Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BigBen on October 14, 2000, 04:09:00 PM
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After once again succumbing to ostys all afternoon, I'd like to register my frustration with the recent proliferation of these vehicles & make some suggestions for better balancing the osty's role in AH.
I won't use the "u" word to describe the Osty, but I would suggest the following to somewhat limit the Ostwind's capabilities AND give a person a reasonable chance of killing it without being blown apart.
Suggestions:
1) Limit the field of fire. It's an air defense vehicle, so set a minimum elevation level on the gun. Maybe a maximum as well. Anyone have historical data on the Osty's field of fire?
2) Weaken the armor of the turret, so the gun is easier to put out of action. The CHOG shouldn't be the only plane capable of killing it!!
3) increase the RECOIL effect of cannon firing so that aim drifts when firing.
4) Reduce the ammo load or weaken the effect. Once on or near the field, the Osty can trash it.. all by itself. Unfortunately most Osty drivers prefer to just hit the VH, and then flak-vulch the planes trying to launch to destroy it. Maybe that's fun for the Osty driver, but it sucks for the people trying to defend their field. A panzer can only kill 2 or 3 hangars at best and has very weak AA capability.
The "new" beta map encourages even greater use of these vehicles due to the proximity of the spawn points to the A-fields. Therefore, I believe this is an extremely important issue.
You are all free to disagree, and I am sure that many of you will, but in all honesty I think the Osty is a better ground-to-ground weapon than the Panzer in addition to being very difficult to kill from the air. I have killed plenty, but only when they weren't simultaneously firing at me. If the see you... and you are attacking.. you die. And if you do succeed in killing it, it simply respawns immediately in range of the field. Not good for gameplay, IMHO.
If you don't like my comments, feel free to shoot me down either here or in the MA. If you do agree, please say so... if this thread grows large maybe HTC will take note and put the Osty in its proper place!
Salute!
BigBen
[This message has been edited by BigBen (edited 10-14-2000).]
[This message has been edited by BigBen (edited 10-14-2000).]
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If an osty gets to a field, takes down the vehicle hangar then procedes to vulch aircraft.. the problem isn't that the osty is uber.. its that the defenders weren't paying attention.
I've had sorties in an osty where I've taken down an entire field and then had a squadie capture it with an m3. I've had other sorties were I'd aproach the base 4 or 5 times and promptly be killed. The presence of aircraf was never the deciding factor of my survival.
I think some strategy needs to be adjusted in regards to the osty. It is too good at taking down bases. If it wasn't really used as such.. it shouldn't really be able to be used that way in the game.
Its lethality against aircraft, however, is about what I'd expect. I don't see any need to change that aspect of it.
AKDejaVu
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A picture of the real thing here:
(http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/8662/FLAK-O2.jpg)
In my opinion, the turret looks EXTREMELY vulnerable, even to MG fire.
re: armor, good info here: http://www.shadowsfolly.com/WWII/Germany/Flakpanzer.htm (http://www.shadowsfolly.com/WWII/Germany/Flakpanzer.htm)
Of note, hull armor front was on average 80MM, but turret armor was only 25 MM and sides were 30MM.
I will back off of my elevation suggestion, as the real thing had a range of -6 to +90 degrees.
I was interested to learn that only 43 Ostwinds were ever built! (see below)
More info:
3.7cm Flak auf Fahrgestell Panzer IV, Ostwind
In August 1944 Generaloberst Guderian ordered 100 Flakpanzern consisting of a PzKpfw IV chassis (mainly Ausf. J) with a 3.7cm Flak 43 gun. The FlakPanzer IV "Ostwind" (East Wind) was similar to the Wirbelwind, which it was intended to replace, but carried the more powerful 3.7cm AA gun in a different turret. Only 43 were constructed.
[This message has been edited by BigBen (edited 10-14-2000).]
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I got a sneaky feeling the traverse rate is screwy.
Also could 1000 rounds of ammo be stored in the turret?
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-14-2000).]
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Funked,
You are probably right. The gun had a hand traverse, so it would have taken MUCH longer to traverse the turret than it does in AH today. We're seen pictures of the elevation and azimuth wheels on artillery in the past, so it should be obvious how slow traverse would be. This might be the "balancing factor" that we need! HT, Pyro, please take note! =)
BB
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To recap a post I made to http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005884.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005884.html)
Originally posted by -lynx-:
Just think about the whole thing for a moment:
An enemy flakpanzer is sitting next to your airfield which is still fully operational (ie is capable of launching aircraft) and no-one from the ground troops has been despatched to get rid of it? <snip>
It is one thing when an airfield is being over-run by ground troops assault<snip>
I have to agree with this, an airfield should have a security force stationed on or nearby specifically<sp?> for dealing with enemy ground troops. That would be HISTORICALLY accurate.
How about this as a feature HTC could add:
Using the M-3 Troop Transport take off from the field find the Ostwind then highlight (*Note: use same highlight as "PAN" mode*) the target ya want the troops to attack, then deploy em to make thier way towards killin' that target. Instant Base Security Troops!
This could also be expanded to enable ya to also use the M-3 on enemy bases to attack any structure on that field as well.
I'm sure HTC could figure out how much damage a truck load of drunks to do, and how many it would take to destroy the various buildings.
Of course the whole time they are running to the target the M-3 hasta keep the building or vehicle highlighted so that the troops remain headed towards their assigned task.
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[This message has been edited by milnko (edited 10-14-2000).]
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Well, if the VH is gone, you have a problem. My only suggestion (aside from any historically accurate changes, such as open turret issues) would be to add a second or third VH to major fields. I mean, they already have 2 fighter hangers on the bigger ones. Either that or place Vehical more friendly V-Bases withen easy range of a friendly airfield.
For what it's worth, when I saw that a friendly field was under attack by Osts and others, I took out a PzIV and whacked around 4 Ostwinds plus change. Meanwhile I watched the very aircraft this thing was designed to shoot down die in flames trying to kill them. I don't remember reading much about WWII pilots making attacks on mobile flak with anything but extreme trepidation.
Thog
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90 degre dives, pullups at d1.40 works quite fine for killing them.
I've killed some in JU88 at 3k making quite slow passes at them, too.
What I'd like to see is the damage model revised - ONE turret hit with a 30mm should be enough to disable the gun. As it is now, they are virtually immune to any guns the Germans have, including the 30mm. I've killed an Ostwin once when strafing in the A8, but never more.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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That turret offers much more protection than b17 gunners had and look how hard they are to kill .
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Here's what I know about it. Turret armor consisted of 24.3mm boiler plates welded to form the turret itself. Hand-cranked turret drive allowed a max rotation nearly that of the PzIV, which used electric turret drive. Max ammo load is given as 416 rounds for the Flak 36 gun, and 240 rounds per minute as the rate of fire. I know we have a Flak 18, which could be the wrong gun. Handbook on German Military Forces, printed in 1945, states a Flak 36 was used.
Based on that, any aircraft would be able to easily knock out the gun crew. Dispersion would send rounds all over, and into, the turret. Figure a dispersion of 20 yards [60 feet] at 550 yards for four .50 calibers. Each .50 caliber puts out bewteen 550 and 800 rounds per minute. Take the average [675 rpm] and you get 45 rounds per second striking in a 20 yard area. Now fire a typical 4 second burst: that's 180 rounds, each a half-inch across and weighing nearly two ounces. The gun crew would be toast.
Use anything less and you'd see a gun crew lose limbs, anything more and you'd have to pick 'em up with a sponge. Throw cannons of any caliber into it and you've got nothing but red mist. I've fired on Ostwinds with just about everything; 7.92x57mm, .50 cals, 20mm cannons of all types, even 30mm Mk. 108 shells. Only the Almighty Hispano Mk. XXX Turbolaser killed it in a single pass. The .50 cals knocked out the turret on pass #2, while M.G. 151/20s did nothing until pass #2 also.
Before you jump, the dispersion of 20 yards is a guess nothing more. The rest of the info is real live fact gathered from several books or web sites.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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Model crew wounding/killing. I notice the driver gets wounded quite a bit and he is under armour. The gun crew was exposed from top attack and shrapnel in RL thats why the Kugelblitz and the Panther AAA units were developed at the end of war.
thanks GRUNHERZ
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 10-14-2000).]
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The Ostwind has a kill to death ratio of 2.7 to 1 against aircraft. (Tour 9, 10-15-00, early A.M.)
I think what frustrates some people about the ostwind is that anyone and everyone can do well in it. It's a pretty simple machine to opperate compared to a fighter.
I think that this is a good thing, however. It gives newbies something that they can shoot down planes with, and not have to invest months of learning to get good.
The good news is that the Panzer has a kill to death ratio over the Ostwind of 4.2 to 1!
So if you need to defend your base, grab a Panzer. If the VH is down, then you and your countrymen failed to protect your base adequitly.
The Ostwind can be killed with fighters.
In the Typhoon, I have 22 Ostwind kills at the expense of 12 deaths, and I'm sure that others are doing much better than I.
I do agree, however, that the Ostwind's gunners should be woundable and killable (as well as the Panzers top mg gunner). Perhaps as the gunner, we could have X lives (X being # of crew). If the gunner gets killed, you are put in the drivers seat, and must re-sellect the gun, untill everyone is dead.
eskimo
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Do you guys actually drive the Ostwind? My gunners get whacked all the time. Gun becomes inoperative - I assume that means the gunners are no longer drawing breath.
I'm not sure if it's .50 cal or 20mm doing this. I put about 50 x .50 cal into an Ostwind tonight and he kept on shooting. Maybe it's just a matter hitting the right area on the Ostwind.
Milenko said: ... an airfield should have a security force stationed on or nearby specifically<sp?> for dealing with enemy ground troops. That would be HISTORICALLY accurate.
All the fields I've been to have automatic guns which magically fire through the buildings and can take out my Ostwind quite easily. Also people will frequently spawn tanks and kick my ass. Sure sounds like an airfield security force to me...
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-15-2000).]
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Yes, after being killed 12 times in a row by Ostys, I heartily concur. They desperately need some kind of downgrading. Incereasing their vulnerability and decreasing their accuracy is in order, imho. The only way to have any hope of success seems to be to hit him when he is shooting at someone else. Even if you succesfully drop from a steep dive it is no consolation when you get nailed the next second. I develop a very hostile attitude whenever I see an Ostwind these days. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
Base security troops and some kind of fixed defensive positions (for example; a PANZERABWEHRKANONE with a POWERFUL telescopic sight) would be welcome. Extra VH's at large/medium fields are a good idea, too.
Phew, whine mode off for a while.
2Cool
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"It isn't allways bein' fast or even accurate that counts; it's bein' willing."
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Well there is one guy that does NOTHING but drive an Osty to a base, Takes out the VH as quietly as he can, Then just sits out of range of the ack and shoots any plane that comes up. He usually gets about 12-15 kills a sorty. I find this irritateing. He's a career Osty vulcher. He got me twice the other night. When you first come up on the runway your a sitting duck for about 10 seconds. More than enough time for an Osty to bracket and kill you. Could we start in the old revetmenst and have SOMETHING around us to keep us from dieing in the first few seconds? OR!!! Could we not let Osty's spawn like tanks and M3's. Make them for base defense only. If some guys wants to use them in the vulching manner make him drive an hour to a base. This crap might stop after a few long drives where he never makes it home and gets only a 15 kills in an hour vrs the 50-60 this guys gets in a few hours of playing.
LLB OUT!!!!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by llbm_MOL (edited 10-15-2000).]
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Originally posted by 2Cool:
decreasing their accuracy is in order
Please no. It is hard enough to shoot down aircraft as it is... Just make every bit of the Ostwind historical, and we should be fine.
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Rendar
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LLBM,
It's very easy to prevent this from happening.
Just watch the map, hop around from feild to feild and look for the osties before they get within range.
When you see one, get a panzer.
If you see a ostwind at a field, take off from the other end of the field from him. Don't use the runway, just swing a 180 and take off on the grass away from him.
I take off from osty-occupied fields all the time in this manner, and very rarely take hits on take off.
The Ostwind is not uber. It's just the C-hog of the ground. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
eskimo
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What Eskimo said. It's up to the players to make sure their base is clear of threats before going on the runways. It's not that hard to do. Grab a Panzer, put some AP in his brain, exit, grab your plane, and take off while he's driving back.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-15-2000).]
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All I can say is if you dummy up the ostwind then the N1K and 1c better be right behind it.
I am almost always in a ostwind now and I can tell you it's not hard to kill one.
I could tell you how some of the good osty killers do it but then that wouldn't be very smart would it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I am one of the guys that will sneak an ostwind into a base and kill the VH first then hit the other hangers. If you pop up while I'm killing the base then I will kill you. You can call it a vulch but I AM trying to close the base not run up my score.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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BTW,
Kills from any "bomber" (including ground vehicles) do nothing for your score other than keeping you alive so that you can finish your sortie. Destruction of ground targets is what give you bomber points.
So no one can run up thier score by getting lots of kills in an osty. Destroying even 1 ground target will give you a better score than a 25 kill ostwind sortie. People do it because it's fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
eskimo
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The ostwind is the only thing that can keep a chog from killing a vbase at will. Ive had good chog jabo sticks tell me that m16's, hispanos kill em before you get in range of thier guns, are a piece of cake but they hate the ostwind. tells me the ostwind is working (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) leave it alone!!
Shamus
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Ostys just demand better strategy from both the attacker and the deffender.
On the attacker side, now you have to kill VH first, that's all it takes to prevent them from deffending attacked fields.
On the deffending side, a) They are very easy to kill with panzers and b) It's quite easy to disable VH from V bases. That would solve the short distance travel from the respawn point.
I don't find Flak so difficult to evade, while they are quite tough to kill.
I wouldn't turn them down. Just make them historically accurate (or as close as possible).
Cheers,
Pepino
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From the photo above, it DOES seem that the Osty should be vulnerable to .50 cal from above, yet I have strafed the HECK outta them with a P-47 with no discenable effect.
Also, since the Panzer is the most effective anti-Osty weapon, I'd like to see a rangefinder implemented for the Panzer. I've read of one-shot kills by Panzers against tanks, so I imagine they had pretty accurate rangefinders.
popeye
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Based on reading this thread, here's my summary of what I think should be done:
SHORT TERM:
1) Make gunner position more susceptible to death/damage from near miss bombs and cannon/MG fire. The crew was sitting right there exposed to blast and shrapnel, so this should not be unrealistic!
2) Slow the gun traverse speed... at least azimiuth, and possibly elevation as well. Traverse was by hand, so this does not seem unrealistic or unreasonable. Current turret is at least as fast as that on an M1A2. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
LONG TERM:
Make the Osty a "perked" vehicle in 1.05+, whenever the system is finalized.
Comments? HTC, what do you think?
BB
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
If an osty gets to a field, takes down the vehicle hangar then procedes to vulch aircraft.. the problem isn't that the osty is uber.. its that the defenders weren't paying attention.
Problem is that respawns put the attackers right back within range and in order to KEEP them from respawning that close you have to close a VH which can be 25 miles away on a field HEAVILY defended.
Today, there were only 11 Bishs on with 20 something Rooks and Knits. I spent a full three hours dropping eggs on Ostdweebs to keep our fields open.
I dont enjoy defending fields from vehicles, I enjoy dogfiting and it seems every dweeb and his brother is driving a friggin tank nowadays. AH is turning into a tank sim and I dont care for it.
-Ding
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I hate having to deal with 10 Ostwinds rolling on to a base. The VH is down within 20 seconds and they sit there and pound away, often only trying to keep the VH down and vulch. Many times I'll take a Ostie out and use it as a weapon to deal with a field rather than a panzer.
I wouldn't mind seeing them as only defensive vehicles, i.e. spawn only at hanger, not at spawn point. We already have a zillion Ostwinds up at a base the second it starts to get attacked so what difference would it make. This using them like a tank with a rapid fire gun is a little tiring. The only thing an Ostwind isn't good at is killing Panzers at long range.
Soda
The Wrecking Crew