Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Krusty on September 30, 2004, 11:34:20 PM
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...are too damn effective. P47s that can fly steady and level at 80mph with no problem, P38s -- the long SCOFFED AT and INFERIOR P38 that was withdrawn from the ETO because it performed so poorly, can now double loop with only 200mph, can hang on its nose for more time than any other fighter in the game, have flaps too damn effective to be serious.
SUGGESTION
Only make the FIRST NOTCH of combat flaps work as they should, make all subsequent notches less suited for high speeds and/or for anything other than soft landings or heavy takeoffs.
I've been flying the pony the p47d11 and the p38 often lately and they're all outta whack big time. 1 notch is great. Gives you just enough OOMPH to get a better turn (as should be) but I out turned a spitfire in a low slow stall speed with a p51D and full flaps. That's just not right.
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This thread is gonna be great, I can tell :D
(grabs popcorn and sits back..)
ps) Oh, btw, I agree that flap efficiency for US planes are bullshi*. :D
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No they are fine, just lower the eny value of the P38 and P47 to reflect the great maneuver characteristics.
Seriously i have few trouble shooting down p38s, p51s and p47 when flowen by average pilots (in a spitV that is).
The thing that i find silly is if the people wiggle the plane with constant rudder/ailoron/elevator input so it twists mercyless.
I am not sure if that dancing is possible due to the net lag or if they really make it dance that way, but i dont think a real plane can fly that way, would stall out instantly.
To me it looks something about the stall behaviour is not right... possible instant accelerations are insane...
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Originally posted by Krusty
...are too damn effective. P47s that can fly steady and level at 80mph with no problem, P38s -- the long SCOFFED AT and INFERIOR P38 that was withdrawn from the ETO because it performed so poorly, can now double loop with only 200mph, can hang on its nose for more time than any other fighter in the game, have flaps too damn effective to be serious.
SUGGESTION
Only make the FIRST NOTCH of combat flaps work as they should, make all subsequent notches less suited for high speeds and/or for anything other than soft landings or heavy takeoffs.
I've been flying the pony the p47d11 and the p38 often lately and they're all outta whack big time. 1 notch is great. Gives you just enough OOMPH to get a better turn (as should be) but I out turned a spitfire in a low slow stall speed with a p51D and full flaps. That's just not right.
Krusty, the P38 in AH is the 38L that was everything the 38 was supposed to be. The 8th AF gave up the 38 with the last of the 38s moving on in the late summer of 44. But the 9th AF had Groups that continued to fly it with one flying the 38 right til the end. They seemed pleased with it's performance.
In the Med, the 1st, 14th and 82nd FGs all flew the 38 from beginning to end. They too had no complaints about the 38.
Do a bit of research on the 38 and the 8th AF Fighter Command etc before you start painting with too broad a brush. For the most part the complaints were cockpit heating and engine troubles and this was with the earlier model 38s.
Dan/Slack
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1 i think your talking about more early P38s i think the P38L did much better so no it was not that BAD:rolleyes:
2 the P38 has 2 Engs countering props so its stalls are not a instant Snap like 190s
the P38 should be able to Hang because when it gets that slow it stalls down not 1 way like 1 prop planes
so it should be able to Hang on its prop more then anyother fighter
and its flaps add wing area
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Seriously i have few trouble shooting down p38s, p51s and p47 when flowen by average pilots (in a spitV that is).
Try the same with a Bf109G. It hardly turns with the P-47, and gets decisively outturned by the P-51.
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With a high aspect ratio wing, extremely efficient Fowler flaps, and two 1700 horsepower engines with two props to put that power into the air, the P-38 should be able to hang on its props for a long time. Check the power to weight ratio, the wing loading, and then add to it that you have two props, not one, putting that power into the air, while you're at it, consider that the P-38 also has zero net torque. In the hands of a good pilot (better than I), it is and should be lethal if you get low and slow with it and you are not flying a Zeke, or something of that ilk.
If you are going to use historic data to judge the P-38, remember that ONLY the 8th AF had issues with the P-38. Every other group that used the P-38 used it with great success.
For all intents and purposes, the 8th AF (the staff not the men who flew the missions) screwed the pooch on damned near everything they did for most of the war.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Try the same with a Bf109G. It hardly turns with the P-47.
Yep. The P47 is quite surprising, pulls a scissors in front of me like a Zero.
Even though all the cards are against the 47 anyway...seems there might be a problem in the FMs.
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Originally posted by phookat
Yep. The P47 is quite surprising, pulls a scissors in front of me like a Zero.
Even though all the cards are against the 47 anyway...seems there might be a problem in the FMs.
I'm sure alot of spit pilots say the same after I kill 'em in a me110g2.
I good pilot in an avg plane will kill an avg pilot in a good plane.
It's the pilot not the plane.
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Yeah, I know...but I've seen it several times, from different people.
Not that it matters, with a 47. Usually.
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The P-38 has lower power to weight ratio than most single engined fighters in the same time period. It also has a similar or worse wing loading, but its combat flaps make up for some of it.
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I out turned a spitfire in a low slow stall speed with a p51D and full flaps. That's just not right.
You obviously ran into an inexperienced Spit pilot ... simple as that.
If you or anybody has problems with the flight model, you must supply hard evidence that something is wrong. I doubt HTC will do or look at anything when personal conjecture is presented.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I out turned a spitfire in a low slow stall speed with a p51D and full flaps. That's just not right.
You obviously ran into an inexperienced Spit pilot ... simple as that.
If you or anybody has problems with the flight model, you must supply hard evidence that something is wrong. I doubt HTC will do or look at anything when personal conjecture is presented.
Not so. The spit14 pilot was experienced. He flew well. We both just seemed to agree to do a flat turn to get the better of the other, each believing that the other would soon die. Well it stretched on for about 5 minutes, and be broke off when his wrist got tired. I kid you not, we both were turning for 5 minutes, on the deck, in a lag pursuit. We were both feeling really stubborn and just didn't want to give up.
I don't care what you would have done. If you had gone vertical the answer might have been different. But it's a fact that many Spitfire fights degenerated into spits doing flat turns (as found in pilot's recall of a fight in his spit vs a 190F-8 that was posted on the forums a while back).
And this is NOT personal conjecture. It is fact. Many people have experienced it in the game. Don't believe it? Get a friend and host a HTH room to test it out in privacy (read: don't test it in the MA). The reason it's not changed is two-fold : a LOT of people fly US planes, more than any other grouping, I bet, and they enjoy the use of flaps, correct or not, because it gets them kills, and 2) everybody knows that there have been problems with combat flaps since well before AH2 came out. They have been tweaked several times (according to the forums) and still are not right, but I believe HTC to be tired of fixing them and have just let them sit as-is while they work on other things. It is a case of "they work, let's fix things that dont work first" to me.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The P-38 has lower power to weight ratio than most single engined fighters in the same time period. It also has a similar or worse wing loading, but it's combat flaps make up for some of it.
You think so? Wonder why the P-38 accelerates faster than the F4U and the P-51.
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Because the F4U and the P-51 are not "most single engined fighters". For your next trick may I suggest applauding the P-38's power to weight ration by comparing it to the Jug? Or perhaps a B-17?
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Originally posted by Krusty
Not so. The spit14 pilot was experienced. He flew well. We both just seemed to agree to do a flat turn to get the better of the other, each believing that the other would soon die. Well it stretched on for about 5 minutes, and be broke off when his wrist got tired. I kid you not, we both were turning for 5 minutes, on the deck, in a lag pursuit. We were both feeling really stubborn and just didn't want to give up.
I don't care what you would have done. If you had gone vertical the answer might have been different. But it's a fact that many Spitfire fights degenerated into spits doing flat turns (as found in pilot's recall of a fight in his spit vs a 190F-8 that was posted on the forums a while back).
And this is NOT personal conjecture. It is fact. Many people have experienced it in the game. Don't believe it? Get a friend and host a HTH room to test it out in privacy (read: don't test it in the MA). The reason it's not changed is two-fold : a LOT of people fly US planes, more than any other grouping, I bet, and they enjoy the use of flaps, correct or not, because it gets them kills, and 2) everybody knows that there have been problems with combat flaps since well before AH2 came out. They have been tweaked several times (according to the forums) and still are not right, but I believe HTC to be tired of fixing them and have just let them sit as-is while they work on other things. It is a case of "they work, let's fix things that dont work first" to me.
Well now it makes sense ... a Spit XIV !!!
A Spit XIV is not a V nor is it a IX. It cannot turn like the V or the IX. The XIV is a high altitude fighter not a TnB plane. If you get into a XIV and think that you can start to turn like a V or a IX, then you are in serious trouble ... same for the P-51.
What you guys got into was a Luftberry Circle and seeing that the XIV and the 51 are similar in turning, no one got the better of the other until someone dips a wing breaking the circle or just gives up. Had you entered the Luftberry with a V or a IX, you would have been killed in less than 2 circles, without a doubt.
I see nothing wrong or out of place with the scenario that you have described with the 2 planes involved.
I see, so HTC is providing an artifical edge to the US warplanes or they are just too lazy at this point to make it right. This is all personal conjecture/opinion and still does not backup you claim ... show us the facts.
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This thread is gay.
Fly against people who know how to fly a frickin spitfire and you wont out turn anything.
As far as the P38 goes. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Do a bit of research on the flight charateristics of the P38 at low speeds. They could remain at a steady climb at far less than 100mph.
Pilots of the 38 took advantage many times of its maneuverability with the use of flaps on far more than a few occasions.
Im not going to get into a a bunch of factual content here because its just not worth my time.
You will have to be the one to read up on the information you are lacking. Then and only then will it be worth arguing with you when you have something worth arguing about.
You cant just say these planes "turn too damn good" and let that be that. Nor expect anyone to take you seriously.
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He's obviously bloated and blue from hematomas :D
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Originally posted by SlapShot
What you guys got into was a Luftberry Circle ...
The Lufbery Circle (after Raoul Lufbery, a French WWI pilot) is not a flat turning fight like you seem to think. The Lufbery Circle is a defencive formation often used in WWI and early in WWII where a formation of planes would fly in a constant circle where each plane protects the tail of the one in front. The Lufbery Circle was to a large extent invalidated as a practical defencive formation with the advent of fast, heavilly armed monoplanes in WWII that could make slashing attacks on the Circle with little chance of retaliation.
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Well now it makes sense ... a Spit XIV !!!
A Spit XIV is not a V nor is it a IX. It cannot turn like the V or the IX. The XIV is a high altitude fighter not a TnB plane. If you get into a XIV and think that you can start to turn like a V or a IX, then you are in serious trouble ... same for the P-51.
This is the AH2 Spit14 Krusty's talking about here. There aren't many people crazy enough to use it in turn fights, but try going to H2H rooms where it's infested with them.
The AH2 Spit14 is totally different in handling characteristics from the AH1 Spit14. The rolls are fast and wonderful, and the weird massive torque that plagued the plane so harshly in AH1 isn't there anymore. Most of all, its turning circle, speed, and overall rate is superior to that of the AH2 C.202(which, in AH1 was a slow but good maneuvering plane, about equal or slightly to inferior to the Spit9 in AH1).
Ofcourse, that's a result coming from the fact that the Macchi planes are troubled by the same problems concerning 109s, but it also has a lot to do with overall improvements to the Spit14. In AH2 it is slightly inferior to the Spit9 in turning ability - but that should be more than enough to almost totally make a fool out of a P-51D in turn fighting within 2~3 circles.
What you guys got into was a Luftberry Circle and seeing that the XIV and the 51 are similar in turning, no one got the better of the other until someone dips a wing breaking the circle or just gives up. Had you entered the Luftberry with a V or a IX, you would have been killed in less than 2 circles, without a doubt.
Which is wrong. The Spit14 is quoted to have the same turning circle as the Spit5 and Spit9. If the 5 or the 9 can kill a P-51D in "less than 2 circles, without a doubt", then so should it be with the Spit14. With all reservation, if we take for granted the AH representation of Spitfires, which all Spits slightly lose turning abilities as they progress through the models, still the Spit14 should have almost no problems against a P-51D.
I see nothing wrong or out of place with the scenario that you have described with the 2 planes involved.
It's something obvious u missed. I refuse to think you're a biased guy Slap - u have more class than that.
I see, so HTC is providing an artifical edge to the US warplanes or they are just too lazy at this point to make it right. This is all personal conjecture/opinion and still does not backup you claim ... show us the facts.
No. That's a retro attitude Slap. People come here reporting same facts don't all necessarily think mistakes or overlooks are a result of a conspiracy. We're just stating our anecdotes, compared to real life ones.
Like you mentioned, no hard evidence yet - but in most cases, unlike climb rate or speed, depiction of turning circles of WW2 planes rely a lot on anecdotes since there are so many factors involved and not much 'accurate method' in testing exists. Mind you that even real life tests are just pitting two pilots in two different planes and making them circle around.
I'm not an expert or good pilot. But not all of the people I meet in the MA are Jug/Mustang pilots too. I have serious problems in following historic engagement methodology against those planes in a 109G, because it doesn't work in the MA.
Be it experts like Hajo or Stang, or some unknown guy who's pretty average (which I can immediately tell by the way he manages his merges) it's the same.
Even if I get the upperhand in the merge, if he starts popping out flaps and just enters a "max-turn contest", I, in a 109G that I've used for years since AH 1.05, will lose the advantage after some 4~5 turns to the P-47/P-51, piloted by an average guy. I have more hopes in shooting down a La-7 in a turn fight in a P-47D, than a Bf109.
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ADFU Tactical trial of Spitfire Mk XIV vs Mustang Mk III, relevent section bolded:
TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH MUSTANG III
Radius of Action
31. Without a long range tank, the Spitfire XIV has no endurance. With a 90 gallon long-range tank it has about half the range of the Mustang III fitted with 2 x 62 1/2 gallon long range tanks.
Maximum Speed
32. The maximum speed are practically identical.
Maximum Climb
33. The Spitfire XIV is very much better.
Dive
34. As for the Spitfire IX. The Mustang pulls away, but less markedly.
Turning Circle
35. The Spitfire XIV is better.
Rate of Roll
36. The advantage tends to be with the Spitfire XIV.
Conclusion
37. With the exception of endurance no conclusions can be drawn, as these two aircraft should never be enemies. The choice is a matter of taste.
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Very vague statement, at what speed does the Spit out turn the Mustang? At a lower speed maybe, sure as heck not the higher speeds.
Generalization breeds disrespect.
Originally posted by Karnak
Turning Circle
35. The Spitfire XIV is better.
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So does ignoring the original post, which WAS talking about stall speeds, which are, if I'm correct, SLOW speeds, *not* high speed.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Not so. The spit14 pilot was experienced. He flew well. We both just seemed to agree to do a flat turn to get the better of the other, each believing that the other would soon die. Well it stretched on for about 5 minutes, and be broke off when his wrist got tired. I kid you not, we both were turning for 5 minutes, on the deck, in a lag pursuit. We were both feeling really stubborn and just didn't want to give up.
P-38L will do the same thing to a Spitfire Mk XIV, especially in left hand turns. The Spitfire Mk XIV is the worst of the Spitfires in turning, it's torque is a major liability. So I'd have to say the Spitfire Mk XIV pilot wasn't all that experienced, at least not with the Spitfire Mk XIV since it seems that he flew it like a normal Spitfire.
ack-ack
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It's something obvious u missed. I refuse to think you're a biased guy Slap - u have more class than that.
I don't believe that I am biased ... altho I have to admit that I have not flown the XIV in AH II as of yet (don't really plan to either). My experiences in it in AH I was tremendous torque at low/stall speeds was a death sentence if one pulled too hard in such situations.
If what you say is true, then the XIV should have spanked the P-51 in Krusty's scenario, yet he said the XIV was flown by an experienced XIV flyer. The P-51 is a much better plane in AH II than in AH I, but it is still not good enough to fly an indefinate (Luftberry) circle with a Spit V or IX and from what you have said, also the XIV.
GS ... You are correct, but here is another definition in context ...
LUFTBERRY- A circular stagnated fight with no participant having an advantage.
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The spit14 flies very much like the spit9, only it has superior high-alt performance and has a much superior climb rate. It is not debilitated like the AH1 spit14 was. This is, no doubt, why it is perked.
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There is no such thing as a "Luftberry Circle". It's a rather amusing misspelling of the man's name, but otherwise irrelevant. The use of the term "Lufbery Circle" to describe a two-plane turn fight is incorrect.