Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on September 30, 2004, 10:08:21 PM
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"Your 2nd country is Poland?":rofl
Jon Stewart is tearing them up!
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yes so far the daily show has been really unbiased.....insert rollie eye thingie.
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What's wrong with Poland?
-Sik
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to the open minded liberal its some how less of a country.
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GDP per capita:
1. Luxembourg ($48309 per person)
2. United States ($35991 per person)
..
..
..
76. Poland ($9662 per person)
Military expenditures per capita
1. Israel ($1466 per person)
3. United States ($953 per person)
..
..
..
54. Poland ($90 per person)
Poland IS less of a country.
source (http://www.nationmaster.com/top_stats.php)
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yikes sand....so I guess we should let them eat cake then?
or how bout the people in sudan, that are not worthey then either right? I mean they have no money at all. So lets belittle them to.
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Well after a long day of stoned slacking ... Poland is funny.
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Wow Sandman, that kicks ass! Obviously what we need is a coalition of Bermuda- Per capita GDP= $34893.45 (go get your uniform ready Curval!) and Brunai- Military expenditures=$920.69 per person. And check out where Russia falls on those lists.
-Sik
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The topic was allies in the war in Iraq, not aid to poor countries.
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Originally posted by Sandman
GDP per capita:
1. Luxembourg ($48309 per person)
2. United States ($35991 per person)
..
..
..
76. Poland ($9662 per person)
Military expenditures per capita
1. Israel ($1466 per person)
3. United States ($953 per person)
..
..
..
54. Poland ($90 per person)
Poland IS less of a country.
source (http://www.nationmaster.com/top_stats.php)
An ex-girlfriend had her cousin over from Poland for the summer... Works as a waitress for $1 per hour in Krakow. She's college age, and evidently part of what is known over there as the "Lost Generation"...
Many people over there evidently feel that when we've had our fill with them, when we've used them enough, they'll be left to the wolves... Not as though we haven't done that to them before.
The place has one of the saddest economies in Europe... But, then again, basically for the majority of the last century, their best and brightest, their leaders, visionaries, and go-getters, were systematically slaughtered by various brutal regimes.
The kids these days don't know what to do with themselves. Over there, they don't go to college to party, they go to college to work their bellybutton off, and then when they graduate, their college diploma is seen by many as a worthless piece of paper...
Many I've met actually preferred communism... For the simple reason that at least then they had work.
That's just a very, very sad statement for how well we help our Allies. And yes, they are an Ally, one of what seems these days to be our few.
Now I'm not going to say I know the whole story, I've never been to Poland and everything I've said is based on the opinions of a relative few (maybe 5-6 Poles in total). But I will say that I believe them and they have my sympathy.
They are most certainly NOT any less of a country. At least not according to the values I've been raised to believe. That "all men are created equal". Not just the strong or rich. All.
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No question... The people of Poland are no different than the people anywhere else.
We're talking about warfare. In April, Poland had 2,400 troops in Iraq. The U.S. had 137,000. The total number was 152,000.
FWIW, Poland was #4 on the list behind Italy (3000).
...and isn't Poland planning on withdrawing troops in '05? I'm guessing that this is the reason Bush mentioned them and not Italy.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Well after a long day of stoned slacking ...
:rofl
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Originally posted by rpm371
"Your 2nd country is Poland?":rofl
Jon Stewart is tearing them up!
BTW... that bit between Ed Helms and Rob Corddry was the best part... arguing over who did the best job holding their own. :rofl
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Then by YOUR own source Poland is giving MORE to the Iraq cause than the US.
It's like the guy who puts ten dollars in the poor box, and only HAD ten dollars. And a guy puts in 40 dollars but had 200 in his pocket. WHO contributed MORE?
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Sandman
GDP per capita:
1. Luxembourg ($48309 per person)
2. United States ($35991 per person)
..
..
..
76. Poland ($9662 per person)
Military expenditures per capita
1. Israel ($1466 per person)
3. United States ($953 per person)
..
..
..
54. Poland ($90 per person)
Poland IS less of a country.
source (http://www.nationmaster.com/top_stats.php)
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Originally posted by Sandman
No question... The people of Poland are no different than the people anywhere else.
We're talking about warfare. In April, Poland had 2,400 troops in Iraq. The U.S. had 137,000. The total number was 152,000.
FWIW, Poland was #4 on the list behind Italy (3000).
...and isn't Poland planning on withdrawing troops in '05? I'm guessing that this is the reason Bush mentioned them and not Italy.
why you insult us Poles?
we go there in good faith, as usual in our history
even if our allies not treat us well and cheat us in the past
i dont remember we left our allies anytime in our history
we give what we can give to the war effort
we are poor country, just cant afford more
if you have to choose money spended for social help and for troops what would you choose?
yes we can send more troops but who will feed them? who wil give them new stuff to protect yourself and to fight?
Turkry get more money for supporting US then we , Israael get more money every year from US, they we got ever.
We make fool by ourself, but we never left allies alone
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Originally posted by NUTTZ
Then by YOUR own source Poland is giving MORE to the Iraq cause than the US.
It's like the guy who puts ten dollars in the poor box, and only HAD ten dollars. And a guy puts in 40 dollars but had 200 in his pocket. WHO contributed MORE?
NUTTZ
TY
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Originally posted by ramzey
why you insult us Poles?
we go there in good faith, as usual in our history
even if our allies not treat us well and cheat us in the past
i dont remember we left our allies anytime in our history
we give what we can give to the war effort
we are poor country, just cant afford more
if you have to choose money spended for social help and for troops what would you choose?
yes we can send more troops but who will feed them? who wil give them new stuff to protect yourself and to fight?
Turkry get more money for supporting US then we , Israael get more money every year from US, they we got ever.
We make fool by ourself, but we never left allies alone
No offence but you're talking like you still live there, or maybe there is a San Jose in Poland as well?
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i was there till year ago from now
i have friends and family there
i have wife there
i know history of my country quite well ;)
there are my roots
i read polish newspaper, Polish internet services and discussion groups about history, militaria.........
I live in San Jose right now
I allways will be Pole beucose i was born in Poland
so, what you trying to sugest?
i cannot live in other place then Poland and be still Polish guy?
edit: its about 10 milions of Poles in US and other 30 spread around the world.
Bush need support of this folks in US, thats why he mention about Poland. Anyway not many allies left with US, special 6his one who not get to much from US pocket and still keep with them
situation in Poland was pretty good described by Vidak, its not about all poles but about many of them{us}.
But, like in every other country we have rich, middle and poor people.
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I live in poland, if you have any serious questions, I'll be happy to field them.
As for Poland being a supporter in "war on terror" in Iraq :rolleyes:
I assure you it wasn't a popular decision here, likely next election it will become a large issue. I doubt if withdrawal is likely, as we are too proud in military terms to live with impression of running away :)
Economy is ****, agreed, however, Sandman, if western allies didn't sell on the plate whole eastern europe in 1944 to a known mass murderer, it prabably wouldn't have been so.
Yes, it wasn't realistic to do anything about it at that point, however we still live with the consequences of that decision today. You had 50 years to develop, we had 50 years to keep moving back.
However, it seems that our old enemies, Germans, are now happy to help us dig ourselves out of the hole that we were left in, in 1945. They literaly pushed Poland into EU last year and helped it all along the way.
I'm ashamed at the way we repay them. But that's whole another topic.
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Whatewver happends I'm sure Poland will lose the most. Man have your people suffered a lot this past century.. :(
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My mom is Polish.
I can say this, Polish people are one of the hardest working ppl on planet earth. And they got VERY thick skin.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Well after a long day of stoned slacking ... Poland is funny.
lol Lurv it!! :lol
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Salute to Poland.
At least they are trying to help instead of sitting on the sidelines like a few larger, more powerful western european countries are doing hoping the terrorists win.
It's much harder to do a good deed than bad.
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" sitting on the sidelines like a few larger, more powerful western european countries are doing hoping the terrorists win."
HUH? France and Germany are helping out in Afghanistan just as Poland is. A big and WTG to these allies for helping out in the honest fight against terrorism!
Oh. My bad.
This is about Iraq.
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Poland is THERE. Where's the French troops? The German Troops? The Russian troops?
Poland.
Kerry is an ass.
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Originally posted by OIO
Poland is THERE. Where's the French troops? The German Troops? The Russian troops?
Poland.
Kerry is an ass.
Humm.. Where are the rebuilding contracts being offered for bid to the Germans, French, and Russians??
Outside that, why should they be? Are they safer now with no SH? It seems they do not believe so. Are they safer now that we have removed all the WMDs from Iraqi? O, wait.. DOH!!
You guys forget these countries are and have been helping the real war in Afganistan?
Bush is a ass..
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I ate a Polish sausage once so does my opinion matter less?
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Humm.. Where are the rebuilding contracts being offered for bid to the Germans, French, and Russians??
Outside that, why should they be? Are they safer now with no SH? It seems they do not believe so. Are they safer now that we have removed all the WMDs from Iraqi? O, wait.. DOH!!
You guys forget these countries are and have been helping the real war in Afganistan?
Bush is a ass..
You seem to forget WHY they didn't get to bid on the contracts. They wouldn't support us in the war so why should they profit from it?
Oh wait they profited BEFORE the war with all the illegal activities with Iraq.
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Originally posted by Mighty1
You seem to forget WHY they didn't get to bid on the contracts. They wouldn't support us in the war so why should they profit from it?
Oh wait they profited BEFORE the war with all the illegal activities with Iraq.
Humm.. how many contracts have poland, England, and ... humm.. I guess thats the list.. Well, anyway... How many contracts have these countries been able to bid on??
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Originally posted by Sandman
GDP per capita:
1. Luxembourg ($48309 per person)
2. United States ($35991 per person)
Interesting!
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Dude, Poles are good in my book. They have the balls to fight when other people surrender.
like this one time when france surrendered in record time, and Poland charged German Tanks with cavalry.
Any group of people that does this has my respect forever.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Dude, Poles are good in my book. They have the balls to fight when other people surrender.
like this one time when france surrendered in record time, and Poland charged German Tanks with cavalry.
Any group of people that does this has my respect forever.
No doubt. I dont think Polish valor is in question here. I have seen no one in this thread nor ever heard anyone questoining this.
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"Are they safer now that we have removed all the WMDs from Iraqi?"
Why dont you ask the Kurds that?
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List of allies and govenment statements:
US allies in war on terror (http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/news/20030326-7.html)
Salute to them all.
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Hey Bart ! I hope your enjoying your new home :)
Here's a question for you. My mothers family was Prussian. Immigrated over in 1880s (or so). I believe that is now part of Poland.
So, does that make me German or Polish? ;)
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Originally posted by OIO
"Are they safer now that we have removed all the WMDs from Iraqi?"
Why dont you ask the Kurds that?
lol My question was a rhetorical one since no WMDs have been found...
Perhaps the Kurds should ask Iran?
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"... How many contracts have these countries been able to bid on??"
Ooooh. Trick question!!
There has been no bidding for work in Iraq. All of it has been handed to Haliburton and it's KBR subsidiary, sans bids, by the current US administration.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Dude, Poles are good in my book. They have the balls to fight when other people surrender.
like this one time when france surrendered in record time, and Poland charged German Tanks with cavalry.
Any group of people that does this has my respect forever.
What achievement are trying to make force you to insult my country each time you can ?
dork.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Humm.. how many contracts have poland, England, and ... humm.. I guess thats the list.. Well, anyway... How many contracts have these countries been able to bid on??
The axis of the corrupt(France Germany Russia) got what they deserved which was nothing.
So NOW your worried about our allies.
Are they complaining? If so who? What contract were the NOT able to bid on that they wanted to?
Question is did any of our allies WANT to bid on any of these contracts?
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Originally posted by ramzey
why you insult us Poles?
we go there in good faith, as usual in our history
even if our allies not treat us well and cheat us in the past
i dont remember we left our allies anytime in our history
we give what we can give to the war effort
we are poor country, just cant afford more
if you have to choose money spended for social help and for troops what would you choose?
yes we can send more troops but who will feed them? who wil give them new stuff to protect yourself and to fight?
Turkry get more money for supporting US then we , Israael get more money every year from US, they we got ever.
We make fool by ourself, but we never left allies alone
Ramzey, you must understand that I am not ridiculing Poland or the Polish people. The jist of Stewart's joke is that there many countries that are militarily superior to Poland and yet NONE of them are part of the coalition in Iraq. This is not an indictment of Poland. It's about the U.S. failure to build a truly meaningful coalition of forces. Right now, the U.S. has 90% of the load.
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"lol My question was a rhetorical one since no WMDs have been found...
Perhaps the Kurds should ask Iran?"
Your shallow thinking amazes me.
Iran AND Iraq both had and USED chemical weapons. You do remember they had a war a few decades back dontcha?
Saddam kept using them after the war on civilians, namely the Kurds. Saddam's Iraq had the technical know-how and infrastructure to build and deliver chemical weapons.
Iran has the know-how as well, and they are now persuing nuclear WMD's.
before you answer just THINK on these things for a second.
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Never mind
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Originally posted by OIO
"lol My question was a rhetorical one since no WMDs have been found...
Perhaps the Kurds should ask Iran?"
Your shallow thinking amazes me.
Iran AND Iraq both had and USED chemical weapons. You do remember they had a war a few decades back dontcha?
Saddam kept using them after the war on civilians, namely the Kurds. Saddam's Iraq had the technical know-how and infrastructure to build and deliver chemical weapons.
Iran has the know-how as well, and they are now persuing nuclear WMD's.
before you answer just THINK on these things for a second.
My shallow thinking? I supose from time to time that is probably correct.
Who armed Iraqi during that war?
There is no evidence to date that Iran is pursuing nuclear WMDs..
But still, my shallow thinking cannot come up with where the WMDs are that the kurds were threatened with. Afterall, you chimed in on a discussion about now, not almost 20years ago...
Think about that for a moment.. 8)
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Originally posted by OIO
Poland is THERE. Where's the French troops? The German Troops? The Russian troops?
If Polish government wants it's servicemen die for foreign interests joining agressors - it's up to them... :(
But I don't think my country should send troops anywhere outside Commonwealth borders. We are still responsible for our former republics, but joining agressors or "peacekeeping" forces in Afghanistan is not for us. America should clean the mess they started in the 80s itself.
BTW, Russian assistance to Afghanistan seems to be absolutely unknown in the West. Training, spare parts and repair works for more then $60 million is in fact more then we could afford, but we did it, and everyone keeps pointing at Russia and saying "they don't help!" :rolleyes:
BTW, not only Poland has it's military in Iraq. Who will ever notice Ukrainian troops there?
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"There is no evidence to date that Iran is pursuing nuclear WMDs.."
dont tell me you think they need enriched nuclear fuel to solve their nonexistent energy problems.
"But still, my shallow thinking cannot come up with where the WMDs are that the kurds were threatened with."
Not 'threatened' with. Victims of. BIG difference.
"Afterall, you chimed in on a discussion about now, not almost 20years ago"
This is not 20 years ago. Do a search and see when Saddam last used his chemical toys on the Kurds. Then think about the hundreds of scientists and technicians that knew how to make those weapons... and the hundreds more soldiers who were trained to deliver and deploy said weapons.
Those people are the danger not the physical possession of a canister full of mustard gas or anthrax. Saddam could've very well destroyed all his chemical weapons before the war..and that wouldve accomplished nothing. His people knew how to make them and could go back into production in a matter of months after the existing stockpiles had been destroyed (or sold out to someone else..who knows?).
This is right out of the Cold War man, it didnt matter if one side got the first nuclear strike in, the other side had the capability to rearm and retaliate...and with nukes that means both sides lose no matter what. Because both sides HAD the personnel with the knowledge and had the infrastructure to produce the weaponry afterwards.
Saddam wasnt stupid.
The media however, is full of stupid people. That stupidity is transmitted on the airwaves over and over and over again.
2568 repetitions make it true. (read 'Brave New World' if you dont get that reference).
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So, when do we pull the troops out of Germany and send them to our real friends in Poland? I'm sure their economy would benefit from the infusion of a few (dozen?) Billion dollars a year.
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Originally posted by OIO
"There is no evidence to date that Iran is pursuing nuclear WMDs.."
dont tell me you think they need enriched nuclear fuel to solve their nonexistent energy problems.
"But still, my shallow thinking cannot come up with where the WMDs are that the kurds were threatened with."
Not 'threatened' with. Victims of. BIG difference.
"Afterall, you chimed in on a discussion about now, not almost 20years ago"
This is not 20 years ago. Do a search and see when Saddam last used his chemical toys on the Kurds. Then think about the hundreds of scientists and technicians that knew how to make those weapons... and the hundreds more soldiers who were trained to deliver and deploy said weapons.
Those people are the danger not the physical possession of a canister full of mustard gas or anthrax. Saddam could've very well destroyed all his chemical weapons before the war..and that wouldve accomplished nothing. His people knew how to make them and could go back into production in a matter of months after the existing stockpiles had been destroyed (or sold out to someone else..who knows?).
This is right out of the Cold War man, it didnt matter if one side got the first nuclear strike in, the other side had the capability to rearm and retaliate...and with nukes that means both sides lose no matter what. Because both sides HAD the personnel with the knowledge and had the infrastructure to produce the weaponry afterwards.
Saddam wasnt stupid.
The media however, is full of stupid people. That stupidity is transmitted on the airwaves over and over and over again.
2568 repetitions make it true. (read 'Brave New World' if you dont get that reference).
I cannont make out your point or the point you intended to argue.. Excuse my shallow thinking please..
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"dont tell me you think they need enriched nuclear fuel to solve their nonexistent energy problems."
Let's bury the blind notion that because Iran is an oil rich nation that they would not desire to be independent of oil. It's a hot commododity ($50plus barrel!!) and Iran would be wise sell all they have to China and the Western world while they can. So IMO going nuclear is smart.
Why would they waste any of that "black gold" using any of it themselves, if they do not have to, when they can get gobs of hard Euro currency with which to do other things with? They can put the euro into building new industries and infrastructure so they become won't become just another insignificant, powerless Middle Eastern welfare state when the oil runs out.
(tangent thought: All the while "big oil" in the US burys serious alternative fuel development. Maybe the Persians aren't that self defeating)
Anyway....
Just for the record? I personally believe Iran is pursuing a nuclear capablility.
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Sorry Straffo, you just lose a lot of respect for letting other people walk all over you.
Throughout history I mean, in the context of france.
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France surrended , it's an historical fact right I can live with this.
Ma familly fought in Poland and France during the whole war and for some even before WWII in Spain and I you think the german walked on us ?
You're really a "merdeux".
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what is not funny to me is the way Hanoi Kerry calls all the allies..fake or coerced or not really allies.....not really helping
what a scum bag...
He should just go bak to calling all our US and ALLied Soldiers Baby killing war Criminals..
Hanoi Kerry is treasonous...
very simple..
Poland..you guys kik azzz...salute and thank you
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Originally posted by Mighty1
The axis of the corrupt(France Germany Russia) got what they deserved which was nothing.
So NOW your worried about our allies.
Are they complaining? If so who? What contract were the NOT able to bid on that they wanted to?
Question is did any of our allies WANT to bid on any of these contracts?
Here's 1 (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/World/iraq_rebuilding_contract030322.html)
ABCNEWS has obtained a copy of a 99-page contract worth $600 million.
"We have never in our 40-year history spent this much money in one country in one year," said Andrew S. Natsios, administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development, an independent federal agency that receives overall foreign policy guidance from the State Department.
The USAID contract is filled with details about plans to construct Iraqi schools, airports, roads, bridges, hospitals, power plants and more.
‘Limitations of Competition’
British troops are serving alongside U.S. troops in Iraq. But the closed process blocked British companies, as well as any foreign firm, from bidding.
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Leave Poland alone, they are a great people sorely misused. They have started to arrive here. I've seen several beat up old cars with Polish licence plates on the road hereabouts. To have driven across Europe in cars like that to seek a better life takes fortitude. Plus many Polish women I've seen are beautiful.
All this quibbling about the war in Iraq is pointless. What is needed now is a deep commitment by everyone to rebuild Iraq and keep it out of the hands of the lunatics. That is the REAL issue.
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Poland was my ancestral home for I'm of polish blood. My Grand parents emigrated to US in late 1915, during the dark days of the eastern front of the first war, a war started by the Inbreed royal houses of Europe with way too much time on their hands and an arrogance that was with out bounds. A time when Poland only existed as a dream and had not been on the map since the last partion of 1793.
Polish soul is one of honor, courage and commitment to the civilization of Europe it's self. The Poles have saved Europe and it's very soul many times in history, most noteworthy stopping the Turkish horde at the siege of Vienna 1683, with courage, and superior tactics, were able hold of the Turkish horde from over running the whole of Europe and its culture. And most recently the war with the Bolshevik barbarians at the Miracle on the Vistula were the polish army under the head of Pilsudski, out manned and out gunned beat back the Red Army and saved a Europe ravage by the first war from Soviet conquest.
And in 1939, The Pols stood alone, and fought like men when France and Britain were trying to appease Hitler and then turned their back on defense treaties which, if France and Britain had stood up and did engage the Germans in the first days of ww2, that war may have been stopped right there and would have saved millions of lives in the process.
It was polish pilots, the best trained in Europe, that stood toe to toe with the best the Germans could muster and was able to hold them of for weeks alone. better then the combined forces of France and Britain, with france falling and Britain retreating behind the english channel. And at the fall of poland, most Polish pilots and fighting men were able to escape and fight on at the Battle of Britain and in other batttles to come. These Polish pilots had the highest kill ratio of the war.
The dishonor of Britain France and Truman/Roosevelt to turn it' back on Poland after the war and to allow Poland to be be taken over by the Russian barbarians for over 40 years. Only the courage of Lech Walesa and others to defy the Russians and tp wrest Poland away from that bondage is a story of freedom its self. Because of that courage Poland now finds it self again free and an Indepent Republic, no thanks to the Russians.
Poland now fights with the USA to defeat again a dark forces of Radical Islam and its wish to build a world arab empire that wishes to over run civilization its self, and consistent with on old polish saying….We Fight For Your Freedom and Ours... Poland fights on, with The Usa.
Poland and its sprit shall never die….
Sorry for the ramblings…I hate when people are so ignorant of the huge contribution Poland and its people and what they have done to preserve freedom and civilization it's self and others.
Chi Town Flyer
AKA Mark Kmiecik
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Originally posted by Chitownflyer
And most recently the war with the Bolshevik barbarians at the Miracle on the Vistula were the polish army under the head of Pilsudski, out manned and out gunned beat back the Red Army and saved a Europe ravage by the first war from Soviet conquest.
Something new in historical science.
JFYI: Polish army that invaded Soviet territory in 1920 was 3 times bigger the Soviet Westrn front. 148000 vs. 49600. Nevertheless, they were defeated and ran away from occupied land.
Nice to see that throwing agressors away from our land is now called a "Soviet conquest".
May I ask you one little question? Did you study history at elementary school?
Originally posted by Chitownflyer
The dishonor of Britain France and Truman/Roosevelt to turn it' back on Poland after the war and allow it to be taken over by the Russian barbarians for over 40 years.
Sure, the nation that starved almost 100000 Russian/Soviet POWs to death in 1918-20 is much more civilized then "asian hordes of Jewish bolsheviks" who liberated them from nazis...
I already know what your next argument will be ;)
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Katyn forest, Just wondering if you ever heard of that place… just to remind you if you memory is a little faded, its about the thousands of Polish officers that were executed by the Russian Red army in 1940 see link
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/01/spotlight/
http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/pg62.gif
"….In the spring of 1940, about 4,500 of these officers were taken by their Soviet captors to the Katyn forest. Most were then gagged, bound, shot once in the head and buried on the spot. The other Polish POWs were taken to other locations, where many of them were also executed. The mass liquidation killed off much of Poland's intelligentsia and facilitated the Soviet takeover of the nation. …."
And, one more link for you Mr. Pavlov to fill the "memory hole" some Russians may have
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1791/hole.html
So Mr Pavel Pavlov I guess the term Bolshevik barbarians might apply, so lets not cover up the real truth of the history of the Soviet, Bolshevik Empire and all the Polish people that were carted off and ended up dead in Siberian work camps after the great patriotic war.
By the way some the things that the Russian did in Galicia during its occupation in 1915 offensive, according to my grandmother, would be chilling. It's always been a land of barbarism, at lest what my grandmother told me about Russia.
Any rate, Poland has all ways stood for freedom and it's in stark contrast, historically, with most of Russian history until the very recent past. (1989)
I read history too, so let compare more notes….
Mark Kmiecik
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I guess I just miss the good ole days when france would kick someone's bellybutton for looking at someone wrong.
Now they surrender everytime someone sneezes at them.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Something new in historical science.
JFYI: Polish army that invaded Soviet territory in 1920 was 3 times bigger the Soviet Westrn front. 148000 vs. 49600. Nevertheless, they were defeated and ran away from occupied land.
Nice to see that throwing agressors away from our land is now called a "Soviet conquest".
May I ask you one little question? Did you study history at elementary school?
Sure, the nation that starved almost 100000 Russian/Soviet POWs to death in 1918-20 is much more civilized then "asian hordes of Jewish bolsheviks" who liberated them from nazis...
I already know what your next argument will be ;)
lets go thrue this once agina on this BB
You claim poles kill 100k of russian pow between 1918-1920.
Genesis:
1990 Gorbatchow said true about Katyn then russians propaganda jump on Poland and claim we killed 40-80k russian POW. They need to say something about us, to balance murder they did. OK its propaganda who like to finde excuse for their own purposes. You know its about great russians carring flame of freedom for other nations ;)
True is. In XI.1919 in Poland was 7090 russinas POW, they where located in camps we own after germans and russians.
We where young country and have no special services for carry about POW. But they where treat good. Unfortunly epidemy of tyfus (Typhus exanthematicus) came from russia and poles establish quarantain for prisoners. During this days was no medicine for this desise. In Brest died about 1000 POW due hard living condition.
At the begin of 1920 we create services who care about POW and living condition of imprisoned russians rise for better.
In IV.1920 we take about 18k POW, and after Warsaw battle (moracle on vistula river) we take another 50k.
As sources show at the and of polish -russian war (november 18, 1920) we had at Polish territory about 110k russian POW
But, 25k of them was relase imidiently and join anti bolshewic armies and ukrainian army
So we have 80-85k POW at fall of 1920.
We was not prepared to keep so many POWs at thos days and russian side dont like to exchenge them fast.
I should reminde Poland was destroyed country after ww1 where most of fights take pace on our territory and of course after polish-rssian war.
At begin of winter one more ephidemy spreed out in POWs camps.
But due hard work of our services at the begin of 1921 we allmost get ride of this. Unfortunly as for every ephidemy lots of them die.
In April 1921 we start exchange POWs with russians. 65.797 russians was exchanged for 24k polish troops.965 POW was keep as guarantee for future exchanges.(they where returned in 1922) For permission to stay in Poland ask about 1000 POW and about 1000 of POW other nations (comunists) taken in this war (austrian, ukrainian, Lotish, Germans, hungarians) where returned to their oryginal countries.
So in Poland died from desise about 16-18k POWs, they where not murdered with could blood.
I should reminde you Pavel this epidhemy came form russia where 3 milions people died in same time!!
Biggest ephidemy was in Serbia during ww1 , where in half year in 1915 died 150k people.
From 25 k anti bolshevic forces who was held in Poland after end of war 5000 decide to stay in poland, rest of them return to russia after amnesty or migrate to other countries. This one who stay was arrested after ww2 and killed by NKWD.
they dont wrote that in your news paper Pavel, right? ;)
no wonder ;) its easier to blame somone else to finde excuses, is that not childish?
I thought you are over your own propaganda ;-)
ramzey
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the Poles have been doing great work in Iraq... here is an example.
Troops capture Saddam general
From correspondents in Baghdad
October 03, 2004
A FORMER general in Saddam Hussein's armed forces has been captured along with nine other people in counter-insurgency operations conducted by Polish, US and Iraqi troops in south-central Iraq.
"As a result of the operations, 10 suspects were detained, including a man who was a general in Saddam Hussein's former army and is wanted by Iraqi police," the multinational force said, without identifying the general.
Five of those detained were quickly released after questioning at the scene, the military said.
A cache of AK-47 rifles and ammunition was also recovered along with anti-government propaganda.
The operations, which took place near the mainly Shiite Muslim town of Hilla, south of Baghdad, were "launched in order to prevent terrorist attacks" in the region, the military said.
Poland sent 2500 troops to Iraq last year in the wake of the US-led invasion and heads up a multinational division of 6000 soldiers in south-central Iraq.
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"I already know what your next argument will be"
Originally posted by Chitownflyer
Katyn forest, Just wondering if you ever heard of that place… just to remind you if you memory is a little faded, its about the thousands of Polish officers that were executed by the Russian Red army in 1940 see link
I had long disussions about Katyn tragedy here. I don't know who slaughtered Polish officers there. They were killed from German weapons, and in 1940 there was a recreation park there.
The last reliable document on Katyn still is a Burdenko comission report made in 1944.
What Gorbachev and his gang of traitors said - it's their problem. They are liars and traitors, and most of the papers they gave to Polish side are proven to be fake.
Pan Kmiecik, the history of Rzeczpospolita and Russia/Ukraine is one long conflict. What your brave warriors have done to Ukraine will not be forgotten soon.
As many intelligent Russians I have a guilt complex for Poland, but it doesn't meant anyone is allowed to call my nation "barbaric". Most of the "crimes" you blame us for were just self-defence, like the 1920 Polish invasion.
JFYI: my Grandfather graduated from Warsaw University in 1914. He studied there because he didn't finish classic gymnasium, and couldn't go to ant university in Russia. Only in Polish Kingdom he could study.
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Originally posted by ramzey
Genesis:
1990 Gorbatchow said true about Katyn then russians propaganda jump on Poland and claim we killed 40-80k russian POW. They need to say something about us, to balance murder they did. OK its propaganda who like to finde excuse for their own purposes. You know its about great russians carring flame of freedom for other nations ;)
1) Gorbachev could agree with anything if it contained enough bull***** about "evil bolsheviks" and "russian barbarians". He is a liar and traitor. I hope sooner or later we'll see him hanging on a lamp-post in the street.
:mad:
2) Russian (modern russophobic) propaganda screamed about Katyn on every corner, but the story of Imperial and Soviet POWs was never voiced by mass-media, except some marginal newspapers. I know about it only because I have read some special literature.
Thank you for the figures. I'll try to find my sources again. I understand that information there was in a form of propaganda, just to blame "evil Psheks", but there must be some truth there if you are able to throw away propaganda hype.
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Ahh yes the good old communist boroda shows up again...
Have you kissed your portait of Stalin today Boroda?
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Originally posted by Vudak
An ex-girlfriend had her cousin over from Poland for the summer... Works as a waitress for $1 per hour in Krakow. She's college age, and evidently part of what is known over there as the "Lost Generation"...
Many people over there evidently feel that when we've had our fill with them, when we've used them enough, they'll be left to the wolves... Not as though we haven't done that to them before.
The place has one of the saddest economies in Europe... But, then again, basically for the majority of the last century, their best and brightest, their leaders, visionaries, and go-getters, were systematically slaughtered by various brutal regimes.
The kids these days don't know what to do with themselves. Over there, they don't go to college to party, they go to college to work their bellybutton off, and then when they graduate, their college diploma is seen by many as a worthless piece of paper...
Many I've met actually preferred communism... For the simple reason that at least then they had work.
That's just a very, very sad statement for how well we help our Allies. And yes, they are an Ally, one of what seems these days to be our few.
Now I'm not going to say I know the whole story, I've never been to Poland and everything I've said is based on the opinions of a relative few (maybe 5-6 Poles in total). But I will say that I believe them and they have my sympathy.
They are most certainly NOT any less of a country. At least not according to the values I've been raised to believe. That "all men are created equal". Not just the strong or rich. All.
If you think the recent selling out of Poland is bad, how about you ask your girlfriend's cousin about how the US and British sold out Poland during WW2 to the Soviets... the Soviets raped Poland, executed thousands of her young officers and made the Nazi occupation appear to be by a kindergarden class.
We, as US citizens should forever be ashamed of what this nation did to Poland.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ahh yes the good old communist boroda shows up again...
Have you kissed your portait of Stalin today Boroda?
Are you illiterate? I told you many times I am not a member of a Communist party and never voted for them. I was a Young Communist since 1987, but in 1987 it was almost mandatory if you wanted to go to university... Man, I hated that corrupt stupid organisation! :mad:
Portrait of Stalin? Thanks for a good idea, I'll hang it on a wall at my workplace, and a slogan: "Democracy ends here." :D
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Originally posted by Boroda
"I already know what your next argument will be"
I had long disussions about Katyn tragedy here. I don't know who slaughtered Polish officers there. They were killed from German weapons, and in 1940 there was a recreation park there.
The last reliable document on Katyn still is a Burdenko comission report made in 1944.
What Gorbachev and his gang of traitors said - it's their problem. They are liars and traitors, and most of the papers they gave to Polish side are proven to be fake.
Pan Kmiecik, the history of Rzeczpospolita and Russia/Ukraine is one long conflict. What your brave warriors have done to Ukraine will not be forgotten soon.
As many intelligent Russians I have a guilt complex for Poland, but it doesn't meant anyone is allowed to call my nation "barbaric". Most of the "crimes" you blame us for were just self-defence, like the 1920 Polish invasion.
JFYI: my Grandfather graduated from Warsaw University in 1914. He studied there because he didn't finish classic gymnasium, and couldn't go to ant university in Russia. Only in Polish Kingdom he could study.
Boroda who do you try to cheat?
Katyn was done by same special forces who send people to syberia, who burn hauseholds , fields ahead of walking german army.Tell me thats arent happend and its not russian foult and i start thinking you are blinde for all arguments as any other comunist.
If nazis use this for your own propagand and claim thats not them, they have reason for this.
Claiming Kattyn has no place and we not did that is like we not invade Finland ;) Or like claming general plan about bringing communism for whole europe has no place neather ;-)
Now you try to find every dirt to make us looks worse. Sure we are not saint. And as every country we have dark sides of history too. But compared to russians we are angels.
Dont use word Polish invasioon in 1920, why? its simple
Poland was occupied by russian killers by 124 years. Your countrymens killed a lot of Poles during this time and send thausends to syberia. You killed 4 Polish uprising, try to get ride of our language.
And you are suprised we like back our land in 1920 , when we can fight again?
How many countries is still imprisoned in great russian federacy? huh?
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Originally posted by Bodhi
If you think the recent selling out of Poland is bad, how about you ask your girlfriend's cousin about how the US and British sold out Poland during WW2 to the Soviets... the Soviets raped Poland, executed thousands of her young officers and made the Nazi occupation appear to be by a kindergarden class.
We, as US citizens should forever be ashamed of what this nation did to Poland.
You are not serious , don't you ?
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Originally posted by Boroda
1) Gorbachev could agree with anything if it contained enough bull***** about "evil bolsheviks" and "russian barbarians". He is a liar and traitor. I hope sooner or later we'll see him hanging on a lamp-post in the street.
:mad:
be mad at man who bring you freedom again? who said thrue about your own histiory?is true hurt you so much?
Originally posted by Boroda
2) Russian (modern russophobic) propaganda screamed about Katyn on every corner, but the story of Imperial and Soviet POWs was never voiced by mass-media, except some marginal newspapers. I know about it only because I have read some special literature.
thats B.S, special literature like Izviestia, Pravda? Every time who som russian folks try to make yourself whiter, bring this case, its not taboo. On every war/military/forum they use same argument.
After historical reaserches we are able to say true about this, you need link to book about this? but thats in polish
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Originally posted by ramzey
Boroda who do you try to cheat?
Katyn was done by same special forces who send people to syberia, who burn hauseholds , fields ahead of walking german army.Tell me thats arent happend and its not russian foult and i start thinking you are blinde for all arguments as any other comunist.
I AM NOT A COMMUNIST!!! ;)
Polish "comminity" in Siberia appeared looong time before Bolsheviks. Remember Pilsudsky's brother who refused to go back to Poland?...
I was surprised when I heard that Chersky and other researchers of Siberia were Polish. to that brave people!
Polish officers in Katyn' were killed from German weapons. There was a city recreation park in Katyn forest in 1940. I don't know who killed Polish POWs in Katyn. I don't say I am 100% sure it was Germans, did I make it clear?
Originally posted by ramzey
If nazis use this for your own propagand and claim thats not them, they have reason for this.
Claiming Kattyn has no place and we not did that is like we not invade Finland ;) Or like claming general plan about bringing communism for whole europe has no place neather ;-)
There was no "general plan about bringing communism for whole europe" in 1939. It's obvious if you studied Soviet history.
I have admitted here that white-Finnish war was an act of agression from Soviet side.
Katyn' case was brought up by Goebbels's Ministry of Propaganda - that's another reason to say it was German fault.
Originally posted by ramzey
Now you try to find every dirt to make us looks worse. Sure we are not saint. And as every country we have dark sides of history too. But compared to russians we are angels.
Great. No nation contains of angels only. You are not angels even compared to Russian "barbarians on their shaggy mounts".
Originally posted by ramzey
Dont use word Polish invasioon in 1920, why? its simple
Poland was occupied by russian killers by 124 years. Your countrymens killed a lot of Poles during this time and send thausends to syberia. You killed 4 Polish uprising, try to get ride of our language.
And you are suprised we like back our land in 1920 , when we can fight again?
Soviet forces took back the land occupied by Poland in 1939. In 1920 you lost some of the land you had before the invasion started, so - it was Soviet victory.
In 1920 your army occupied Kiev. Is Kiev a historical Polish land? Eh? Agressors must be punished.
Originally posted by ramzey
How many countries is still imprisoned in great russian federacy? huh?
What? We have abandined the republics that we had to feed in 1991. Now only gangsters in Chechnya are "unhappy" about Russian rule. I say - "gangsters", ordinary law-abiding people are happy that they are protected by Russian laws against Moslim-fundamentalist gangs and Shariat law.
We are now a mulitcultural, tolerant federation of many nations including Moslim Tatarstan and Bashkiria, Buddist Buryatia and Kalmykia, and so on.
Telling horror tales about opression from Russian Empire is silly. I already told you about my Grandfather. He could speak Polish almost as good as Russian, being born near Voronezh, in metropolitan lands, not far from the border of Don Warriorship Land (Cossack land).
I feel sorry for "occupation". But you have no right to call us names. Sorry again.
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Boroda are you upset that the USSR ened?
Are you upset that former USSR states broke off?
Are you upset that the cold war ended?
Are you upset that communism has been proven to be a complete faiure?
Are you upset that the Berlin Wall fell and that Germany was reuinited?
Are you upset that the old Soviet satelites like Poland are no longer so bound to moscow?
-
Mr Pavel Pavlov I had provide a link to the actual Red Russian order for the excution of the polish Officers in a memo from Beria to Stalin with this link
Truth is always better to argue with than lies…
http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/pg62.gif
"….Memorandum on NKVD letterhead from L. Beria to "Comrade Stalin" proposing to execute captured Polish officers, soldiers, and other prisoners by shooting. Stalin's handwritten signature appears on top, followed by signatures of Politburo members K. Voroshilov, V. Molotov, and A. Mikoyan. Signatures in left margin are M. Kalinin and L. Kagan"ovich, both favoring execution…..."
Take a long look at this document… it’s the smoking gun.
Mark Kmiecik
PS... NO Secrets now, with the world wide web of the third Millennium.
Also, GOD Bless Poland and those that died keeping the dream of Poland alive and bringing its dream to the map of the world and to it's release from the yoke of russian domination.
... from a lost son of Poland and a fredom loving American...
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oh god, is it this time of a year again. What is it, 3rd time we're doing whole 'who killed whose POWs' thing again ?
Let it be folks, it's history.
Oh, btw, whole charging tanks with sabres story is bull****. Made up to make polish army look stupid. Funny how it morphed over the years.
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I just read a very cool story about the Polish submarine service in WW2. Not many people knew they had one. Their most famous sub, the Orzel (Eagle) was a lend lease American boat that was at sea when the Germans over-ran Danzig. It hid in Estonia for a while until the Estonians decided they were on the other team, then they escaped under a hail of gunfire to England.
The boat served in the English Navy under a Polish captain, Jan Grudzinzki. In April 1940 the Orzel sank the German troop ship Rio De Janeiro. It was the 1st successful torpedo attack by any POlish warship.
The Orzel disappeared a month later off the coast of France.. probably sunk by a mine.
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Originally posted by fd ski
oh god, is it this time of a year again. What is it, 3rd time we're doing whole 'who killed whose POWs' thing again ?
Let it be folks, it's history.
The point to remembering history is two fold... one, to remember those that died and those shoulders we stand on, and two... so we shall not forget the lessons which history has taught us and not to make the same mistakes again...
That's the whole point, isn't it????
Mark Kmiecik
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I just read a very cool story about the Polish submarine service in WW2. Not many people knew they had one. Their most famous sub, the Orzel (Eagle) was a lend lease American boat that was at sea when the Germans over-ran Danzig. It hid in Estonia for a while until the Estonians decided they were on the other team, then they escaped under a hail of gunfire to England.
The boat served in the English Navy under a Polish captain, Jan Grudzinzki. In April 1940 the Orzel sank the German troop ship Rio De Janeiro. It was the 1st successful torpedo attack by any POlish warship.
The Orzel disappeared a month later off the coast of France.. probably sunk by a mine.
hmm,
Orzel was not leand lease ship, we order design and construction in Holland . Ship was finished in 1938 as one of the serie.
Orzel was lost during patrol on Nort Sea in may 1940
Also he have "brother " ship, not less famus about his service Dzik
ps. We had one land lease submarine, thisone was sink by escort of one of allies convoys on the surface, due wrong indentyfication by destroyers gunners. It was Jastrzab (Hawk)
ps2. AH fly son of one of sailors from ORP Orzel
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Originally posted by ramzey
hmm,
Orzel was not leand lease ship, we order design and construction in Holland . Ship was finished in 1938 as one of the serie.
Orzel was lost during patrol on Nort Sea in may 1940
Also he have "brother " ship, not less famus about his service Dzik
Oops, you are right. The story I read said there were 3 total Polish subs, 2 from Holland and one lend lease. It never said the Orzel was the lend lease sub. Sorry.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Boroda are you upset that the USSR ened?
Yes I am.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Are you upset that former USSR states broke off?
Some of them. I hate that half of my family are foreigners now. But I don't like nationalists who want to take all the former republics back.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Are you upset that the cold war ended?
No. But it didn't end :(
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Are you upset that communism has been proven to be a complete faiure?
Yes I am upset. We have to blame bolsheviks for this. Communism is a positive, creative ideology, bolshevism isn't.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Are you upset that the Berlin Wall fell and that Germany was reuinited?
I don't care.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Are you upset that the old Soviet satelites like Poland are no longer so bound to moscow?
I don't care. Definetly not upset about it.
-
Originally posted by Chitownflyer
Mr Pavel Pavlov I had provide a link to the actual Red Russian order for the excution of the polish Officers in a memo from Beria to Stalin with this link
Truth is always better to argue with than lies…
http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/pg62.gif
"….Memorandum on NKVD letterhead from L. Beria to "Comrade Stalin" proposing to execute captured Polish officers, soldiers, and other prisoners by shooting. Stalin's handwritten signature appears on top, followed by signatures of Politburo members K. Voroshilov, V. Molotov, and A. Mikoyan. Signatures in left margin are M. Kalinin and L. Kagan"ovich, both favoring execution…..."
Take a long look at this document… it’s the smoking gun.
Mark Kmiecik
PS... NO Secrets now, with the world wide web of the third Millennium.
Also, GOD Bless Poland and those that died keeping the dream of Poland alive and bringing its dream to the map of the world and to it's release from the yoke of russian domination.
... from a lost son of Poland and a fredom loving American...
No secrets. Sure. Every time someone shows me this fake "document".
Read it.
Names of Kalinin and Kaganovich with a remark that they voted "pro" execution.
Stalin, Voroshilov, Molotov and Mikoyan signed across the paper, meaning they voted against this.
CIA is the most reliable source for such documents :D
This fakes and the whole Katyn story were researched in a book called "Katynskiy detektiv" by Yuri Muchin. If you skip all the reasoning about "corrupt Polish government" and all the anti-Polish crap - you'll see the complete proof that it was Germans who killed poor Poles.
But, again, I have to say that I don't know who killed that Polish officers. I don't want to think that it was Soviets.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Dude, Poles are good in my book. They have the balls to fight when other people surrender.
like this one time when france surrendered in record time, and Poland charged German Tanks with cavalry.
Any group of people that does this has my respect forever.
Actually they did not charge tanks with a cavalry. But the Allies sure screwed them over good. Long live the 303 Squadron. You downed more planes than any other RAF squadron nd were a Polish squadron who also got screwed over by the British. You weren't even invited to the Victory Parade in 1946.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Boroda
No secrets. Sure. Every time someone shows me this fake "document".
Read it.
Names of Kalinin and Kaganovich with a remark that they voted "pro" execution.
Stalin, Voroshilov, Molotov and Mikoyan signed across the paper, meaning they voted against this.
CIA is the most reliable source for such documents :D
This fakes and the whole Katyn story were researched in a book called "Katynskiy detektiv" by Yuri Muchin. If you skip all the reasoning about "corrupt Polish government" and all the anti-Polish crap - you'll see the complete proof that it was Germans who killed poor Poles.
But, again, I have to say that I don't know who killed that Polish officers. I don't want to think that it was Soviets.
who?
marsians biciclist together with crazy and deadly hare krishna guys
Whole free world know since 60 years but Boroda not
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Originally posted by ramzey
who?
marsians biciclist together with crazy and deadly hare krishna guys
Whole free world know since 60 years but Boroda not
Better say - for 61 years, since goebbels used it in his propaganda.
Several European specialists who participated in nazi "investigation" later joined Burdenko comission and said that they were forced to sign nazi reports because they threatened their families.
So far Burdenko's report is the last and only reliable source of data about Katyn'.
What I really hate is "opinions" and "facts" that "everyone knows". Most of the things that "everyone knows" are lies. Especially when it's known by the "whole free world".
-
Originally posted by Boroda
No secrets. Sure. Every time someone shows me this fake "document".
Read it.
Names of Kalinin and Kaganovich with a remark that they voted "pro" execution.
Stalin, Voroshilov, Molotov and Mikoyan signed across the paper, meaning they voted against this.
CIA is the most reliable source for such documents :D
This fakes and the whole Katyn story were researched in a book called "Katynskiy detektiv" by Yuri Muchin. If you skip all the reasoning about "corrupt Polish government" and all the anti-Polish crap - you'll see the complete proof that it was Germans who killed poor Poles.
But, again, I have to say that I don't know who killed that Polish officers. I don't want to think that it was Soviets.
Frankly, I think your contention that the Germans killed the Poles at Katyn and your contention that the Russian NKVD had nothing to do with the massacre is quite honestly (which is now widely recognized by most "enlightened" Russian historians that it was indeed the NKVD, acting under Stalin's direct orders which the massacre at Katyn was carried out and covered up by his henchmen) is for want of a better word…BULL-****.
You can say fake, you can say it didn't happen, you can say it was the Germans.. etc… but the massive piles of actual historical documents and testimony by eye witnesses, points to the fact indeed Stalin's NKVD killed those brave men as well as carted off Tens of Thousands of Polish citizens to their deaths in the cold Siberian hell of Stalin's reeducation camps.
Russians needs to recognized and reconcile the fact that Russia does not rule over Poland any more and has absolutely no sovereign claims over it. Further more, Russia's brutal communalist rule and the attempt of the systematic elimination of Polish culture and ideas by past Russian rulers will never be forgotten by the world should never be tolerated again.
Only when Russians become more enlighten and recognized that to move forward they must except the truth of Russia's horrific past, only then they can be free and take a place at the table of civilized nations and take part of the fruits of being a civilized nation.
You attitude, if is reflective of the majority of ordinary Russians thinking, well that day is still wanting.
Mark Kmiecik
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Originally posted by Chitownflyer
Frankly, I think your contention that the Germans killed the Poles at Katyn and your contention that the Russian NKVD had nothing to do with the massacre is quite honestly (which is now widely recognized by most "enlightened" Russian historians that it was indeed the NKVD, acting under Stalin's direct orders which the massacre at Katyn was carried out and covered up by his henchmen) is for want of a better word…BULL-****.
I try to study the facts. Your only argument is your blind faith that Russians are monsters and "barbarians". "Document" you provided is a well-known fake.
Yes, 10000 Poles shot from German weapons and buried in a recreation park where thousands of citizens spent their free time in 1940. It doesn't make you think. Why use your brain when on TV they said it was evil Jewish bolsheviks?..
Originally posted by Chitownflyer
You can say fake, you can say it didn't happen, you can say it was the Germans.. etc… but the massive piles of actual historical documents and testimony by eye witnesses, points to the fact indeed Stalin's NKVD killed those brave men as well as carted off Tens of Thousands of Polish citizens to their deaths in the cold Siberian hell of Stalin's reeducation camps.
Yes. Blame the Russians. Keep on kicking the dead lion who saved you from nazis.
Piles of "historical documents" turn into lame fakes, witnesses don't know Polish language, etc. Just think of how many forces were (and still are) interested in our nations hating each other :(
Originally posted by Chitownflyer
Russians needs to recognized and reconcile the fact that Russia does not rule over Poland any more and has absolutely no sovereign claims over it. Further more, Russia's brutal communalist rule and the attempt of the systematic elimination of Polish culture and ideas by past Russian rulers will never be forgotten by the world should never be tolerated again.
Yes, we refused from all "souverign rule" over Poland after 1918. If we studied one history of one planet - Russia/USSR never claimed any souverignity over Poland since 1918.
Elimination of Polish culture? Poland had much more independance from Russia then any other part of the Empire. Polish cirizens of the Empire worked in science and government, some of the abilities that Empire gave them were impossible for "independant" Poland.
BTW, do you know that Poland was divided between Russia, Germany and Austria? What about Germans? Or last 50 years od cold war made you think that only Russians are "evil barbarians" and Germans came in 1939 to help Polish people fight them? Maybe we didn't have to throw them away from Poland if you hate us so much and love them?...:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Chitownflyer
Only when Russians become more enlighten and recognized that to move forward they must except the truth of Russia's horrific past, only then they can be free and take a place at the table of civilized nations and take part of the fruits of being a civilized nation.
You attitude, if is reflective of the majority of ordinary Russians thinking, well that day is still wanting.
We have heroic and brilliant past. Just as any other nation. As for me - I don't want my country to "take a place at the table of civilized nations". This bloody "civilized" nations killed millions of my compatriots in last 1000 years. My own family fought with this "civilized" bastards for generations. We don't need any "civilization" with swords and "democracy" with cruise missiles. Poland have joined an agressive military alliance aimed against my country, and gives support for agressors. I sincerely hope that our history will finally be peacefull and no conflicts will be provoked by new "friends" of Poland. Peace.
Please remember how many Poles and Russians had to die for some alien foreign interests in last 500-1000 years. Let's live by ourselves, and mind our own lives.
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Originally posted by fd ski
I live in poland, if you have any serious questions, I'll be happy to field them.
As for Poland being a supporter in "war on terror" in Iraq :rolleyes:
I assure you it wasn't a popular decision here, likely next election it will become a large issue. I doubt if withdrawal is likely, as we are too proud in military terms to live with impression of running away :)
Economy is ****, agreed, however, Sandman, if western allies didn't sell on the plate whole eastern europe in 1944 to a known mass murderer, it prabably wouldn't have been so.
Yes, it wasn't realistic to do anything about it at that point, however we still live with the consequences of that decision today. You had 50 years to develop, we had 50 years to keep moving back.
However, it seems that our old enemies, Germans, are now happy to help us dig ourselves out of the hole that we were left in, in 1945. They literaly pushed Poland into EU last year and helped it all along the way.
I'm ashamed at the way we repay them. But that's whole another topic.
good post fd ski, and I hope the ignorant rats that harrass your country now get the loving hamburger in the wrong pipe and choke.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
If you think the recent selling out of Poland is bad, how about you ask your girlfriend's cousin about how the US and British sold out Poland during WW2 to the Soviets... the Soviets raped Poland, executed thousands of her young officers and made the Nazi occupation appear to be by a kindergarden class.
We, as US citizens should forever be ashamed of what this nation did to Poland.
Yep. I'm part Polish. I even had the luxury of meeting fd ski at last years con (He'd remember me as Karaya2). Churchill and Roosevelt LIED for 5 years. I won't even begin to speak about Stalin, he isn't worth it.
Karaya
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As I had said before, I'm what they would call a "Highlander". My Grandparents lived in Tarnow and saw with their own eyes and stood witness, in 1915 what the Imperial Russian army did as they swept across Galicia, (Małopolska) and then got pushed back. My Grandparents had no love for Russia and for good reason. Also I have a working knowledge of Polish history, particularly aware of the fact Poland was partitioned in 1793 with Prussia ( Germany), Russia, and the Imperial Hapsburg Empire each taking a piece and each ruling it's piece with a iron hand with polices of the systematic elimination of Polish culture and language. I'm aware that it was after the first war, with the Russia in civil war between the White Russians, under Kolchak, Denikin, and with Trotsky leading the Bolsheviks. This was chance for 2nd Republic of Poland to be born.
Under the leadership of polish leader Jozef Pilsudski Poland was able to beat back the Bolsheviks and prevent them from subjugating Poland and the rest of Europe under the jack boot of Lenin /Stalin rule of terror in a workers paradise were the rule of law was out of a barrel of a gun and were any disagreement could get you thrown in a train heading to a Gulag in Siberia where your days would be long and painful and life very cold and short.
I can recite more history ad nauseam, but the point is that any honest study of Russian and Polish history will show that Russian influence and rule has not been good for Poland and Poland, IMHO the Polish should fight to the last soul if Russia or that matter Germany or any other country should ever invade it again.
If Russia behaves and doesn't try to expand outside it's current borders, then it should have nothing to fear as any peaceful, enlighten government with rule of law instead, (Considering the Russian mob influences much of Russian current political life its interesting if Russia doesn't full in another dictatorship) then there will be peace. If, IMHO I was the Polish leadership, I would always be watching East and I would never let my Saber get dull and rusty for in the end The Russian soul only understand the point of a Saber.
Mark Kmiecik
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Funny thing is Euro goverments (i stay away from judging people!!
all involved) saying that we are too friendly to USA and we should better watch who we are playing with. Then USA is of course friendly but it's hard to say it's supporting us (as i could say your best friend in Europe, except GB, but don't get me wring here, still talking about goverments not people here).
That's just funny as it's allways a politics game :D It's not sad or anything... just the life.
...hmmm... maybe once we are removed from EU for supporting USA, Bush could add us as another american state? :lol
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I've been to Poland a few times, and the notion that a diploma is worthless to them is complete BS. One of my friends parents worked for the UN, and when they returned, it was difficult to find work because they didn't keep up on their reading.
I think that when Poles study and work in the US they have a much better work ethic than our students do, in general. Probably because they understand the value of higher education, and working for their pay, and not getting it via an allowance from mom and dad.
I personally know of no Poles who prefer communism. You worked, sure, but you gave most of that back to the Union. Not to mention the penalties for seeming to have more than the guy next door.
Less of a country. What a bunch of tools some of you are....
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And even after all in this thread, all the Poland talk in the debate, after all the goodwill wished upon Poland, Poland is pulling outta Iraqi.. It seems the Poles wanna do 'hard work' at home. They cant really be blamed though..
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
And even after all in this thread, all the Poland talk in the debate, after all the goodwill wished upon Poland, Poland is pulling outta Iraqi.. It seems the Poles wanna do 'hard work' at home. They cant really be blamed though..
Not sure about the source of your information, however as i see it in the news here - a minister said something, got spanked by the prime minister who said that, of course we are discussing everything with our allies and everything is possible, but there is no way of speaking about a date of withdrawal and there is no way we are just quit and leave our allies there. that's also something i head our President said, so as i take it,
there is a political game aboutr the iraq (you should know it from your side as well) and some folks are using it agaist other folks who represend another opinion, that's the life, but...
As a person i wish we will keep our guys there as long as they are needed, no metter how much our alies love us or don't care about us. I believe it's a right thing to do.
I also believe that this or any future goverment here won't pull out from iraq because we got no contracts or so... but you shoul drealise that i can speak for myself, but our prime minister so as your president or whoever is doing his job... so the situation is - if he will get something he could use for his politicasl stuff he will support things... just the life
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
And even after all in this thread, all the Poland talk in the debate, after all the goodwill wished upon Poland, Poland is pulling outta Iraqi.. It seems the Poles wanna do 'hard work' at home. They cant really be blamed though..
Pulling out? no kidding , its just politics game before elections
i allmost can bet will live as last
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I didnt mean anything bad about if or when Poland leaves Iraqi. I could understand the decision given the circumstances..
It seems though my initial idea was wrong. I understood the plan for Poland to be out by Dec. 2004 when actually it is 2005... Just a year behind. Nothing new for me! haha