Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hening on September 21, 2004, 12:57:43 PM
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"Rhubarb"
The skies of Western Europe witnessed some of the most intense and skilled dogfighting of the war. Rhubarbs were run by The RAF in order to keep the Luftwaffe busy. The price The RAF paid was a heavy one, poking and prodding the Luftwaffe Aces in order to relieve political pressure of their Soviet Allies.
The British Spitfire Model IX and German Focke Wulf 190 Model D, two of the choicest fighters engage over France at 10pm EST on 22, Sept. Do you have what it takes? Really??
Walk-Ons are always cherished.
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Just curious, but shouldn't the matchup be more along the lines of the Spit V and the FW-190 A5 series? Bostons could be added as well.
Charon
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Based on the rhubarbs run as operations prior to the Normandy Invasion, this is an accurate representation. Possibly if the missions were earlier in the war, earlier models would be used. The Boston would not be seen on fighter search and destroy missions, unless somone in design was substituting it for a P39 :lol (joking)
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Yeah, I was thinking more of a Circus.
Charon
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Originally posted by Hening
Based on the rhubarbs run as operations prior to the Normandy Invasion, this is an accurate representation. Possibly if the missions were earlier in the war, earlier models would be used. The Boston would not be seen on fighter search and destroy missions, unless somone in design was substituting it for a P39 :lol (joking)
That's complete BS. The Fw190D-9 wasn't even in service yet and you're claiming it is accurate to put it against a slow 1942 Spitfire F.Mk IX.
What a freaking farce.
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Spit IX vs 190D9? Interesting matchup since the D9 didn't show until the Fall of 44 and the IX we have is the 42 version.
Spit XIV vs D9 over Holland and Germany in the Fall/Winter of 44/45 would make sense.
Spit IX vs 190A8 pre-D-Day or the Spit V/IX vs the 190A5, 109G 1942-43 style
Dan/Slack
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The FW 190D appeared in late 1943. Since all models of the 190D are not available in the sim, it was my choice to use the version available.
OK, we have one person feeling that the SpitIX was a later model and another feeling it was an earlier model for this design. Doesn't that average it out?
My suggestions:
A) Calm down for heavens sake. Save that angst for something really important.
B) Show up and fly and then comment on the design. It's more productive for future designs.
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Originally posted by Hening
The FW 190D appeared in late 1943. Since all models of the 190D are not available in the sim, it was my choice to use the version available.
OK, we have one person feeling that the SpitIX was a later model and another feeling it was an earlier model for this design. Doesn't that average it out?
My suggestions:
A) Calm down for heavens sake. Save that angst for something really important.
B) Show up and fly and then comment on the design. It's more productive for future designs.
So far as I know the Fw190D series did not enter service until fall, 1944. Certainly none that did 378mph at sea level.
The Spitfire Mk IX in AH is powered by a Merlin 61. About 300 of these were built, all in 1942. No it doesn't even it out. Also, both Guppy and myself said the same thing regarding the setup.
Run this if you want, but you may as well declare the Luftwaffe the winner right now. I see no point in participating in something that is as lopsided as this. Speed in AH2 is far, far more important than it was in AH1. The Spitfire Mk IX is a shadow of it's former self due to the change in gunnery which mostly eliminated long range shooting. It can no longer break trun away, roll back in line and shoot the retreating fast aircraft.
BTW, nothing to calm down as I'm not upset. I just think it laughable that somebody put the term "realistic" on this setup. Thus I called it a farce.
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Originally posted by Hening
The FW 190D appeared in late 1943. Since all models of the 190D are not available in the sim, it was my choice to use the version available.
OK, we have one person feeling that the SpitIX was a later model and another feeling it was an earlier model for this design. Doesn't that average it out?
My suggestions:
A) Calm down for heavens sake. Save that angst for something really important.
B) Show up and fly and then comment on the design. It's more productive for future designs.
LOL definately calm. Just pointing out that that the D model 190 did not enter combat until the Fall of 44. It didn't fight until then. The Luftwaffe experts are the ones who pointed it out to me during some discussions on reports by Allied pilots of D9's prior to this time. They simply weren't there in combat.
Figured setting the record straight was the way to go since it isn't accurate to say the D was flying in action before D-Day cause it wasn't.
Why not use the Spit XIV then since it WAS flying combat before D-Day?
Frankly, since Rhubarbs were low level ops, I'd rather have the current AH2 Spit V then the FIX to fly it since the Spit V performs better down low :)
Dan/Slack
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OK now that everyone is calm.....
The FW190D was first reported in combat against US Bombers in late 1943. It had been delivered in 1943 late Spring, early Summer to a few units for testing The liquid cooled engine design was in response to high altitude bombers. Possibly the first hurdle in this discussion is to agree when the 190-D actually entered service. The 190 D0 and D-1 are not available in the mix so the D-9, which was in production about the same time as The Normandy Invasion being all that is selectable, is what's available.
In order to put together an event, a short length event at that, and put two aircraft against each other I felt these two AH models (repeat...AH models) were a good match for skilled pilots. The facts written up when The RAF captured a 190A and compared it to a 1942 Spit IX had the Spit outperforming the 190A in some areas that the 190D would have challenged.
Having flown both AH models it seems like a fair fight to me. The true test is when people fly this event and then I will be very interested to hear the critiques, especially from Spit pilots.
On a persoanl note, the "realistic" note was in regards to the two aircraft being present at the time the event takes place. Due to some restrictions, the element of "what if" always plays a part in any of the snap-shots I've designed. It simply has to, or in my opinion they would not be "playable". Refering to that as a farce is a bit over the top.
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Guppy,
You seemed calm. I read both posts at the same time and the first was a bit more "spicey", and I responded to both.
As far as low altitude missions, I gave up on that several designs ago in terms of dictating altitude. One side was always protesting an aircraft beyond it's limits and attempting to limit "how high" never worked out well.
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The Luftwaffe experts have pointed to III./JG54 receiving 18 new D-9s in Sept 44 as the introduction of the 190D into active service.
It's come up in a number of different discussions over time and this is the consistant date repeated each time.
Some of JG26 converted to the D9 sometime after this. JG26 was in 190As and 109s prior to this. And they were the main opposition to the Rhubarbs.
In the original discussions I had quoted a book that stated 190D9s were first operational in the winter of 43-44 and I was quickly shown that it was not accurate.
The funny part is I had seen the Allied pilot reports of "long noses" in early 44 so I was ready to buy it. But I was quickly corrected by the Luftwaffe guys.
Dan/Slack
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Well, do what you like.
The fact is that you are running an fantasy setup. E.g., what if the Germans had Fw190D-9s in the summer of 1942 instead of fall, 1944.
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I am not aware of any Fw190Ds that were used as service aircraft prior to the Fw190D-9. The Fw190Ds prior to that were really development aircraft, IIRC. I'm at work, my books are at home (except one Mossie book).
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Karnak,
If you look at many of the ideas that are instituted into events, there is a bit of poetic license to make the events more interesting or playable. There's no joy in an accurate mission where outnumbered LW pilots get creamed prior to Normandy. Possibly arm chair pilots will take delight in the accuracy, but the folks that actually fly these events will feel like they wasted their time.
I thought about using the 190A but decided on the 190D since it's a better fit for the type of event and the AH Spit IX can fly circles around the AH 190A.
Never would I argue with the LW experts, but there is resourced evidence that the 190D was being flown as the 0 and 1 series with the next series after the 1 being the 9 (numbers 2 through 8 were skipped) that was in the sky during the Summer of 1944, which is the time of this event. I believe JG3 "Udet" Geschwader received the aircraft around the time you mentioned, but it would not be "fantasy" to imagine that other units would have had the aircraft and just not as celebrated.
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I wouldn't play this as setup now, for the reasons posted above. Ludicrous matchup.
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Dang, Engine we're gonna miss ya. I've not seen you in a Snapshot, but hate to think flying a Spit IX against a 190D is so ludicrous that it would keep you away.
Is it the fact that it's a disputed aircraft for the month of that year, or that it's not a "fair" fight?
I thought you lads were bomber jockeys? Should be used to 190D's?? ;)
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Well, I think you're still heavily buying into the Spitfire MA hype and AH1 reputation. The Fw190D-9 should absolutely dominate the matchup you have suggested. You've taken examples of the Mk IX and Fw190D from the opposite ends of their development paths and are throwing them at each other.
If I were to fly this I sure as heck wouldn't be in a Spitfire.
It isn't "disputed" anywhere except in you mind. This matchup would never have happened.
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Originally posted by Hening
Never would I argue with the LW experts, but there is resourced evidence that the 190D was being flown as the 0 and 1 series with the next series after the 1 being the 9 (numbers 2 through 8 were skipped) that was in the sky during the Summer of 1944, which is the time of this event. I believe JG3 "Udet" Geschwader received the aircraft around the time you mentioned, but it would not be "fantasy" to imagine that other units would have had the aircraft and just not as celebrated.
The info I saw initially pointed to JG3 getting the aircraft so possibly we saw the same thing.
That was shot down quickly however. You know those Luftwaffe guys :)
Dan/Slack
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its a shame i was realy looking to a Snapshot since iv been kind of tired of the MA of late
but this match up i can find in the MA all day
plz ether give the RAF a Spit14 or take the D9 out and put in ether a A8 or A5
otherwise il just fly a Spit9 in the MA with all the 190D-9s there and il get my fix of
fantasy
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Well then....
Now that I have your opinions, your suggestion will be accepted and the FW190A5 is the LW aircraft that will go into the write-up. See you all there Simshell, Guppy, Karnak, Engine et al.
Thanks for the feedback and now that being there is tied into the FW190A, we should have some splendid numbers.
As a CM for AH, it's my job to give you all what you want and I'm sure the numbers will back up your opinions tomorrow night. See you all at 10ET at the SEA and thanks again.
Cheers.....
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Guppy35,
Thanks for all the feedback. Very nice chatting with you. Being an RAF type, I know those pesky LW types too well :)
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Originally posted by Hening
Guppy35,
Thanks for all the feedback. Very nice chatting with you. Being an RAF type, I know those pesky LW types too well :)
LOL, it's kinda dangerous to even whisper "Spitfire" without starting a controversy.
It does appear that the work schedule will let me fly this thing tomorrow nite. I haven't flown one before, but that 43-44 timeframe is the one I'm the most interested in as that's when the XII flew so I'll be there for a Spit :)
Dan/Slack
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il try to get to the snapshot:)
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I'll try to make it as well, but I'll fly an Fw190.
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Originally posted by Hening
Dang, Engine we're gonna miss ya. I've not seen you in a Snapshot, but hate to think flying a Spit IX against a 190D is so ludicrous that it would keep you away.
I'm so good you don't even know I'm there.
Will try to make it tonight.
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Really enjoyed the Snapshot tonight Hening. Managed to get Airbumba on my first run and then glided back safely into a vehicle base on the coast of England, out of fuel.
Second run we were way the heck up there at 35K and of course the fight dropped to the deck. Got caught in a bunch of 190s, turning like mad. Got one of the 68 guys before 68Falcon blew my wing off and into the Channel I went.
Great fun all around :)
Thanks for setting it up
Dan/Slack
(Rust in AH2)
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Dang it. I thought it was at 9:00PM PST.
I showed up at 8:55PM PST only to find out it had happened at 7:00PM PST.
I'm really sorry about my screwup.
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Turned out to be a very nice Snapshot. Thanks for coming Guppy.
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RCAF 140
LW 130
There was some very good flying on both sides. Controlled engagements and not just a major furball. The RCAF had to focus on fuel management and time engaged target along with the FW190s.
Thanks to all for coming out for this one
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I had a blast! Thanks Hening ,
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.....except for that Guppy guy.....;) .