Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: AKFokerFoder+ on September 22, 2004, 11:47:21 AM
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With the new eny system limiting the planes we can fly, I have been looking into the 190A8. Awesome guns package. I have noticed that a lot of people seem to like the A5.
Questions:
What is the pro con from the A8 A5? That is why would you want to choose one over the other. Keep in mind that I do not attack vehicles or ground targets (other than field ack), I strictly dogfight.
Will either model outturn (or at least turn with) a LA7 or Pony D?
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None of them can really turn with La7, but they will turn with any P51 (flaps up) at speeds above 250 mph and below 500 mph. 190A8 is a bit faster on the deck while having lower substained climb rate, 190A8 has also better endurance. Take into consideration that 190s are not turners, you should use the vertical as long as you can or afford not more than 1 180 degree turn if you are slower than 300 mph. If you plan to get into a turn fight, be sure to have room (alt) to recover 300 mph or more, because in these cases you'll probably end recurring to violent scissors and you dont want to start them low and slow.
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I don't plan on turn fighting per se. It is just that if you can drag a P51 or a LA7 away from the fight, it is nice to be close to par with plane performance when you turn back to take them out.
A lot of bunny pilots fly the LA7/P51 (note that does not mean all pilots who fly these planes are bunny pilots). If you can drag them away from the flight you can kill them fairly easily.
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190A5 and A8 are excelent rides against bunny pilots, as any other plane, with the probable exception of C47.
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how come the A8 is faster?
same engine as the A5 but much heavier
or maybe im messing things up here?
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A5 is my fav 190 for furballs best turner of the 190s. Leave off the extra set of guns the extra wieght makes a real diff. I also burn off 1/3 of the bb's to lighten the nose.
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None of the 190s have a chance in hell against an La-7 if the La-7 pilot is around 1/4 to 1/3rd as good as the 190 pilot.
Against the P-51, all the 190s can win if they get the P-51 slow (i.e to 150 mph or less), then take the fight vertical. A good way to do this is to get into an oblique sort of looping fight.. the P-51 will drop flaps to help him around in the loops, this will have the side effect of slowing him down. Once he is slow enough, you don't loop on your last "loop".. you go up and rope him. Scissoring will work to, but it is slightly more dicey as you have to dodge at least one shot before you can go vertical (typically).
The 190a8 is much nicer than in was in AH1, it feels almost like the Ah1 190a5 in a fight. I personally take the 2 x 20mm, 2 x 30mm because I'm usually dead or all the enemies are by the time the 30mm runs out.
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Originally posted by Flyboy
how come the A8 is faster?
same engine as the A5 but much heavier
or maybe im messing things up here?
Yes it's the same engine, but it was continuously improved so it could take more boost, just like the Merlins and the DBs.
And no, the A8 is not much heavier than the A5 with approx. the same armament and fuel load.
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Originally posted by Flyboy
how come the A8 is faster?
same engine as the A5 but much heavier
or maybe im messing things up here?
A8 heavier, same engine, true, but A8 engine was rated for higher pressures. A5 was allowed for these power settings well after its introduction. BTW, AH 190A5 top speed in military is also slower than 190A8 in military setting, while both share the very same military power setting :(
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I don't think so GODO. IIRC the A5 runs at 1.32ata on MIL and 1.42ata on WEP. The A8 runs on 1.42ata on MIL and 1.58ata or 1.62ata on WEP.
Pyro has said he's going to redo the entire 190 series FM. I look forward to seeing what he changes.
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In reality the FW-190A8 should be the best performing FW-190A IMO.
1. It did gain weight but it gained a lot more horsepower. The FW-190A5 wing loading for a jadg-einsatz with full wing armament is 46lbs/sq. ft.
The FW-190A8 with a full wing armament is 48lbs/sq ft and it gained 200hp.
Look at the Spitfire Mk IX (35lbs sqft) vs. the Spitfire MkXIV (40lbs sqft). The Spitfire Mk XIV turns the same radius as the Mk IX according to the tactical trials and it gained lots more wing loading with a very little increase in Hp. Both the Merlin 66 (+25) and the Griffen 65 are 2050hp engines. The Spitfire Mk XIV had a better prop and when the Griffen was approved for (+25), which I think was post war or very late war, it had a better thrust to weight.
2. The FW-190A8 had improved ailerons, elevator (they got rid of the crappy looping elevator design used in the previous models), and better props over the FW-190A5. The ailerons and elevator had different designed hinges and spacers. The FW-190A8 had three props a pilot could choose from.
A standard metal bladed prop, a wider chord wooden prop, and the really wide chord prop used on the Dora (late war).
The FW-190A5 could only use 1.42ata @ 2700U/min for 3 minutes and it still retained advantages over it's contemporary allied fighters.
The FW-190A8 Jagd-einsatz's should out zoom, out dive, roll as well or better, outturn, accelerate as well or better and generally be more nimble in the air than the FW-190A5. All with much better armament.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by GScholz
The A8 runs on 1.42ata on MIL and 1.58ata or 1.62ata on WEP.
AH 190A5 uses 2400 rpm and 39.5" for military, 190A8 and 190F8 too. If you did mean real 190A8, then agree.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
The FW-190A5 could only use 1.42ata @ 2700U/min for 3 minutes
Crumpp, as far as I know that limitation was only present for the last 190A3s, it was not even present for 190A4s.
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Crumpp, as far as I know that limitation was only present for the last 190A3s, it was not even present for 190A4s.
I am checking into this but the ratings for the Luftwaffe documentation I have now say:
FW-190A3 thru FW-190A5 Emergency Power = 1.42ata @ 2700U/min for 3 minutes.
Based on several flight test's of the FW-190A5 I believe a supplemental chapter to the Flugzeug-Handbuch or a technical bulletin was issued moving 1.42ata @ 2700U/min to the 30 minute climb and combat rating. However everything I have in writing says differently so far.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Based on several flight test's of the FW-190A5 I believe a supplemental chapter to the Flugzeug-Handbuch or a technical bulletin was issued moving 1.42ata @ 2700U/min to the 30 minute climb and combat rating.
Probably much later, when they all were cleared for 1.58ata/1.65ata. But A4 was already able to run 1.42 for 10 mins, in fact 10-15 mins, surely it depends on the speed.
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Probably much later, when they all were cleared for 1.58ata/1.65ata. But A4 was already able to run 1.42 for 10 mins, in fact 10-15 mins, surely it depends on the speed.
I would be very interested in seeing this. The Flugzeug-Handbuch says 1.42ata @ 2700U/min is "Take off and Emergency" Power and is authorized for 3 minutes. I will send you a copy of the page.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by GScholz
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Pyro has said he's going to redo the entire 190 series FM. I look forward to seeing what he changes.
Same here.
Currently the A5 is a very nice, nimble fighter. It's a little down on speed but can dive out of trouble nicely, climbs better than people expect, and overall feels very responsive at most speeds.
The A8 feels a lot like the F-8 to me ... heavy, unhappy when pushed close to the edge. You can't point it for snap-shots with quite the same gusto you can the A-5. At least that's my experience.
When the ENY limiter kicks in I'm usually in the 190A-5 or La-5 and have found that they can hang with the big boys pretty well.
I'd love to see the A8 get re-tuned to be along the lines Crumpp descrcibed.
-DoK
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When the ENY limiter kicks in I'm usually in the 190A-5 or La-5 and have found that they can hang with the big boys pretty well.
I find the LA5 quite competitive, and I am flying it a lot as it does seem to outturn anything it can't outrun. But I do like the fuel and guns package on the A8 much better. (BTW, if the Pony B had 6 guns I wouldn't fly anything else.)
As I try to enter a fight with superior energy, and a planned egress route, the turning capabilities are not too important. I am strictly Bore n Zoom.
When the eny value keeps me out of the superior rides, you have to pick something else. I believe that I would be better in the long run of knowing the envelope of these higher eny rides than flying the uber rides most of the time. It is after all, the pilot not the plane in a lot of cases. I took the A8 up last night just for grins and bagged 4, until I had to ditch, (a ho hit my oil), took it up again and bagged another 4. In the A8, you have lots of fuel to position yourself for the attack, and lots of hard hitting ammo. I think I was using the 20mm/30mm package, it rips planes to shreds.
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The A8 2x20/2x30 combo does kick veritable arse, so to speak.
However, consider that the 30mm still has a crappy trajectory, and only 30 rounds per gun. Chances are the 20mm and 13mm are doing most of the damage. Unless a wing falls off with one ping (which always amuses me to no end). Go for CLOSE. CLOSER. CLOSEST range (100-200) to get definite 30mm hits.
2 Side notes:
1) Try the 4x20mm. You get more rounds and still kicks mucho hind-quarters.
2) I've heard people say they fire off half their MG ammo. They say it lightens the load. DON'T. I have flown lots of US planes. 50cal is NOT to be scoffed at! And I think the German 13mm is even stronger (barely). Those 13mm have gotten me kills. At close range I fire all guns. At long range I ping targets to make them break, then nail them with all guns when they do.
Try it once in a while with 2x20mm and no outboards (or am I thinking of the A5??) and it's still a fearsome plane, because they fire THROUGH the prop, and are not so spread out (as opposed to wing-mounted guns).
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Under MA conditions, all the Fw190s are indeed better suited for killing and fighting than the Bf109s.
Straight-forward and simple tactics, excellent firepower, and easy handling at highspeeds. The lack of all these stuff make flying the Bf109 really difficult, while flying any 190 very enjoyable.
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Both the A-5 and A-8 can dogfight upto a limited extent if you have some margin of alt to gain speed quickly when needed, and dive to safety in the worst.
It could stand a good chance against a P-47 or a P-51 in a close-range fight if there is some alt. The excellent responsiveness at all axises at medium speeds and upper, can be utilized in such fights, since a close range fight at altitude isn't so slow as fighting at deck.
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However, like Urchin's bitter remark, against a Yak-9U or a La-7 it's basically totally beat. The only real chance against one in a 190, is either run away at first sight when disadvantaged, or hope you can get the shot in first. In close quarters maneuvering, the only hope is to manage a HO situation during scissors - and this is not easy.
Even when such HO opportunity rises, the 190 may lose - the Las have all cannons at the center line.
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Looking for HOs in 190s, is actually very valid tactic. Not many people realize this, but the effectiveness of HOs according to armament varies greatly in AH2.
Basically, all the planes with armament in the wings, are disadvantaged against planes with centerline armament. This tendency wasn't so clear in AH1, but it is very clear in AH2. It is not uncommon for a Bf109 with one cannon, to win a HO against a P-51 or even a P-47.
The 190s have the cannons at the wings, but among the wing-armed planes it is the best platform by far, considering the sheer power of the four cannons, and two of those are at the wingroots.
Going HO against a centerline cannoned plane(particularly La-7 with 3x20mm) is always a bad idea. An La-7 can knock a 190 down far before its own cannons start to hit, and a P-38 or a 109G with 30mms, will in many cases knock you down as you knock him down.
However, against planes with machine guns mounted at the wings, the 190 has a very high chance of winning the HO. It has good chance of winning against planes with armament like the Spitifres too.
It's a good calculated risk.
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Also, another of its distinct features is the roll. In AH2, a lot of planes have been burdened heavily by high speeds. For instance, the A6M Zero takes more than 4~5 seconds to roll 180 degrees at merely 300mph IAS. The Spitfire and the N1K2, also lost a lot of its maneuverability at high speeds. As long as you have some margin of alt, shaking off a N1K or a Spitfire isn't too hard.
You can also do the controlled stall - snap rolls. Continuous succession of snap rolling can be very difficult for the attacker to aim. I've seen people who do this - it's different from "stick stirring". Tthere's a logical pattern to each of the "snaps", and yet the speed the plane rolls, is too difficult to adapt to in many cases. A person who looks for precision shots, are practically gonna be baffled.
There are lots more tricks for the 190s, but this is about as much as I know. I know I'm barely average in it, so I fly it very timidly and modestly. And the funny thing is, this gives me more kills than flying aggressively in the 109.
It may feel a bit dull for someone who wants a lot of action, but performance wise, it is certainly a very good plane for multiple engagements environment.
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The 190 series is very nice in that you have a plane for just about any situation.
190A5 - Take the 2 cannon option. If you want four cannons you're better off with an A8. I take this plane out for spins into furballs about halfway between my base and the enemy's. If the furball's near the deck, grab about 5k (live dangerous) and make some slashing attacks and maybe even get in the middle of it (just don't get slow, and don't turn for long). Can't say you'll live through it, will say you'll have more fun then a strict, boring, BnZ.
190A8 - Man the firepower options on this... Phew! Either way you go, you're going to shred stuff to pieces. The 30's make things go *boom!* and the 4x20mm's really seem to get a lot of lead out there quickly. The single best anti-bomber plane IMHO. There are also a few fellows who can pull some amazing tricks out of this plane... When you run into Lazerus you'll know what I mean.
190D9 - The more surviveable 190, simply because you can run away screaming for help. Great fun with a wingman.
Other people can give you more experienced details, but these are the basics, at least as far as I've seen.
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Both the A-5 and A-8 can dogfight upto a limited extent if you have some margin of alt to gain speed quickly when needed, and dive to safety in the worst.
I am interviewing several surviving FW-190A8 pilots for my book.
They have quite a few victories against La's, Yaks, Mustangs, and Spitfires.
The FW-190A8 was not fought by HO'ing or making a clumsy pass then extending out of visual range.
These pilots got in and close. They got into DOGFIGHTS and not to a LIMITED extent. They fought for their lives, most of the time while heavily outnumbered in the air. Late in the war, they had to dogfight through the escort screen in order to intercept the bombers. Then they had to dogfight the allied fighters on their six just to get home.
The science and the history back that up.
As one of them says "In my FW, I feared no fighter I could see."
Crumpp
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Awesome. Would love to hear how they flew, Crumpp.
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is there an option for 2xMG151 on the A8?
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Originally posted by Urchin
Against the P-51, all the 190s can win if they get the P-51 slow (i.e to 150 mph or less), then take the fight vertical. A good way to do this is to get into an oblique sort of looping fight.. the P-51 will drop flaps to help him around in the loops, this will have the side effect of slowing him down. Once he is slow enough, you don't loop on your last "loop".. you go up and rope him. Scissoring will work to, but it is slightly more dicey as you have to dodge at least one shot before you can go vertical (typically).
have to disagree, took the pony for a spin last night, (50% +DTs)
when fuel went to around 30-40% i was able to loop it with a p38, after about 5 loops he started gaining on me, i went nose low, gained some speed, made him overshoot, nailed him.
had some good fights against agflit and his 190, had no problem following him in manuver he did allthou i think he was in a f8
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I really appreciate all the information posted here, I am grateful for everyone who has contributed so far. :)
I think I will try the 4 20mm package for a bit.
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Lets hope the Fw redux is coincident with the release of the Ki-84. Otherwise I expect the 190 to be relegated to 3rd-line usage,
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Lets hope the Fw redux is coincident with the release of the Ki-84. Otherwise I expect the 190 to be relegated to 3rd-line usage,
I would not expect that. I'd expect the Fw190 FM redo to come at the same time as the Fw190 3D model redo. Say, 2.02 or 2.03.
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Originally posted by Flyboy
is there an option for 2xMG151 on the A8?
Yes.
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4 eyes, 4 20mm cannons,coincidence?... I don't think so! :lol
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Just got a bunch of documents from the USAF Historical Archives.
These figures are for USAAF Day fighters ONLY. They do not include the RAF, RCAF, or any other allied air force. They only include the USAAF fighters engaged in western Europe.
Some telling statistics for 1944:
USAAF Day fighter Losses - 4,897 planes lost in combat
Pilots Lost in combat - 2,801
Aircraft of all types claimed destroyed in Air to Air Combat - 5608
Sorties Flown - 365,284
Escort Sorties - 207,532
Above sortie figures does NOT include 30,706 non-effective sorties that turned back due to weather, technical problems, or other reasons.
Average Number of USAAF fighters vs. Luftwaffe fighters in engagements - 8.6: 1
Total number of sorties flown by the Luftwaffe in all fronts during 1944 - 66,300
Roughly 75 percent of the Luftwaffe day fighters on the Western Front in 1944 were FW-190A's. For the majority of time in 1944, the predominate FW-190 was the FW-190A8.
Crumpp