Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: fscott on October 14, 2000, 11:08:00 PM
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Here's some numbers from "The Great Book Of World War II Airplanes", written by 8 authors including legendary Jeffrey L. Ethell. I am sure some of you have this book. For those that don't, it is over 600 pages in length and covers 12 of the great combat aircraft of WW2, including every variant and prototype. I would assume the data is at least accurate enough to compare to performances in AH.
First a quote about the NiK2-J: "In combat 'George' was regarded as an ineffective interceptor due to it's relatively poor climbing capability. However, the Shiden Kai, as it was named, was considered an outstanding fighter in air engagements on equal terms with the best Allied fighter aircraft."
There are two interesting points here. First it had a poor climb rate for interepting allied bombers. Second, it was considered on equal terms with the best allied pacific aircraft. We all know it is a great turner and has good top speed, it is the climb rate that I argue. Someone stated that AH models the Niki as climing to 6000 meters in just over 5 minutes. That seems like a pretty good climb rate to me. Now for the official data from this same book.
Model 21 NiK2-J "George"
Max speed: 321 kts (369 mph) at 5600 m (18,370ft)
Time to climb to 6,000 meters (19,690ft): 7 min 22 sec.
Weights: Empty 5858 lbs, Loaded 8820 lbs.
Engine: Nakajima Homare 21 rated at 1825 hp at 5740ft.
Seems to me that if AH models the Niki at just over 5 min to 6000 meters, something is definately wrong.
fscott
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If other than 'LW uber fan' is talking against N1K2, then 'LW whiners' does not go through this time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Read this thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005910.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005910.html)
Read what Vermillion and GATT are saying.
Then go look at the N1K2 performance chart: http://www.hitechcreations.com/n1k2.html (http://www.hitechcreations.com/n1k2.html)
N1K2 in AH does indeed have very poor climb above 10k feet. Against a bomber near 30k feet it would be a useless plane, with less than 1000 fpm climb rate.
It's also got a poor top speed near 375 mph, and that speed is possible only in a narrow altitude range.
Just because you found a book with different climb and speed data than Pyro has, it doesn't mean you are right and he is wrong.
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Funked,
top speed is right, climb time is somehow strange indeed. However, what I find amazing are not those figures, but the way the kite can handle E. Now, with 1.04 FM the thing is even worst.
What I have learned in one year must be re-learned. Those green devils can do a flat turn, without loosing E, and then accelerate to catch up with a fast non manoeuvering extending fighter? Hmmmmmm ....
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GATT
4° Stormo Caccia - Knights (http://www.4stormo.it)
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Maybe the people who measured the 7'22" climb didn't use WEP? What was the weight and power setting for this test?
As for energy retention, let's see some calculations or test data on what it should do in real life. Otherwise any complaints are just pure B.S.
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BS apart, the real problems are the arena balance and FM credibility. You can model any kite the way you want, however she must fit well in the plane set.
In the MA you encounter NIKIs and C-Hogs, 4x20mm kites, E-wonder kites, does it tell you anything? Balance, you have to preserve it.
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Some books say that N1K2-J climbs to 19685ft in 7min 22sec.
Against those, IJN official manual says that N1K2-J climbs to 19685ft in 6min 20sec.
When performance of N1K2-J was measured in the Japanese navy,
weight of N1k2-J was 3800kg(8388lbs).
The maximum speed wasn't measured with the full performance of the engine.
The pilot traning manual for N1K2-J says as follows.
climbing : 2900rpm, manifold pressure 250mm/Hg, speed 149mile.
The "Homare" engine(NK9H) full perfomance
: 3000rpm, manifold pressure 350mm/Hg(over boost 500mm/Hg).
[This message has been edited by busa (edited 10-16-2000).]
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Maybe B.S. was the wrong word. I'm not accusing anybody of being dishonest.
However I just don't see the balance problem. N1K2 was an outstanding design - it SHOULD be a popular plane. Similar to the F8F if you look at the design parameters.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-15-2000).]
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Thx for infos BUSA. Well, I can stand a late war plane set, thats my problem.
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Glad to see this thread is taking on a different tone than the rpevious Niki thread. Look, I'm not debating whether AH models the Niki correctly. I stated some numbers and am simply questioning if someone says the Niki climbc this much in AH and book numbers say different it is something to consider.
Someone just said, hey until you have real numbers on E-bleeding for Niki, it is all BS. The I think the same should/would apply to HiTech and the team. Let's see their numbers. Where do they get the numbers to input into the code? Is there a book, is there documentation, let's see it.
I'm not demanding anything. Asking only. Since this seems to be a hot issue with many $30 per month subscribers who demand accuracy, I think it would be fitting to see where the team gets their numbers. I think that would put an end to the debate as to whether the Niki can do what it can do in the arena.
fscott
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Well the N1K2 still has a FUBAR flaps worked into the model, and the Homare engine worked once out of every three flights, and lack of trained ground crews made things even worse (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway, I don't think the proper drag is being induced on the N1K2 during manuvers. Either the combat flaps are already included and have no drag upon being deployed (and a second set of flaps that do add drag but their purpose isn't quite clear to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif))
It's that or the N1K2 does not have it's combat flaps and should turn even better then it does now.
Someone got data on the flap deployment in landing/takeoff situations?
- Jig
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The George is 3000 lbs lighter than a Hellcat with the same power. How fast could a Hellcat climb to 20k? Take that time, multiply by 0.75 and see which 'official' figure is closer.
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Ah hell Wells, its a Japanese plane.
That means its slow, it has no guns, and has no power !!!
Oh wait... it doesn't??
ITS PORKED ITS PORKED!!! NUETER IT !! NUETER IT !!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
You guys are really gonna be hating life when the Ki-84Ib gets in the game. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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no reason to hate it cause sooner or later some people are gonna have enouph of it and just take there dollars elsewhere
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Wells did some calculations of how well the planes should retain energy in a 4-g turn in this thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005416.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005416.html)
Here's the results, with higher numbers being better, results scaled so the Spit is 100.
Spit IX - 100
N1K2 - 82 (100% fuel, fuel capacity is unknown)
P-38L - 81
Macchi 205 -77
Typhoon - 73
Yak-9U - 72
109G10 - 72
F4u-1D - 69
La-5FN - 69
P-51D - 68
P-47D - 66
Fw-190A8 - 62
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If you're so sure you're getting beat by the plane and not the player...fly their plane. I suspect you'll soon discover it's the player that's been beating you.
I'll bet anything if you only had one plane in this game, making everything equal, that you would still have people complaining (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
yowser
[This message has been edited by yowser (edited 10-15-2000).]
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Fscott if you want such an answer you should post in the aircraft forum. A lot of the information used to create the FMs is the result of expensive and time-consuming research. So don't be surprised if HTC doesn't want to share. And keep in mind they have already given us the climb and speed charts.
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LOL Yowser so true! You could put the same FM on all of them (keep the graphics as-is) and people would still find something to complain about. In fact I'd like to see HTC do this as a "Pepsi Challenge". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-15-2000).]
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You guys are really gonna be hating life when the Ki-84-Ib gets in the game.
Hehehe, I was just thinking that same thing last night. GEORGE's brother-in-law FRANK is even better than he is. 800lbs lighter and 30mph faster, four Head-on-5 cannon...
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Let's model LW planes also by 100 octane testings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Let's model LW planes also by 100 octane testings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Only if the Japanese get to use their 100 octane test data. Think ya'd mind 400+mph N1K2s? How about 380mph A6M5bs?
Sisu
-Karnak
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Well the n1ki is sure pulling some death defying manoevres.
I merged with one from a hi 5k split (15k/10k) in a tiff, he was climbing up so his E wasn't great, I passed straight curved up and went into a 60 degree zoom, the n1ki does a 180 then pulls up and follows me... and starts gaining and then blammo I'm dead. There was at least 4 seconds between the merge and me dying.
I couldn't believe my eyes, I was BnZ'ing this n1ki from a definite alt advantage, pulled no hard turns etc. He comes from a lesser E position, pulls a hard 180, and climbs AND gains on me.
Something ain't right in Kansas.
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Fishu, Fw 190A-8 and Fw 190A-5 are modeled from 100 octane testing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-15-2000).]
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Originally posted by funked:
Fishu, Fw 190A-8 and Fw 190A-5 are modeled from 100 octane testing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-15-2000).]
*if* it is so, then why does N1K2s have anti-gravitation fields?
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If the late war Japanese aircraft got to actually use 100 octane flight test data it would scare the ever living crap outta yah.
427 mph Ki-84
Why would you fly anything else?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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From the TAIC manual, it appears that their data for the George 11 comes directly from the Rex model. They used the same weight as the Rex for their calculations (7700 lbs) in which they give 5.5 min to 20k and 407 mph top speed. They even gave it the benefit of water injection, doing the calcs for 2050 hp (92 fuel grade). It appears that they eventually got their hands on a George 21 and found it to be 1100 lbs heavier with a HP rating of 1990. Given that information, a time to climb of 6.5 min is reasonable as there is no climb data given.
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Please stop talking about the KI84. Im getting a woody.
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Wow, that's fast Verm. Pity it had no guns eh?
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No it had guns, its just that it probably had no ammunition (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Doesn't matter much. You know as well as I do, that total weight has only a small affect on Maximum Speed. Weight is more a factor in acceleration and handling.
So with a rough guess, I figure that max speed would be effect by around 5mph if you added ammunition weight to it.
I'll still take a 420mph Ki84 any day of the week. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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I think theorizing on a plane's performance when using the infamous *if* is a waste of time. Also, I think it is unfair and unrealistic to base an aircraft's performance on equipment and fuel that was never hsitorically used. I'm sure we could soup up any old warbird with today's latest fuel technology and get even more horsepower out of them. This isn't what I want and I don't think it's what anyone else wants. Just because post-war tests using different fuels brought a particular aircraft up to it's maximum performance does not permit AH or any other sim to model that performance data. Unless of course the sim's goal is to model thus. I think that AH is meant to be historically accurate. Even if Japan was using 70 octane fuel and could only get 330mph out of a Ki-84 than that's what the sim should model, otherwise I would want no part in it.
fscott