Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SCDR on October 02, 2004, 02:33:40 AM
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If someone would be so kind as to point me to a web site that
talks about IRL HOs. IMO I think HOing takes no skill. I will only
fire when I see the enmy start to shot, cuz I know I'm gonna
die.
I have read accounts of the LW using the HO on 17s, and I'm
trying to figure out why AH has HOs turned on for.
SCDR
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While not advocating Head on shots, they certainly were used.
An account of a low alt dogfight in a p38 by 1st FG pilot Stub Hatch
Dan/Slack
June 10, 1944
"We were briefed that morning very early. We got up around 0400, had
some breakfast and went down to Group Headquarters for briefing. When
we walked in and sat down it was apparent that something unusual was in
the air because of all the Group brass in attendance. When they went to
the map and drew the line to Ploesti all of us kind of went 'Uh, oh.'
And then when they told us what the mission was, there was absolute
silence and utter disbelief on the part of all of us who were going to
fly over 600 miles to surprise the Germans in order to dive bomb the
Ramano-Americano refinary.
In the course of the breifing it came out that the 82nd (FG) were the
ones to do the bombing. We were selected for fighter escort. I can't
adequately describe the sense of relief that went through the gathering
when we found out that we weren't going to be the ones carrying a 1000
pound bomb on one side of the airplane and a belly tank on the other -
or that we'd be the ones to dry and dive into that unbelievable flak.
Take off at 0505 went as scheduled. We rendezvoused with the 82nd and
headed for the coast of Yugoslavia. Anyone who has flown formation at
low level knows the difficulty in keeping a squadron of 16 aircraft
together, let alone three squadrons. Nonetheless we hit our IP right on
schedule south of Bucharest. At that point we began our turn north,
dropped our belly tanks and were supposed to begin our climb to altitude
to cover the 82nd. As we completed our turn however, we flew right over
an enemy airfield and in the airfield pattern were four or five Dornier
217 bombers. Our Squadron Leader, First Lieutenant John Shepard turned
in and went after them and the three flights followed him (Blue flight
was by this time cut off) The Dorniers didn't last long. I only wasted
some ammo by firing at one of them at the tail end of the little fight.
At this point we were only 250-300 feet off the ground. As we pulled up
slightly to turn back north again somebody hollered, 'Cragmore Break
left for Chrissake!' I looked to my left and there was a whole flock of
FW 190s headed in from 10 O'clock high.
Our entire squadron broke to the left. As I continued around in my
sharp turn a lone 190 came out of nowhere and pulled right across in
front of me. He was so close -fifty to seventy five yards away- that
all I could see in my ring sight was the belly of his fuselage and the
wing roots. I opened fire with all four 50-caliber machine guns and the
20mm cannon and I just damn near blew him in half. That saved my neck
because when I rolled out to shoot at the 190 I looked to my right and
here comes another bunch of 190s from my 2 0'clock.
There were four 190s in the lead. I did the only thing I could do. I
turned sharply to my right, pulled up and fired again. The leader was
150-250 yards away, nearly head on and slightly to my left. I set the
lead 190 on fire with a burst that went through the engine, left side of
the cockpit and the wing root. The 190 rolled to its right and passed
me on my left. I didn't see him crash but my gun camera film showed the
fire and my wingman Lt. Joe Morrison, confirmed that he crashed.
Unfortunately the other three 190s in that flight went right over my
head and down on the tails of Green flight leader and his wingman. Both
were shot down.
As I continued my turn around to my right, my wingman stayed with me and
I saw another 190 right up behind one of my tentmates, Joe Jackson
flying as Cragmore white 4. I closed in on that one from about his five
o'clock and tried to shoot his canopy off from about 100 yards, but I
was too late to save Joe. By then the 190 had set Jackson's plane on
fire. Joe's plane rolled over and went in and he was killed. I finally
did get a burst into the cockpit area and the 190 followed Joe right
into the ground.
I was still turning to the right, going quite slowly by then, because I
had my combat flaps down. I turned maybe another 90 degrees to my right
when I saw on of our 38s coming head on with a 190 on his tail. We were
still only around 300 feet and the P38 passed over me by fifty-seventy
five feet. I pulled up my nose and opened fire on the trailing 190 from
a distance of about 150-200 yards. He kept coming head on and I shot
off the bottom half of his engine. He nosed down still shooting at me
and I had to dump the yoke hard to miss him. He was burning when he
went over me, by not more then three feet and part of his right wing
knocked about three inches off the top of my left rudder.
As the 190 went over my head I saw three more making a pass at me from
my left. I turned so fast I lost Joe Morrison. I missed my shot that
time but when these three went over me they went after Morrison. I saw
three 190s diving on another 38. I snap shot at the leader from about
90 degree deflection. I hit his left wing and shredded the aileron. He
fell off on his wing and went in. He was so low there was no chance for
him to recover. I kept on going around to my left and shot at the
second one with was going away from me on my left. I hit him, but I am
not sure if he went in. I know I knocked a bunch of pieces off his
cowling and fuselage but I didn't have time to see what was happening to
him.
I looked to my 2 o'clock and here comes another 190 right at me. It was
too late for me to turn. I just shut my eyes and hunched down in the
cockpit. I thought I had bought the farm right there. But he missed
me, he never even hit my ship. I think he missed me because I was going
so slowly. He overestimated my speed and was overleading me. I started
to turn his way and when he went behind me I continued on around. There
was another one out there so I closed in on him. I took aim, fired but
my guns only fired about ten rounds and quit. I was out of ammo. I
damaged him a bit but he flew away.
I cannot over emphasize what a melee that was. There were at least
twelve P38s in that little area, all of them at very low altitude.
Somewhere between 25 and 30 190s were also there. None of us were at
more then 200 or 300 feet and some were quite a bit lower. The
topography was kind of a little hollow with hills on each side. It was
by far the wildest melee I saw in sixty odd combat missions I flew. I
heard one guy who had been wounded pretty badly, scream until he went
in. It was a wild, wild few minutes. And a few minutes is all it was.
According to the mission report from our debriefing the whole fight took
something like three to six minutes. I had no inkling of elapsed time
while it was going on. I was too damned busy trying to stay alive.
When I woke up to the fact that I was out of ammunition, 600 miles into
enemy territory and all alone, I broke out of the area and went looking
for some company. In only a few minutes I found one of the other planes
in my squadron headed in my general direction. I called the pilot, Carl
Heonshell, on the radio and we joined up. About that time I heard my
wingman Joe Morrison hollering for some help. He was on single engine,
pretty badly shot up and would someone please come help him. So
Hoenshell and I turned back to look for Joe. We finally found him down
around 200 feet. After we got him headed in our direction we started to
climb out of there to the west.
Joe's airplane looked like a lace doily. The two 190s that I had not
had time to turn into had gone over the top of me and down onto Joe's
tail because he had broken right when I had broken left. Joe's ship was
flying but just barely. Hoenshell and I were both out of ammo. The
three of us tried to make ourselves as small as possible and headed
west. Four or five minutes later another P38 joined with us. It as Lt.
John Allen, a 94th Squadron pilot. We hoped he had some ammunition.
When we called to ask we found his radio was out and we couldn't talk to
him.
Another 25-30 miles west just as we were gaining some altitude we ran
into a bunch of flak. Unfortunately Morrison became separated from us
again because he couldn't maneuver, as quickly to get out of the flak,
so we had to turn around and go back and get him again. We nursed Joe
along for a long, long time. Finally we got out of Rumania and into
Yugoslavia and had climbed to about 12,000 feet. We were S-ing back and
forth over Joe because he couldn't fly as fast as we could on his single
engine. As I was turning from one of our S's I spotted 6 Me109s about 8
0'clock. I hollered to Hoenshell "Bogies high at 8' o'clock!" He saw
them too and cautioned. "Hold it, hold it, Joe hit the deck." Joe
didn't lose any time. He stuck his nose down and headed for the ground.
Car, Allen and I held the turn ad best we could and when the 109s broke
formation and came at us from 6 o'clock we turned into them hoping to
scare them off by looking like we were ready for a fight, but they
didn't scare worth a damn. (This with no ammo) When Hoenshell, who was
leading hollered on the radio, "Hit the deck Hatch!" I didn't waste any
time doing just that. I rolled my airplane over on its back and
split-essed out of there.
One 109 was chasing me with a couple of others going after Hoenshell,
but I don't know where the others went. There was an undercast beneath
us and I didn't have the faintest idea where the mountains
were-Yugoslavia is full of them-but there was no choice at this point.
The Me109 was chasing me and I had nothing left to fight with so I went
through that undercast so fast I didn't even see it. I was hitting
close to 600 mph when I came through into the bottom into a valley
between two high ridges. The Lord sure was with me that day."
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There is no problem with Jousting,,,It is very honorable...
There is skill..IF you cant get ur nose steady enuff to throw a burst and kill the nme before he kills you pretty much means you cant shoot as well
1) you cannot shoot as well as the nme..you die
2) you have no other ACm becuase of lack of E..so you are Forced to Joust
pretty simple..either you dotn have E to avoid..or you cannot shoot as well as the other Jouster...or 1 more..you cannot fly evasive enuff to avoid a Joust..I get kills frequently from ftrs avoiding my joust..very tuff
I joust alot..You knwo why?..becuase I can usally beat the other Jouster...better aim..then I do a Rats *** rollout to avoide his spray ..if any
its tuff..but live it..kill it..make love to it
Love
biGB
xoxox
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wow that was a wild p38 story! where did you get that one guppy? i was unclear of the ending, was it edited, im assuming he lost the 109 and went home, leaving his buddys to die. sheesh he was flying at compression speed to get out of there. wild wild story whew.
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great 38 story..
why is it folks feel inclined to whine about things they don't like? get over yourself.. tactics is tactics and most of the time you can use your "superior" skill and out ACM him since he lacks skill.
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And how would you suggest that he turn HOs off ?
There are those who don't know the difference between an HO and a very high deflection shot.
An HO shot is 0 degrees deflection ... both planes have a guns solution. If one plane CANNOT get a guns solution on the other plane, then an true HO shot is impossible.
Great P-38 story, but I really didn't see anything describing a real HO ...
nearly head on and slightly to my left. I set the
lead 190 on fire with a burst that went through the engine, left side of the cockpit and the wing root.
Not an HO
when I saw on of our 38s coming head on with a 190 on his tail. We were still only around 300 feet and the P38 passed over me by fifty-seventy five feet. I pulled up my nose and opened fire on the trailing 190 from a distance of about 150-200 yards. He kept coming head on and I shot off the bottom half of his engine. He nosed down still shooting at me and I had to dump the yoke hard to miss him.
Not an HO
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well Chuck YEAGER was shot down when He lost HO attack with a 190. Can't remember pilot ace americans had but he had mechanic fix plane so if flew in like a crab so Enemy wouldn't know he was ho. I Posted USNavy manual from ww2 and Ho tactics were in manual.
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
1) you cannot shoot as well as the nme..you die
2) you have no other ACm becuase of lack of E..so you are Forced to Joust
This is actually true, although I still despise you for the HO-ing scum that you are. :D
For example, my gunnery absolutely blows goats, so I usually lose the HO whenever I give in to the temptation. HOing, therefore, does take some skill.
But SCDR, the fact of the matter is that when a person HO's you, you can almost always use that to your advantage. Simply point your nose below the other guy. Roll and rudder a little bit to throw the other's aim off...it generally doesn't take much, as long as you _stay_ below his nose. As he passes you missing, pull up sharply into an immelman. Because of the fact that he spent his E and angle trying to get a shot on you at the last second, you are now above him and on his 6, and have the advantage.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
why is it folks feel inclined to whine about things they don't like? get over yourself.. tactics is tactics and most of the time you can use your "superior" skill and out ACM him since he lacks skill.
LOL! All I did was ask a simple question and this is a reply I get.
SlapShot : I don't know. Think on this tho, it was turned off in AW.
Also collisions are off in AH for friendly but not enmy, so there IS
a way to turn off HOs.
What I've read so far, most of the senior members here advocate
the HO tactic. Why? Is it easier to do, than work for an angles
shot?
BTW the 38 account was great. Yet that is only one instance,
can you point me to some web sites that show where HOing
was a common, valid tactic?
SCDR
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I wouldn't say we advocate it.
It was a valid tatic in WWII and it still is.
Now "good" pilots 9 times out of 10 will duck the first HO pass & out ACM the other guy to get a good kill.
There are several ways to do this. First being do NOT aim YOUR nose at him.
Setup some seperation, give him a constantly changing curve to try to shoot instead of a easy HO shot.
Throw in a lead turn, now he not only doesn't have a shot, he has you on his 6.
Or do a nice big barrel roll when he's 8-900 out, timed so that at the point of biggest danger your upside down "under his nose".
If your good you may even finish it in time for a snap shot as he goes by.
It takes 2 to HO if its a true HO.
And I'm not talking about a forward quarter shot in a turn fight.
I'm talking about boring in from 5k out coalt, straight on, playing chicken HO.
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Another thread about HO's wtg.....
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Dont want Ho's? Here's an idea, Dont go head on vs. your opponent. What? yeah it is that simple.
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Originally posted by eilif
wow that was a wild p38 story! where did you get that one guppy? i was unclear of the ending, was it edited, im assuming he lost the 109 and went home, leaving his buddys to die. sheesh he was flying at compression speed to get out of there. wild wild story whew.
I took it from the 1st Fighter Group History "An Escort of P38s" by John Mullins.
Hatch made it back. Carl Hoenshall who was leading the few of them back, was killed. The crash site for his P38 was discovered a couple years back. Hatch's wingman also made it back as did the guy who was single engine.
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by SlapShot
And how would you suggest that he turn HOs off ?
There are those who don't know the difference between an HO and a very high deflection shot.
An HO shot is 0 degrees deflection ... both planes have a guns solution. If one plane CANNOT get a guns solution on the other plane, then an true HO shot is impossible.
Great P-38 story, but I really didn't see anything describing a real HO ...
nearly head on and slightly to my left. I set the
lead 190 on fire with a burst that went through the engine, left side of the cockpit and the wing root.
Not an HO
when I saw on of our 38s coming head on with a 190 on his tail. We were still only around 300 feet and the P38 passed over me by fifty-seventy five feet. I pulled up my nose and opened fire on the trailing 190 from a distance of about 150-200 yards. He kept coming head on and I shot off the bottom half of his engine. He nosed down still shooting at me and I had to dump the yoke hard to miss him.
Not an HO
The point of posting that one was just to describe a real incident where the noses were pointed in the general direction of each other.
How often in AH is it an actual head on as well? You are in a turning fight and a guy comes diving in. You turn into the attack and he fires as your nose swings in. Is it a HO? He may have been trying for a deflection shot as you swung nose to nose. Not sure it makes him a bad guy.
Yes there are guys who start firing 100 miles a way, going mach 1 as they dive in at you. Generally they miss and are in the next time zone before they turn around too. Can't much worry about them :)
Dan/Slack
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Ho's, tho frowned upon as a poor and potentially suicidal tactic, were used alot in all air combat in history.
Don't get me wrong Ho's suck!! And I got pretty good at them. I stopped hoing because I wasn't making any money. :D I stopped
shooting planes in the face, because I would rather fly it out. Especially after you flying for 5 mins to get to the fight. I still get sucked in tho sometimes.
Most people HO because...
A: That's all they got.
B: Your out numbered and need to even it up.
C: All they are looking for is a quick kill and couldn't care about the fighting.
When I encounter a good 1v1 or 2v1 and the fist thing they try is a Ho i realize I've got em. When they don't ho on the first pass I get worried. lolh.
And the...
Dont want Ho's? Here's an idea, Dont go head on vs. your opponent. What? yeah it is that simple.
...is not that simple. When you are outnumbered and there are 3 or 4 guys diving on you and the fourth guy comes down and Ho's you as your hanging it out dodging his other two buddies, while your watching the last one climb up over the top, there's not a lot you can do. In this situation the guy that ho'ed is the most dispicable Ho'er in the game. Not only did he cheap shot you, but he cheap shot his buddies to!
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if your outnumbered you can expect to get shot down. who cares if its a ho or someone on your 6. Pick your fights a lil better. You are gonna get hoed sometimes but you can avoid most of them. I for one have never been in a HO (with both of us Head-On) that I didnt agree to be in. (didnt manuever from it) Now if you mean that one sec while you are turning you get hoed, well thats aircombat for ya, unpredictable.
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Good points mars.
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LOL first no body has enough bribing bait to ever have anything done about HO's or near HO's
second: if HTC did decide to institute a cone range sort of like that older sim had, you would never hear the whining stop.
but, if people wanted to stay after such a thing was inplace, they just might get back to the ACM side of the game, and then they might even enjoy AH, that much more............
prob be a cold day in hell before it would ever happen.......lol
oh yeah...btw if you look back thru all the threads on HO's you can easily see who is a HO and who is pimping HO's and who go by the straight and narrow!
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I can't speak for WBs as I never flew it, but I imagine there are a lot of us old AW flyers who were 'raised' to believe Headons were about as bad as it gets in terms of dweebishness.
I know for the longest time I couldn't bring myself to fire at what appeared to be the never ending procession of headon shots I was getting thrown at me.
I'll confess to taking some snapshots back since then, but it's still easier to duck out of the way. And as you look over your shoulder you find out soon enough if the guy is going to stay in and fight, or head for the next county and avoid the fight.
At this point it's on me if the headon gets me. I can't dictate how the other guy flies so it's up to me to avoid it and not worry about it.
Dan/Slack
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if your outnumbered you can expect to get shot down. who cares if its a ho or someone on your 6.
LOL Maybe you do.
Yeah honestly I get shot down in those situations alot, and a few times I actually win. That is really a kick. But when you are finally getting position and have been flying your prettythang off, it sucks to get cheap shoted.
Thanks Phoo.
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you won a 4 on 1? lol
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If you are low and slow and cant manuver,
and HO presents itself? Take the shot, turn and you die, Dont take the shot and you are a fool.
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Originally posted by blutic
If you are low and slow and cant manuver,
and HO presents itself? Take the shot, turn and you die, Dont take the shot and you are a fool.
True, but the issue is the guy thats higher, at speeed that dives HO's, misses , dives & extend, turn, HO attempts again , misses dive run repeat. Just straight line flying, no ACM at all.
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you won a 4 on 1? lol
Only twice, it is a rare occasion.
If you are low and slow and cant manuver,
and HO presents itself? Take the shot, turn and you die, Dont take the shot and you are a fool.
Yeah, it depends on my mood. Sometimes I wont take the ho because it is cheap, especially if it has been a good fight! The other guy flew better and earned it. So no your not always a fool for not taking the last resort cheap shot, sometimes your a better sport for not taking it.
If on the other hand the guy reverses and flies right in front of me, I'm taking the shot. Big differecne tho.
True, but the issue is the guy thats higher, at speeed that dives HO's, misses , dives & extend, turn, HO attempts again , misses dive run repeat. Just straight line flying, no ACM at all.
Exactly!
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Yeah, it depends on my mood. Sometimes I wont take the ho because it is cheap, especially if it has been a good fight! The other guy flew better and earned it. So no your not always a fool for not taking the last resort cheap shot, sometimes your a better sport for not taking it.
In the past you may have been right, if you dont take the shot now, rest assured the other person will.
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Originally posted by eilif
wow that was a wild p38 story! where did you get that one guppy? i was unclear of the ending, was it edited, im assuming he lost the 109 and went home, leaving his buddys to die. sheesh he was flying at compression speed to get out of there. wild wild story whew.
Try Aces against Germany by Eric Hammel, excellent read.
He also has several other aces books out, all first hand
accounts from the pilots themselves.
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But we all know that first-hand accounts are NOT historical fact, and that hindsight, the excitement of the moment, faulty memories, or even just plain ignorance, can make people claim something as fact that is not ("shooting the ground in front of panzers will kill them" and, in this case what makes me suspicious is "reached 600mph")
Take EVERYTHING, even PILOT TESTIMONY, as suspect until proven. Pilots were young, rushed through flight school, and many not as educated as some of the people browsing this simple forum. They did brave things, yes. Were they Einsteins? No!
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Originally posted by Raider179
you won a 4 on 1? lol
i won a 6-1
1 time
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I'ld like to thank the people that took the time to reply
constructively. The people that THINK this was a "whine",
well BITE ME!:D
I got the info I expected and the semi-slams I knew were coming.
SCDR
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Many excellent points.
I get a kick out of the "I only HO sometimes" or "I only HO when I feel like it" replies. Them funny.
The guys that face shoot are usually at the "bottom" ish of the learning curve. It's where they are at. When you type on Chn200 "nice ho dweeb" your not doing anything to help 'em. You MIGHT consider, if you say anything at all, offering to take them into the TA and showing them "HOW" to merge. Then they can move "up" the curve, and next time you meet 'em they will give you a better fight.
Guys that face shoot are easy kills. Period. If you have a problem killing them, then maybe grab a trainer so you can learn how to "USE" their lack of skill against 'em. Ghost has said it best so far. Jink your plane so they don't have an easy shot, and start a lead turn. I tend to do a combined yoyo/barrel roll thing, depending on the situation (i.e. co-E, they got E. etc.) You are already reversing as they are still blazing away, and by the time they re-aquire you, you SHOULD be on their 6 and well on the way to saddeling 'em up and making them go boom.
There ARE times when you are being jumped by multiple con's, are low on E, and you face shoot one just to even the odds. That's perf. acceptable. Alls fair in love and war. BUT if that is your primary move, you have alot of learning to do. Then only time I consider a HO is when a perk ride is near. I will HO a 262 all day long.
It's the guys that come diving in with tons of E, face shoot, zoom back up, rinse and repeat that get old. BUT all that really means is you have to fly smart, constantly hold/conserve your E, and try to level out the planes relative E states. Then you simply kill 'em by using their "lack" of tactics against 'em. Many "top ranked" pilots fall into this catagory (the dweeby face shooting, one trick, no real skill catagory that is...) Many of the top 10 ranked pilots do that move almost to exclusion. If they HAVE to fight, as in use ACM, they die. I get the biggest chuckles out of killing them 'cause they should at least KNOW better. Don't get me wrong, if i'm tooling around and I have alt, I wil b/z 'em, but that is usually to blow their E, or set 'em up for the kill. Expect me to mix it up.
Most of the people you see "whining" on ch200 re. ho's need to consider the following. Did they die because they face shot and lost, or because of something stupid they did. Either way it's THEIR own fault, and if they are mad at anyone, it should be themself. That also applies to all the "uber" sticks that get low, slow, with no E, surrounded by enemy, and then Whine like babies when they die. Sure it was a 12 on 1, but they put theirself in that position in the 1st place. Don't wanna die being ganged? Don't blow all your E and get surrounded.
Hmmm..... trying to think of anything else I wanna complain about........ drawing blanks. I will get back to ya's.
Oh and btw, if anybody wants any help, feel free to grab me and we can go to the TA, or DA and I will happily show you how to not only avoid the HO, but how to use it to kill 'em.
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Originally posted by Krusty
But we all know that first-hand accounts are NOT historical fact, and that hindsight, the excitement of the moment, faulty memories, or even just plain ignorance, can make people claim something as fact that is not ("shooting the ground in front of panzers will kill them" and, in this case what makes me suspicious is "reached 600mph")
Take EVERYTHING, even PILOT TESTIMONY, as suspect until proven. Pilots were young, rushed through flight school, and many not as educated as some of the people browsing this simple forum. They did brave things, yes. Were they Einsteins? No!
Seems like an awful lot of typing and bandwidth wasted to say, more or less, that if an eyewitness or actual participant claims something you disagree with then you'll go on and believe what you want .... because .... well .... they can't prove it, so there. ;) :aok
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Originally posted by SCDR
If someone would be so kind as to point me to a web site that
talks about IRL HOs. IMO I think HOing takes no skill. I will only
fire when I see the enmy start to shot, cuz I know I'm gonna
die.
I have read accounts of the LW using the HO on 17s, and I'm
trying to figure out why AH has HOs turned on for.
SCDR
do a search in Help and Training for Headon - there are some very long threads on this subject.
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Simply put:
1: Collision model - good thing.
2: Head-on attack, an option - good thing.
3: Inability to figure out how to deal with them - bad thing - but not the game's fault.
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Originally posted by Krusty
But we all know that first-hand accounts are NOT historical fact, and that hindsight, the excitement of the moment, faulty memories, or even just plain ignorance, can make people claim something as fact that is not ("shooting the ground in front of panzers will kill them" and, in this case what makes me suspicious is "reached 600mph")
Take EVERYTHING, even PILOT TESTIMONY, as suspect until proven. Pilots were young, rushed through flight school, and many not as educated as some of the people browsing this simple forum. They did brave things, yes. Were they Einsteins? No!
Well then, what exactly IS historical fact? I always thought it
was someone's recollections written down afterwards. Of
course maybe you have a time machine or something so that we
can ignore your impressions of the event in question.
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Originally posted by SCDR
I have read accounts of the LW using the HO on 17s,
Sorry if anyone has already answered this particular but I didn't read everyone's posts.
I believe that early in the war the LW attacked b17's from the front because they were less protected in the front. I'm probably wrong but didn't earlier b17's not have a nose gun, it was simply the bombadiers position?
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They did but it wasn't a "face" shot. Come in above the 17 that's your target and angle you attack so you start at the nose at convergence and rake the upper fuse on your pass through.
Not easy to set up, but devistating if done correctly.
Egon Mayer's original concept from Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' that worked very well.
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Originally posted by nopoop
They did but it wasn't a "face" shot. Come in above the 17 that's your target and angle you attack so you start at the nose at convergence and rake the upper fuse on your pass through.
Not easy to set up, but devistating if done correctly.
Egon Mayer's original concept from Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' that worked very well.
And in fact it was the RAF in the Battle of Britain that got the head on to the bombers bit started. One guy barreling through head on tended to break up the formation integrity.
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Krusty
But we all know that first-hand accounts are NOT historical fact, and that hindsight, the excitement of the moment, faulty memories, or even just plain ignorance, can make people claim something as fact that is not ("shooting the ground in front of panzers will kill them" and, in this case what makes me suspicious is "reached 600mph")
Take EVERYTHING, even PILOT TESTIMONY, as suspect until proven. Pilots were young, rushed through flight school, and many not as educated as some of the people browsing this simple forum. They did brave things, yes. Were they Einsteins? No!
Kinda kranky and kontrary lately Krusty? :)
What would a historical fact be? Is a combat report taken and transcribed right after a flight comtain historical fact? What about a logbook?
Why even have discussions then? No point in reading pilot accounts cause it might not be the 100 percent absolute truth? The comment made by ground soldiers is that the battle one guy sees is completely different from the one seen by a guy in a foxhole 10 yards away. It doesn't mean the account lacks value.
And I'd beg to differ on the quality of those pilots. These weren't just shoved through flight school guys lacking intellect. They clearly had to have something going for them to do the job they did and the expectations even in wartime were still high.
And just how would you PROVE something all these years later?
Dan/Slack
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Let's not forget that the target you're facing has something to do with HOs too.
There are some planes, such as the 190-a8, that meet two conditions condusive to HOs: 1) they have super-strong cannon, and 2) they are so unmanouverable that they have no hope of getting another shot off if ACM starts happening.
In addition to the A8, I have come to consider the following planes to be more likey to try an HO than others (and these are just off the top of my head):
BF-110
Mossie
P47 (when slow and low)
Hurri IIC
N1K1
I don't hold it against the first three planes in this list when their pilots HO, but those last two planes usually have some other choices. I mean, what else are they supposed to do, just sit there and let me shoot them after the first reversal?
-Llama
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Originally posted by llama
Let's not forget that the target you're facing has something to do with HOs too.
There are some planes, such as the 190-a8, that meet two conditions condusive to HOs: 1) they have super-strong cannon, and 2) they are so unmanouverable that they have no hope of getting another shot off if ACM starts happening.
In addition to the A8, I have come to consider the following planes to be more likey to try an HO than others (and these are just off the top of my head):
BF-110
Mossie
P47 (when slow and low)
Hurri IIC
N1K1
I don't hold it against the first three planes in this list when their pilots HO, but those last two planes usually have some other choices. I mean, what else are they supposed to do, just sit there and let me shoot them after the first reversal?
-Llama
I would argue that just because you have chosen to fly those planes doesn't give you the right to fly around jousting all and sundry, and then use the plane as an excuse. Not everyone agrees of course :)
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Guppy,
Thats the most horrifying story i've read - ever. to those guys.
Wolfala
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SCDR,
You pay only 14.95 to get a HO, I have to pay 60 bucks to get that in Texas.......
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Originally posted by acetnt367th
SCDR,
You pay only 14.95 to get a HO, I have to pay 60 bucks to get that in Texas.......
You need to hang around high schools more chief. They come for free there.
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Originally posted by Drunky
Sorry if anyone has already answered this particular but I didn't read everyone's posts.
I believe that early in the war the LW attacked b17's from the front because they were less protected in the front. I'm probably wrong but didn't earlier b17's not have a nose gun, it was simply the bombadiers position?
IIRC, they didn't get the chin turret until the G model. Also, a couple of cannon shells into the cockpit would kill the plane just as surely as spending time taking out engines or shooting off multiple parts.
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Originally posted by debuman
IIRC, they didn't get the chin turret until the G model. Also, a couple of cannon shells into the cockpit would kill the plane just as surely as spending time taking out engines or shooting off multiple parts.
Works the same way in game. Heh ... and some think there's not any realism ....
:D
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Originally posted by debuman
IIRC, they didn't get the chin turret until the G model. Also, a couple of cannon shells into the cockpit would kill the plane just as surely as spending time taking out engines or shooting off multiple parts.
Chin turret first showed up with the YB40 gunship. It also was installed on some very late F models.
The early E and F models only had single 30 calibar MGs in the nose glazing. But very quickly there were larger side windows installed in the nose and bracing for 50 cals in the nose cone. The standard set up was a single 50 in a mount in the nose glass and single 50s on each side of the nose.
Some were modified with twin 50s in the nose as well. Memphis Belle has two 50s in the nose plus two on the side. So 4 50s in the nose was possible before the G which inintially went back to just the two 50s in the turret, but just as fast added back the larger side windows and guns there too.
Dan/Slack
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Yep, the HO. Never ever used in RL.
I met this gentleman at his Flight School Class's (43-C) reunion, held at our CAF hangar. These guys all started in PT-19's and we got 3 -19's together to give them all rides.
Dick Hewitt engaged two FW-190's (on separate missons) with true HO tactics. His comment to me was "we couldn't let them get to the bombers".
Read his book: " Target of Opportunity - Tales and Contrails of the Second World War"
"Richard A. Hewitt, a second year college engineering student in New York State, like so many Americans after the December 7, 1941 Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, chose to volunteer for service to his country. He joined the Army Air Corps in February, 1942. As a member of the Army Aviation Cadet Class, 43-C, Dick was commissioned as a second Lieutenant and received his wings on March 23, 1943.
After further training, he was assigned in the ETO to the 78th Fighter Group, 82nd Fighter Squadron, stationed at Duxford, Cambridgeshire, England, in September, 1943. Dick flew a total of 144 combat missions, combining a total of 400 hours of combat in the P-47 Thunderbolt and P-51 Mustang fighter aircraft.
During his combat tours with the 82nd, spanning over two years, he was credited with 8.3 victories, including 4 in the air; promoted to the rank of Major; awarded the Air Medal with 17 oak leaf clusters, awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with 4 oak leaf clusters, and the Silver Star. He commanded the 82nd Fighter Squadron from March, 1945 through June, 1945."
HO's were used. Get over it.
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Just out of curiosity. If your in a turn fight, and you keep passing nose to nose, neither pilot can get to the others six, how many passes untill you start shooting? I'll normally wiat till the third pass or untill the other guy starts shooting.
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Originally posted by phookat
This is actually true, although I still despise you for the HO-ing scum that you are. :D
For example, my gunnery absolutely blows goats, so I usually lose the HO whenever I give in to the temptation. HOing, therefore, does take some skill.
But SCDR, the fact of the matter is that when a person HO's you, you can almost always use that to your advantage. Simply point your nose below the other guy. Roll and rudder a little bit to throw the other's aim off...it generally doesn't take much, as long as you _stay_ below his nose. As he passes you missing, pull up sharply into an immelman. Because of the fact that he spent his E and angle trying to get a shot on you at the last second, you are now above him and on his 6, and have the advantage.
Nop, if you do that against any fast plane and if he does not pull up sharply like you did, you will and up slow and below him by atlist 2K. Sure way to die. If he is pointing the nose down to get the shot on you, he is gaining E, not losing.
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Originally posted by SCDR
If someone would be so kind as to point me to a web site that
talks about IRL HOs. IMO I think HOing takes no skill. I will only
fire when I see the enmy start to shot, cuz I know I'm gonna
die.
I have read accounts of the LW using the HO on 17s, and I'm
trying to figure out why AH has HOs turned on for.
SCDR
Not sure what you mean by HO's being "turned on" in AH. In general, I would say you're taking the wrong approach. When you say, "I will only fire when I see the enmy start to shot, cuz I know I'm gonna die," that to me sounds like you always make the same approach to the merge - barreling straight into the guy hoping that he doesn't take the shot. Once he fires, you decide to return fire, but by that time, you're at a big disadvantage. You need to decide before then whether you'll be taking that shot or not. That should be a tactical decision, not an ethical one. You need to make a split second risk assessment and choose the tactic that best fits the situation. If you always go for the HO or never go for the HO, you're using a sub-optimal strategy.
Generally, in a 1v1 you want the other guy to commit to the HO shot. If he's going to push, you want to pull unless maybe he's a boxer wanting to trade blows with a puncher. The idea is to bait him into a low % HO shot in order to gain angles and position on him. Let him overcommit and set him up for the counter. Going low on the merge is a great way to accomplish this because because he has to really bury his nose to get enough lead for a shot. You pull a lead immelman there and if he also pulls an immelman after the shot, you'll already be in his hind quarter following the initial merge.
IRL I would say that HO's are more effective than in the game even though they probably result in a higher % of shootdowns in the game.
As to anecdotes about head-ons, just grab a book of WWII air combat anecdotes. You won't have to look too hard. An amusing anecdote regarding the tactic can be found in James Howard's "Roar of the Tiger".
"The Fourth had been flying P-47 Thunderbolts since that spring, so Blakeslee came to us as a veteran who could speak with authority based on experience. Don proved very durable. By the end of the war, he had accumulated a thousand hours of combat flying, more than any other American fighter pilot.
"In Blakeslee's briefing that afternoon, he explained we had three tactics to use against the enemy: (1) shoot down the enemy plane (or be shot down), (2) make the enemy fighter break off an attack first, (3) if the enemy fighter fails to break off, continue on a collision course.
"We were stunned. Did he mean we should deliberately ram the enemy head-on?
"Blakeslee hesitated for emphasis and then said, "We never turn away from a head-on attack. If we do, the word will get back to Luftwaffe pilots that the Americans break first in a head-on pass. They will then have a psychological advantage of knowing beforehand what we will do."
"A young pilot in the front row asked what would happen if the German pilot followed the same orders. Blakeslee looked down at the young man with a contemptuous smile and said, "In that case you've earned your flight pay the hard way!"
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"Not sure what you mean by HO's being "turned on" in AH."
A left over notion from Air Warrior where HO's were disabled ("turned off").
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Originally posted by dedalos
Nop, if you do that against any fast plane and if he does not pull up sharply like you did, you will and up slow and below him by atlist 2K.
If you pull up and he doesn't, how does he end up 2k above you?
If he is pointing the nose down to get the shot on you, he is gaining E, not losing. [/B]
There's a big difference between gaining speed and gaining energy. You can gain speed while losing energy and that's normally the case. After making his dive, if he can't zoom back up to his initial altitude and still have his initial speed, then he lost energy that's not even including the work his engine was doing during that time.
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Originally posted by Westy
"Not sure what you mean by HO's being "turned on" in AH."
A left over notion from Air Warrior where HO's were disabled ("turned off").
And that is part of the problem I think. People used to AW were taught poor ACM in that the direct HO was always a safe approach due to the forward shields. When they moved to AH or WB they were used to an artificial restraint that wasn't there and the players of those games ruthlessly took advantage of the difference.
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I agree Karnak. Combine the lack of HO's with no collisions and "ACM" took on a whole different, very unrealistic meaning.
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Originally posted by Karnak
And that is part of the problem I think. People used to AW were taught poor ACM in that the direct HO was always a safe approach due to the forward shields. When they moved to AH or WB they were used to an artificial restraint that wasn't there and the players of those games ruthlessly took advantage of the difference.
who taught who poor ACM, no one ever taught "that the direct HO was always a safe approach due to the forward shields."
AW had HO's it was just a low percentage of them because of the randomizer that was incorporated. from where I stand , AW flyers was not taught the elusive approach in which you have described. most AW flyers that attended the training in AW, were taught vertical lead turn merges, horizontal lead turn merges, etc........
if you flew AW, and you was taught this, it was not from a Trainer!
maybe some RR flyer that didn't know any better
it is a 50/50 deal you either do it or you don't! always has been always will be!
only thing is a number of AH flyers choose to fly that way with out ever learning anything else....to me this is sad :-(
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Originally posted by dedalos
Nop, if you do that against any fast plane and if he does not pull up sharply like you did, you will and up slow and below him by atlist 2K. Sure way to die. If he is pointing the nose down to get the shot on you, he is gaining E, not losing.
What Pyro said, basically.
If he doesn't pull up, you will be behind and above him. He may still be able to run away, of course. But if he blows by you so quick, he had a very brief shot during the HO in the first place. If he has so much starting E that he is able to both blow E on the HO and still do a more gradual zoom climb and pull away from you, then naturally he had a big starting alt advantage and it requires more than one move to remove that advantage. In that case what I find works well as a second move is a vert scissors--he is going fast as he closes on your 6 and he can't follow the pull-up. Then you roll and dive and top of him, and make him blow even more E to get out of your 12.
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About 10 years ago in Korea, $65 was all night with dinner before hand!
Any other questions?
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man, inflation strikes world wide, huh! hehe
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Originally posted by Pyro
If you pull up and he doesn't, how does he end up 2k above you?
There's a big difference between gaining speed and gaining energy. You can gain speed while losing energy and that's normally the case. After making his dive, if he can't zoom back up to his initial altitude and still have his initial speed, then he lost energy that's not even including the work his engine was doing during that time.
First of all, you are right. If he over commits himself or if he cannot zoom back up, he is in troble. I am talking about the situation where he does not make these mistakes. For example, this is something I do all the time against anything that turns good, usually a spitV. After the merge, the spit - again not always - will pull up as sharp as it can and either loop or emelman. I the process, he is draining e fast because he is pulling on the stick so hard. On my end then, I pull back on the stick gently and turn a little to the left. The result is, I will clime a lot higher if not because of my speed, then just because I did not 'turn on a dime?', I think you know what I am talking about. Now the spit is left about 1k to 2k - in my experience - below me with my plane ready to roll for a canopy shot.
The assumption that if you push your plane under someones nose will give you an advantage, I think is wrong. It really depends on what plane the other guy is in and what he does after the the planes pass eachother. Just beacuse you pusshed your nose down a little, does not mean the other guy is going to make a mistake. As far as e goes, how does one get an advantage over the other? You are both doing the same thing. Pushing your nose down. (Again assume no mistakes on the bad guy)
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TequilaChaser,
I don't mean formal training. I mean habits the game itself gave people.
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HOs were used historically and I have no problem with them used in AH, provided it isn't a 1v1 or a many vs 1 enemy. I tend to only perform when when outnumbered and I know I have a good shot, its not my only tactic, but a last resort.
The lowest form of life in AH (imho) is the guy that dives in, screws up his high speed pass, attempts to HO, and runs.
You can almost see what the guy is thinking...
"I didn't kill him at the merge! What do I do now?!? I have no idea what I'm supposed to do so I gotta run!"
Laughable... and more sadly its becoming a recurrent theme in AH as too many guys are afraid of dying in a virtual world.
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Originally posted by dedalos
The assumption that if you push your plane under someones nose will give you an advantage, I think is wrong. It really depends on what plane the other guy is in and what he does after the the planes pass eachother. Just beacuse you pusshed your nose down a little, does not mean the other guy is going to make a mistake. As far as e goes, how does one get an advantage over the other?
The reason you get the advantage is because he is HOing you. The HO is the mistake. That is what we're talking about here, after all. E is balanced against angles. If you nose under, he has to pull G's to get the "HO" on you, and he has to fly through you while you are already in the middle of the reversing turn. He loses some E on the G's, and he loses angles on the merge.
Every situation is different, obviously, but nose-under is a good rule of thumb. How sharply you reverse depends completely on the situation.
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Originally posted by phookat
The reason you get the advantage is because he is HOing you. The HO is the mistake. That is what we're talking about here, after all. E is balanced against angles. If you nose under, he has to pull G's to get the "HO" on you, and he has to fly through you while you are already in the middle of the reversing turn. He loses some E on the G's, and he loses angles on the merge.
Every situation is different, obviously, but nose-under is a good rule of thumb. How sharply you reverse depends completely on the situation.
Don't get me wrong, I am just trying to understand/learn. How do you know that just because one chose to go HO and you pushed your nose down (u sould lose some e too by doing that) he is pussing his nose down hard. How do you know that he is not going to pull up? When I see people pointing down, I go up. What if he is not firing or if it is not exactly a HO at the merge.
I think the theory is true when the HOer just has that in mind but what if he fired a short burst at 1k out just to give you the impresion he is going head on? What if he thinks u r the HOer? What if you are in a Spit and he is in a D9? It just does not seem right that all you got to do is push your nose down a little and the bad guy will find a way to die.
Than again, we can always try it in dif planes and see what really happens. TA? I am on after 9 central time.
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Dedalos, the difference between what you describe and what I'm talking about is that you're not going for a head-on shot, you're looking to set up your shot through energy tactics. Once I start drifting away to create some separation, if the other plane doesn't try to keep his sights on me, then I know it won't be a HO merge and the whole fight plays out differently.
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Originally posted by Pyro
Dedalos, the difference between what you describe and what I'm talking about is that you're not going for a head-on shot, you're looking to set up your shot through energy tactics. Once I start drifting away to create some separation, if the other plane doesn't try to keep his sights on me, then I know it won't be a HO merge and the whole fight plays out differently.
Yep, I agree with you. I also know that you know what you are talking about. But you are good, you know what to do. For most people, the so called HO situation takes 1 to 2 seconds to build up. Not mach time to think.
I just don;t want them to get the impresion that a HO is easyly avoidable by just pointing your nose down a little. I used to do it and 80% of the time I ended up losing an elevator or aleron or something. Now, I go left and up. In any case and thanks for talking with me about it.
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Now, I go left and up.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Don't get me wrong, I am just trying to understand/learn. How do you know that just because one chose to go HO and you pushed your nose down (u sould lose some e too by doing that) he is pussing his nose down hard. How do you know that he is not going to pull up? When I see people pointing down, I go up. What if he is not firing or if it is not exactly a HO at the merge.
Well Pyro beat me to it again, but basically if the other guy doesn't HO then the fight is different. For starters you can be sure the other guy is better than average at least. BTW, don't mistake me for an expert just cause I like to shoot my mouth off. :D
If the other guy is a HOer, then he has to pull more G's as he gets closer to you, because your relative deflection gets worse and worse. Since you are below him, he is pulling G's in the "wrong" direction, i.e. down. In contrast, your nose down is gentle and efficient. You are not tracking a shot.
If he's not a HOer, nose-low is still a good rule of thumb. What do I do when the other guy pulls up instead of HOing. It depends on the relative E states. If I think I have enough E, I pull up and follow, gaining the angle. If he has too much E, I keep my speed up, and when he tries a pass I try a scissors.
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After reading this story, I went to the American Fighter Aces album and looked up Herbert B. "Stub" Hatch, Jr.'s bio. Here's what's written.
"That day the 71st was to fly top-cover for 82nd FG P-38s which were to dive-bomb the Ploesti Oil Fields-an ill conceived assignment for both groups. The 71st never reached the target as it was jumped by a superior force of Industria Aeronautica Romana (I.A.R.)80s(a Romanian-built fighter that wa very similar to the FW-190)while flying on the deck. With little room to manouver, the two P-38 groups lost 24 aircraft, whith the 71st losing one-third of the total."
So it seems that there is a little contraversy as to what type of planes they encountered. We carry "An Escort of P-38s" in our store, so I'll check it out.
We also had the 1st FG's reunion here at the museum last month with three aces in attendence. Tom Maloney, Joel Owens and Darrell Welch(who wore his original A-2 flight jacket with Italian made 1st FG patches on it). It was a really good event and they talked about this engagement during their symposium.
:aok :aok
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Now, I go left and up.
Wait a minute, I think it was down and right. Hmmm, or was it up? No no, it was hard left then hard right then . . .
There, now I confused you
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Originally posted by dedalos
Don't get me wrong, I am just trying to understand/learn. How do you know that just because one chose to go HO and you pushed your nose down (u sould lose some e too by doing that) he is pussing his nose down hard. How do you know that he is not going to pull up? When I see people pointing down, I go up. What if he is not firing or if it is not exactly a HO at the merge.
I think the theory is true when the HOer just has that in mind but what if he fired a short burst at 1k out just to give you the impresion he is going head on? What if he thinks u r the HOer? What if you are in a Spit and he is in a D9? It just does not seem right that all you got to do is push your nose down a little and the bad guy will find a way to die.
Than again, we can always try it in dif planes and see what really happens. TA? I am on after 9 central time.
The safest thing to assume in the arena now is that the incoming plane will try to HO you and treat every merge as a potential HO from the other guy. Get your HO avoidance down pat and you won't have any problems - both avoiding the HO and winning the angles.
In every merge you should probably try to get under their nose , both for HO avoidance , and to gain positon. It works.
The ones to worry about are the ones that don't HO - treat that merge as a potential fight on your hands.