adnd will detonate when they crash great for scenerios but not for the MA. oh ya we have night lets add in fog so you have to land by intrament alone since this is janurary thats 12 hours a day of the game.
first, yes, its unfair to give everyone a perfect sample of the plane in question. That does work against the planes that historically had two of the best advantages possible in a real life combat: Pilot workload reduced to almost nil, and complete trust in your machine because you know it will never fail.
Fw190 was one of the finest engineerign pieces of WWII, the best of its breed because allowed the pilot to FIGHT exclusively, not having to guide his ride across the sky. It was a HUGE advantage for the 190 on its day and we dont have it here.
And about Hispanos...its all said and quoted. HTC should take note of that quote. Believe me its MUCH better to AH to model true performing Hispanos with jammings ,poor ballistics due to mixed ammo, etc, that to perk the F4U1-C. That way the 20% of kills will never repeat itself: why? because the cannons wont allow spray and praying and 20 second bursts.
Perking the F4U1-Ct, BTW, will do a lot of good for the game itself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) but I think the realistic guns are better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I am hundreds of miles from home but will give the source when i get home... The civilian head of armement programs for the British said that the hispanos after the first mk 1's were extremely reliable as were American hispanos. He also claimed that german electric fired guns were inherently less reliable than conventional primers.
I will get the actuall numbers but reliability for the hispanos was on the order of no failures for thousands of rounds. British ammo, both brass and powder was not as good tho as american and the british guns had the chamber shortened to make up for "crushing" of the cases and subsequent light firing pin strikes.
lazs
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Ram: "In WWII even the stronger pilot after 3 or 4 minutes of high G-loaded maneouvers is going to lose much of its capability. Get used to it, it was this way in World War two."
Define "high G-loaded" please. Continuous 3G? 4G? 6G? or varying between all of these?
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gun jam...I have 8 of them ... go ahead.
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Lazs, read the quote avobe written. I've read that same thing more than once and twice, in spanish edited books.
The hispano reliability problem happened with the american version. Dont try to cover behind british data. The M2 HISPANO was unreliable as late as in 1945. Period.
Toad, all G moves, if done long enough are to exhaust any pilot sooner or later. Even 3 G turns (relatively low), with no G-suit, and done enough times in a row will end with the pilot breathless and falling out of conscience.
Of course the higher the G, the less endurance the pilot has.
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Well, I'm referring specifically to your quote about "3-4 minutes of high G loaded maneuvers".
What are you calling high g? 2G? 4G? 6G? What?
The time limit you specify is 3-4 minutes, so I don't think this statement: Ram: " all G moves if done long enough are to exhaust any pilot sooner or later."
is really a player until you define the G load. 3-4 minutes at 1.5G? at 2G? at 3G? at 6G? What are you trying to say here?
I'd also like to ask you your reference for this statement:
"Even 3 G turns (relatively low), with no G-suit, and done enough times in a row will end with the pilot breathless and falling out of conscience."
Is this from personal experience?
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G-suits only add an extra G or so..the rest is down to proper anti-G-straining techniques and G-tolerance (something you automaticly increase, if you get continually exposed to G's).
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"
[This message has been edited by Daff (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
Sure. You can do it with a M61. Not in WWII with the highly unreliable Hispano M2. So worth of this point equals to =0.
Blackouts is an issue of a persons physical condition. An out of shape person will black out faster and faster then a in shape person. Pilots typicaly do feel strain under high G's but given enough time between high G loads thier tolerance will be the same. think ive gone over this to many times on the falcon boards.
Falcon boards? lol. Modern fighters carry anti-G suits. WWII don't (P51s and P47s used them in late 1944-1945, but then again 109 pilots sat with legs near the body thus negating some G effects (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
In WWII even the stronger pilot after 3 or 4 minutes of high G-loaded maneouvers is going to lose much of its capability. Get used to it, it was this way in World War two. So worth of this point equals to=0.
fuel mixtures, rpm, cowl flaps trim management, all of these are really unnessesry things that take away from the game. and I still have to do it threw a keyboard mouse and joystick on a monitor that only represents about 40 deg by 40 deg rather then my full vision 185 deg by 120 deg plus the abilaty to turn my head. in alot more directions then snap views alow me. want to make it real have some one put a gun to your head if you get shot down they pull the trigger thats about as real as you can get. I want real flight models not a control system that requires me to invest 1300 bucks on a vertial cockpit plus a 300 dollar hotas rig and 3 quickshot's and a PC dash. mabey in 20 years we will have the technoligy for it but most of us are running 400mhz systems 128mb ram and a voodoo 2/3 or Nvidia TNT card. some of the luckier people like me have a full hotas rig, but most people are using twisty sticks. Ive nver liked trim its about 6 more controls I have to deal with most of the time I didn't and just used kentuky windage. Some of this would be neat but would die after a while and alienate more and more players. If you got every thing you wanted you would have your very own sim unfortunetly you would be the only one playing it. Oh we can also rule out most forms of autopilot on almost every plane. did i mention you the more youplay the dumber and more experianced you would have to get if you wanted to fly jap or german planes. training would be completely out of it cuase theres no fuel for you to train with.
In short: you want realism in the things you like ,you dont want it on the things you don't. As RPM, Throttle, mixture, etc, mean you MUST pay attention to your engine instead firewalling it all night long, you come here saying that you lack the proper HOTAS.
I dont have a HOTAS, I have a CH F16 combatstic (THANKS SAW!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)), and rudders. When I started in Aces High, one year ago I owned a 2-button CH virtual yoke with one of the two buttons damaged. I claimed as strong as I do now for the highest realism affordable.
Worth of this point...=0 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ammo gauges ...Have you looked into every WWII cockpit? I've seen a few and some of the US planes actually had guages for ammo or a low ammo indicator light (most did I think) it wasn't an accurate number guage like we have in AH or warbirds (Air warrior uses a pointer guage like a fuel gage) but I don't think the Fw190 even later models did either.
answer:Evidently you have never looked into a WWII warbird cockpit, or even seen a photo (I've done both if you take a Buchon as a WWII warbird). NO plane modelled in AH ever carried ammo counters, except the german ones.
Worth of your point equals to...=0.
The gun malfunction due to heavy use sound great but realistically they wheren't that common to begin with.
buddy did you REALLY read the quote posted avobe? PLEASE take your time ,go up, and read it. It states clearly that the Hispanos in 1945 WERE JAMMING ALL DAY LONG. Especially over 15000 feet.
I think its fair to give every one a perfect sample of the plane they want to fly. I think its a good idea that a player doesn't have to spend a week learning to manage his controls and guages and spend most of his time in the air dealing with cowl flaps trim and fuel mixtures. we would have to add in they could fly for years in the game and never ever see a bandit. and those that did see a bandit would have to have spent 4 hours flying there 15 seconds of fight and another 4 hours back. most people would be lucky to get 2 kills in the first year of the game. Want to unballance the game add in kamakazi's the plane counts as 2 bombs and the 2 bombs they carry are pre armed adnd will detonate when they crash great for scenerios but not for the MA. oh ya we have night lets add in fog so you have to land by intrament alone since this is janurary thats 12 hours a day of the game.
first, yes, its unfair to give everyone a perfect sample of the plane in question. That does work against the planes that historically had two of the best advantages possible in a real life combat: Pilot workload reduced to almost nil, and complete trust in your machine because you know it will never fail.
Fw190 was one of the finest engineerign pieces of WWII, the best of its breed because allowed the pilot to FIGHT exclusively, not having to guide his ride across the sky. It was a HUGE advantage for the 190 on its day and we dont have it here.
And about Hispanos...its all said and quoted. HTC should take note of that quote. Believe me its MUCH better to AH to model true performing Hispanos with jammings ,poor ballistics due to mixed ammo, etc, that to perk the F4U1-C. That way the 20% of kills will never repeat itself: why? because the cannons wont allow spray and praying and 20 second bursts.
Perking the F4U1-Ct, BTW, will do a lot of good for the game itself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) but I think the realistic guns are better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Don't think Ive ever heard of an M61 a m60 yes. The ma duce (m2) is a 50 caliber browning the same one they put in US WWII air craft and the same as we use today. Every fire one? i don't want a quote I want hard true DOD statistics on the failer rate. excluding malfuntions due to poor maintance lubercation poor ammo care poor loading or inccorect spaceing and timming.
G tolernce and recovery have nothing to do with g-suits. Typically it means if you give it a few seconds or up to a few minutes you can pull as many G's as did before provided you never made gloc. all a gsuit does is force blood up to your brain to keep you from suffering Gloc. with gloc where not talking temporory blindness blindness where talking you went to sleep got knocked out, your out cold ect.
I thought this was a wwII mass multiplayer combat flight simulator not flight simm 2000, where even taxiing the runway is a chore. Some of those feature I like but not in this enviroment. Your in the monority here. Like I said I like those options just not here.
yes I think your plane should represent the perfect ::whatever your plane is:: without malfunctions. imagine the gripe fest that would be if peoples guns jam, thier wings fall off. thier engine die ect. again your in the minority.
the issue with the f4u1c is basically you got your butt blown away by one, your pissed and you want the plane banned. personally i think Ive been shot down by evey plane in the game. I don't want any of them banned or perked. Ive heard these gripes in all the other games and I will hear them in all the future ones. What will every one say if for the next two weeks every one wanted to fly say spitfires or zekes. with a minority of people (say 5%) that where flying another plane or planes. what you want to ban them or perk them out? I say leave well enough alone and just add more aircraft instead of limiting the curent set. I realy don't think this game has enough Air craft in it as is. Theres also people that lean to Theater of operations over another ETO or PTO. I'll admit I really lean towards PTO. In my honest opinion I think they should jsut have a late war f4u with the option to choice you guns (4-20mm, 2-20mm with 2-50cals, 4-50cals and 6-50cals). Iam willing to bet the f4u1c will fall back abit once the novalty of carriers whares off.
You want AH to be what you want it to be. hell I do to. Unfortunetly it doesn't work that way for either of us unless we make our games (I'de to e able to as iam sure you are but we probably both can't). on a personal not i don't like constatly making adjustments to controll settings and I hate being force to figet with the nobs and controlls on the inside of my cockpit. thats me. I mean there things i feel that are wrong like troop alt (should be 500 feet we do it in airborne school). I think some of speeds are off (never gotten my f4u to the magic 417mph). theres also limitations both on your hardware as well as in the code and at the server.
If you have a problem with the f4u1c learn to defeat it, rather then go on the witch hunt to get it porked perked or outright removed.
Again fact is you got your but kicked buy it you don't like it and you want it killed. Iam sorry your no the best player, Iam sorry you can't learn to defeat it, and Iam sorry you're wants don't come before every one elses.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
[This message has been edited by Mayhem (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Toad the 3-4 minutes of high G exposure is meant to be between 3-4G in not very well prepared individuals.
The exposure to higher Gs than those are much more pronounced in Aces High, at least in the TnB birds, because the pilot doesnt suffer for the forces as in real life.
I've never pulled Gs piloting a plane...but if you go in a rollercoaster you notice how hard can get to raise the hands. THe Gs involved never go over 2-3Gs, and it ends with you putting a feet on the land feeling disoriented, and a bit tired. No disorientation in AH. no tiring in AH. Only pulling a stick you cant feel what it is in real life.
About the personal evidence...lol I wish I had it. But for reading quotes, WWII stuff and aviation stuff in general, one really ends knowing something...not much, stil...something.
Mayhem only three things
the Hispano M2 is NOT (i repeat NOT) the 12.7mm colt MG. It is a completely different weapon. So stop it dead on tracks because you seem to be talking about a completely different thing that I am doing.
the M61 is the standard six-barreled gatling 20mm gun aboard virtually all the cannon-armed planes in the US inventory (I can think only about the A-10 as a cannon bird with different cannon). I advice you to read some more aviation stuff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And about the F4U1-C hell no, I dont die by far as I get kills on the Chogs.
it is simply that Its getting old to see the same bird everywhere and the same 1K spray and praying roadkill tactic. If you can't understand it...well. Better for you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW I dont want to see the Chog perked. I want the american Hispanos performing as the sources say they did in WWII: So bad and awful that the navy turned back into the 50 cals until the WWII had ended.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Ram,
Just so I'm sure I understand you then:
If I go out and do 3-4 minutes of 3-4G maneuvers in an aircraft, without a G-suit, I will "lose much of its (my) capability"?
Further, you are telling me (based upon reading books about WW2) that if I do 3-4 minutes of 3-4G maneuvers without a G-suit I will end up unconscious?
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Originally posted by Toad:
Ram,
Just so I'm sure I understand you then:
If I go out and do 3-4 minutes of 3-4G maneuvers in an aircraft, without a G-suit, I will "lose much of its (my) capability"?
Further, you are telling me (based upon reading books about WW2) that if I do 3-4 minutes of 3-4G maneuvers without a G-suit I will end up unconscious?
Huhm, no, not unconscious, I didn say that.
If not used to G effects, you will be highly disoriented and with quite reduced endurance and SA, for sure.
You can expect your abilities to be VERY reduced,too.
And used to them and trained or not, any exposure to G loads reduces your tolerance to further G-loads. A trained individual will endure more time under high G activities than a non-trained...but eventually he will also get tired.
So if you go into the 5Gs you can expect to feel that your head doesnt work as well as it should (I.E. your reflexes suffer, and you can't expect to work as good as at 1G). over 6G the blood doesnt reach well your head (its stuck on your legs) and after some time (10-20 seconds?) the blackout starts to happen.
That is if you start from a perfectly fresh situation, with no G-suit. if you have been in a close combat pulling 3-4Gs for long time, you can expect to have less tolerance to more Gs, so you can expect the blackout to happen before, and to have your reflexes ,SA, and orientation, very affected.
Also remember that here you can turn your head 180º in a 6G turn, to look behind. In real life you'd be pressed enough to stand the forces, let alone to look back.
Please note I didnt say that you'd end unconscient with 3-4G loads. I said that you will end with reduced capabilities, wich is true.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Gunjam flying HTC arenas???
He told a pretty funny story about a remote control boat of Hitechs at JackedIN.
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Originally posted by RAM:
Toad the 3-4 minutes of high G exposure is meant to be between 3-4G in not very well prepared individuals.
The exposure to higher Gs than those are much more pronounced in Aces High, at least in the TnB birds, because the pilot doesnt suffer for the forces as in real life.
I've never pulled Gs piloting a plane...but if you go in a rollercoaster you notice how hard can get to raise the hands. THe Gs involved never go over 2-3Gs, and it ends with you putting a feet on the land feeling disoriented, and a bit tired. No disorientation in AH. no tiring in AH. Only pulling a stick you cant feel what it is in real life.
About the personal evidence...lol I wish I had it. But for reading quotes, WWII stuff and aviation stuff in general, one really ends knowing something...not much, stil...something.
Mayhem only three things
the Hispano M2 is NOT (i repeat NOT) the 12.7mm colt MG. It is a completely different weapon. So stop it dead on tracks because you seem to be talking about a completely different thing that I am doing.
the M61 is the standard six-barreled gatling 20mm gun aboard virtually all the cannon-armed planes in the US inventory (I can think only about the A-10 as a cannon bird with different cannon). I advice you to read some more aviation stuff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And about the F4U1-C hell no, I dont die by far as I get kills on the Chogs.
it is simply that Its getting old to see the same bird everywhere and the same 1K spray and praying roadkill tactic. If you can't understand it...well. Better for you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW I dont want to see the Chog perked. I want the american Hispanos performing as the sources say they did in WWII: So bad and awful that the navy turned back into the 50 cals until the WWII had ended.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-09-2001).]
sorry forgot about the vulcan we have another name for it in the army. I thought you was refuring to an M60
again the only catologed M2 is the browning m2 50cal bmg. the hispano doesn't use the m2 numbering in Us military to my knowledge. and What I said about putting that many rounds threw the gun getting it that hot and warping the barrel was done with an M2 the same one used in the old vitage WWII air craft. You do not have that much ammo per gun. now freak accidents and stress induced malfuntions due to defects or imperfections do happen from time to time. iam basically asking you to show me proof that they where that bad becuse they simpley sucked not mantaince problems lubercations or spacing and timming errors.
hell I can't hit anything past 800 with canon I may fire a few round to see if I can spook the guy into turning. now 50 cal on the other hand Ive nailed people out to 1.2K and i got lots of ammo to spray and pray with. i don't get those options with the chog or any other heavy cannon equipt fighter. I need to make my shots count. lag has a big factor here to.
You say you want this and why, iam telling you I don't and why.
You say the hispano's suck Iam asking for true blue DOD statics that aren't including Manufaturing defects, Poor maintance, poor lubercation and incorect spacing. Ive always been under the impresion from all the books I've read that the hispano's where superior to the 20mm used by the japanese and germans.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
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Originally posted by RAM:
Huhm, no, not unconscious, I didn say that.
If not used to G effects, you will be highly disoriented and with quite reduced endurance and SA, for sure.
You can expect your abilities to be VERY reduced,too.
And used to them and trained or not, any exposure to G loads reduces your tolerance to further G-loads. A trained individual will endure more time under high G activities than a non-trained...but eventually he will also get tired.
So if you go into the 5Gs you can expect to feel that your head doesnt work as well as it should (I.E. your reflexes suffer, and you can't expect to work as good as at 1G). over 6G the blood doesnt reach well your head (its stuck on your legs) and after some time (10-20 seconds?) the blackout starts to happen.
That is if you start from a perfectly fresh situation, with no G-suit. if you have been in a close combat pulling 3-4Gs for long time, you can expect to have less tolerance to more Gs, so you can expect the blackout to happen before, and to have your reflexes ,SA, and orientation, very affected.
Also remember that here you can turn your head 180º in a 6G turn, to look behind. In real life you'd be pressed enough to stand the forces, let alone to look back.
Please note I didnt say that you'd end unconscient with 3-4G loads. I said that you will end with reduced capabilities, wich is true.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-09-2001).]
Your not taking into account recovery time. back to back turns are the same as one continues one. however give yourself enough time between them seconds to minutes depending on how many G's you sastained and for how long and you can pull another turn with the same effect. the way you make it sound the airforce has to retire pilots becuase they used up all thier g's and they can't pull any more ever. I think i know what your talking about and thats sustaining a high G load turn and then going imediately into another with little or no recovery time. and Yess your right if he doesn't get the recovery time he will black out faster becuase it becomes one long exposer to g forces if the pilot doesn't take the time to recover.
one You're exuasted if the g load was high enough and need a break and two the blood has not fully spread back into the body so its mostly still in your lower body.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
[This message has been edited by Mayhem (edited 01-09-2001).]
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"I've never pulled Gs piloting a plane...but if you go in a rollercoaster you notice how hard can get to raise the hands. THe Gs involved never go over 2-3Gs, and it ends with you putting a feet on the land feeling disoriented, and a bit tired."
That's only because you arent used to it.
Go on the same rollercoaster 10-15 times in row and you wont notice it.
I can pull 3-4 G's repeatedly in 30 mins without feeling "exhausted". I can look around happily at 4 G's, because I anticipate the forces on my neck.
What drains me, is the mental effort to fly the maneuvers accuratly and correcting mistakes, not the actual G's.
Once I do get exhausted though (both mentally and physicly), my G-tolerance drops.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"
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Well, Ram, if you read it in a book, you must be right.
I have pulled about a G or 5 in various aircraft without G-suits and more than 5 in aircraft that had G-suits. At G levels below 6 in either situation I really haven't experienced what you describe. I've never flown more than about 30-40 minutes of continuous acro though, so maybe it happens after that.
The only times I remember being "highly disoriented" were because I screwed up the maneuver, not because I was pulling G's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I don't remember being so tired I couldn't pull more G's and do a few more maneuvers after 30-40 minutes of playing around either. Usually I had to quit because I was running out of gas or the airplane was due back.
I don't remember my grayout point changing during a ride either, as long as I was ready for the G-load and was doing my "grunt". It always happened at about the same G load at any point in the ride or on any given day.
I just don't remember Ram: "your reflexes ,SA, and orientation, very affected." either. It seemed to me that whatever I could do at the beginning of the ride I did better at the end of the ride as I got more familiar with the particular airplane and practiced the maneuver.
I do remember being pleasantly tired about 30 minutes after landing. Sort of like the feeling you get after a good game of tennis or riding a bike for a while.
Probably though all that G-pulling messed me up permanently and that's why I can't remember that stuff.
After all, you read it in a book. I must be wrong.
-
Ok the two weapons are cataloged as
Hispano M1 20mm Cannon
Brownming M2 .50cal Machine gun
not sure about our current 20mm and 25mm chain guns. But I now for a fact we still use the Browning M2 50 cal.
------------------
Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
-
Ok. These discussions are fun but I do hope
it doesn't get quite outta hand(though it d
oes seems too late for that -.-)..
'kay, somebody asked for where I got that i
nfo about the 20mm cannons on F4U-1C, Well,
it wasn't from a book actually. I got that
info from Raomi who also flies in AH,and is
a professional WWII aircraft historian who
has his own column in an aviation magazine
in our country. I am a dweeb myself and aft
er I saw some of the discussions upon "uber"
planes, I inquired about it to Raomi. So pe
rsonally, his quote about the 20mm cannons
seemed reliable to me(which also seems rel
iable to RAM).
I think low reliability and gun jams are ju
st about enough for people to tolerate in a
'game'. The ultra-realism issues Ram suggest
s might be actually fun, but it also seems j
ust a bit hard for a lot of players. I mean,
we can't all be super-aces. There are always
more "dweebs" like me(well, polite and good
mannered ones, anyhow) who'd enjoy the compe
tition and effort but would freak out if it
was almost unmanageably hard...
I remember gun jams existing in a few flight
sims, and I think it wasn't that bad. I reme
mber the nervousness I felt when I had a pla
ne on target and suddenly my guns would jamm
up, and that experience was actually stimula
ting.
Personally I thought it might be a reasonabl
e solution if reliability to hit the target
and gun jams were modeled in. That way:
1) The general performance of aircrafts wil
l not be altered
2) But still would give things to think ove
r which might highly enhance the differing
preferences over aircraft selection.
The "spray and pray" certainly does not seem
much fair. I mean, unfair in a totally diffe
rent manner than the usual "waah you're flyi
ng a uber plane!" whining. Whining about gen
eral aircraft performance does seem pathetic
, but I think there is some reason to compla
in about the "spray and pray" issues.
The gun jams and reliability issues would ca
st a slight disadvantage to the planes which
problems will be modeled in, but I think it
seems manageable enough.
I think it's a negotiable point between "whi
ners" and "hogmongers" .. maybe a bit 'o win
win scenario even.
Well, at least thats what I thought.
-
So, in other words, your "quote" as you originally represented it, was not really a quote. Let alone from a source we could confirm as reliable.
See I laugh, because I can provide quotes from reliable sources and studies that say the exact opposite. As I already have here on this board several times. In fact over and over again.
And most of these are directly from the US Navy who were actually flying and using the equipment.
Alot of equipment in WWII had reliability problems initially, if not most. That doesn't necessarily represent the service life of the equipment. Deal with it.
I am as sick of the -1C, as alot of other players in AH.
But lets try to stay away from the misleading statements, half-truths, and the downright pure unadulterated Luftwhine propaganda.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 01-10-2001).]
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Vermillion, you want sources? You want to know why do I claim that I HAVE READ SOURCES saying that in 1945 the Chog had unreliable guns?
Read:
"Corsair aces of world War 2"
Text by Mark Stirling&Tony Holmes
Osprey Publishing
ISBN (Complete book)-84-8372-185-6
ISBN (short booklet, I have it in spanish): 84.8372.229-1
You are Happy now? You have a book to look into. Its curious that the quote I can read in my book of it signals facts that match almost virtually the cannon problems that the quote posted at first.
I already gave the name of this book before and noone took the time to look for it, or even aswer. Now you have it again. Look at it and READ THE Chog STORY TOLD BY Joe D.Robbins, VBF-8, of his sortie in 8-april-1945. when he tried to fire his hispanos NONE, ZERO, NO, VACUUM, NIL, OF THEM FIRED!
Same happened to the members of his flight. out of all the F4U1-Cs in that mission none of them was capable to fire a single round to a Japanese plane. THe cannon was damned unreliable!!!!
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-10-2001).]
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"Well, it wasn't from a book actually. I got that info from xxxxx..."
Poor form. I suspected as such. It was grammatically and contectually better than anything I recal from the Gamestorm boards, but it holds about as much weight - in other words, zip.
I have to laugh though, RAM hoisted himself upon this petard so willfuly and beautifully. Seems RAM will believe just about anything from anyone that finds fault with US equipment or capabilites back in WWII but cannot accept the same in reverse. This topic sure removed what vestidges of credit I had left to give you RAM. You've been sure working at making yourself look like a baffon. Live with it now.
And RAM, your instant your refering to? I don;t beleive it. Pur bull. I put as much wieght into that story that not one shell was able to be fired as you do for the Galland/Lowell combat encounter.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 01-10-2001).]
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I have a "quote from reliable source" that in reality NONE of the FW 190s and Me109s never carried any guns !!! They weren't even fitted for it !!! REMOVE ALL THE GUNS FROM LW PLANES NOW !!!! I HAVE A RELIABLE QUOTE !!!
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
fdski:
Actually your last post seems like pure BS. However after reviewing the evidentiary criteria for this thread, I have concluded:
“fdski is correct”.
Look!!!!! Another quote supporting your position. What you said must be true!!!!
Who else besides me thinks that Kweassa is a Pseudonym?
Hooligan
-
Originally posted by Westy:
"Well, it wasn't from a book actually. I got that info from xxxxx..."
Poor form. I suspected as such. It was grammatically and contectually better than anything I recal from the Gamestorm boards, but it holds about as much weight - in other words, zip.
I have to laugh though, RAM hoisted himself upon this petard so willfuly and beautifully. Seems RAM will believe just about anything from anyone that finds fault with US equipment or capabilites back in WWII but cannot accept the same in reverse. This topic sure removed what vestidges of credit I had left to give you RAM. You've been sure working at making yourself look like a baffon. Live with it now.
And RAM, your instant your refering to? I don;t beleive it. Pur bull. I put as much wieght into that story that not one shell was able to be fired as you do for the Galland/Lowell combat encounter.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 01-10-2001).]
Go back to the marihuana, Westy...I just gave you a book name and ISBN. Before you talk and discredite a guy with name, surname, who was in WWII and tried to hunt a zeke in a F4U1-c and couldnt because his guns didnt fire....before that, I say, why dont you try to READ THE BOOK?.
oh, and I havent supported that quote because it said Hispnos were unreliable, but for the fact that I had already read things like those in more than a couple of books. You have one of those books' ISBN, read it or shut up.
-
BTW I know this is a lost campaign. THe pro-US bias of some guys in this forum is absolutely infame. THey call for sources and when sources are posted thy act as if they doesnt exist.
Bah, you know what?...you can have your damned ubersuperduperturbolaser on the Chog. But the blasterbird will be perked soon ,and the X-ray planes will be in a great part a thing of the past.
If you want perk planes before realistic gunnery and reliability, its your bussiness. ANyway soon I wont have to fly thru clouds of Chogs. So in the end, I will be happy.
-
Originally posted by RAM:
BTW I know this is a lost campaign. THe pro-US bias of some guys in this forum is absolutely infame. THey call for sources and when sources are posted thy act as if they doesnt exist.
Bah, you know what?...you can have your damned ubersuperduperturbolaser on the Chog. But the blasterbird will be perked soon ,and the X-ray planes will be in a great part a thing of the past.
If you want perk planes before realistic gunnery and reliability, its your bussiness. ANyway soon I wont have to fly thru clouds of Chogs. So in the end, I will be happy.
Na Iam just tired of all the anti-American crap I see on these boards. Makes me wish we could just sever all the telephone lines and satilite contections with the rest of the world. Then we can stop waisting all our dam taxpaying money on other countries trying to help them so they can bash us. then we can jack the rent up on the UN and tell them if they don't like it move.
With the guns issue. I don't want a quote from a book. I want DOD historical stats. books can be wrong or inaccurate the DOD historic stats are fairly accurate.
I don't think it's an issue with the gun your screaming about, Your just another anti-chog guy.
BY the way Ram read my last post on Gforces did I hit on what you where talking about?
------------------
Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
[This message has been edited by Mayhem (edited 01-10-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Mayhem (edited 01-10-2001).]
-
mayhem
The cannon in the chog is an M2 20mm.
The M2 HB you fired in the infantry has a much heavier barrel then the WW2 aircraft version.
Each 50 in the infantry has at least one guy that can open the cover and clear a stopage. Its reliablility does not have to be nearly so high to be effective.
Putting in the Hog C was like putting a hispano armed spitfire into a battle of britain game. Or a T160 armed Sabre F into a korean war game. If you dont model the problems that they had with both weapons loads in the game then you scew the game all over the place. In both cases the dificulty that was had are well know and would probably preclude introduction of the load out into a reasonably designed game. Unless the down side is modeled.
In the case of the 1c the pitfalls of the load out are not as widly accepted. Not as irifutibly stated. But certainly the US had no end of trouble with hispanos in WW2. If US had a fighter mount Hispano that performed like the 1c then it would have been a clear cut decision to adopt it for all US aircraft.
Since all production corairs were eventually Hispano armed it is tempting to understate the difficulty that they had making it work during the war. Yet the Sabre and the Spitfire where both eventually succesfully armed with the cannons in question. The 1c should never have been introduced into the game with out its achilies heel. Saying its about its ability to launch from carriers ignores that the 1c has been very dominant since introduction with a few new plane intro breakes.
So does perking it really solve the probelm? Not from the point of view of someone who wants to see the planes represented as accuratly as possible. But as its battery is unballanceing and pilots realise that and want a piece of it and it gets used enough to make it anoying. It is an interesting experiment to see it Makeing people spend points on it will reduce its usage. As I understand it that means that the plane will be so cheap that it will be basically free. But no perkpoints will be earned while fling it. My bet is that people will fly it anyway.
The guns are just too big an advantage if you are used to having them.
Interestingly if you fly in H2H and give everyone 10 times ammo, the hog c pretty much disapears.
Maybe we should just give everyone else 10 times ammo to ballence out the modeling that the 1c is missing in gun reliability?
None of you would complain about that I guess.
-
Originally posted by Pongo:
mayhem
The cannon in the chog is an M2 20mm.
The M2 HB you fired in the infantry has a much heavier barrel then the WW2 aircraft version.
Each 50 in the infantry has at least one guy that can open the cover and clear a stopage. Its reliablility does not have to be nearly so high to be effective.
Putting in the Hog C was like putting a hispano armed spitfire into a battle of britain game. Or a T160 armed Sabre F into a korean war game. If you dont model the problems that they had with both weapons loads in the game then you scew the game all over the place. In both cases the dificulty that was had are well know and would probably preclude introduction of the load out into a reasonably designed game. Unless the down side is modeled.
In the case of the 1c the pitfalls of the load out are not as widly accepted. Not as irifutibly stated. But certainly the US had no end of trouble with hispanos in WW2. If US had a fighter mount Hispano that performed like the 1c then it would have been a clear cut decision to adopt it for all US aircraft.
Since all production corairs were eventually Hispano armed it is tempting to understate the difficulty that they had making it work during the war. Yet the Sabre and the Spitfire where both eventually succesfully armed with the cannons in question. The 1c should never have been introduced into the game with out its achilies heel. Saying its about its ability to launch from carriers ignores that the 1c has been very dominant since introduction with a few new plane intro breakes.
So does perking it really solve the probelm? Not from the point of view of someone who wants to see the planes represented as accuratly as possible. But as its battery is unballanceing and pilots realise that and want a piece of it and it gets used enough to make it anoying. It is an interesting experiment to see it Makeing people spend points on it will reduce its usage. As I understand it that means that the plane will be so cheap that it will be basically free. But no perkpoints will be earned while fling it. My bet is that people will fly it anyway.
The guns are just too big an advantage if you are used to having them.
Interestingly if you fly in H2H and give everyone 10 times ammo, the hog c pretty much disapears.
Maybe we should just give everyone else 10 times ammo to ballence out the modeling that the 1c is missing in gun reliability?
None of you would complain about that I guess.
BZZT wrong the military model # standard for the 20mm hispano is an M1 (sometimes AN-M2 and mark 1 and mark 2)cannon the m2 (usually called affectionately a ma-duce) is a 50 cal. (Some very early runs it was a .30cal) The barrel and the entire gun on the browning is perty much unchanged since it was invented. your right about the jam but I've fired thousands of rounds threw a M2 and never had a malfuntion hell i dam near melted a berrel and I put more rounds threw it then any wwII aircraft carried to get it that hot and even with a warped barrel it still fired (bullet trajectory was a little off and wierd cuasing tracers to fly in a corkscrew pattern but it fired). If the militar HBARed the 50cal then they have done so since Ive been out. Some of the 50cals in the army have been in service for over 50 years (not alot only a few) hell my first m-16 was made buy general motors and had a GM logo on it instead of the Colt (was an early pre 1970 early production run)
the 20mm and 25mm modern weapons I was refuring to where chain guns not vulcan multi-barreled cannons (the army has one bit it's used strictly for air defence and is towed or mounted on a m113. the bradly uses a 25mm and some veriants of the uh-60 as well as the ah-64 use the 20mm. the ah-1 uses a tri-barreled 50cal seen some that had the old .308 cal (7.62mm nato)
You know why don't people just learn to beet the dam thing. hell when I fly it i feel like spit yak la5 and 109 bait. Just learn to beet it. crap Ive seen guys get 10 kills in a jug why they learned the plane and leanred how to beet other with it. Is it so dam hard. first don't go for head ons you have a 50/50 chance and a posible colision involved. wish people put as much effort into learning to kill it rather then cryig about it and there wouldn't be as much problem with it.
[This message has been edited by Mayhem (edited 01-10-2001).]
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Ram,
The Pro-US plane choices the community enjoys is because of ordnance load outs primarily, the P47D in AH can 2500 lbs of bombs and 10 rockets, the F4U and P51D can carry 2000 lbs. of bombs and rockets.
You need to re-focus your anti-Americanism on getting HTC to give you some FW190F models, or turn back the clock and encourage the Germans to build a better ground attack rocket.
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RAM, I think I have this book at home, so please tell me what page your talking about, it might help me find it.
However, I will still say, that one anecdotal (or even several) stories related by a pilot (or even worse an author that just spoke to a 75 year old pilot) are not worth the paper they're written on in regards to technical facts. Hell, I can produce hundreds of stories of Hispano's working flawlessly.
I can also produces pilot accounts of F4U's, P51's, and P47's, out turning Japanese pilots in planes like the Zero or Ki84. So does that mean that we need to change the Chog flight model to reflect this? Of course not.
Anecdotal stories are not equivalent to research programs and actual testing. Sorry, but its just the way it is.
RAM, I suggest you buy the book that contains the Report from the Joint Fighters Conference held in late 1944, and edited by the same guy who wrote America's Hundred Thousand. It contains a full chapter on ordinance, comparitive effectiveness of the US .50's and 20mm's, the Navy's representative discussing they're (the Navy) experience with these guns, and even a down right "debate" (read arguement) that the Navy and the Army representatives got into over this issue. In fact, many of the things you bring up constantly, were raised by the Army pilots, and were subsequently shown as false or inaccurate by the Navy representative.
Show me data from an ordinance study, a reliability study conducted during the war, or comments and data from an expert in the field and I will take them into consideration.
But this crap that is constantly posted as "fact" in nothing but that... crap.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Ok.. so let's go for worst case scenario and say that the Hispanos jammed at twice their normal rate say..... every 1200 rounds or so and that the heaters were problematic so that they might freeze up at over say 25K about 10% of the time. So every sortie... if you fire more than 1200 rounds from each gun... expect a jam.
Oh, and the Hog actually had lighter ailerons (less stick effort) than the 190 since it had "boosted" ailerons.
Doran
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Here is the best online resource as regards to WWII guns:
http://www.geocities.com:80/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-in.html (http://www.geocities.com:80/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-in.html)
-Westy
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Pongo:
Early models of nearly every gun had their problems and of course so did Hispanos. In time these problems were corrected to give the guns acceptable performance. So the 1Cs did not in fact have an Achilles heel in terms of gun reliability. I don't currently have access to a copy of the joint fighter conference book but if memory serves they state that the AN-M2 guns had a stoppage every 2000-2500 rounds and required gun heaters (which were installed in the US aircraft) at higher altitudes.
Vermillion:
Could you please do me a favor and post the reference quote for gun stopages from the fighter conference book?
Hooligan
-
Hooligan.
Yes many succesful types had teathing problems with a given gun. I pointed that out quite clearly in my post. You state that the 1c did not have this trouble. Or that it did but it was corrected.. For such a common weapon the M2 Hispano is at best enigmatic. Was it reliable or not. Did they have to heavily grease the ammo for it to work or not. Was it skiped for use on the P51 because the 50 was better or because the 20 had serios problems.
Im still looking. But I wouldnt bet in favour of the gun being acceptabley reliable nor in favour of it having the killing power it still has in AH.
"Wasting no time, Johnson headed into the middle of the formation, and as he got closer, the Germans saw him. Two to the FW 190s broke off sharply, but the lead aircraft stayed on course. Johnson closed rapidly to about 1,000ft(305m) dead astern, putting his sights squarely on the intruder. Two short burst of 20-mm fire found thier mark, but were not fatal. The Fw 190 took the hits in its right wing and drifted into a slow turn to port. The range had narrowed to 500 ft(152m), and the next five-second burst delivered the lethal punch. Hits were observed all over the fuselage, with black smoke pooring from the engine. The doomed German fighter-bomber nosed down into a near vertical dive and exploded upon impact.
"
An encounter between a P61 and some Fws from Wings of Fame volume 15.
Now its hard to make comparisons of course. Because in AH if a HogC did that to a fw, 9 seconds fire from 300 to0 150 yards... the pilot would likely be imediatly killed which would imediatly blow up the Fw. But still. That is 1/3rd the ammo of a hog c at 300 yards or less. Lots of observed strikes on wings. Would anyone one here expect a plane to fly away from a hit like that in AH.
Still looking.
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blah blah
the problem is with the damage models, not the guns in my opinion
especially true with the vehicles i think
the panzer damage model is pathetic, as is the ostwind. From a frontal attack, 20mm cannon should not be able to kill a panzer IV yet it can. I hear some people even killed panzer with m16 by firing point blank from the front. Same with the mm16 and m3, i have seen m16s or m3s take more than 5 .50 cal US bullets without dyin, one of those should at least kill the driver or engine or gunner most likely.
In a2a engagements i dont think theres a big deal, but for a2g stuff i think theres a serious problem with damage model.
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Pongo - that's just a story - nothing more.
for all practical purposes - pilot could have been a hamburger - just one leaning backwards.
As for 20mm effectiveness, someone posted a little RAF document about 109 they found with 20mm shell in it ... actually one hole after one...
it went though the tail, all the good toejam in the back, pilot armor, pilot's ribcage, ENGINE BLOCK and exited out front.
1 shell.
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
Well I have to say this,because I am surprised (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Tonite I have destroyed a tail of a P51@200 yards with two 20mm pings.
And, incredible as it may sound, a N1K2@150 yards with one single 20mm ping...that really amazed me (hehe It must be that it was "a shot in a million", and as always I trusted in the force (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
Then again I must admit that I also got at least 4 pings on a close fight against a N1K2's wing@less than 100 yards, and he "only" lost aileron and flaps.
All that happened with me in a typhoon.
Only some AH facts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/luke3.gif)
(http://www.navegalia.com/hosting/000e0/illumm/straffing.gif)
[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 01-10-2001).]
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I'd just like to add a few things.
When the British and US Hispanos seperated in manufactering styles, the nature of the British system lead to a more reliable (in what precentage that is, you'd need to take into account combat conditions)
The British ditched lubricating the rounds all togather once they decreased the breech gap by 1mm (the same was done to the US gun) for fear of jamming issues with the colder Europe weather. Lubricating gels such as grease become gummy and sticky in cold weather and hence the problem. So the gun tended to work much better.
The US decided to continue the heavy use of lubricants on their M2 Hispanos, which generally caused no problems due to the planes that used them and their condtions. It's wasn't a big issue on the P-38 in Europe either though, even if it did jam because of the M2 .50s. Because the USN was operating in the much warmer Pacfic the guns tended to work just find, until reaching the colder temperatures at higher altitudes where the lubrication gummed up preventing reliable gun preformence. Gun heaters fixed that for the most part.
It is interesting that the gun charging system never comes into question during these "jamming" discussions. It is much suspect thing and less random occurence, more likely "run down" the electric system via triggers of most planes during prolonged fire(apparently this was a fairly large drain on the batteries). I'm going to dig through some old magazines where I saw accounts of this, but I know this was a problem with the P-40, P-38, and F6F.
In terms of fire, 5-6 seconds of fire is a very long time...IIRC the drain on the electric system could reach the point where there was no longer enough power to engage the electric triggers, killing the guns until the system was charged enough to continue (And with the early P-40's they were trained for short bursts for this reason -- believe I heard that from an account from "Tex" Hill but I'll check and see what I can find) at which point they would be no problem as long as the electric current was delivered.
It's a bit more linear thing then gun jamming but I'm only aware of .50 armed US planes having this problem. Then again I never heard of it being fixed either though because it only caused problems with very heavy trigger use.
And I hate to burst the bubble of those that hope that gun jams would cripple the Hispano but most US planes after '43 had electric chargers that could be used(if there was no serious hang ups, best for use on misfires) to re-prime the gun, giving the ability to clear jammed guns. Other US planes used loaded charge round (or a normal round if not available) pre-loaded on the ground that, when the safety was removed from the trigger, was used to prime the gun for useage by starting the ammo belt into the gun (which is why nearly all planes fired short burst before entering combat) I'm not sure which the USN used for charging (and no clue on the British) but it's probably more then likely the electric charger (which doesn't require firing a live round)
One more thing...about the joint conference thing...there is a direct quote in their over the M2 20mm's ability to penetrate armor at 500 yrds...and that is perpendicular, 0-30 degree shot on a range (given the M2's muzzle velocity, and at that range it is not capable of exceding 30 degrees) that is less then all but the top armor of the PzIVH. (I've posted it before) So if we're going to argue that it's a reliable source for the Hispano's reliablity, (which Pyro, Verm, and many others have quoted and I very much believe it to be a reliable source) then perhaps we should argue of the M2's exaggerated armor penetration within the game? Btw it also notes the .50 cal as well at the same range, and it should be capable of a roof penetration (according to the joint conference and the Pz IVH's armor specs) if a 0-30 degree perpendicular shot is made to the roof armor (although it would prolly do knil)
- Jig
-
Oh one more thing about MG/Cannon vs armor...I believe from observation that whether or not penetration occurs is based on weight of fire. I don't believe it's accumulative damage (other then loss of secondary items that do not lead directly to the destruction of the tank) because of the lack of effect most other guns have. This might also explain why the M-16 can kill a Pz IVH at point blank. It is somewhat a substitue between accumulative armor damage and simple yes/no penetration, if it is indeed based on weight of fire. But the value of resistence does not seem near high enough.
- Jig
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Pongo:
Yes they did lubricate the 20mm ammo belts in USN aircraft, however this solution did work (1 jam every 2,000 or 2,500 rounds).
As far as your Mustang/20mm question -- AH isn't reality. The fact that 6x.50 M2 is inferior to 4x20mm HS in AH doesn't mean that this was also the case in the real world. The biggest difference IMO between damage in AH and the real world was that a lot of single round critical hits would cripple aircraft (via fire, ammunition or oxygen bottle explosions, control hits, etc. etc...) in the real world and many of these effects are absent in AH. Obviously the higher volume of fire from 6x.50s is a bigger advantage in the real world than it is in AH. The most obvious example of this IMO is when the target is an unarmored A6M. Any single hit from an incendiary or explosive .50 or 20mm round should have a good chance of torching the A6M. The superiority in volume of fire should make 6x.50 a better weapon set against unarmored A6Ms. In fact (and ignoring ballistic considerations) this same issue should make 8x.30cal firing AP/I a better weapon choice against A6Ms than either 6x.50s or 4x20s. In AH this is simply not the case. I expect that as the damage and weapons modeling undergo improvement that this will change.
In the current version the difference between 6x.50 cal and 4x20mm is not nearly as pronounced as it was in prior versions. For the F4U in particular the AH tradeoff is between .50s with 30 seconds worth of ammo and 20mms with 21.5 seconds worth of ammo. I have no trouble whatsoever killing with the .50s so for me the increased hitting power of the 20mms is worth far less than it was in prior versions. In AH the tradeoff is somewhat ambiguous for me (I still favor the 20mm setup but not greatly). If the game modeled every single component that was susceptible to .50cal fire, then I might very well strongly favor the .50.
I'll throw another little piece of anecdotal evidence your way. Part of the reason for the USN's increased interest in 20mm guns at the end of the war was Kamikaze's. If .50 damage tended to set an enemy plane on fire but 20mm damage tended to blow off wings, it might matter little to you which guns you had unless.... some of your targets were Kamikazes and it was important not only to destroy the aircraft but to destroy it in such a fashion that it couldn't maintain controlled flight for another 30 seconds and crash into a friendly ship.
Hooligan
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There are many features of a realistic flight sim that are hurdles for a new player, why shouldn't gun jams be one of them. If it is something the pilots of WWII had to deal with then I would like to see it modeled.
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Quite shocking to see how people would react to some of mere "suggestions", it seems. Somehow this little suggestion I made has been caught between things beyond my knowledge(or power I guess) - like the ongoing battle between "pro-amerikaners" and "anti-amerikaners".
As I stated before, the information I got was from a historian, and his credibility to my judgement seemed acceptable enough. Sort of makes me wonder - the levels of hostility from those "elites" who can quote some astounding things against a "dweeb" like me.
Dunno, I myself never claimed which thing/gun was better. The debate was long hot before I ever started this post. I inquired about it, got an answer and made a (naive perhaps?) suggestion which might present some negotiable solution between these "warring" factions. Why, it even smells like some of you people are suggesting that we all have to have near-encyclopedic knowledge about aircraft from A to Z to make one, single, small, short sentenced, damn suggestion. If one "hears a story" and "says something about it" without "he himself having encyclopedic knowledge" one does get branded the bad bad mark, no? (Well, for one thing, I never knew that the ' " ' quotation mark was supposed to be used for quoting 'books' exclusively. Have they changed something about grammar thingies? Well if one might ask a clarification on this matter, I inquired it via little something called 'e-mail' and he answered it on a public messageboard we use. I read that, didn't I?)
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Well, anyway, it seems the two "factions" are each asking for data and facts. They both show the facts and both claim each other's facts aren't acceptable. Real-life pilot's stories are just stories and can't be trusted. Fine, then who do we trust? I myself often thought the statistics on "paper" never were truthful to the real life, too. Why bother even asking each other for "facts" when you guys aren't gonna listen to each other anyway?
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What I still wanna know(and what you guys still haven't answered, not even giving it a bit of consideration since you guys are so busy warring each other about who's the more "Brains" about aircraft knowledge) is..
would putting in some gun jams or lowering the gun accuracy of notorious planes just a little teensey bit affect the game play so much that you guys who love the chog wanna give the whole thing up and shout "you anti-American conspirators!" ?
wouldn't modeling gun jams increase the tension and stimulation of gameplay to tolerable limits(if putting it in only "book-claimed" chog 20mms or Hispanos seems too unfair, how about putting it generally?)?
..
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Thks for the heads up Kweassa. Seems like anything anyone can possibly post over here goes over C-Hogs and Hispanos. And I am guilty as hell of doing that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
What about a poll with regards to Gun Jams?
Personally, I am all for it. But Gun Jam repairable at rearm/refuel pads.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Sorry Kweassa I don't buy it.
You walk in here in your first three posts and open up with a flamethrower, and then wonder why you get singed? And then you use the "poor little new guy versus the big bad elitist know it all" routine.
Whats your handle in the arena? I checked Kweassa, but it doesn't have any record of a score.
The entire way you have represented yourself in this thread, screams to me that "Kweassa" is most likely a alias for someone else, who has had a hand in this continuing running battle over half-truths and out right lies on this subject.
Who is this historian you keep quoting? Please share your source with us.
The reason I ask is that thru my years as a aviation enthusiast, I have met a few true experts in this field and participated in discussions with them directly in person or thru mediums such as this BBS. Usually they are quite frank and open about who they are, and what their qualifications are.
You say you never claimed that your initial statement supported either side, but thats patently false. Especially when someone considers the fact that you made a statement, which you represented as a "quote" from an expert, but it turns out it was neither (at least that you've proven yet) which "proved" one sides point. But then you retract your point by saying it was from someone else, and you can't be blamed for not having "encyclopedic knowledge" of the subject.
Sorry, but I can't feel sorry for a person that walks up to a campfire and dumps a can of gasoline on it, and then wonders why they got burned.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Geez RAM, how many more fake identities are you going to create so that you can agree with yourself on the BBS?
Hooligan
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Kweassa, what is your online handle?
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I'd pay Verm to give me lessons on how he does, what he does, so well.
-Westy
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I definatly aggree that the 50 and the cannons are alot more level in AH now. And that the flavour of the damage they inflict is much more like would be expected. I often make the mistake of thinking of our original Hispano version when I look for info about it. But of course it has been tweeked alot and made much more reasonable in its effectiveness....
But thats not as interesting to talk about..
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Modeling gun jams and other "random failures" is a solution in desperate search of a problem.
Mav
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hmmmm.....seems like a "game vs. sim" argument really
- guns jammed in reality - due to design or because of overuse and g-loading -
- if it happened in reality, and AH is a simulation of reality, then it should be there whether it is fun that it happens or not -
- if AH is a 'game' then it isnt necessary...in fact it is a liability if it just frustrates players -
most people see it as a gray area between the 2 extremes, most people want a 'realistic game' in other words: real fm's loadouts and specifications but the option to try fun combinations of engagements- after all p51's didnt go up against f4us in reality either
- but if you want ultimate realism you can't just model what you like - a complete model of reality would be sometimes boring, frustrating and/or unfair
- i personally would like to see it modeled because i like realism, but AH is a community of hundreds! i think htc could pull it off pretty well but i imagine it would just give whiners something new to whine about when they get shot down - so if it doesnt get modeled i wont go stomp (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'm not specifically against gun jams, I'm really ambivalent on the subject. I couldn't care either way.
What I can't stand is the crap like "Hispano's jammed all the time and the MG151 was the most realiable gun every built."
BullPuckey!
All guns jammed, period. Its just a matter of how often, and finding the information that give the data you need to model such a thing.
"Give me the facts Sir, and only the Facts"
--Dragnet
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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So Kwassa. You are lieing. Quite pathetic.
Quite desperate.
Hint. If you want to pass something of as historical, maybe make it less then the perfect quote.
The cronology is quite interesting.
First post
"Maybe realistic gun-jam options might help
all this discontent over F4U-1C. From what
I read, it says here:
" During the war the
"
Then by RAM
"I find funny that after many people here have asked for this quote, begged for this quote, refused to admit things until they saw a quote like this, laughed saying that they would only believe the unreliability of the hispano when they saw some quote like this...
I find funny, I say, that after 4 hours of this quote in the forum there is almost no answer from the Hardcore Pro-Hispano AH lobby. Except Ripsnort, of course
can you imagine opening pandora's box on reliability?
"
I guess you have your response RAM. What kind of support for change in AH is a big fat fabricated lie. That you apperently support whole heartedly.
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Mebbe this argument errr discussion sorry, can be carried into an Eleet arena some day. Where yas can all argue all ya want. Some of the above feature requests will hurt membership, therefore.. not gonna happen when its a one arena sim.
Nuff said
AKskurj