Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on September 22, 2004, 06:47:48 PM
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SUPERLFY!!! all known plan view drawings of the liberator nose
and canopy frame are inaccurate!!! ive exhaustively research
correct proportions of this because its bothered me since every
plastic model b24 is wrong andwarbirds 3d model was wrong.
its been driving me up the wall for years hehe.
if you have 3dsmax i can send you my files on what i came up
with in a generally correct look for the canopy but even mine isnt
spot on. its unfinished because i returned the 3dsmax6 so i could
buy multigen but decided not to buy multigen hehe.
aside from the nose the wings and engine cowlings look
excellent. but the outboard engines the top cowlings should be
level with the highest chord area of the wing. (inboards should
be too)
plans of the tail fins may be inaccurate! they might not angle
back that much.
i have 1/12 scale plans from palmer plans I can send you at no
charge just because I want to see this plane done right.
http://www.mag-web.com/rc-modeler/palmer/product.html
I also have many large scale plan view files!!! much variety very
large tiff files. the origional factory drawings of the b24
remarkably are not around anymore and artists interpretations
are all that remains (and all artists thus far have been incorrect)
this is the only aircraft i will ever bug you about being perfect
because ive been wanting to see an accurate b24 for so many
years I started building one myself haha!!!
let me know if you will allow my assistance on the dimensions of
this aircraft because i have been looking at it for so long i know
about every detail of it and though its hard to get the
dimensions accurate.. TRUST ME IVE TRIED I KNOW!! I can tell you
100% when it looks right.
I will never nitpick another airplane again I swear just promise
me this one.. the pilots canopy and nose and the look of it (tail
angle and stuff) will be on the money :)
this is the plane that if you can capture the look of (its hard as
hell to do) its gonna be skinned and screenshotted to death
because there are a lot of people that are in love with this plane!
but i think by your post you said its a taste of what it will look like
and damn its gonna be great when its done :)
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/cos_b-24j-2.jpg)
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/b24j_copy.jpg)
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/b24-3_copy.jpg)
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Your thread subject is inaccurate too, Cit. :D
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I was waiting for this post. I even knew the subject matter would focus on the cockpit and nose.:D
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hahaha b34 oops typo.
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How can we trust this candidate when he cant even get the name of the airplane right? How can we trust a man who renounced the symbols of his bomber? How can we trust Citabria's plan to fix the B24 quagmire? How
We cant!
:)
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Heck, just send him the files. :D
Then he'll have something to see what you're talking about.:aok
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heres pics of it let me know if you need the files for reference or
anything. or let me know what you need to get the dimensions
right. pictures? I have lots of those too! :) and just to make sure
you know you are seriously kickass modeller and its the poor
reference plans available not any lack of modelling ability.. which
you have in abundance!
medium poly model around 2000 triangle count (unfinished) if i
remember right
this is a pb4y so engine cowlings and tail different but the pilots
canopy is the same and nose is except for the portion forward of
the navigator dome because of the erco ball turret. some early
b24d pics too before i converted it to a pb4y (b24j is readily
convertable to a pb4y btw (but please make sure b24 canopy
and nose and tail angle and engine cowling location correct first
hehe) I also have good pb4y plans
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/b24d9e.jpg)
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/PB4Yu.jpg)
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/PB4Ys.jpg)
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/PB4Yo.jpg)
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here is some info on the tail angle and some other info hehe.
Extraction from USAAF documentation on the B-24D-CO ( same as b24J except nose and tail turret)
Stablizer:
a) Span (C.L. fin to C.L. fin) 26'0"
b) Maximum chord 7'-8-3/16"
c)Airfoil NACA 0015
d) Incidence 2 degrees
Fin:
airfoil NACA 0007
wing:
a) Airfoil
1. Root C.V.A.C. 22%
2. Tip C.V.A.C. 9.3%
b) root chord @C/L fuselage 14'0"
c) incidence 3 degrees
d) dihedral (on upper chord line) 3 degrees 26 min.
e) sweepback-leading edge 3 degrees 30 minutes
Areas:
Wings (including aileron & extended flaps) 1192.0 sq ft.
Ailerons at hinge (total aft hinge) 64.3 sq. ft.
Flaps (total) 144.0 sq. ft.
Stabilizers (to elevator hinge) 125.0 sq ft.
elevators (including trim tab) 67.05 sq. ft.
fin 139.0 sq. ft.
Rudder, both (including trim tabs) 48.8 sq ft.
setting and ranges of movement of control surfaces:
1. Ailerons
a) Up (from neutral) 20 degrees)
b)Down (from neutral) 20 degrees
2 Flaps (total) 40 degrees
3. Elevators
(a) Up (from streamline with stab) 30 degrees
(b) Down (from streamline with stab) 20 degrees
4. Rudder
Right and left from streamline with fin 20 degrees
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basically dont go by the plans for the final shape of the nose and pilots canopy frame you need to go by lots of photo references and eyeball it.
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I think this thread may be a good reason HTC shouldn't stay so quiet for so long about what planes they are doing. The B-24 may be too far along now to justify going back and fixing what Citabria has found through his research. By keeping plane development such a secret, you run the risk of losing the ability to take advantage of valuable input from the community.
Anticipation beats suspense.
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if multigen is as good as 3dsmax6 everything is adjustable
and since its onlyexternal model so far it should be within adjustable levels of detail.
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I think Cit, like towd, is fantical, paranoid and mentally unstable. The kind of person that would gun down an office building simply because someone at the office wouldn't agree with his singular POV.
BTW...thanks Furious.
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no just b24 is favorite plane and its never been done right.
its time to get it right.
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Fester if it's your favorite plane maybe you could answer this question for me... Polk City, Florida, has an air museum... I went there oh maby eight years ago but I could *swear* that they had a B-24 parked outside on display... The bomber on the inside was just part of a B17 you could climb in and "man the guns" but man I could swear there was a B24 sitting outside with the velvet ropes and whatnot around it!
Are you saying that not a single one still exists, period?
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There was a B24 here in WA State just a few months back. They flew it in from Seattle. Then it was on it's way back somewhere in CA.
Got some pic's if ya want I can post.
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yes i have been to fantasy of flight and years ago there was a b-24 sitting outside. i think they flew it out eventually or maybe disasembled it and took it away to be restored?
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also please make the luuminosity or whatever setting it is i cant remember that controls the reflectivity of the polys to be dull enough to work with olive drab camoflage.
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There is a B24 at Duxford :-
http://aam.iwm.org.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.1126
believed to have been the last B24 in service with the USAF. It's now on display inside the American Air Museum at Duxford
Regards
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The B-24 at Polk City (Fantasy of Flight) is the last flying B-24 in the world, and is now painted as "Dragon and his Tail".
Nice Privateer there Citabria !
PS: Cit, if you want to do 3D modeling and don't want to spend a lot of money, try out AC3D (http://www.ac3d.org). Its like $50 once you register (30day free trial). Its pretty powerful, and will output to most of the common 3D format. No not multigen, but to be honest, I don't know of anything but multigen that writes to its format.
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Doesn't Maya have a personal edition for free? No exports or publishing tho.
Fester, Pyro mentionned the specularity variable here: http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130333
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The Collins Foundation flies their B-24 all over the country.
(I can't see anything wrong with Superfly's B-24)
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Look a little closer, you'll see.
Only detail that I disagree on is the cockpit side windows' bottom ends: it looks like Superfly had to take a shortcut and make a single window piece (in black) with the rectangular bars added to it, not the windows shaped individualy.
The nacelles are the easiest to spot in comparison to the museum shot, the vert stabs look too angled compared to the flying shot.
The top spine of the AH model does look slant, but I think that's the game 3D perspective.
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The nacelles are the easiest to spot in comparison to the museum shot, the vert stabs look too angled compared to the flying shot.
The nacelles look flush with the top of the wing to me. The vert stabs thing looks like an optical illusion caused by the slanted stripe, plust the curvature of the top leading edge. As far as windows, there were probably many different configurations.
One screen shot isn't enough to analyze the model.
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Just one screenshot, yes.
I thought the vstab stripe was perpendicular to the leading edge.
The nacelles are definitely not flush, find one of the spines between the orange bend at the leading edge, and the wing's leading edge line, you'll see the nacelle cylinder's top spines are below the latter.
Look at one exterior engine and then the other, it's visible.
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Feel free to send in any materials you have.
I took a look at things you pointed out on the model. There does appear to be a discrepency between the 3 views and a few photos that I looked at regarding the nacelle position. We'll look into that further.
The slope of the rear fuselage that you perceive is simply the angle of the screenshot and the angle of the plane in relation to the ground. It's pretty flat when you look at it sitting on the runway. The portion of the nose in front of the cockpit is flat. It's just rounded at the sides. As to window details, you will see variations there because there were variations depending on where and when a specific plane was built.
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Thanks for the bomber!
You know we want more. :lol
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Pyro...
The cockpit window doesnt look to be transparent but rather just grey... should it be like that or is it just not ready that part?
Tex
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The interior is unfinished.
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nm, I seem to have lost nearly half my pictures and only have about 4 of Dragon/Tail...
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nm the nm, I found a bunch of good shots interior and exterior of Dragon and his Tail.
Bomb bays with plates showing dif bomb loads and how to hang em, turrets, aft fus, mid fus, some cockpit and controls, the room behind cockpit and assorted exterior shots. I'll send em if ya want. It might take a while though as I'm still dial up... say the word.
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The B-24 at Polk City (Fantasy of Flight) is the last flying B-24 in the world, and is now painted as "Dragon and his Tail".
Vermillion or anyone interested.
Fantasy of Flight has the only fully restored B-24 flying. However, Commemorative Air Force has the oldest flying B-24. It was the 25th built.
"This aircraft, the 18th LB-30 of an order of 20 for Great Britain, was involved in an accident on its delivery flight to Canada in 1941. Consolidated rebuilt it to a transport configuration and it was used as a company aircraft throughout World War II.
It flew on a scheduled basis between San Diego, Fort Worth and New York. From its Consolidated serial #AM-927, the plane became known along this route as "Old 927."
It was a loud bummpy ride here in Jackson, Mississippi but great fun. It flies around with Fifi a b-29. Some of the fellas that fly in with it are vets and have great stories.
Take a look the schedule is on the site it may be coming to an airport near you.
www.cafb29b24.org (http://www.cafb29b24.org)
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Thanks for the B-24, I needed new targets for my A-8 :D
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argh no one believes me about the pilots canopy. the real ones don't loook like the model. I can deal with screwed up nacels the only part i want right is the pilots canopy and the nose visible from the cockpit in front of it. because thats what im gonna see when flying it and ive sat inside in the real ones every time dragosn tail came to my airport.
all b24 window shapes are the same only variation is where the break is for the glass that swings open on each front window and whether or not the sliding side windows have bubbles. the ones that look different had field applied armored glass.
besides that they are all identical and the cockpit canopy is where the trouble is largest with the model.
will send the 3dsmax files i have and as many photos as ya can deal with haha. and various 3view plans
what email should i send them to?
please redo the pilots canopy. the side windows should slant down and the front windows should look different. the angle of the nose from nose to tail should be level with the spine of the aircraft behind the navigation dome. its all right in the pictures. the 3 view drawings are always wrong. please trust me on this.
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/vm_snafuv1.jpg)
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/5-b24d.jpg)
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I can definately see what you are saying about the slant on the side windows. It isn't there in the screenshot like in the photo you just posted.
I spent some of my workday ;) googling for B-24J images, trying to find good cockpit shots. They are kinda rare.
What you are saying about the nose is less evident as it is hard to discern in the screenshot. In the photo it seems to slant down slightly, and then more sharply once it is forward of the navigation dome.
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look at the canopy shapes please. look at them vaery carefully. all b24s look like this. please believe me haha.
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/peaceprint.jpg)
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/jpg5.jpg)
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/Tuck_it_in.jpg)
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(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/b24d-fightingsam3.jpg)
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this is what it looks like
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/b24-02a.jpg)
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/b24-10a.jpg)
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/B24PIPa.jpg)
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Pyro can you guys also fix the Me109F windshield too. Right now its a strange combination of 109G windshield with the 109F external armor. The 109F should have the same canopy and windhield frames as the 109E4 model has now.
Thanks!
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go away hijacker this is a b24 only details thread :P
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PYRO or Superfly,
Judging from his exitement.
I think you better let Fester help before we have to repad his room again.
And unless you wanna cough up the bucks for a new straighjacket for him cause, we havent gotten his straightjacket back from being repaired from the last time.
And they tell us it wont be ready for another....
Two weeks :D
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I love this plane!!! and yes i will need a straight jacket if its modelled wrong haha.
would really like to see it brought up to the accuracy standards of the 109, p51d and ki84.
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shameless plug,
Pictures of B24 on my website, with pictures and videos of my B17G flight and other B17s
http://www.steveo.us
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Bah, Cit, theres a few B-24s around. A few years ago "All-American" came to an airport near here and offered flights.
For some reason the B-24 canopy is hard to model.
Here are a few canopy pics I got after a quick google search. I had a few authentic WWII photos of B-24Js, but somewhere over time they were destroyed. Sorry I dont have those, but I hope these help.
(http://www.steehouwer.com/midl/mid08.JPG)
(http://amesnews.arc.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/03images/bombers/images/hires-tif_b24-goldengate2.jpg)
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Strange, the Diamond Lil has a covered canopy and exhaust ports sticking out the top of the nacelles creating soot on the wings. Looks like another case of the superchargers being removed, that or a different model. Or maybe a plastic model.
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I think it should double as a goon.
http://steveo.us/b24-b29/B24-B29-40.jpg (http://steveo.us/b24-b29/B24-B29-40.jpg)
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Originally posted by Citabria
I also have many large scale plan view files!!! much variety very large tiff files. the origional factory drawings of the b24
remarkably are not around anymore and artists interpretations
are all that remains (and all artists thus far have been incorrect)
The San Diego Aerospace Mesuem shows a few original B-24 and tons of original PB4Y-1 blueprints and diagrams in its list of Rolled Drawings from 1939 - 1945.
They also have a very large group of documents called 'the Convair Collection' - (Consolidated 1923-1942; Consolidated Vultee (Convair) 1942-1956; General Dynamics (Convair Division) 1956-1996).
San Diego is very important in American aviation history.
http://www.aerospacemuseum.org/library/index.html
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My mistake ! Sorry :)
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I also have tons of pics of Dragon and it's Tail if they'd be of any help; but im sure others do as well
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yes all superchargers have been removed from all the flying ww2 bombers..just no t cost effective..and they dotn fly hi alt any more..
this last summer i flew on the B-24 Dragosn and its Tail..YEEEEMOFO HAH!!!!!!!!!!!!1...
summer before that flew on the B17 "909"..yehawwwwww
Fetser..way to go you nerd..nice to see soemone holding to such detail...