Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Virage on October 04, 2004, 10:51:07 PM
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Rooks have the lowest number of players, NO Eny restriction, and gangbanged by Knits and Bish.
All is right in the world.
:rolleyes:
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Yep, lets dump the ENY factor and get back to business.
I was quite willing to give it a try, but all in all, I think it had a small impact.
Players will decide the numbers. They always will. That is why we pay to play.
go figure.
HTC is a pretty smart company. They encourage thier customers to regulate thier product (not a criticism, a compliment). Bottom line is HTC is willing to listen to thier customers, and try different things to make an improvement, based on what input they get from thier customers.
I love this sim, and lease excuse the jumbled thoughts. RTR's been having a few "wobbly Pops" tonight.
hehe.
RTR (*I Love Youuuu Guyyyys!)
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You couldn't be anymore wrong RTR. The ENY Limiter did its job.
There has been a shift in numbers in the MA due to the ENY limiter.
Complete squads have switched countries along with individuals to try and balance the arena because of the ENY Limiter. The ENY Limiter will probably remain in place for quite some time.
As long as the arena is balanced within the parameters that HT has set, then the ENY Limiter is disabled ... or virtually removed. Once things get out of hand ... it will kick in again. The way the parameters are set now ... its really no big deal unless things get way out of wack.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Complete squads have switched countries along with individuals to try and balance the arena because of the ENY Limiter. The ENY Limiter will probably remain in place for quite some time.
since 42 has not posted... i thought i better clear this up.
JB's did not change because of the ENY in any way whatsoever.
99% of what we fly is not affected by the ENY issue. we switched because of a lack of respect in the rooks, and a lack of overall teamwork. too many loose cannons, and "it's all about me / my sortie" types not caring about how the country does in the "war".
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Originally posted by JB73
we switched because of a lack of respect in the rooks, and a lack of overall teamwork. too many loose cannons, and "it's all about me / my sortie" types not caring about how the country does in the "war".
Hey! I resemb ... resent that! ;)
Have you found the Knits to be any better?
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he im just the messenger LOL
i was no way involved with this decision, in fact i had not been online for like 2 weeks.
that being said.. surprisingly yes, the knights have been working well together at least around us.
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The only thing the ENY limiter as implimented accomplished was to piss off the customer base.
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I'm a rook and I'm pissed at ENY.
We are down to a few bases, beat up by bish-nits and unable to get a full range of planes or GVs because bish have fewer numbers.
How can you fight your way out of a hole when you are penalized for numbers?
ENY does not address the prime balance problem of 2 countries combining to beat up on the country with fewer bases. The number of players in each country is a secondary issue.
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Shoot about half our squad left AH because of the ENY limiter. Were now in WW2OL
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How can you fight your way out of a hole when you are penalized for numbers?
Organize ... simple as that. If you have numbers, and are forced to fly the higher ENY planes, then take a look at the P-47 variants ... very good replacements for the P-51 ... and hardly ever affected by ENY.
A squadron of P-47s are as every bit as dangerous as a squadron of P-51s ... and some would argue that they are more dangerous.
Those that stomped their feet and walked out ... oh well ... those are the types that would have found some other excuse to walk somewhere along the line anyways. Is anything different since their departure ... has gameply suffered because of it ... is the MA a different place since they left ... I don't think so ... probably better off.
73 ... I didn't insinuate that the JBs left because of ENY ... don't know why you felt the need to explain yourself.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
73 ... I didn't insinuate that the JBs left because of ENY ... don't know why you felt the need to explain yourself.
<> sir, not because of you...
only brought it up because it as not been "pubically" discussed, and this thread might have brought it to conversation.
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Killjoy,
The ENY restrictions are not there to prevent a team from losing, nor assist a team in winning.
Personally, I don't fly much anymore, but when I do I see a vast improvement in the playability of the MA.
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I wanted to know why JB's left. Rooks who know better know we are worse without you guys.
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Originally posted by Raider179
I wanted to know why JB's left. Rooks who know better know we are worse without you guys.
Well ya can't have them back ... we Knights are enjoying the company of the JBs ... great bunch of guys.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
The only thing the ENY limiter as implimented accomplished was to piss off the customer base.
That's why I'm taking a break now after +6 years of AH. Cancelled my account last month. Probably come back when TOD is released or sooner if ENY is taken out.
-SLICER
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Pissy finds excuses to be pissy. *ShruG*
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I for one am very glad to be flying with the JBs...they all are personable and will rally the troops so to speak. Knights are better because of the JBs attitude towards the game.
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See ya later all rooks who quit due to #'s, buh buh. Makes me giggle to no end, a lot of us can't play ( i barely make the cut ) due to computer issues, money issues and or other RL issues, I feel for the real bro pilots that can't fly at the moment,
.
.....then along come people who have kick a** machines , bucks and lotsa spare time to play....and they leave a great game cause they whine about one of the game rules.....makes me wanna rip their machines outta their walls and mail them to a bro pilot that loves the game ,and just can't afford it right now.
Just isn't fair sometimes.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
You couldn't be anymore wrong RTR. The ENY Limiter did its job.
There has been a shift in numbers in the MA due to the ENY limiter.
Complete squads have switched countries along with individuals to try and balance the arena because of the ENY Limiter. The ENY Limiter will probably remain in place for quite some time.
I have to disagree that most that have switched did it due to the ENY. Overall the numbers are down, due to alot of players leaving the game or not playing near as much. Most due to them not liking the ENY thing. Most that have switched did it for personal reasons more than ENY limiter. Like the JB's
I could care less about the ENY thing one way or another due to it rearly effects me. I don't agree with it, but can put up with it. I personnally don't think any country; based on their numbers should get something extra or something less than the other 2 countries. If numbers is an issue, then the community as a whole should correct it, not HT.
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I have to disagree that most that have switched did it due to the ENY.
Where did I say ... "most" in my post ?
Overall the numbers are down, due to alot of players leaving the game or not playing near as much. Most due to them not liking the ENY thing.
Like I said before ... its working and those that have left because of it ... sorry things got to tuff for ya and ya had to stomp off the playing field ... waaaaaaahhhh.
I personnally don't think any country; based on their numbers should get something extra or something less than the other 2 countries.
I personally think they should ... isn't America great ?
If numbers is an issue, then the community as a whole should correct it, not HT.
Many a post was put up by many a Knight/Bishop asking that the gang-bang horde cease and desist and could some of the Rooks squads and/or Rooks switch to create a balance.
All responses were along the lines of ...
"Whiner cry-baby" ... "we were in the bucket" ... "you can suffer too".
Except the difference between when the Rooks were in the bucket and screaming, and now, is that some major squads took it upon themselves to move and create the balance along with some concerned individuals.
Not this time around ... straight out refusals to switch and weren't the least concerned about the imbalance ... hence ENY.
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Originally posted by Virage
Rooks have the lowest number of players, NO Eny restriction, and gangbanged by Knits and Bish.
All is right in the world.
:rolleyes:
But Virage, all the rooks have to do is employ that superior organizational skill we heard so much about from the rooks. :) It's so easy! Just ask GhstDncr or Zazen, they can give you chapter and verse!
curly
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There has been one good suggestion to fix ENY.
Make it apply only to non-home bases. In other words, if you are invading another country and your numbers are superior, you have a limited planeset at those invaded fields. Your home fields always have a full plane set.
This resolves my complaint of being hammered down to a few home bases and having a limited plane-set.
This is reasonable.
The main problem is not country numbers, its 2 countries hammering the 3rd. ENY doesn't address this other than reducing the overal numbers by pissing off players and to some extend re-distibuting some to other countries.
Yes organization will overcome the 2-on-1 syndrome. Lets promote organization instead of punishing numbers with ENY.
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Make it apply only to non-home bases. In other words, if you are invading another country and your numbers are superior, you have a limited planeset at those invaded fields. Your home fields always have a full plane set.
This was actually discussed at the Con and HT felt that the way that the parameters are set for the ENY now and the voluntary moves by some, probably wouldn't require him to make any more changes in this area.
The main problem is not country numbers, its 2 countries hammering the 3rd. ENY doesn't address this other than reducing the overal numbers by pissing off players and to some extend re-distibuting some to other countries.
And this is not something that HT will change ... he said so at the con. This is what he considers a gameplay scenario and he will do nothing to change it.
The ENY wasn't meant to balance gameplay, only to balance overall numbers ... once numbers are balanced, its up to the countries to deal with where the concentrations of attacks are happening.
Also, it is the design of the map and where your country is positioned on the map the determines if you are going to be facing a constant 2 front war. Simple as that. The is no "truce", implied or otherwise that you will find that will cause 2 countries to gang 1 country.
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Wow...really??
Just think, a couple squads go bish/knights and now the rooks are getting hammered...
Shows ya how valuable teamwork is.
F*** the ENY, balancing is not the solution. The solution is caring about your country and ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING to benefit your country.
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Originally posted by Mak333
The solution is caring about your country and ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING to benefit your country.
What's that got to do with playing Aces High? ;)
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Originally posted by Virage
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhh
:rolleyes:
boooooriiiiiinnng
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F*** the ENY, balancing is not the solution. The solution is caring about your country and ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING to benefit your country.
I pledge allegiance ... to the flag ... of the United States of Knights/Rooks/Bishops ...
Nope ... not working for me ... :D
IT'S A GAME !!!
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Originally posted by JB73
... we switched because of a lack of respect in the rooks ...
JB73, can you elaborate on this point? The Rooks didn't respect the JBs, or there is a general country-wide lack of respect for each other individually? Like most Rooks I miss flying with the JBs and welcome any constructive criticism that will make the Rooks a better team in the future :).
Cya Up!
Dawg
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IT'S A GAME.......in each moment you are playing make the best of the people and resources around you. It's not their job to hold your hand, agree with you, play your way, aknowlege your existance, or think you look cute and fuzzy.:D
You payed your 15 smackers at the door like the rest of us. What you do in this Ice Rink depends completely on YOU and not US.;)
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Originally posted by Dawggus
JB73, can you elaborate on this point? The Rooks didn't respect the JBs, or there is a general country-wide lack of respect for each other individually? Like most Rooks I miss flying with the JBs and welcome any constructive criticism that will make the Rooks a better team in the future :).
Cya Up!
Dawg
42 will have to speak on that since i was not there..
but hearsay, they were disrespected on numerous occasions by a select few rooks, and told that night to "shove it" for lack of a better word.. so they did.
<> i still like rooks, and hope one day to return. but i am not CO or XO, just a peon furballer, and IT dude for squad LOL
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If numbers is an issue, then the community as a whole should correct it, not HT.
The community wasnt correcting it, in fact many outright refused to do anything to correct it, so HiTech stepped in with the ENY limiter.
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Originally posted by Mak333
Wow...really??
Just think, a couple squads go bish/knights and now the rooks are getting hammered...
Shows ya how valuable teamwork is.
F*** the ENY, balancing is not the solution. The solution is caring about your country and ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING to benefit your country.
I disagree. The solution is caring about the game. If more people cared about the game and not their virtual country HiTech wouldnt have needed to implement the ENY limiter.
I've said this before many times, but I'll say it again here.
Games are meant to be fun. When a game is no longer fun for EVERYONE, then it's no longer a game.
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Originally posted by Virage
Rooks have the lowest number of players, NO Eny restriction, and gangbanged by Knits and Bish.
All is right in the world.
:rolleyes:
This is the way it should be.
The out numbered, the underdogs... The place with the most fun.
The way it was little more than a year ago.
:)
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Every day its basically the same, rooks have the numbers and people say on the forums to even the numbers out on each country. Rooks just say shut up and play, and what fun is it to the bish and knights to get gang banged everywhere we go and get killed as soon as we enter the fight or have to run and be called a coward on ch 1 because we run from a gangbang. I am glad the ENY limiter was put in because it has gotten the rooks to learn the having numbers all the time is lame and is getting them to change sides so they can fly the planes they want. I have never seen the knights or bish ENY go above 5 at primetime. Rooks on sundays go well above 9 having them lose all their planes and earning a lesson that having almost 300 people on one side isn't fun to others.
Canaris
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On the flipside, the numbers of the entire MA rarely tops 300 now on prime time. :)
Yay!:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
The only thing the ENY limiter as implimented accomplished was to piss off the customer base.
its not pissed me off, infact its made my sunday nights more injoyable.........:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
On the flipside, the numbers of the entire MA rarely tops 300 now on prime time. :)
Yay!:rolleyes:
According to most of the pom-pom shakers it's approx 4-500 players?
I could be wrong, I remember there was always over 500 players on the weekends.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
If numbers is an issue, then the community as a whole should correct it, not HT.
Many a post was put up by many a Knight/Bishop asking that the gang-bang horde cease and desist and could some of the Rooks squads and/or Rooks switch to create a balance.
All responses were along the lines of ...
"Whiner cry-baby" ... "we were in the bucket" ... "you can suffer too".
Except the difference between when the Rooks were in the bucket and screaming, and now, is that some major squads took it upon themselves to move and create the balance along with some concerned individuals.
Not this time around ... straight out refusals to switch and weren't the least concerned about the imbalance ... hence ENY. [/B]
LOL now that's just hilarious. The only time there's a rook imbalance is RJO nights. 1 day a week (if it's still running that is). The other 6 days of the week it's the typical bish+nit gangbang on the rooks, with rooks usually having the lowest numbers. Been like this for a long, long, long time, and RJO was started to counter it. Not our fault all the weenies from bish-nit land bailed out instead of fighting :D
Now Elfie, as for fun... it's NOT fun for me when my preferred ride, the -51D, is not available. It's not fun for me if I have to change countries to fly it, and end up having to shoot at my friends in Rookland to find a fight because there's barely any activity on the nit-bish front. And if you're gonna say "fly another plane or live with the country change" you better hand over your CC# when you do.
73 I was on when ya'll left Rookland.. 42 was being a total Napoleonic ******* and pretty much abusing anyone who said anything in his general direction. Maybe I missed what set him off /shrug But it seemed more like a case of "I'm takin my toys and leaving, so =p"
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Originally posted by CavemanJ
LOL now that's just hilarious. The only time there's a rook imbalance is RJO nights. 1 day a week (if it's still running that is). The other 6 days of the week it's the typical bish+nit gangbang on the rooks, with rooks usually having the lowest numbers. Been like this for a long, long, long time, and RJO was started to counter it. Not our fault all the weenies from bish-nit land bailed out instead of fighting :D
Now Elfie, as for fun... it's NOT fun for me when my preferred ride, the -51D, is not available. It's not fun for me if I have to change countries to fly it, and end up having to shoot at my friends in Rookland to find a fight because there's barely any activity on the nit-bish front. And if you're gonna say "fly another plane or live with the country change" you better hand over your CC# when you do.
73 I was on when ya'll left Rookland.. 42 was being a total Napoleonic ******* and pretty much abusing anyone who said anything in his general direction. Maybe I missed what set him off /shrug But it seemed more like a case of "I'm takin my toys and leaving, so =p"
Caveman ...
Nothing hilarious except the fact that you really have no clue as to what I was referencing to. Go back about a year or so and the Rooks were getting their collective arses handed to them day in and day out. They appealed, and asked for balance, and some major squads took the challenge and switched to Rooks to provide relief and balance.
Our sqaud, a few months back, flew for the Rooks for 2 months. Every day that I flew for those 2 months, the Rooks enjoyed and basked in having superior numbers over both other countries, so don't come here trying to tell me or anybody else that the only day Rooks enjoyed vast numbers was during an RJO, cause it ain't true.
During our 2 month stay, there was not one RJO that took place and when speaking with Grimm at the con, he freely admitted that RJOs are not as prevelant as most think they are. Sundays became a big squad day for the Rooks and that is why most assumed that an RJO was taking place.
You can't fly your P-51-D ... oh the horror ... try the B Model ... you might be surprised. Better yet ... try a Jug ... I find P-51s easy prey for the D-25 ... YMMV.
Barely any actvity on the Bish-Nit Front ? ... please ... I flew last night and switched back and forth between the Rook and Bish fronts and there was plenty of action on both fronts. Anybody worth their salt knows that the fighting front is, for the most part, determined by the map and the position of the countries within the map. Each map has established a "flow" and all watermelon moves that way, so what appears to be a "truce" is totally fictitious.
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CavemanJ,
You're way off base there. Just before the ENY limiter was discussed I logged on every day for a week at Pacific prime time. Every single time I logged on not only did the Rooks have a heavy advantage in numbers, but the Knights were down to five or fewer bases and getting perpetually pounded.
This week was no different that my other recent experiences. To claim that the Rooks only had an advantage on Sunday is to be blissfully oblivious to what was actually happening.
Now the Rooks have complained loudly and persistantly about the ENY limiter. Maybe that had something to do with HiTech's changes to it or not, I don't know, but now the imbalance has to be very high before it kicks in. High enough that it rarely does kick in any more and now the Rooks seem to be down, outnumbered and wondering why they are still facing P-51Ds and La-7s.
On the other hand I flew for the Rooks for my first three years or so in AH. For the first year I don't recall numbers being a problem for the Rooks, but then for the next two years it seemed that the Rooks were steeply outnumbered a significant majority of the time. All that we Rooks got from the other sides were snide comments about "everybody getting a turn in the bucket." There were no squads that moved to address the imbalance as is claimed now. I remember RJOs beginning to happen and I remember it being so bad just before I left that on an RJO night that I was participating in, the Rooks were still slightly outnumbered. I also remember HiTech's first attempt at side balancing using the carrot of cheaper perk units and faster perk earning having essentially no effect.
A few months after I joined a CT squad that then formed a MA Knight squad I recall the Rook numbers growing as people finally acted to try to balance the Rooks, but for two years nothing had happened other than HiTech's carrot balancing attempt.
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Originally posted by Meatwad
Shoot about half our squad left AH because of the ENY limiter.
Heh....I think a lot of folks are using the ENY limiter as an excuse to hide the real reason for their leaving. Its always easier to place the blame on someone else. I admit AH has been stagnant for a while. Everybody is anxiously awaiting new planes, etc. I am one of them but I havent flown much in about a year simply because I was burnt out. Take a break, get out and do something else. I think you will realize when you come back that it wasnt the ENY limiter that made you quit.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
The ENY Limiter did its job.
imho, to be fair, it is too early to say whether the side-balancer is doing its job or not, because, if it is then Rooks should not get gangbanged as a result of the side-balancer. From the start of this thread, it seems that the horde just moved across the border at the moment.
But then, from Karnak's post, I gather that the settings have been tweaked to make the side-balancer not as severe (hence effect is weaker).
But then again, what do I know... I haven't been flying much lately...
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Isn't amazing that after all this time with ENY limiter that the some Rooks still feel that this is aimed solely at them?
psuedo-quote "Rooks only have numbers 1 night a week the rest of the time we are outnumbered" followed usually in the same post by "I am mad because I can never fly my favorite ride". Umm, the only time your plane choice is limited is when you have a numbers advantage hence one part of the usual argument is simply not true, a lie, a bit of selective truthtelling, and/or bogus.
As a refresher since many of the whiners still do not seem to grasp this fundamental point: The ENY limiter kicks on when ANY country has a significant numbers advantage. This means that it could affect knights today, bish tomorrow, and rooks the next day. It is not something that happens ONLY to the rooks.
Bottom Line: If you have numbers your plane choice may be limited. If you are outnumbered all planes will be available to you. This is true for all THREE countries and the ENY limiter is not some S&M device that is being used to enslave the rooks.
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Don't Mistake getting gangbanged with having half your country mindlessly furballing and the rest getting pummeled because the furballers refuse to help. :p
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And the "southern exposure" theory some used to explain why B&K were ganging the Rooks goes out the window on this map reset too. Rooks in the NE corner, still getting ganged, still has the fewest bases, still gets ENY'd when they have enough people to counterbalance this behavior - week after week after week.
I ain't flying, but I do peek in and survey the map just to see if the behavior has changed. And it hasn't. Which makes most posts I see about "fairness and balance" next to meaningless.
They would have a lot more credability if more people who weren't Rooks agreed that the number fields should be part of the ENY calculation - so that sides that are down can counter-attack effectively. But no ... it's "fine now" because without that modification it lets the B&K preserve their advantage when numbers shift. It keeps the side that's ganged up on down longer.
I can't decide if some of you just can't see the big picture or are just so selfish that you won't enterain any idea which could reduce your chance of victory. I'm not singling anyone out either - just the general trend of posting has been very corrosive to the community. Starting with the "Fly another plane, Princess" crap directed at Rooks the day ENY went into force - it was your B&K countrymen with comments like that which reinforced the notion that ENY was put in place to hurt Rooks.
And obviously a good many folks posting here (from all sides) do get the big picture and have agreed with further balancing improvements. But just as with our oh so wunnerful US government, as long as the MA balance issue continues to be handled with partisan politics, it will never really get any better.
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Originally posted by SFCHONDO
I have to disagree that most that have switched did it due to the ENY. Overall the numbers are down, due to alot of players leaving the game or not playing near as much. Most due to them not liking the ENY thing. Most that have switched did it for personal reasons more than ENY limiter. Like the JB's
I could care less about the ENY thing one way or another due to it rearly effects me. I don't agree with it, but can put up with it. I personnally don't think any country; based on their numbers should get something extra or something less than the other 2 countries. If numbers is an issue, then the community as a whole should correct it, not HT.
Yet I notice the numbers on the knights and bish seems to be up. Some people switched countrys because of the ENY limiter, more switched because of the attention the ENY limiter brings to the problems an unbalance in country numbers has on the arena.
The first few weeks of the ENY limiter didn't seem to have any effect, except for the whines on the forum here about not getting to fly packs of ponys, but the first time I saw rooks at even numbers with knights and bish on their sunday squad night I noticed that within an hour more then half the rook horde quit. Was this some sort of mass protest against even odds? Or is it just that all those pilots individually don't really want to fight, but just to cruise around with a pack and feel badass. Maybe there was a problem, and the low rook numbers now are part of the game's healing process.
-pellik
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For bubbaj6
quote "Umm, the only time your plane choice is limited is when you have a numbers advantage hence one part of the usual argument is simply not true, a lie, a bit of selective truthtelling, and/or bogus. "
Here's the set up.
1) Rooks are down to 25 bases.
2) Bishnits are only attacking Rooks because they are the underdog.
3) rooks have 100, nits have 130, bish have 80.
ENY punishes Rooks because bish have fewer numbers. Nits enjoy a considerable numbers lead but ENY still punishes Rooks.
Anytime Rooks get numbers to fight out of a corner Rooks get punished even if both countries are jumping on the underdog.
It's been said that HTC won't set up a punishment system in AH but if this isn't punishment, I don't know what is.
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Lets not compare this with when rooks had numbers. ENY changed the rules and makes comparisons false. ENY cripples any countries ability to fight their way out of a hole instead of helping.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
And the "southern exposure" theory some used to explain why B&K were ganging the Rooks goes out the window on this map reset too. Rooks in the NE corner, still getting ganged, still has the fewest bases, still gets ENY'd when they have enough people to counterbalance this behavior - week after week after week.
I ain't flying, but I do peek in and survey the map just to see if the behavior has changed. And it hasn't. Which makes most posts I see about "fairness and balance" next to meaningless.
They would have a lot more credability if more people who weren't Rooks agreed that the number fields should be part of the ENY calculation - so that sides that are down can counter-attack effectively. But no ... it's "fine now" because without that modification it lets the B&K preserve their advantage when numbers shift. It keeps the side that's ganged up on down longer.
I can't decide if some of you just can't see the big picture or are just so selfish that you won't enterain any idea which could reduce your chance of victory. I'm not singling anyone out either - just the general trend of posting has been very corrosive to the community. Starting with the "Fly another plane, Princess" crap directed at Rooks the day ENY went into force - it was your B&K countrymen with comments like that which reinforced the notion that ENY was put in place to hurt Rooks.
And obviously a good many folks posting here (from all sides) do get the big picture and have agreed with further balancing improvements. But just as with our oh so wunnerful US government, as long as the MA balance issue continues to be handled with partisan politics, it will never really get any better.
Dok,
I do agree that there could be some more parameters added to the ENY limiter, but at the same time, I totally disagree with your assement of the gameplay problems ... so I must be an exception to your rule.
Your constant insistence that the Bish and Knights are ganging up on the Rooks due to some sort of unspoken alliance and partisan politics play a role, is complete conjecture on your part.
Your observations are based on your very limited and short-time return to AH. I have been playing consistenly for almost 3 years now and I would believe that it is you who doesn't see the big picture.
Again, I do beleive that the ENY limiter could be tweaked some more, but at the same time, whatever tweaking the HT could do, would not change "gameplay" and your ficticious alliance of B&K against the Rooks.
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Originally posted by Killjoy2
For bubbaj6
quote "Umm, the only time your plane choice is limited is when you have a numbers advantage hence one part of the usual argument is simply not true, a lie, a bit of selective truthtelling, and/or bogus. "
Here's the set up.
1) Rooks are down to 25 bases.
2) Bishnits are only attacking Rooks because they are the underdog.
3) rooks have 100, nits have 130, bish have 80.
ENY punishes Rooks because bish have fewer numbers. Nits enjoy a considerable numbers lead but ENY still punishes Rooks.
Anytime Rooks get numbers to fight out of a corner Rooks get punished even if both countries are jumping on the underdog.
It's been said that HTC won't set up a punishment system in AH but if this isn't punishment, I don't know what is.
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Lets not compare this with when rooks had numbers. ENY changed the rules and makes comparisons false. ENY cripples any countries ability to fight their way out of a hole instead of helping.
Well I remember, not too long ago, that the Rooks claimed that their constant success was due to superior strategy and not numbers.
If that is the case, then the Rooks should be able to fight out of the hole with superior numbers and lesser plane cause they are so strategically superior.
Hint ... the JUG is a very dangerous plane ... moreso than the P-51.
Hint ... the La-5 is as close to an La-7 that one could get.
Hint ... the Spit V is a very deadly plane.
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SlapShot,
I've been dealing with the psychology of this genre since 1987 (and, no, I ain't a shrink). As such, there are behavior trends I expect to see in response to events and changes in the game itself.
Truces can be overt, implied, or the product of group-think. I posted elsewhere that I expect to see the side which booms on an overlapping squad night (a'la RJO) to get ganged the following nights as "pay back." That's a group-think truce. And it more or less self-balances the arena as any gains from the boom night are retaken the following nights. (Working together against the boom is an implied truce.)
But now we have a situation where the boom night is difused and a truce of any kind is rewarded as the side in the hole can't get out nearly as easily thanks to ENY. So a group-think truce now becomes part of the normal behavior - because it's easier for others to "win" (for some twisted definition of "winning") that way.
On top of which, the self-righteous justification that Rooks "always had overwhelming numbers" makes it easier to carry this behavior forward and feel ok in doing so.
The southern-exposure theory has now been proven false on this map reset. It may have been true at one point, but something else has changed and the attack vector now is aimed by politics instead of the compass.
When ENY kicked in it was "Fly another plane, Princess" to the Rooks. What's hilarious is that now when Rooks complain that they're in the hole and ENY keeps 'em there, I see B&K say things here like "get more organized." That's rich - cuz if they did that in the first place ENY wouldn't have been needed.
What all this tells me is that balance wasn't the desired result by the pro-ENY camp - it was to take away someone else's advantage. And that's a completely different thing. Which isn't to say balancing code is a bad idea. But it's being taken advantage of and since this favors 2/3 of the player base I guess the remaining 1/3 can just take it or leave. How's that for balance?
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DoKGonZo,
I explicitly disagree that base numbers should be factored into the ENY Limiter.
If they were resets would become nigh impossible. Base ownership is about gameplay, not a basic level of competition such as team size.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
SlapShot,
I've been dealing with the psychology of this genre since 1987 (and, no, I ain't a shrink). As such, there are behavior trends I expect to see in response to events and changes in the game itself.
Truces can be overt, implied, or the product of group-think. I posted elsewhere that I expect to see the side which booms on an overlapping squad night (a'la RJO) to get ganged the following nights as "pay back." That's a group-think truce. And it more or less self-balances the arena as any gains from the boom night are retaken the following nights. (Working together against the boom is an implied truce.)
But now we have a situation where the boom night is difused and a truce of any kind is rewarded as the side in the hole can't get out nearly as easily thanks to ENY. So a group-think truce now becomes part of the normal behavior - because it's easier for others to "win" (for some twisted definition of "winning") that way.
On top of which, the self-righteous justification that Rooks "always had overwhelming numbers" makes it easier to carry this behavior forward and feel ok in doing so.
The southern-exposure theory has now been proven false on this map reset. It may have been true at one point, but something else has changed and the attack vector now is aimed by politics instead of the compass.
When ENY kicked in it was "Fly another plane, Princess" to the Rooks. What's hilarious is that now when Rooks complain that they're in the hole and ENY keeps 'em there, I see B&K say things here like "get more organized." That's rich - cuz if they did that in the first place ENY wouldn't have been needed.
What all this tells me is that balance wasn't the desired result by the pro-ENY camp - it was to take away someone else's advantage. And that's a completely different thing. Which isn't to say balancing code is a bad idea. But it's being taken advantage of and since this favors 2/3 of the player base I guess the remaining 1/3 can just take it or leave. How's that for balance?
Dok,
I recognize your longevity in this genre and as a result, your posts are read by me with all seriousness, but on the other hand, it does not automatically validate your points and/or observations.
Here is my take ...
Prior to ENY, there was a tremendous imbalance and it was the Rooks that enjoyed the over abundance of players. A year or so ago, the Rooks were in the hole and in a big way. This forced the Rooks to get organized, and along with some switching by squads in both the Knights and Bish, helped swing the pendulum and get them out of the hole.
For a long period of time, things were pretty even, but somewhere along the line, and I can't put a time period on it, the Rooks gained much more strength and it came with "numbers".
Prior to ENY be instituted, there were MANY whines/post that the Rooks were hording and running amok on the maps. Many a Rook responded to these claims stating that it really wasn't the numbers, but their more effective/superior communication and organizational/strategic skills. This pissed alot of people off, so this is probably why you won't get much sympathy from people who were not Rooks during this timeframe which does support your quote ...
On top of which, the self-righteous justification that Rooks "always had overwhelming numbers" makes it easier to carry this behavior forward and feel ok in doing so.
Now that the ENY has taken the numbers away from them, they seem to be confused and their organization has gone out the window and is fractured. To me, this validates the ENY action. Take the numbers advantage away, and the Rooks are really no different than any other country.
The Southern-Exposure theory is not false. There are always exceptions, and you have witnessed a couple of them, but for all intents and purposes, the theory will always be more true than false.
I can theorize that the country that enjoys the west in Mindano will never be reset ... in the 3 years that I have been here, I have only see it reset ONCE ... so that theory will be more true than false, but there is always a chance that it will be false.
I haven't flown in the past few days, but I too was surprised, to see the Knights push northward into Rook territory. What also surprised me was the level of organization that the Knights have displayed lately. I can assure you that this has not been the norm for the Knights for quite some time. Why all of a sudden ? .. It could be due to the fact that some who have switched, have brought new and fresh feelings to the Knights which has spurned a new or revived level of organization. Take my word for it ... very very rarely does the southern country ever push north and win.
What all this tells me is that balance wasn't the desired result by the pro-ENY camp - it was to take away someone else's advantage.
I am a card carrying member of the pro-ENY camp, and I can assure you that it is balance that I wanted, and it truely did take away an advatange ... the numbers advantage.
With that eliminated from the MA, what is left over, at this point in time, is the deep set animosity that the Bish and Knights developed towards the Rooks. This is your "payback" scenario and that is why you see "Fly another plane, Princess" or "get more organized" responses ... had the Rook posters had not been so smug when appeals were made for balance, maybe things might be different. They basically made their own bed ... you know the rest. Animosity is something, I believe, that HTC can't fix with coding changes or ENY tweaking.
I personally attack both the Bish and Rooks, it all depends upon where the fights are (non-hording fights) and where the attacks are coming from. I also do believe that there are some more tweaks that could be made to the ENY limiter.
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Originally posted by Karnak
DoKGonZo,
I explicitly disagree that base numbers should be factored into the ENY Limiter.
If they were resets would become nigh impossible. Base ownership is about gameplay, not a basic level of competition such as team size.
I thought the map was getting reset every week again. If so, who cares about forced resets.
I seem to recall that there was some agreement that one side getting backed up week after week was "no fun." HT even changed the reset threshhold for this reason. But I guess it's OK for some people to be backed up to their last few bases week after week as long as other people can get their resets.
And if team size isn't about gameplay, why was ENY put in?
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I thought the map was getting reset every week again. If so, who cares about forced resets.
I seem to recall that there was some agreement that one side getting backed up week after week was "no fun." HT even changed the reset threshhold for this reason. But I guess it's OK for some people to be backed up to their last few bases week after week as long as other people can get their resets.
And if team size isn't about gameplay, why was ENY put in?
I just don't get it !!!
For the sake of arguement lets say this is what we have ...
Bish - 80 pilots - 30 fields
Knights - 100 pilots - 28 fields
Rooks - 160 pilots - 10 fields
In this scenario, the Rooks are backed up to the wall on fields but have the numbers advantage. This then causes the ENY to kick in and the ...
P-51-D is not available
Spit IX is not available
La-7 is not available
N1K is not available
So, why couldn't the Rooks, who enjoy the numbers advantage attack with ...
P-51-B or any of the P-47 variants ? Very dangerous replacements and in some instances a better replacement.
Spit V ? Really not different than the IX except for flat-out speed.
La-5N ? Not too far off from the La-7.
F-6F ? Most don't realize how effective this plane is. Probably the best all-around plane in the game.
I would think that organized attacks with these planes would be no less effective than attacks using the ones that were eliminated by ENY, and with numbers, makes them even more effective.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
...
I personally attack both the Bish and Rooks, it all depends upon where the fights are (non-hording fights) and where the attacks are coming from. I also do believe that there are some more tweaks that could be made to the ENY limiter.
I generally avoided Sunday nights cuz I hate the Horde ... when ENY went in then it became interesting with the lesser planes. So this "payback" of which you speak is kind of the same deal as ENY in that I (as a relatively new player - at least in this incarnation) am being penalized for a situation I didn't create or contribute to.
Your points make a lot of sense and fill in some of the blanks as far as history goes.
But if I accept your premise that still leaves the impression that even though they got their way, B&K are still dishing out payback to Rooks. So was the goal really to get balance or to get even? Probably both.
I also think you're confusing loss of numbers with loss of leadership. A lot of the Rooks who griped about ENY ran squads, their complaint was that this disrupted their chosen way of playing the game. When you have squadrons leave that will have a bigger impact on team effectiveness than a similar number of freelancers leaving. And when I say "leave" I mean they're not playing AH2 anymore for any country - they're gone.
2.01 will revitalize the MA (we should rename it the KA for a while) some but the walls which ENY has put up will take many months to tear down.
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DoKGonZo,
Some people like the reset thing. To me it makes no difference, I just want to fly and fight.
Personally I would have set the reset threshold higher than HiTech did, say 7 airfields. I agree that it is no fun to be backed into the corner perpetually. However, when I last mentioned it, it was the Knights who had been backed into a corner for a week (at least at PST play times) and the response from the Rooks was basically "Yeah? So? Why don't you fight your way out while we vulch you?"
Now that you have relatively even numbers you complain? What would you have been doing were you a Knight at that time? Shrieking?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I just don't get it !!!
...
OK ... consider this from a Rooks point of view ... maybe one who doesn't read the BBS and know why this is happening.
You have two conditions you fly under - either outnumbered, outbased, but with all planes - or outbased, with numbers, to some degree being ganged (enough that it has upset the southern exposure paradigm), and now penalized on plane selection.
When does this Rook ever feel like he isn't at a disadvantage? You're "losing the war" and when you get enough people to counterattack you get penalized for it.
Even though the La-5, F6F, etc. are great planes - you forgot the Fw190A-5 in there, BTW - you still see you are being penalized in some way.
It's probably more subjective than anything. But no one likes to feel like they're at a disadvantage all the time.
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Originally posted by Karnak
....
Now that you have relatively even numbers you complain? What would you have been doing were you a Knight at that time? Shrieking?
Don't put words in my mouth. I was very much in favor of raising the reset threshold - and it was put in while the Sunday Horde was still happening.
I also predicted the very complaint we're seeing now about being ENY'd when backed into a corner the day ENY was implemented - before it affected *anyone*. And, back when ENY went in, it was Bish and Knit who were backed into a corner more often than Rooks - so I was *their* advocate in wanting them to not be ENY'd when they had numbers to push back The Horde.
I really do not appreciate being falsely accused of things. Kindly knock it off.
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Killjoy,
Your right, the situation you describe is a tough one. However it is impossible to correct. Tomorrow it could be the knights in the situation you describe, or maybe the bish.
The point is that the limiter comes into play when numbers are imbalanced at that moment in time. It could be that your side is in the hole when you finally get numbers but that is the way it works unfortunately. On a pure probability scale the scenario you describe is just as likely to happen to any of the three sides at some point.
I know from personal experiences that you are somewhat handicapped when this does take place but all is certainly not lost. I have done many times what SlapShot is saying. I have substituted a P-47, P-38, or a Bf-110 for my usual JABO ride. I have taken a 190 instead of a 51. Just because you cannot fly your favorite plane does not mean you are totally neutered.
Also, I would probably go after the Bish if the arena looked like you describe. At least against them they have less ability to put up a fight and to be in as many places in strength at once. Going after the Bish instead of the Knights I can also evade some of the potential for horde that the knights have.
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You have two conditions you fly under - either outnumbered, outbased, but with all planes - or outbased, with numbers, to some degree being ganged (enough that it has upset the southern exposure paradigm), and now penalized on plane selection.
I know you like quotes ...
If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere. ~Frank A. Clark
If you want to forget all your other troubles, wear too tight shoes. ~The Houghton Line, November 1965
Not trying to minimize your concerns ... just adding a little levity and humor.
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Dok,
I have been hesitant to reply to you in these threads because you seem to be a celebrity in the community but I wanted to add one more piece of history that Slapshot has not added yet.
When the Rooks were in the hole the Bish had the overwhelming numbers with the Knights in usually distant second. Over time, and I am not sure what the fulcrum event was, the Rooks started to fight pretty well even though they were outnumbered and even got a few resets. Fast forward to near-today and the Rooks have numbers and the Bish seem to be in the hole.
My supposition that a lot of the people migrated from Bish to Rook when the Rooks started doing better and that as the Rooks started winning more and more the process excelerated. This is the only way I can explain such a sudden shift in who has numbers. I also know that a LOT of game players will do anything to see their names in lights so this fits with what I have seen in all kinds of different games.
The situation we have now I do think you are at least partially correct about. There is artifical tendency to smack on the Rooks. This is because not only did the rooks enjoy a numerical advantage for a long time that allowed them to consistently "win" but also because some rooks were posting trash talk about their ability to win because they are "uber" on the boards further raising the animosity towards themselves not that that advantage is erased.
Slapshots advice about alternative plane suggestions though I do still think holds merit though. I have had to do it many times myself and life continues and I have fun. As a knight now that the ENY limit is in and we seem to have the numerical advantage more often we are just as effected as the Rooks. Yet, somehow, as mentioned earlier in this thread the Knights have been able to buck the usual trend for the current map and actually gain ground.
One final question I have been wondering about, and I do not mean to imply anything at all, but why is it that when you returned to flying and came to AH did you decide to join Rooks even though at the time the boards were overflowing with "balance the numbers" threads?
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"Insanity is the exception in individuals. In groups, parties, people, and times, it is the rule."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
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Originally posted by Bubbaj6
...
One final question I have been wondering about, and I do not mean to imply anything at all, but why is it that when you returned to flying and came to AH did you decide to join Rooks even though at the time the boards were overflowing with "balance the numbers" threads?
Oh ... that's easy ... I'm on a mailing list with a bunch of old-timer AW/WB/AH'ers ... their squad just happens to be Rooks. I really didn't explore the BBS much beyond Ye Olde Vosse Threade until weeks after I started playing again.
As for plane choices ... I agree ... I prefer the La-5 to the -7, the 190A-5 to the D-9 (though when Pyro re-does the A-8 I'm sure I'll upgrade), the F4U-1 to the -1D, and the P-51B to the D. Often I'll take the more uber ride mainly because I want the get-away speed due to the rampant gangbangery in the MA. I usually fly 3 or 4 different planes in a night.
But for less experienced players, taking away a technical advantage - even if only a perceived one - makes a difference.
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Your points make a lot of sense and fill in some of the blanks as far as history goes.
This is another thing that I don't understand. You self-imposed exile from the game. When you announced that, I was extremely disappointed, due to the fact that you based your decision (from what I read) on not enough facts ("blanks") and real understanding of what really was transpiring.
I would have thought that someone of your stature and knowledge would have better served the Rooks as an active player and leader. I know you flew with anonimity for your own reasons, but had you flown or if you fly as DokGonzo, I am sure that the Rooks would rally around you and results would be positive.
Not trying to lay all the responsibilty of the Rooks on you, but I was, and still am surprised at your reaction and exile.
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DoKGonZo,
I didn't put any words in your mouth. I made a prediction based on your current whining.
You have roughly even numbers and are whining incessantly on the BB about how unfair it is to the Rooks.
The Knights in the situation I described had half the number of players as the Rooks and well below the Bish every single night I logged on. We were crammed down into a few bases that were perpetually capped.
Now, based on your persistant whining now, I can only imagine how much worse it would have been had you been a Knight at that time. I highly doubt you would have been content to just take it as you seem to be insinuating we should. I'll bet you would have been complaining loudly and frequently on the BB and demanding that HTC do something.
So far as I can tell, you're only complaining now because you're a Rook and your toy has been taken away.
Maybe I'm wrong in this, but after being crushed repeatedly and consistantly over an extended period of time by Rooks who were insulting and arrogant in their responses to the problem I am not very charitable towards Rook based whines of unfairness.
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Originally posted by Karnak
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So far as I can tell, you're only complaining now because you're a Rook and your toy has been taken away.
...
Then you aren't paying attention.
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Has it EVER occured to ANYONE that the so called "gangbangs" that take place when the are down to 15 or 20 bases is the result of the reset race?? In my experience, it seems like as soon as 1 team is on the ropes, the other 2 smell blood and go for the coup-de-grace... after all, they do want to be the victors right?? Don't you?? A natural evolution that is par for the course in this type of enviroment. As far as ENY goes... wouldn't make a difference. A dog pack mentality means that only the strong survive... and if ur weak in the MA, regardless of who u are, your gonna die.