Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MRPLUTO on October 04, 2004, 04:50:50 PM
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"The Frank (Ki-84)...would outclimb any Allied fighter (including the P-51D), and would out-turn all of them (including the Spitfire)."
--Edward Sims, Fighter Tactics & Strategy, 1914-1970
But wait, there's more....Twin 20mm cannon! This plane will be awesome -- more effective in the MA than the P-51D and very possibly the La-7, both of which many people think should be perked. [Kweassa's perk plan seems to have gotten the most support. Check it out.] If so, should the Ki-84 be perked, too? But that would be politically impossible, I mean perk the new fighter plane we've all been waiting for? No way will that happen. So prepare for a Ki-84 scourage, the way the Fokker E. III dominated the Western Front during 1915. Well, not quite that bad, but you get the idea; it will be a very popular and superior plane.
Nevertheless, I predict that after a few months we'll see the "Hayate" [pron. hah'-yah-tay], aka "Frank" get perked, I hope along with the P-51D, La-7, Fw-190D-9, Bf-109G-10, Yak-9U, and maybe the Typhoon. By perking them all at the same time, we'll get the whining over with in one dose, and avoid charges that "you're just picking on my favorite plane!"
MRPLUTO
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Unperk em all. Who the heck cares. Give me a Spit V, P38, Jug, 109E or a P40 and life is good :)
Dan/Slack
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Frank's Top-Speed:388 or 427mph...):Case Closed? (http://www.j-aircraft.org/bbs/army_config.pl?read=9753)
The odds are the AH Ki-84 will do 388mph or there about and as such be in direct competition with the Niki, La7 and Spit for usage. With a 388mph top speed there would be no reason for it to be perked.
If modeled with a top speed around 410+ then the whiners will scream bloody murder,
"Jap fuel was made of sea shells and pine nuts. No way in hell could it do over 400mph"
At 410+ then it would definitely qualify as a perk plane.
I guess we will just have to wait and see.
The perk system has been stagnant for sometime. I guess this is because there haven’t been any new planes in a while. I had always thought that as more planes get added the perk system would expand. I don't think Kweassa's perk suggestion is any better then the current system.
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guppy--
I also like flying planes that offer more of a challenge. Two favorites: the P-47D-11 and Ki-67. But...not everyone feels the way we do. Imagine if the F4U-4, Spit XIV, or Me-262 weren't perked? We'd see them constantly. Those of us who persisted in flying early or mid-war planes would have even less of a chance than we have now. The MA would be over-populated by 1945-era planes. Yuck.
MRPLUTO
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Wotan--
You've hit the nail on the head. How fast will our Ki-84 be? I've seen different top speeds, too. Will the AH model take into account the poor quality of Japanese fuel? Will it take into account the fragility of the Frank's wings to high G forces?
Stay tuned...
MRPLUTO
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So far perks are primarily on "rare" planes...190-9, la-7 and Pony are all the latest and greatest from their respective countries. Personally I have no clue why the spiXIV is perked since it was the primary fighter in late 44 for british. I've never been shot down by a spitXIV in MA (mostly since its flown wrong). That being said the perk system has its place (which I never thought). I recently joined the AK's and have been burning perkies prior to having skuzzy change my "name" over...I'm 31-1 in tempest this tour with only lose to a golden bb from a B-17. This mostly flying against the rook horde...so if the Ki is a real "rice rocket" maybe it needs perking...otherwise let it be. Truthfully La-7 /D-9 isnt all that far off the tempest unless you get up over 15-16k or so...
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Nevertheless, I predict that after a few months we'll see the "Hayate" [pron. hah'-yah-tay], aka "Frank" get perked, I hope along with the P-51D, La-7, Fw-190D-9, Bf-109G-10, Yak-9U, and maybe the Typhoon. By perking them all at the same time, we'll get the whining over with in one dose, and avoid charges that "you're just picking on my favorite plane!"
MRPLUTO [/B]
Why would relatively high ENY planes like the Dora and Yak 9U and Gustav deserve perking? They're fast, but once they're perked something else will be the fastest unperked plane.
Is this the wishful thinking of a TnB fan?
You know, energy fighting doesnt have to mean 25 mile extensions, and we who like to vertically zoom and rope shouldnt be penalized.;)
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MRPLUTO,
Read the thread Wotan linked to and this thread, particularly the second page:
Ki-84, "Macho blue yonder" and P-51-'38-'47 killer or just another stop gap fighter? (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130704)
To sum it up, only the prototypes had the ~390mph top speed. Production Ki-84s, using Japanese fuel and methanol-water injection, did better than 410mph and using American 100 octane fuel with exceptional maintainance, but no methanol-water injection, did 427mph.
Simaril,
No, it is the wishful thinking of 1942/43 fans.
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I'll never understand the "perk the ### ride" argument. Yes the LA-7 is Uber under 8k, but with only 20min flight time w/o any wep, it's hardly deserving a perk.
Last month I killed 49 La-7's, vs I was killed BY 4. Hmmm.... Just how does that merit a perk? They easy kills.
Bring on the fast FRANK. I'm looking quite forward to it. I just hope the sucker has some "Legs".
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flyingaround,
You're personal stats are useful only for your bragging. They mean nothing in regards to the effect of the La-7 on the game. If your favaorite ride was nigh helpless against the La-7, even poorly flown, you might see it differently.
As to the Ki-84's legs, assuming you mean fuel range, it could go just over 1,000 miles on internal fuel.
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the main arena will be filled with the KI84 for a month and then its numbers will fall to will it will stand
i say to all KI84 drivers
BRING IT ON!:D
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You know, there are, ahem, OTHER WWII flightsim games that have the KI-84, and while it was a powerful plane over there, it was hardly the unbeatable plane that folks here are talking about.
I for one remember horrible cannon balistics, not entirely unlike the Zero...
-Llama
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Originally posted by llama
I for one remember horrible cannon balistics, not entirely unlike the Zero...
It has the exact same guns as the Ki-61-I-Tei that we have in AH.
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Originally posted by MRPLUTO
guppy--
I also like flying planes that offer more of a challenge. Two favorites: the P-47D-11 and Ki-67. But...not everyone feels the way we do. Imagine if the F4U-4, Spit XIV, or Me-262 weren't perked? We'd see them constantly. Those of us who persisted in flying early or mid-war planes would have even less of a chance than we have now. The MA would be over-populated by 1945-era planes. Yuck.
MRPLUTO
I figure it would be worth it just to end the 'why can't I fly what I want" whines :)
They'd still have to slow down to get my mid war plane
Dan/Slack
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If everyone flew Me262s?
I'd still fly some of the earlier planes.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
If everyone flew Me262s?
I'd still fly some of the earlier planes.
Yep, I'd just sit down in the weeds at about 50 feet in a Spit V and turn out of the way to watch em auger as they dove in :)
Dan/Slack
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Mr. Pluto,
You're right! The ki84 will become a favourite - not because of its historical relevance, and not because of that polished belly (lol) but for the reasons you said. We had it in WB and it was an awesome plane in every sense. As you know, WB had an RPS, and in the later stages of the "war" the Allies would get the P51D. The 190s (as modelled in WB, and remember - the D9 was nothing like the AH D9) were of limited use against the P51D, but the ki84 was dynamite! I never really had any interest in flying IJN planes, so didn't fly the ki84 that much. But the things I remember about it were the speed, climb rate, turning ability and incredible firepower. The dweebs are gonna love it!
I was an F6F guy in WB, and recall that the ki84 was the most serious adversary. With one of those on my 6, the only survival tactic I found that worked was to barrel roll, which in many cases would see the frank's ailerons lock up, and he would enter an irrecoverable spin.
If the F4U-1C deserves 8 perks, the ki84 surely deserves at least 12.
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Guns won't be bad, imagine the Ki61 with another set of its cowl cannons in place of the wing MGs.
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The Ho-5s are good guns but their rate of fire will cause unnecessary use of ammo.
It will be no more "lethal" in fire power then the Ki-61.
Its climb and top speed will be what makes it a killer. However, how fast and how well it climbs will depend on how its modeled.
At 388mph or there about the niki or spit 5 and la7 would be a better choice.
Abovce 410+ is another story...
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yep, mid-war fans are going to have a hard time.
Bozon
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no such thing as too much ROF, for seasoned sticks that is :)
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Deck speed will make or break the Hayate, not its top speed at altitude. The La-7 is a ~410 mph top speed plane, but it does 380 on the deck. Now if the Hayate does 350-360 mph on the deck while out-turning Spits and out-climbing everything but 109G-10's ...
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Thats kinda implied in what I was saying aint it? If top speed is 388mph rather then 410+ then that would also mean a lower deck speed...
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No that's not kinda waht you implied IMHO.
Originally posted by Wotan
Its climb and top speed will be what makes it a killer. However, how fast and how well it climbs will depend on how its modeled.
At 388mph or there about the niki or spit 5 and la7 would be a better choice.
Only the La7 would be faster and probably better of the planes you mentioned. The Hayate would dominate the Niki and any model spit on the deck, even the XIV.
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No way would Ki84 dominate a Spit XIV on the deck, there is far too big a climb a rate advantage for Spit XIV for that to happend and their low altitude speeds are about equal even if you consider a high speed value for Ki84..
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The Spit14's climb has been derated in AH2. It climbs no better than a 109G-10 now. The Hayate will out-turn it while being just as fast ... or faster, and have a similar if not equal climb.
Btw. how did the 262 film thing go after I threw a fit and left?
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Sure it is. If the AH Ki-84 is modelled with a higher speed (427) then it will have a higher deck speed (la7 type speed possibly). If modelled at 388 top speed then the deck speed will be around 330-340 and not that impressive. At least not in the realm of perking it.
If you read that thread I linked then you will see where the 388 mph (624 kph) figure is for "standard maximum speed" at +250mmHg boost.
From reading that thread that figure matches up with a Ki-84 with a Ha-45/11
From that thread: (source in bold)
Anyway, here's a profile of how the two Homare models-markly differed-in their respective power-levels@all altitudes(AIREVIEW's General View of Japanese Military Aircraft In ThePacific War, Vol.1,pg.320):
Ha-45/11 NK9-B(IJN-nomenclature)
HP(T.O.): 1,800 @ 400mmHg & 2,900rpm
HP(2,000m/6,562-ft): 1,650 @ 250mmHg & same-rpm
HP(5,700m/18,701-ft): 1,460 @ 250mmHg & same-rpm
Ha-45/21 NK9-H(IJN-nomenclature)
HP(T.O.): 2,000 @ 500mmHg & 3,000rpm
HP(1,800m/5,901-ft): 1,860 @ 350mmHg & same-rpm
HP(6,400m/20,997-ft): 1,620 @ 350mmHg & same-rpm
Notes:
1- The Ha-45/21's more-oft quoted T.O.HP is: 1,990, in most other literature - and the less-oft quoted(fully):2,000Hp was more reserved for the "finally-arrived & matured" Ha-45/22, as the very next step, i.e., that the Model 21 was "almost" the Model 22.
So its not just a matter of top speed at alt. At all alts it will be slower and climb poorer then a Ki-84 with a Ha-45/21. I doubt it will out turn a spit or climb like a G10...
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I really hope we get a Ha-45/21 in it.
If it only does 330mph on the deck I won't even both switching from the Mosquito. I'll fly it now and then, and in CT setups, but if the Mossie is faster, well, then the Mossie willl be a better fighter.
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My bet is its a hybrid of a spit and f6f.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The Spit14's climb has been derated in AH2. It climbs no better than a 109G-10 now. The Hayate will out-turn it while being just as fast ... or faster, and have a similar if not equal climb.
Btw. how did the 262 film thing go after I threw a fit and left?
No figure I have seen for Ki-84 gives it a climb rate even near G10,,
The 262 films have been sent to Pyro. We definitely could have used more bombers in the second flight thogh, we only had 4 formations.. Unfortunately the very same me262 struck alone first against very clear orders and the shoot did not go as planned...
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Originally posted by FiLtH
My bet is its a hybrid of a spit and f6f.
That would be a bit unexpected. The F6F and Spit IX are quite similar already. I'd expect the Ki-84 to be faster than either. We'll see in a week or two or three though.
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When determining how good of a fighter something will be we need more information then maximum sustained turn rate, climb rate, and top speed. Stability is key in turn fights. If the japanese planes we have now are any indication of flap deployment then the 84 could be at least as weak as the 109s. Does anybody have figures for how well the 84 turns when going 150mph? 80mph? This will determine how beatable it is when it doesn't come in with an alt advantage, or its pilot makes a mistake.
-pellik
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pellik,
Well, we won't know until we get it, but it does have combat flaps like the P-38's.
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Curious: Is the American test data comparable in detail to the two prototype tests?
Also from what I gather, 100 octane fuel was used in the American test to "simulate" the methanol water injection.
My question is whether or not this method was used in other American tests of any other captured aircraft.
If it was, then were the results close enough to the test data of the better documented production aircraft?
If that makes any sense.
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Kaz,
As I understand it that is what happened too. I don't know if any other aircraft we tested received the same treatment though.
One thing is sure is that merely changing the fuel does not move the speed from 388 or 392mph (as in the Japanese prototype data) to 427mph as in the American tests. There has got to have been an engine change in there too, and the documentation says it was a switch from an Ha-45/11 in the prototypes to an Ha-45/21 in the production aircraft.
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guppy--
It would stop one kind of whining, but would create a whole new whine. The karmic balance of whining must be maintained.
You have the right attitude...just make 'em fight you low and slow. Make 'em fight your kind of fight.
And maybe packs of early war planes would roam, pouncing on a lone Uberplane like a pack of hyenas attacking a lion.
MRPLUTO