Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: GODO on September 28, 2004, 03:10:30 PM
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After looking at several pictures of the frontal instrument panel of D9s I've found that the pair of "Gerät 21" switchers at the central column remain as in 190A8. Was D9 capable of loading these rockets or were these switchers used for other purposes?
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The switchers can be clearly seen in this picture:
(http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Luftwaffe/fockewulf/images/Fw190D9%20Cockpit.jpg)
and here:
(http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/fw190/fw190d%20cockpit-01.jpg)
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I'm still impressed how modern the 190's cockpit look compared to most other WWII aircraft. It is not difficult to see that the engineers were pilots.
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Spot on Scholzie.
Look even at some light aircraft today.
The fw 190 cockpit and controls were practically space age in their time.
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It was a space age aircraft for its day, for sure.
It helps to have the designers fly their own design in combat. What amazes me is the amount of "tweaking" done to the FW-190 over its lifetime. Hundreds of changes were made to the design over it's lifetime to improve it. Everything from the fuel delivery ( sans SU Pump for the Spitfire), control surfaces, props, internal structure, and engine improvements.
The NASM just finished restoring a BMW 801TS motor. The Kommandgerat for a BMW 801G2 was sent to them to help in it's restoration. The NASM couldn't figure it out! They have sent it to NASA for reverse engineering.
For example there is a tube on the G-2 crate motor with no corresponding color code in the DIN L5 specifications. What could this mean? We can only vaguely speculate on a possible function. It is very mysterious as it ends BEHIND the lufterrad and is directed toward it! Fire supression??
It's funny. If you read the US Navy report the US pilots disliked the Kommandgerat because it did not give them complete control over the A/C settings. The Kommandgerat could with one lever adjusted fuel mixture, throttle, and prop pitch to their precise optimum settings for the altitude and airspeed the plane was travelling. It would also adjust them to maintain optimum settings without input from the pilot. It was in essence a "Go" lever.
Additionally at anytime the pilot could switch the Kommandgerat off and adjust everything manually to include the supercharger gearing.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
What amazes me is the amount of "tweaking" done to the FW-190 over its lifetime. Hundreds of changes were made to the design over it's lifetime to improve it. Everything from the fuel delivery ( sans SU Pump for the Spitfire), control surfaces, props, internal structure, and engine improvements.
Nothing amazing about 'tweaking' on the 190, all a/c had mods done to 'tweak' their performance.
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Nothing amazing about 'tweaking' on the 190, all a/c had mods done to 'tweak' their performance.
Yes Milo,
All A/C did get mods. However most people think the BMW 801D2 engine that went into the FW-190A3 is the same motor that is in the FW-190A8. It is not.
Crumpp
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FW-190A3 was the last 190 with not-overridable Kommandogerät.
190D and Ta152 had also an equivalent to the 801D Kommandogerät as well as 109s. I read somewhere that the "mechanical computer" attached to the Doras Jumos was far more advanced than the BMW system. Still trying to find info about the Jumo device.
We can also add the usage of control rods instead of cables to move the control surfaces, these rods were much better than typical cables, eliminating any "lag" in control surfaces response.
BTW, any info about the rockets usage in Doras?
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190D and Ta152 had also an equivalent to the 801D Kommandogerät as well as 109s.
Interesting. Never heard of any other engine except for the BMW-801 series with the Kommandogerat.
What I have found fascinating is the fact that the Kommandogerat was not just an "autopilot" for the engine. It actually sensed the state of the motor real-time and adjusted things to keep the engine at optimum performance.
When you hear the expression "mechanical computer" we tend to think that it is a simple machine. For example, push the "throttle" to this point and the engine settings change to this every time. The reality is far different.
It was in every sense of the word a "brain box" for the motor.
Take propeller efficiency for example. A prop is most efficient when set for a certain engine rpm, blade angle, and prop rpm. You can adjust for engine rpm changes by either adjusting the blade angle (constant speed) or the prop rpm.
The Kommandogerat in real time continuously monitored and adjusted this relationship to keep it at its most efficient as well as dozens of other functions of the motor.
Crumpp
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BTW
The Dora could carry WGr. 21 rockets.
There was an entire staffle outfitted with R4M rockets and Panzerblitz's rockets were also commonly mounted in the final months of the war.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Interesting. Never heard of any other engine except for the BMW-801 series with the Kommandogerat.
He did not say it was Kommandogerat of the BMW. Jumo developed their own.
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We all know Kurt Tank ruled.
He was probed by aliens that gave him superior intelect,thus the 190 was born :D
In the JG26 book by A Price there was an anecdote that stated that in the Dora everything was electric everything was push this do that and everything else .
BTW Mando sueña que eso no va , te puedes hacer pajas pensado en eso pq de aqui a un milenio te lo ponen en el juego.
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190D and Ta152 had also an equivalent to the 801D Kommandogerät as well as 109s.
I did some checking into this. I believe folks are confusing the "automatic" setting that was standard on VDM propellers after 1940 with the Kommandogerat.
When set to automatic VDM propellers would adjust pitch in accordance with engine rpm. The pilot still adjusted the throttle, mixture, and managed the engine. This means that depending on the what throttle setting the pilot chose, while the prop would be adjusted most efficiently for the that engine rpm, the most efficient settings for the entire package might not be in effect.
It is not the same thing as the Kommandogerat. The Kommandogerat monitored the functioning of the engine and adjusted it accordingly. It also adjusted the propeller. The level of sophistication and accuracy is much higher on the Kommandogerat. Unless it was switched to manual, the "throttle" lever on the BMW-801 simply told the Kommandogerat the pilot wanted more speed. The Kommandgerat would then continously adjust both the prop and the engine throughout the powerband/airspeed curve keeping them at the most efficient setting to gain the speed the pilot requested.
The DB 605 series did have a "ladendruckregler" hydraulic regulator which automatically monitored the boost pressure and prevented damage from overboosting.
Crumpp
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BMW Kommandogerät diagram (http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-wr-e-192/index.cgi?page0025.gif)
Crumpp, the Jumo system was based in the very same principles as BMW Kommandogerät, in fact, the 190D throttle control from the cockpit was just the very same as for 190A. What I read is that Jumo system was simply more efficient than BMW system (also 3 years more modern).
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Crumpp, the Jumo system was based in the very same principles as BMW Kommandogerät,
Do you have any documentation on it. Nothing I have shows the FW-190D9 with anything like a Kommandogerat. All the documentation I have says the Jumo had the regular VDM automatic propeller and the hydraulic manifold regulator.
in fact, the 190D throttle control from the cockpit was just the very same as for 190A.
Yes it is the same lever but it does not perform the same function. It is simply a throttle AFAIK.
What I read is that Jumo system was simply more efficient than BMW system (also 3 years more modern
It had some automatic features but not on the scale or sophistication of the Kommandogerat, AFAIK.
BTW that link leads to a diagram of a 1942 Kommandgerat. Test was conducted in 1944 of an FW-190A3 BMW801D2. It is only good for a 1942 engine. The Kommandogerat was constantly upgraded and improved. The one mounted on a 1944 FW-190A8 is completely different from the one mounted on an FW-190A3. To the point it has to be reverse engineered by NASA in 2004 if an FW-190F8 is going to fly with it.
Last paragraph:
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-wr-e-192/index.cgi?page0004.gif
Time Frame of the test is in the third paragraph:
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-wr-e-192/index.cgi?page0003.gif
Crumpp
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Dora Kommandogerat...
(http://detailsite3.tripod.com/d13/d13.kommandogerat2.jpg)
(http://detailsite3.tripod.com/d13/d13.kommandogerat1.jpg)
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Grunhertz,
Your pictures did not come through.
I am getting in touch with some folks who actually have a Dora to find out exactly what the deal is with it's "Kommandogerat".
Crumpp
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Originally posted by GODO
FW-190A3 was the last 190 with not-overridable Kommandogerät.
190D and Ta152 had also an equivalent to the 801D Kommandogerät as well as 109s. I read somewhere that the "mechanical computer" attached to the Doras Jumos was far more advanced than the BMW system. Still trying to find info about the Jumo device.
Yep, that was Schwarze man in the LEMB :)
Further to the Kommandogerate question. No, the 213 had full automatic engine and propellor control which was far better than the BMW KG system. The BMW system was not the be all/ end all that is portrayed! It suffered from design weaknesses and was an over-complex system which was out-performed by the less complex systems of DB and Jumo!! The Jumo 213 had a single-lever power control with automatic propellor. AFAIK it worked better than the BMW system. You can look it up on the NACA history site!
.....The common feature of the German fighter aero-engine controls (post 1942) was the single lever operation. This mode of operation links the engine and the propellor function to one control lever. The DB,Jumo and BMW systems were very different in detail. However, they controlled the engine and propellor with similar functionality. That is, the pilot only had to basically move the "Throttle" lever to adjust the power at all speeds and altitudes, the automatik systems adjusted the mixture, ignition timing, supercharger speed, manifold pressure, engine speed(via prop pitch) and even MW/GM1.
Now, each version of engine had its own particular set-up with variations. If you want to talk about the 213A, it was a good fully-automatic control. The pilot had no input to propellor control, it was linked to the throttle and gave the correct engine speed for the throttle setting, by adjusting blade pitch. If you have thoughts that the bomber pilots were moved to the Dora because of the engine controls,well, sounds unlikely to me.
Maybe the initial 213A in the D-9 gave similar low alt performance to the A-8. However, it was better at high alt and opened the door to spectacular performance with the 213E/F. It also maybe used 213A motors that were available in 44.
Development of the 213 was pushed hard in 44/45. The use of MW was only possible in late 44 when the equipment was produced. The increase in manifold pressure to give 1900PS gave an increase of power upto about 6km and was an intrim upgrade whilst waiting for the development of the MW system and later upgrades.
MW was usually used at lower altitudes to allow the use of higher manifold pressure and therefore, power. I believe it was also used with GM-1 in some late 213 engines.
Hope this helps, I feel that you need lots of info!
@Crumpp, to see the pictures: right click over the image, 'properties' , copy & paste the url.
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You can look it up on the NACA history site!
He is comparing a 1942 Kommandogerat. That is not the same thing as a 1944 Kommandogerat.
AFAIK it worked better than the BMW system.
And whoever wrote this is not prepared to state for a fact it worked better. I would say, with more experience and more time to perfect such a complicated device, BMW probably had the edge over Junkers.
Nobody is claiming the FW-190A outperformed the Dora. The Dora developed roughly the same power (later versions more) with a lot less drag.
Crumpp
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Oh, i think Schwarze man is very well prepared :)
Btw i forgot to link the topic http://p069.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm95.showMessage?topicID=14.topic
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I know SM.
I am Ketjg26 on the LEMB. Old nick and it won't let me change it.
http://p069.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm9.showMessage?topicID=266.topic&index=13
There were over 8 different manuals printed for the Kommandgerat during the FW-190A8's lifecycle!
There were LOTS of improvements to the Kommandgerat.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Grunhertz,
Your pictures did not come through.
I am getting in touch with some folks who actually have a Dora to find out exactly what the deal is with it's "Kommandogerat".
Crumpp
Pictures are of the D13 "Yellow 10" W.Nr. 836017 undergoing restoraton..
Here is the whole gallery:
http://detailsite3.tripod.com/d13/d13.htm
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Pictures are of the D13 "Yellow 10" W.Nr. 836017 undergoing restoraton..
Thanks Grun.
I have seen them before. Beautiful airplane!
Crumpp
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Did you find the Kommandogerat pictres towards the bottom? They are the 2 picures in the thrird row from the bottom of the page.
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Did you find the Kommandogerat pictres towards the bottom? They are the 2 picures in the thrird row from the bottom of the page.
Yes I have seen them before. That device corresponds perfectly with the "Ladedruckregelar" which was a automatic hydraulic boost control system.
Crumpp
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I'd really like to have a D-11, 12 or 13 added as a perk ride. :)
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Yes I would love to have a D11 D12 or D13 as as perk rides.
That or the 399mph on the deck late model FW190D9. This would be a perfect counterpard to the Tempest which would still be much more manouverable and have heavier firepower.
Either way make the icon: DORA
:)
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That or the 399mph on the deck late model FW190D9. This would be a perfect counterpard to the Tempest which would still be much more manouverable and have heavier firepower.
I would love to see it AH. Don't discount the Dora's manuverability. Maj. Heinz Lang romped all over a Tempest in an RAF post-war tactical trial in a D13.
Crumpp