Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wraith on March 31, 2000, 07:36:00 PM
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Everyone complains about head ons, and every time that happens, someone points out that in real life a head-on was avoided because it was too dangerous (hey, a 20mm cannon shell in my chest don't look good!).
The reasons why HO is done here is simple:
1)Its easy to get a kill with, the plane with bigger guns/ROF/Aim wins. HO a B-26 in a HogC? NO PROBLEM! Bring it on!
2)You're behind a screen, not a cockpit. I bet if you were in a cockpit you sure as hell wouldn't get on a collision course with another plane, closure rate of 800 MPH AND whizzing bullets to throw in the kettle. I DIED! Weee! Lets try it again! (I bet WW2 pilots wouldve LOVED to be able to do this!).
Its easy and there is no "real danger" to the player (yeah, make em lose a .exe file at random on their system every time they die... that would kick in their self-preservation instincts *wicked grin*), thus there is no motivation to NOT die (some players dont care if they kamikaze against an ack, or run out of gas over enemy territory, etc..they happily respawn).
How to give a player a motivation to not "die"??
I repost an idea from a previous thread in which my humble pocket got whacked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif):
Make RANKS for players. If I am able to win RANK by getting kills and NOT dying, then I would not only get a nice rank insignia (and perhaps some rank priviledges..like painting your plane or something!), but I also get a REASON to stay alive. If I get killed...well, there goes the rank and I start again as a miserable latrine aviator (personifying the "replacement pilot" that took the place of the glorious dead Captain that got shot down over F12).
I previously suggested that certain planes be open to certain ranks..some people did not like the idea *shrug*.. I think its cool and somewhat logical.. the Luftwaffles wouldn't give an ME-262 to any green pilot, nor would the Brits give the Gloster Meteor to a yank with 12 hours flight time logged.
The point here is to GIVE the player a REASON to stay alive. Got any other suggestions on how to do this? Post em here!
And before someone says "Then low ranks will always HO" I say: If they HO, they never get rank or good stuff.. and it takes 2 to HO. If the Colonel HO's, then he's a stupid Colonel and deserves a humiliating death. Low on E, can't avoid a HO Mr Colonel? Gee, too bad, that's your fault, the plane didn't "decide" to lose the E on its own.. besides, you CAN live if you bail out, no need to stay with the sinking ship eh?
Chute shooters? Aaaww... too bad, it happened in RL too, dont open chute till the last moment then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
'nuff rambling.. NEXT!
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It's really a matter of trying to balance out not wanting to die vs flying recklessly. If you really penalize dying heavily, nobody wants to engage unless they have a big advantage and that's not very fun in the main arena. While a lot of old timers forget it, the main arena is the place to cut your teeth on ACM vs real humans and to have fun.
We do have a system worked out that will affect how people are rewarded for their flying, but that's at least 2 versions away. More details will come when we start to work on it.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
Perfect plans, aren't.
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I like it.. like it a lot. The days of non-persistent multiplayer gaming is in the past.
Sure recording ones score and seeing it go up as time goes by is fun. However, the real fun is "achieving" something. As per an article I read a while back the two key goals of any good multiplayer game is:
glory and shame
Glory when you reach that next level/rank and can buy that new sword/tank. Shame when you die and lose that level/rank and your brand new sword/tank. It's what makes games exciting and thrilling... the reward of success makes it all the more worthwhile.
Why do you think muds were so successful ? There were no graphics all it was, was chat and text battles. The "addiction" part was the fact you really felt you achieved something when your character gained experience.
UO, EQ, AC and all the other RPGs have definitely proved this.. it's now time for the SIMs/RTSs (*cough* I'm developing a simple RTS on this concept (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) follow suit.
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I'd like a show of hands...
How many have killed Mitsu? (1...2..3..)
Ok, how many wasted Fishu? (1...2...)
1999? (...1...)
This is under circumstances where we all fly the same planes. You want to put these guys above nearly untouchable to godhood?
Give Hristo that 262 and see if you ever, EVER touch him. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Point being, you would guarantee the game would be totally ruled by a few elite pilots, with little opportunity for advancement for new pilots. Rank is one thing; limiting aircraft is utterly unworkable to me.
I wouldn't mind seeing rank, though it is highly unlikely I would ever see advancement... too willing to die to save a bud or a base. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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here's an idea
give a free month to the pilot who lands the most kills in a TOD (since a TOD is a month). Kills gotten on sorties where the pilot bailed, ditched, or died dinnae count for the total. A pilot can only win it once every 3 months.
another comment from the peanut gallery (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Now there you go Cave! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I've been shot down by Mitsu, does that count? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (I think I did shoot him down once back in beta. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) I honestly don't think I ever engaged Fishu. Fishu, are you still playing?
Personally HO's don't bother me too much. I generally try pretty hard to avoid them. In some cases I like it when the other guy goes for a HO. Sometimes I make it look like I'm going to HO, and when the other guy pulls up to accept the HO, I zoom up and wait for him to stall. (It's fun to do this in the 109, that thing can hang on it's prop forever. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
I'm curious to hear about what HTC has developed.
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Originally posted by Wraith:
Everyone complains about head ons, and every time that happens, someone points out that in real life a head-on was avoided because it was too dangerous (hey, a 20mm cannon shell in my chest don't look good!).
...NEXT!
Okay. Here's the scoop on HO's. WW2 in the CBI (China-Burma-India) theater. Claire Chenault advocated HO's with the P-40's agains the Zero's in the opening days of the war. (Siddown in back! This is documented fact!) Chenault new that four .50's would cream a Zero whch at that time only carried 7.5mm mg's!
(GASPS! SCREAMS of HEREASY!)
Yeah, in the early days of the US' involvement in the war, our Airmen in the CBI were trained to do three things:
1) CLIMB! CLIMB! CLIMB!
2) DIVE!
3) Head on Attack for the sure kill!
Yeah, when the cannons came in, the P-40 was outgunned, but not before the Japanese suffered horrible losses against no more than 18 OPERATIONAL P-40's at ANY GIVEN TIME in the CBI. This let us get our war machine up and running and cost the Japanese 663 planes to, (I believe but may be wrong) 58 P-40 losses in aerial combat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That said. How do you avoid the HO when it is forced on you?
Hopefully you have some vertical closure. If so go inverted and angle OFF the HO until range gets to D1. Rudder roll/barrel roll out of there or into his nose and blast as you pass. You should be able to judge where his nose is pointing and keep it away from your plane.
In a coalt HO, close to D1.5 or D1 and either snap roll out of his guns, or skid away with rudder and LIGHT stick movements. Soon as you see him shoot, open separation with more stick and rudder. (I do this in a dive if coalt and roll with rudders to spoil his shot.)
Both methods work for me 90% of the time. Other times I accept the HO and skid INTO it at the last second to get the shot. Yeah I die, but he's beat up too so...) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Shaw's will tell you all kinds of things on avoiding HO's. Read it and then modify what you read to suit your tastes.
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Tern
"Live to Fly! Fly to Fight! Fight to Live!"
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"HO" = 'Horrible Opportunity'
It's like "Military Intelligence". Mutually exclusive concepts... and often utterly necessary together to survive in a combat enviornment.
Hang
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Originally posted by Wraith:
Everyone complains about head ons
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) Stop right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "EVERYONE" does not complain about "head ons". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) Most pilots who are worth their salt don't even notice them because they don't engage in them unless they have a good reason.
If you don't want to deal with Head on attacks, don't fly a sime that has every plane controlled by a real human, go play EAW (it seems to suit you better)
Coyote(the pilot who has never been FORCED into a head on merge)
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I was generalizing, dont take it personally (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
the pilot who has never been FORCED into a head on merge
Heehee.. stop flying the F4C or N1k .. or tell me when you fly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (kidding, dont blow over this hehe)
Pyro: Good point. Fun Vs Realism...the old problem (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm not talking about penalizing dying. Reward NOT dying, think of it that way *grin*
If I stay alive I get to paint my plane so my enemies tremble in fear...I get rank that will allow me to brag on my team...and who knows, I may even get me a joyride in the Me-163 Komet! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Its good to know that this problem is being considered in 2 versions. Go HT! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Wraith (edited 04-01-2000).]
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Originally posted by bloom25:
I honestly don't think I ever engaged Fishu. Fishu, are you still playing?
Once you have ate my lead (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And no, im not playing, been playing soldier on the ground, in Rogue Spear...
I Got bored to fly on routine basis and guess I am bit low on cash too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(got ADSL etc....)
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Actually, he advocated that agains the Claude. The Zero had 20mm cannon from the get go. The IJN provided a very specific list of requirements, range, speed (over 300 knots) and armament (2 20mm cannon and 2 7.5mm machineguns). Only Mitsubishi rose to the challenge to design and produce an aircraft that met all of those requirements.
Sisu
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Into the main discussion...
Only thing that bothers me with head-ons, is that, it happens too often, gets boring after while...
Not to talk about they are easy kills because they do head-on and not some neat maneuver to get on your six.. or then they will just run.
It's funny that they explain that with their lack of skills, but meanwhile they don't even think about getting more skilled.
You know, you don't get skills as a gods gift all the sudden!
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I disagree fishu:
I decline many many HO attempts but I don't prefer a nifty six manuever either. Just about the only HO I will accept is one in the vertical if I am going down and him up.
I honestly haven't given a bad one away on a merge for over a week now. And that was a cannon hog that picked a front quarter shot.
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.02
I persnally don't like a "ranking" system. FA has had it forever and once everyone beomces a "General", then what? Also people start making blanket statements about how the lower ranks do this and that. Possibly part of the problem is that the rank is displayed as part of the icon. Part of the reason I like AH is because there are no "ranks". If it were to be installed a few versions away, I hope it would not be avalaible as an icon. Let them look up my score to see my rank.
As far as HO's, I have often wondered about the people who complain about them. Last time I checked, to have an HO, you need two planes. If you don't like HO's, dont get yourelf into that position in the first place. Sure you will always have the other guy who is trying to HO you, but that would not happen so often if you did not decide to HO him also.
I am still learning good SA and flying. If I get myself into a position where someone is on one of my front quarters coming at me, I will generally turn into him because I figure if I turn away I will end up with someone on my six. I don't turn into him to intentinally HO, I do it to force closure sooner and then force him to turn to get on my six. It does not work real good, I usually get pinged on the pass because I do too much of an HO and not enough off-center HO. I rarely if ever shoot back when I turn into someone.
People have already talked about play vs. the realism of HOs so I will not bother with that part.
The word "you" was used in this posst in a general term and not at anyone in particular.
Fury
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As far as HO's, I have often wondered about the people who complain about them. Last time I checked, to have an HO, you need two planes. If you don't like HO's, dont get yourelf into that position in the first place.
Oh,yes, of course...when I see a con coming for me at 12 o clock I will turn around and present my 6!!! lol.
I wont say anymore about HO cuz I'd explode in flames.
But there is something I think will improve this game a lot. As there are so many people playing for the score, they usually fly the "kamikaze" way (I.E. going down into a cloud of cons, killing 4 or 5 and then getting shot down). Also this idea will make HO attacks much less wanted...
What if the score is divided by 5 if you dont land your sortie?...lets reward the landings, the RTB!!! So, if you are fighting a furball against ,say,5 lower cons with your friends with you (typical pre-vulch situation) and your fuel is getting low you WONT stay there to kill 3 or 4 more cons, but you turn home to land your sortie!!!
Is that possible? is a good idea? i think it is but what do you think about it?
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RAM I like the idea of not getting full credit for a sortie if you do not land it. Of course that means my score would go way down, but I think something like that makes staying alive a little more important.
Maybe scale it; discos don't count, landings count full, ditches/bails less than full, deaths not much at all.
Fury
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The score catagory is already adjusted based on how you end the mission. Ditches 75% bails 50% death 25%. Or very close to those numbers.
But your post about changeing the scoring system to change the HO attack made me wonder. How many of the top 10 people in the ranks use HO's as there normal mode of attack. My guess would be none.
HiTech
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If you are any where near corner speed, avoiding a HO is not difficult.
You can deny the other guy the shot. That's it; that's all. Believe it.
If you are not confident in your ability to do that, you probably end up going for guns yourself, thinking you're going to get hammered anyway.
This is why so many people say "it takes two to HO"; there's a mutual lack of confidence in the ability to avoid a HO.
If the HO bothers you, renounce it yourself first. Work on learning the moves to evade it. You'll probably get nailed a few times; that's how you learn what to do...by doing what you shouldn't do a few times.
Once you teach yourself, you'll never even really think about HO's any more. They just aren't a good attack option for either guy.
The last time I got nailed in a HO, it was all _my_ fault. I was vultching <in a D hog, mind you> and _I_ misjudged a Spit V's ability to get the nose around after T/O. I was below corner and couldn't get that hog to move at all. The Spit did the right thing; it was his best and only hope of surviving in a vultch situation. BTW, I never tripped the trigger...was trying to evade as soon as I realized his nose was really moving!
All that being said, if you catch me significantly below corner speed with no way to get to it....I'm gonna try to shoot ya in the face too! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Go into the TA work with a new player who has just started. All they can do, and just barely, is point the nose at the NME and shoot.
Sheesh....
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Great discussion above!
I have to admit I get a small chuckle whenever I read posts where people are complaining about head-ons - usually from the newer players.
Thinking aloud:
In virtually all forms of fighting and combat with firearms, it is bad form and often considered downright cowardly to shoot someone in the back. For most combatants, military or not, a face to face confrontation is the accepted norm. All except fighter combat! (both real and simulated) Not only is it acceptable to be shot in the "back," people prefer it! Many get downright hostile when they have to face an opponent on even terms and die in the attempt. I daresay many of these people are less upset if they are shot from behind with zero possibility of shooting back (in the case of a fighter). How ironic! What makes us fighter pilots so darned special that we think we can just ignore centuries of fair play and good battle field etiquette! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
MiG
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Originally posted by Fury:
.02
I persnally don't like a "ranking" system. FA has had it forever and once everyone beomces a "General", then what? Also people start making blanket statements about how the lower ranks do this and that. Possibly part of the problem is that the rank is displayed as part of the icon.
Yes, but in FA rank is determined by your kill/death ratio and some other obscure factors. What I say is that if you die, YOU DIE. You lose ALL rank and start from scratch again.
Rank would signify that the pilot flies smart and has skill (or plain dumb luck).
I don't say the rank has to be displayed on the icon... gods no! If that happened there'd be a stampede when the high rankers are spotted. Show the rank when the victory message is displayed (aka Victory 1 by Colonel Fishu of =squadron name=).
Toad: Always shoot from the back, its the safest place to do so (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) . And you're right, avoiding HO is not difficult. Split-S or steep dive almost always does the trick (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
HT: "Ditches 75% bails 50% death 25%"
I agree with ditches and bails.. but deaths? Nah! Give 0%, they DIED. Gone! Poof! No points for the dead.
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I once blew up close enough to Mitsu to almost hurt him once. Does that count?
-Westy
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I for one don't think that any kind of ranking system based on whether you die or not is good
All it rewards are people who take off and climb to 30k, attack only when they have a vast advantage, and run when they dont
very few engagements will happen in this scenario, which is not the point of the MA like hitech said.
I think the best way to simulate "scared for your life" is scenarios. You get one plane in a scenario, if you loose it, youre out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Plus, in a scenario, forces start out supposedly even. If you get gangbanged in a scenario, its because either you let yourself get seperated or you let your teammates die (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thats kinda why I don't like MA, there are very few "fair engagements", I always have the advantage (which I don't necessarily like since i have fun when i win a difficult fight, not a easy sure thing) or get raped (which i dont like because, well, I'm getting raped (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
Seriously, what fun is it engaging someone 3 on 1? I do it, and I still go for the kill, but I'd rather have a "fair" fight. It seems to me a ranking system would give everyone runstang fever and there would be more running than killing.
So basically, I would like to see a "scenario" arena much like there is now, except with a scenario scheduled to start mabye every hour? or 2 hours? I dunno, it would depend on how big the scenario was. Entry to the arena would be locked at a set time, then the scenario would occur with even teams ectera, the sceraio would have a briefing which everyone would have to read before they entered. You would have a mission, and 1 life. If you died, or RTBd, or whatever, then youre out of the game and you can go back to MA to practice till the next scenario began (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
We could have stats on scenario kills, which would reflect the kind of stuff you are talking about. But the desire to run from a fight would be much less, because you have a mission to complete! If you runstang in your mustanfg those 190s are gonna chew up your buffs, ectera. I think this is the best solution.
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ZIGRAT! YOU THE MAN! *APPLAUSE*
That is an AWESOME idea! MA to hone the ACM skills, the Scenarios every 2 hours to SHOW the skill! YES YES! *joygasm* (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
This is GREAT! Finally the BUFF pilots get their wish of good guns, escorts, formation flying and a mission, the fighter pilots get the chance to fly as escorts, foward sweeps, diversions, ground attack, etc.
I haven't seen the new map, but this would be something REALLY good and quite easy to implement (at least I think.. it would be making another Special Events Arena..but one that puts up missions every 2 hours. HT could appoint a player or a group of players as the "creators" of the missions so there are new scenarios every 2 or 3 days.).
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Gee, I guess nobody likes me because I often resort to jousting. I love HO's and I win them at about the same rate as I win traditional ACM. When my opponent has a higher energy state than I, I will sometimes instigate a HO, to put us on an equal playing field. Sometimes when I bounce a guy from up high, he will go vertical into a HO.
(LOL, my wife just read this and she thinks that I am talking about prostitutes, tell her I really don't love HO's! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
When he has enough kinetic energy to do this, all I can think is: "Good move dude, I thought I had you, now you get to shoot back too!"
Anyway, this is just a game and most people don't care about scores and ranks, etc. Of the 16 or so members of my squad, only about 4 of us ever look at scores. The last time I checked, I was ranked 14 overall, yet I consider myself average among my squad. Rankings will only effect a few, I believe.
By the way, Mitsu killed me once; spit(him) vs. N1K(me).
I killed him once; C-47(me) vs. N1K(him. LOL
eskimo
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I usually try to avoid any kind of HO, but sometimes I get on them because I cant determine the course of the other plane until too late to avoid (even using Zoom). This is specially frequent at low level fights, where the aircraft camouflage is more effective. The closure rate doesn't help me a lot, several times we have the same course with my plane much faster than the enemy and I get its 6 o'clock, other times the other is slow and me too and we have opposite courses, the closure rate is the same that in first case, but the final result is HO. I'm running at 1024 16bpp 17" monitor, and IMO the plane shapes (messed up with very pixelated textures), most of the times, appears to be poorly defined. In fact, I'm absolutelly unable to aim without zoom and it seems I need a 120" monitor to see any plane clearly.
As a side note, this is the main problem I see with this awesome sim, the graphic definition. Too many poligons, but poor object appearances until too close. As an example of very very good object definition at any distance, take a look at EAW. The shape of any plane is perfectly clear even when its size is 0.5 cm on the screen running at 1024. And I'm sure any plane in EAW has half number of poligons than the equivalent in AH.
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I think we need to define "Head On" a little better. To me a HO is a frontal attack on a co-alt merge. Those are really pretty easy to avoid. The Better pilots all work variation's of horizontal & vertical seperation to both gain angles and avoid a true head to head meeting. Ideally the goal is to produce an advantage at the merge that translates into a kill later...that being said front aspect shots are NOT HO's. Often times only one player has a firing solution, thtas not a HO it's a front quarter shot.
Most of the "HO's" I suffer are front aspect shots from B&Z cannon runs in the middle of a furball
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hello all:
i got tierd of reading all the replys here so if this has been said already, sorry.
regarding HO's and WWII real pilots. everybody stats that the real pilots avoided the Ho's because of the danger, well one thing i have not read about is the fact that in WWII, the pilots did not have a clip board with a map pointing out where ebnemy planes where, there for, they could not head straight at them but would have to look for them. yas there was radar on the ground or spotters on the ground to say what area enemy planes where in. but the pilots still had to look for the enemy planes, and this meant they could get the advantage of alt if they found the enemy and did not get spotted them selfs. but with out knowing whee your enemy was, you had to look and hope you spotted him before he spotted you, in this game fust head for the dot on the map, and then you will have the HO's happening. at the same time, we all know or have a good idea where cons will be heading and can just climb for alt and wait. no matter how you look at it, the HO's will never stop, and yes it takes two plane's to have a HO, if one deverts from the HO, then you have no HO do you. so go HO, or devert from it, best luck to you and have some fun.
as for those with the top score's, it seems that those would be the vulchers you do see any where else, some names i see only vulching but dissappear from defending or the dog fights, i will not mention name's as this alone will start a fight of words already, those that only seem to show up at vulch time will be sure to say it is not so. so lets hear from those that vulch only please. i wont say any more on it at this time.
blue skies all
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Punted for Santa's reading pleasure... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Head ons are historically accurate, especially in the pacific with f4 wildcats's, p40's and p39's vs. zero's. Chennault told his pilots to head on if given the opportunity.
The lufwaffe was instructed to head on the buffs. And it certainly was not uncommon for two eto fiters to head on.....stupid, but they did it. Remember, these things were being flown by kids....21,22,23 years old. Kids think they're immortal and have a propensity to make some pretty good errors in judgement.
I dont like head ons and will avoid them on the first pass, but if in a close turn fight I will start firing head on if I have to.
I'm not crazy about 'em, but they are historically accurate.
CRASH
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All this talk about tactics is pure tripe. No one cares about that, that is complaining.
Most of the complaints are that the other guy died too but only 1 kill was awarded, or that the effects of net lag so greatly effect the result of an HO (which can also cause an HO UNINTENDED by one of the parties)
HiTech knows fullwell the problems of HO's and on-line flying and he knows why it was turned off in AW and then back on CK, WB's, and now AH. It is here it has problems and it will not go away, it is a choice made by the producer of the game to have or not have HO situations in on-line flying this choice having been made MOVE ON.
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In this arena, AH, the one who avoids a “suicidal” HO and is able to get a kill is truly the more skillful pilot. I can tell when I have a HO situation on may hands and try to use that to my advantage. If he is going to try an HO me that means I can “steer” him.
On that note I would be the first to HO if the fight, especially in a furball situation, degenerates to the deck with multiple bogies in the area. I will charge like a bull in hope to be first and get out alive.
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jehu
[This message has been edited by jehu (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Originally posted by Westy:
I once blew up close enough to Mitsu to almost hurt him once. Does that count?
-Westy
Hehehe I enaged Mitsu in a B-17 once with a P-38 (bad idea) and we mutally shot each other up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
He kept flying, and I got both radiators shot out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Managed to make to the runway tho.
Hmmm I have been guilty of frowning upon front aspect shots...it's stupidity on my part because I normally don't take front quarter shots period. It's just kind of frustrating after doding an intial, pure HO pass (easy to dodge with a roll and all) engage them and turn N burn down to the deck, to where I normally blow it where the guy gets close enough for a front aspect shot. (Normally with me in a P-51 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif) ) to where I pull straight up and start rolling wildly. Sometimes it works, most of the time I take a few hits. Other's it's the 4 cannon slam of death. But I never get the ol' HO accusation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Only time I did recently was an engagement with 2 F4U-1C's...killed one, took a burst from the other and lost a gun, managed to get a good HO burst with no damage to the 1C, took 3 more long bursts of .50 to put it down. P-51's are fun down low (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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HOing is an art!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
and a crapshoot with warps and lag etc..
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Lol Avoiding the HO without sacrificing position is an art form without doubt.
Learn it or lose is what it comes down to, basically if your concentrating on taking a HO shot your not thinking about starting your next move and if thats so, then your the best part of already lost.
Hmm Mitsu where have i heard that name before ?
Ah yes i hear Monica clipped his wings a time or 2 both using an A6M in a straight on fight (free player).
Judging from the comments above on his ability it must have been luck i guess.