Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bloom25 on December 04, 2000, 06:10:00 PM
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Please determine if what is shown in27loops.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/27loops.ahf) and loops.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/loops.ahf) is possible.
You guys make the best online sim, I'm sure if this is incorrect you will fix it. Thanks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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While you're at it, check the P-47. It can do loops too!
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Yes, but can it do 27 loops as soon as the wheels leave the ground? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Bloom,
Please check the other thread you started about the same thing. I duplicated it with multiple planes. The niki isn't out of whack compared to several other planes including the 109 and 190A5. Heck I even did it with the tiffie, sloppy but it could be done.
Mav
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You are right Maverick; I guess the n1k is not the only plane here that can do it. I guess we need someone to now answer if this is possible for the actual planes that can accomplish continuous 4g loops in these tests.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Check Wells' reply in the other thread.
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Well at the airshow in Texas I saw some planes do some amazing things right off the runway...loops, rolls, inverted, etc. It was way cool. I saw a bi-plane take off and go vertical in less than 20 feet!! It's true and then it continued to climb straight up to 2,500 ft! And it was still right over the middle of the runway!!! IT's TRUE!!! I have it on video.....oh yeah...ummm...did I mention that it had a Leer Jet engine strapped to it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif) It was the funniest and most cool and amazing thing I've ever seen/heard on an airplane. It was definately overmodled! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Maverick:
Bloom,
Please check the other thread you started about the same thing. I duplicated it with multiple planes. The niki isn't out of whack compared to several other planes including the 109 and 190A5. Heck I even did it with the tiffie, sloppy but it could be done.
Mav
And ? what you say is that the whole FM is screwed, as a whole. Nikis are the most benefitted planes, closely followed by the Spitfires. If all those planes can do it, sorry but the FM has a problem.
"heck,I ever did it with the tiffie"
Only by reading this I know the 1.04 FM has a serious trouble, and not related to the high E-keeping of the planes.
A tiffie doing a loop just after a takeoff??? LOL!!!!!!! Thats plain ridiculous.!
In real life, a tiffie whould play the helicopter trying to do "that" (if it doesnt crash into the right side hangars of the airfield on the takeoff, I mean (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) )
The lack of torque is another BS thing in the new FM.
Jigster...I paste here my answer to wells in the other thread:
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Originally posted by wells:
A plane will gain e if it is flying below it's maximum sustained turning speed, no matter how much you pull on the stick
A plane that is pulling a 5G turn and still gains E...Nikis have afterburner?
I guess you are kidding wells, I am currently flying falcon4 (RP4), and let me assure you, at 170mph and 5G turn, and with A DAMNED AFTERBURNER in my tail, if I keep pulling I DONT ACCELERATE!
And nikis can do it?! ROFLOL!...roadkill, I say.
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Sorry, but wells statement is simply not right. IF you keep pulling 5G at 150mph in a n1k2 you MUST keep burning speed until you crash.
BTW didnt nikis had laminar flow wings like those in the P51?...didnt those wings bleed more E at low speed hi G maneouvers????
why arent those wings' hi-G drag modelled?...
why aren't N1K2's combat flaps' drag modelled, but their lift yes?
sorry, I say roadkill on all this.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-05-2000).]
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Never mind
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 12-05-2000).]
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Originally posted by funked:
N1K2 in AH does not accelerate in a 5g level turn. It can only sustain a level turn of about 2.8g with WEP and full tanks.
Sure. Watch those films.
maybe it doest accelerate but INDEED builds E. Can you tell me how a plane doing a 5G loop CLIMBS A BIT in each loop it does, funked?
I'd love to know it.
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RAM, pupil, go back to school and write one hundred times on the blackboard this new theory: "The Niki's FM does not need any tuning becouse almost all other FM's need tuning".
The BBS cops will catch you, I tell you.
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Gatt
4° Stormo Caccia - Knights (http://www.4stormo.it)
Macchi C.202's sting (1,9MByte film) (http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/breda.avi)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ram....
AH is a product that most of us are grateful to be a part of. We are involved in a work in progress, and anyone with any sense at all knows that it is not perfect.
You sir, are a malcontent...bent on whining and squeaking about our sim...note I said OUR sim...you chose to go fly other sims...I wish you would go frequent other boards and leave us alone as well. I'm tired of you popping in here and showing your prettythang to everyone just to get some attention.
Unfortunately, I know thats not going to happen. Also, I know that you would'nt apologize for your lousy attitude either, so....I make this post just to get this off my chest. I assure you, I will not revisit this thread due to the fact that you most certainly will fill it with more crap instead of realizing your attitude is negative and condemning.
This sim was built and is flown by those who wish to have FUN....can you understqand that RAM?.It wasn't built to be perfect or RL accurate. If HTC were to model realism, they would go broke.
I'm sorry to the rest of you for going off like this, but I'm just sick of this kind of destructive and unnecessary crap and I wish it would stop.
Ice
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NOw sir let me put one thing clear.
I respect HTC the outmost. I respect their work the outmost. I dont hit their work, WILL NEVER DO IT!, as I love what they have done.
BUT!!!...I DON'T respect those who slammed, insulted, called me whiner, etc etc etc each time I said that N1K2 FM had a serious trouble. And now I DO take my part of the fun.
I, sir, was right in my apreciation of the problem. Take a look back into the first 1.04 posts and see where I said that for me the planes turned too much and kept E too much. Look what things I was called.
Take a look back were I said that the N1K2 was an ufo. Look what things I was called.
Take a look back and see that, basically, us the "whiners" were right.
Dont mess with AH as a sim here. I love this sim and I do like their developers. I'm not slamming them.
Clear? great.
[edit]and I come here because since yesterday I am back in the MA. Clear? great[/edit]
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-05-2000).]
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Ram,
I didn't do this and determine that your opinion about the niki was right. I did it to check and see if any other planes could do it. They can. That means the niki is not out of line with the other planes here in this GAME. It also means the niki is not the uber wonder plane you seem to think it is. It shares maneuverability options that other planes in the same game have. I have been able to kill players flying it while I was flying a yak and spit9.
As far as I am concerned it isn't bulletproof, super speedy, super maneuverable or a wonder weapon. (especially in MY hands!) It is a nice late war plane that happens to have 4 cannon. Those cannon are what make it so damn deadly in the game. That happens to be reasonable as cannon have more destructive power than do light and even heavy machine guns.
I don't think the FM is porked either as far as E retention is concerned. Planes simply do not fall out of the sky because a turn is initiated. As far as I am concerned V1.04 is an improvement over 1.03. It ain't perfect but them this IS a game and not RL. I think there is room for improvement but I am more concerned with ramping up the power of the 50's more than the turning ability of the niki.
Perhaps HTC missed a bet by not just making a game about WW1 planes. Then there would be no concern about 20mm's, just about 1 vs 2 30 cals and the turning ability of the Dr1.
Mav
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itīs not a sustained 5G loop, isnīt it?
what is the g-load at the top?
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Niklas it was 1.5 g at top, 4.5 g at bottom.
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Maverick...
If all those planes can do "that" just after takeoff, the FM is somehow screwed. 27 loops after the takeoff and keep on building Energy? come on!!!!! open your eyes,this thing is WRONG!
And anyway, if the E-keeping is not wrong (thing that I think it is, indeed), the torque modelling is completely gone. A typhoon BARELY could take off in controlled flight!!! they smashed against right side hangars of the fields!!!!
and you DO a loop just after takeoff?? COME ON!!! it IS screwed! and BIGTIME.
I said it quite more than one or two times, the niki BS moves are, partly because they retain E too well, and partly because there is no torque in their low speed moves.
Now, can we agree that torque modelling is completely screwed?...answer this please.
It is-so it needs a fix. Please, HTC, fix it.
About e-retaining. you **REALLY** think that a WWII 4-ton fighter could take off, and start doing 27 consecutive loopings CLIMBING while it did it?...please answer...YES or NO?.
I dont think so, so I believe it needs a fix, maybe not the niki alone, maybe the WHOLE FM. Indeed not a thing I like to happen (means a lot of work to be done and maybe delaying new planes), but if this FM allows a Fw190A8 to do a loop just after takeoff, then sorry, but THIS THING IS SCREWED. And so needs a fix.
Anyway you can (i dont see how, but you can) disagree on the e-retaining thing.
But noone in his senses would say that the torque model is right in this moment.
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RAM,
They don't do it just after takeoff.
If they did it just after take off they'd have a starting speed of about 100mph. Instead they hold it on the runway until speed has reached 170mph. That isn't a normal takeoff. It is flying while holding the wheels on the ground and only calling it a takeoff when you pull back on the stick.
If you can loop a N1K2 from a starting speed of 100mph, please film it and show it to us.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Karnak, 170mph?...a 190A8?...a typhoon?...a loop...A COMPLETE LOOP?...
Karnak, to keep a tight loop, for one...two...three...four...[...]twentyfive...twentysix...twen tyseven times????...WINNING energy while doing?! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
nah...its hopeless (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) its in front of your noses and you can't see it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
The weirdest thing I've ever seen in AH was that yawing rudder loop that someone filmed when 1.04 was released, and was fixed quite fast...I hope that this film means that this thing is about to be fixed.
(<sigh>...27 loops, winning altitude and they insist it is right... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Well, at least noone has said -yet- that the torque modelling is right on target (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) )
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-05-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
blah blah jibberish jibberish blah <waaaaah!> jibberish blah jibberish blah LOL! blah jibberish blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! jibberish blah blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! jibberish blah blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish jibberish blah <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish jibberish blah blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! jibberish blah blah blah blah jibberish blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish jibberish blah <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah jibberish blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blahjibberish blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah jibberish blah blah blah blah blah jibberish jibberish blah <waaaaah!> jibberish blah LOL! blah blah blah blah blah jibberish
er, what?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 12-05-2000).]
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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HB..
Couldnt have done it better myself.
There is a big differance between Constructive opinion and Destructive opinion. RAM allways seems to dribble Destructive opinion. I think he will be happier in a sim like AW3 that im sure he thinks is perfect FM, Damage Modeling, Balistics Modeling and Whiner Modeling.
Dog out...
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Funny, last night i noticed something while flying H2H. The FM is great and IMO none of the planes are Uber or porked. We are flying them out of their element of which each plane was designed for. Tell me a TbF is gonna survive in the MA? I don't thing so, how about a stuka? nope. In the terrain i set up, each plane FM seam to have a greater seperation from each other, and "seamed" a truer FM for each indiviual plane.
NUTTZ
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RAM,
I'm not saying its correct or incorrect. I don't know about that and I don't have the info required to talk about that.
I was simply pointing out that you are distorting the issue by exagerating what is happening and using other time honored methods to flood disinformation into a debate in order to achieve your desired result.
This needs to be discussed in a rational manner. Not by shouting disbelief anc scorn at eachother.
Sisu
-Karnak
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(http://heathblair.tripod.com/flamer.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 12-05-2000).]
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Your Moma not tell you that youll go blind using that computer so much.
(http://www.concentric.net/~kut1/mouse.gif)
RAM, back away from the computer now!!
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Oh gawd!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Wish I'd had the film rolling, but I dinnae.. oh well
While flying an F4U I blew past an N1K with another kite 1.2k back and slowly opening, in a shallow dive. It was a front quarter merge, and at about 400yds the N1K stood on it's left wing and reefed around to follow me. While he's turning I use a little left aileron and rudder to alter my heading by about 10degrees to the left so I can watch the N1K and the other bandit (spit I believe) on the same side of the cockpit. Watching the N1K complete his turn, his nose is about 20degrees off at a range of ~650-700yds.
Then the damnedest thing happens. The range marker starts DESCREASING instead of increasing as it should've kept doing. I was touching 450mph or so, in a shallow dive, with only the slightest of turns. This N1K reefs around in a hard turn (stood on his wing at my 11oc, range about 400-450yds) and pulls to follow. I get him 700yds back of me, which with net lag is probably around 500 on his FE, and then he closes on me, to 500yds where he gets half my left wing, before the range finally starts opening, but verra slowly.
Thank goodness he wasn't a good shot or I'd have been dead.
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Roflmao!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
ok a little off topic here.. where are you guys getting all the animated smilies and such.
I HAVE GOT TO HAVE THEM!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Bane
13th TAS
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http://smilecwm.tripod.com/scorchio/index.htm (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/scorchio/index.htm)
There ya go BaneX.
-SW
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Originally posted by Wardog:
HB..
I think he will be happier in a sim like AW3 that im sure he thinks is perfect FM, Damage Modeling, Balistics Modeling and Whiner Modeling.
Dog out...
- whiner modeling! i like that - it's like whole new science to argue over with it's own set of predictable outcomes. hmmmm....i think you are onto something wd (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Karnak:
I was simply pointing out that you are distorting the issue by exagerating what is happening and using other time honored methods to flood disinformation into a debate in order to achieve your desired result.
Excuse me, tell me how.
Where did I exagerate?...quote any message in this forum or the ones in the Aircraft and vehicles forum regarding the FM thing.
Please I challenge you to do it. You have a film on a niki doing 27 loops consecutive, just airborne, and winning altitude.
You have maverick saying that he has done a loop with a just airborne typhoon.
I point that both things are roadkill.
Where am I exagerating?...
for Hblair and wardog...you aren't worth one single second of my life. So I wont waste it on paying attention to your insults.
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RAM,
The specific exaggeration (it could be considered more of a "misinformation" thing than an exaggeration) is the "just after airborne" claim.
This implies that it does loops immediately after a normal take off (I don't know, it might, but these tests here were done in different circumstances). That statement doesn't acknowledge that the aircraft was held on the ground until it had reached a speed of 170mph. This is not a normal takeoff speed for a prop driven WWII fighter. A WWII prop driven fighter would normally take off at just over 100mph. By holding it on the ground until the aircraft reached 170mph they rendered the take off point moot. It isn't really a take off anymore. It is effectively flying at 5ft above the ground until it reaches and airspeed of 170mph.
I don't have the technical information to discuss whether or not these aircraft could loop from 170mph and then keep looping, gaining altitude while they do it. Because of that, I want to reinforce that I am not entering this debate on the pro-loop or anti-loop side. I just want the test to be discussed as what it was. It was not a loop done just after take off and so that should not be used as an argument.
1000th POST!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
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RAM..
For $10.00 a month you can go play AW3, at least there you can justify 2500 negitive post about it FM and everything else.
Think youll be happier there!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/ut2/Instagib.gif)
Dog out......
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J.E. Johnson has an anecdote in his book about consecutive loops in a spitfire... Seems that the plane tended to stall and spin out of the third consecutive loop. 27 consecutive loops while building energy is unrealistic for most planes in AH, however since most AH planes can perform this feat, it's not exactly unfair.
If you want something to gripe about, check out the glide performance for various planes. For example, a P-47 seems to be able to glide farther than a spitfire, even though the spit has lower wing loading and a slightly more efficient wing shape (the elliptical wing is highly efficient). This seems to indicate to me that the static drag of the spit might be a tad high, while the induced drag seems to be a little low. Horsepower is likely increased as well to make top speed and climb rate numbers match up too.
Either that, or the windmilling prop drag numbers are a tad high with this spit. I haven't tried messing with prop pitch while gliding because I'm out of keys and the keymapper won't let me use shift or ctrl modifiers for prop rpm (bug? The shift, ctrl, and alt keys just disappear when I select rpm function)
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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Originally posted by eagl:
J.E. Johnson has an anecdote in his book about consecutive loops in a spitfire... Seems that the plane tended to stall and spin out of the third consecutive loop. 27 consecutive loops while building energy is unrealistic for most planes in AH, however since most AH planes can perform this feat, it's not exactly unfair.
who is talking about fairness here?...I am talking that those planes COULDNT do that!, then there is something wrong in the FM that allows them to do it...torque is way undermodelled and E-keeping too good.
So, now that every plane is porked, its fair? was it fair in 1.03 when all planes couldnt turn?...
fix it, please.
Karnak...lol, ok, the entry was at 170mph, but it was a just airborne plane, a 170mph plane doing 27 consecutive loops while gaining E...
It's not an exageration, its BS...
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I just loaded up an N1K2 with 50% gas and took off at 110MPH, flew level along the runway until I hit 170MPH then went into a loop. I managed 3 before I ran into the ground.. using the same stick force throughout the 3 loops. At the apex of the loop I barely managed 100MPH, and at the bottom it gained speed up to 200MPH. An object that climbs to a higher alt than it started and falls down with powered flight is certain to gain more speed than it started off with.
-SW
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the test was done with 25% fuel
and if you dont believe the 27 loop thing, take a look at the film.
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(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/scorchio/saevilw.gif)
heh heh....just testing the smiley link. sorry to intrude.
[This message has been edited by sling322 (edited 12-05-2000).]
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I hate to bring this thread to the top, but my imput...
RAM, first off let me appologize for my quick tempered outburst to you in a past thread.
You, maybe correct that the torque modeling and the E retention maybe not be right on the money, But i think your missing the big picture. (I can't speak for HTC so this is MY Interpretation) AH is IMO the closest to real flight models of any WW2 flight sym i've played. Notice the word CLOSEST, If you model these planes to the way they flew IRL, I doubt HTC could fill the arena, I for one KNOW I could never IRL fly ANY WW2 fighter. HTC needs to balance the FM with FUN. I think you would, as many others would like to see a real FM true to these planes, But others want fun without all the hassels of learning to be a real life WW2 fighter jock, understanding OIL temp,hydrolics,gunnery,and all the learning that goes with it. The "slider bar" of FUN and filling the arenas and TRUE FM, HAS to have a happy medium. Slide it to far to FUN, and it becomes arcadish,, slide it too far to true FM's and is not fun and there goes the paying customer. You...are one that wants to see the True FM, that is YOUR preference. I for one like to see a 'Close" FM but retaining the "fun factor" IMO 1.04 has the perfect mix, I'm not saying some things don't need adjustment, but for where it is right now, I LOVE IT!
NUTTZ
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Originally posted by NUTTZ:
But i think your missing the big picture. (I can't speak for HTC so this is MY Interpretation) AH is IMO the closest to real flight models of any WW2 flight sym i've played. Notice the word CLOSEST
I hate to say this. BUt I can take pre-1.04 posts by lazs and F4UDOA that got answers just like that-and then resulted that 1.03 FM was way wrong.
Sorry, but I dont think that the FM now is close to real life. And not by far.
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This is getting old, fast!
Air Warrior (AW_DOS,AW4W,AW2,AW3) 1986 to 2000. 16 years this has been online and RAM, guess what.. There still working on FM, Damage Modeling, Ballistics Modeling.
Warbirds 94/95 to 2000 6 years and there still working on FM,Damage Modeling, Ballistics Modeling.
Aces High 99 to 2000 1 year. Give the guys here a break and let them get on with there work, They will get around to checking the FMs with available data. But they have a massive amount of work to do.
RAM, why do you think that AH will be perfect out the gate and only after 1 year? If you can do better then please do. Consistantly whining about the same thing over and over again will get you nothing but bad reviews from the rest of the community.
Let HT and crew get there work done in there own priority, you whining will not change there priority.
Dog out.........
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Wardog it sounds like you too admit theres something weird in Nikis FM?
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Originally posted by Wardog:
RAM, why do you think that AH will be perfect out the gate and only after 1 year? If you can do better then please do. Consistantly whining about the same thing over and over again will get you nothing but bad reviews from the rest of the community.
.
As the first semi-decent post from you in this thread I will take the time to answer you.
I dont say AH has to be perfect. But if a defect is SO clearly pointed out as it is now with the FM and the torque thing I point at it and say "please fix it"
Note I always said "HTC PLEASE fix it"
Note again the "please", if you didnt note it yet.
On another matter, to point out problems is NOT A whine. To say "after what I saw I think that..." is NOT a whine. To know that things are porked you DONT need a film. The niki in 1.04 FM does things that people simply see astonished, and noone needs a film to back that up.
If everyone would stay still and say "yes" to everything we see in MA then there would be no development nor bug fixing. If it wasnt for Lazs, F4UDOA and all those guys who came here and said that the emperor was nude everyone would still be here saying "the emperor is dressed, what a beautiful dress the emperor wears!"...including me.
I learned a lot from that, seems that few people more learned that AH is NOT the apex and the most perfect thing in the world, and that pointing out problems and bugs, and FM things, is NOT to be destructive.
In fact, and in my own opinion I think I am doing a lot for AH in my way. People here call me destructive, while what I want are things to be corrected. SO,then, I love to be "destructive".
There is a bug, and I point it out.
Still you call that "to whine". curious dicctionary you have, wardog (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
BTW you are implicitly admitting AH's FM has a problem.That's Good.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-05-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
I hate to say this. BUt I can take pre-1.04 posts by lazs and F4UDOA that got answers just like that-and then resulted that 1.03 FM was way wrong.
Sorry, but I dont think that the FM now is close to real life. And not by far.
I never said it was.. I said it's the closest of all the flight syms I've played.
I think if your looking for a "perfect" FM, you'll never find it online gaming. I think HTC needs to hit that "sweet spot" between FUN and a real FM to keep paying customers like myself, having fun and staying. And once again, IMO i think he hit it. I don't think this sym was designed around what RAM and the others that want to see a "perfect" FM. I know your looking for a flight Sym that is perfect in every sense of the word, and i wish you luck in finding it.
NUTTZ
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Well, Nutz, I love AH because it pretends to be the most realistic sim out there, and I think that most people here love realism over quake-ish FMs. Am I wrong?.
I don't think so.
Anyway you are right in one thing, we will never have a FM just as the one in the RL. Sad as it is, it wont never happen ,because we dont know how did those birds handle in real life.
But for sure that NO ww2 fighter was able to take off, accelerate to 170mph and do 27 consecutive tight loops while winning altitude. I'm sure as the hell of that.
And if we are going to have a realistic FM, we need to fix that, don't we?.
And that's my point.
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I have never said there is or is not a problem.
There are 237 posts on this BB about the N1K2s FM. There only needs to be 1 post. Pyro & HT do read this board and dont need to see 237 post about the same damn thing. It was said once, thats enough.
The reason i dont squeak about any of the planes FMs is because i adjust, adapt and overcome. Change your flying style to adjust to FM changes. After flying online for 11 years and going though 100s of patches, updates i have adjusted to each accordingly.
When HT has the time to compare the Planes FM with real data, then changes will be made, in there own priority.
As i have never flown any WWII aircraft, ill go by the available data that HT can find on the planes we have in AH.
But i will never quit AH because i thought there might be something wrong with the FM, id rather adjust and let this sim progress as HT sees fit.
Dog out...
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The high E-burning in the turns was discussed dozens, maybe hundreds of times since beta until 1.03 when HTC admited there was something screwed.
If it wasnt for that continuous claim that the E-burning in the turns was so high, we'd never seen the 1.04 FM and we'd still be in the 1.03Fm saying "this is the closest we can be to reality".
Again I learned a lot about that. seems that not many people learned too. The problem must be talked all the times neccesary until it is fixed. Not only once.
IMO, of course.
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What you seem to be missing RAM is that HTC isn't looking to hear the loudest or most frequent whines, gripes, complaints excetera. They are, on the other hand, very open to hearing questions about things that might be off, particularly when backed up by data. People have, in the not so distant past, presented them with data about an aircraft that conflicted with what was in AH, and it was changed...this includes the flight modelling in 1.03...it wasn't just constant squeaking about it that got it changed.
Bloom saw something that he thought was off about the Niki, tested it for himself, filmed it, and posted it with a "hey, take a look, this can't be right, can it?"
On the contrary, a post that says "I just got killed by a squealing ufo niki that buzzed 360s sideways around my plane with fireballs shooting out of it's prettythang and it blew off half of my plane with one ping and it's squealing bulls@#$" or "<player name> was flying a typhoon and shot me with his cheating rearward facing guns because he is a big cheater" are posts that aren't likely to get a positive reaction.
See what I mean? OK, probably not, but it felt good to type it anyhow.
SOB
Flys a Niki now, will fly it when it gets more ammo, will probably fly it if/when the flight model is changed.
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Good GOD! What happened to my thread?!? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I was just messing around offline because I wanted to see what the n1k could and could not do. When I found out it could do this, I decided to post the film and see if this is possible for any WWII fighter. I didn't think it was, and I posted such in the thread. My intention wasn't to start yet another FM whine, but it looks like I failed miserably. Now I'm sorry I ever posted the thing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Maverick found out other planes could do this as well. What I wanted to know, I'm afraid to ask now, is if this should be possible. Now somewhere earlier in this thread I read that the spitfire could do 3 consecutive loops. GREAT, this is the information I was looking for. Aside from some funny smilies, this thread went far beyond what I think it should have.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Ram,
A couple points.
1. This is a game. It isn't a recreation of WW2 combat. It is a game based on WW2 combat. No PC now out will ever be able to accurately model flight dynamics in the real world especially in a combat type game.
2. Your contention about v1.04 being farther from "reality" than 1.03 is wrong. Sorry but you are wrong here. If you do not like the Fm that is one thing but the current version with it's emphasis on planes keeping E is far closer to real flying than the 1 turn stall 1.03 version.
No I do not fly WW2 fighters, nor have I been in in air to air combat. I do own and fly a real plane in the real world however. I think that puts me in a better perspective to see an attempt to model half way "normal" flight dynamics into a game than a non pilot.
No I do not do a loop soon after takeoff. My Comanche is not rated for aerobatics and neither am I. I also am not suicidal which ANYONE flying a WW2 fighter and looping after take off would have to be. Here you auger and show up in the tower. In the real world you go to the morgue.
Final point. Just let it go buddy. IT AIN'T A BIG DEAL!!!!!!! It's a GAME.
Mav
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Originally posted by Maverick:
2. Your contention about v1.04 being farther from "reality" than 1.03 is wrong. Sorry but you are wrong here. If you do not like the Fm that is one thing but the current version with it's emphasis on planes keeping E is far closer to real flying than the 1 turn stall 1.03 version.
Hummm, I didnt say that the 1.03fm was closer to reality, I said that I never saw the BS moves I see some planes do now in the previous FM, thats all.
I agree that they burned too much E, but for sure they didnt do such incredible things as N1k2s do all day long here.
And, in 1.03 there WAS a decent torque model, that now is gone.
Other than that I agree with you in everything else. This is a game and I want this game to be the best. Maybe in a passionate way, but I DO want the best for AH.
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I dont understand so much noise and talk about this thing.
I saw the film and found it amazing, but if I am told that real planes could do that I will have to agree, as I dont know enough about the matter.
I say: if it needs a fix, then it must be fixed. If it doesnt, then it must be left as it is.
But I dont see the point in making a 50 post thread, with personal attacks, and repeated statements about the same thing. It's senseless.
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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/luke3.gif)
(http://www.navegalia.com/hosting/000e0/illumm/p51.gif)
[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 12-05-2000).]
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Didn't RAM leave AH?
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I wonder if the ones who attacked Blooms post like the quaking quakabilities to the quakefest of quakedom that this game is now.
I hope for a historical arena to lock out the quake planes WHINER me a Whiner Quake on...
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Man Pollock, you sound really upset about this Quakish stuff. Try a little therapy and relaxation, it can do wonders! Now, go out and purchase a copy of Quake III, and take it home. Once you get home, get a big fat red marker, and right Aces High all over it. Now, grab a hammer from your toolbox, and head out to your driveway. Set the box down, and have at it...pound all your aggressions out on the box with that hammer. Now, after you've worked all that out, head back indoors, grab a nice lemonaid, and turn on the television. If you can, try and find a nice episode of say, Little House on the Prarie...just make sure it's one of the happy-go-lucky episodes - not one of the lost crops or one where Mrs Oleson is being especially nasty. Just sit there, sipping your lemonaid, watching that soothing happy-go-lucky episode of Little House, and let all your worries slip away.
SOB
...man, I knew that Jack Daniels smelt kinda funny!
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On the 'realism-v-game' question, I thought I'd include a few comments from some on this board over the past few months.
I often wonder if the authors of these posts still feel this way. Sometimes I really doubt it!
Ok..
After 10 years of online flying, AW-DOS,WB and AH. AH by far has the more realistic FM, Damage modeling ive had the pleasure of flying. Right from the start, everyone knew it would be a steep learnig curve.To my surprise, it wasnt that hard to pickup on. Very close to the FM in WB..
Ive flown WB for 5 years,so i may have had a start on AH that others didnt.
It just takes time. Thats all.Allthough i do have 1 question for you. Did you fly WB in RR Mode? As i found out may have been. So this will make AH a steep learning curve for you.
FA is a friggin GAME!!!! AH is a friggin Sim!!!!!!
It ain't amatuer hour airplanes...
Sure it's tuff.. but if playing a guitar wuz easy ther'ed be a half a million jimmi hendrix's.
Stick it out.. the satisfaction gleened from flying a reality based FM will pay back in dividends... the first time you shoot me down.. .
You don't ask for a more realistic FM, just a more 'fast and furious' one. That's fine too, but many of us came here specifically because the WB FM was getting stale. The Turn-4-Ever(tm) e-retention lead to some ridiculous furballs. I started playing AH as soon as the beta was released, and it took quite some time to get comfortable. Every time I went back to play WB, the WB FM struck more and more game-like.
I hunderstand ur feeling, but as far as I'm concerned, my fun comes from this sim being realistic and hard to master. I don't realy like 'faster' sims.
Here keeping your energy and couple of tricks are the key, having to control ur impulses during the whole dogfight is my challenge and source of delectation.
WWII planes were not light and they were not something you could just throw around the sky. Watch the WWII iron at any airshow and if they are doing aerobatics they will be big and smooth. You just can't make comparisons between a 51 or a Jug and a Cessna.
These planes were not easy to fly. In the "sims" people expect to be able to hop in and go fly (let alone fight) with little or no actual stick time. Do that in a real warbird and you are dead. Hell, do it in a Cessna and odds are you die. If you are lucky you'll get airborne... but land? I would bet against it.
The planes were hard to fly and hard to master but once you climb that curve you are one to be feared.
I say keep the difficulty where it is. So what if it takes a few attempts to finally take off and so what if the newbies don't win a dogfight because they can twitch faster but don't really appreciate the FM.
Dumb the sim down and it will be another Quake.
Not a flame at all. I just would like to see one online flight sim keep the realism level up and for God's sake, please, please no easy mode in the MA.
Names removed to protect the guilty (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-06-2000).]
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LOLOL SOB that was a good one !
Oh and RAM know "the final word" ? it must be something pretty important to you cause you allways seem to MUST have it.
DW6
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LOL jekyll, that was a kick on the ****s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Duckwing...no, happens that I use to be polite and answer the people talking to me.
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Ya to many people are schitzo about the sim vs game issue. One day its an sim, then the other day its an game.
One day AH is better then ANYTHING out there, then the other day people say : hey AH is young its only been around for 1 year or so, give it time.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Originally posted by RAM:
for Hblair and wardog...you aren't worth one single second of my life. So I wont waste it on paying attention to your insults.
RAM, it is very hard to take anything you have to say with any kind of seriousness. Just one month ago today you started your infamous thread killed in MA by a cheater Typhoon " (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/006344.html) on this bulletin board. A thread in which you ruined what shred of credibility you had left in a lot of peoples eyes. You made wild assed accusations based on nothing much. Flight simm vets of 10 years tried to explain to you what happened, but NO!, you knew for sure it was nothing but cheating, hacking, cheating. I mean pyro even tried to explain to you what probably happened. I've seen the same the same damn thing myself, its called net lag but nobody could tell RAM anything. Then you give us the "cya, gone" thread. You're outa here!
Then, a few weeks later, here ya are again. No explanation, nothing. We're all just supposed to act like nothing happened. Then you get in these threads with your long assed posts yammering on about this or that, nikkis, hawgs, the usual 20 posts per thread complete with your arrogant attitude. You give advice on what direction HTC should lead their business in, etc. That one really gets me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Are you not a student? maybe 20-22 yrs. old?
Where do you get the idea that you know so much more than the rest of us? When I was your age I realized that guys twice my age had a lil more experience in things, and I was careful to run my mouth around them unless I really knew what I was talking about. Guess that was just me though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sorry about your thread bloom.
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 12-06-2000).]
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"One day AH is better then ANYTHING out there, then the other day people say : hey AH is young its only been around for 1 year or so, give it time."
I look at it this way, it is the best thing out there and it's only been around for a year! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Does that mean there is no room for improvement or making it a higher fidelity, complex flight game allowing us to simulate WWII aircombat in simulated WWII aircraft? Hell no. Go look at the topics in the gameplay forumn.
Hblair, your post was pretty fair and 100% accurate.
. -Westy
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<RAM takes a look into Hblair's post, rolls eyes, and smiles>
whatever...
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ROFL! I vote yes on Hblair.
Edit: Ram, you aren't simply asking HTC to fix it. You are asking them to magically make the FM better this freaking instant.
You've posted 15 times in the two days since Bloom posted this thread here. All of those posts say the same thing. When do you expect HTC to examine and fix any problems that may or may not exist? Beyond that, would fixing this warrant delaying 1.05 by dropping it in its late development and switching man-hours to the FM right now? Or would it make more sense to finish up 1.05, get it out as a spiffy Christmas present to us, and make any potentially necessary FM changes a focus of v1.06?
Or maybe you are expecting an aknowledgement that there is a problem. Okay, how much time can you give Pyro to look over the film, his flight data, and perform his own tests to determine whether there is a problem or not? Yes, there were changes made and problems aknowledged based on players observations of the 1.03 flight model. But it took longer than TWO DAYS for it to happen.
Develop some patience and couth, Ram. Bloom posted his film and left it at that for HTC to do with what they will, which is great. Maverick posted his test results and left it at that for HTC to do with what they will, which is great. You could have posted your opinion once, and left it at that, and it would have been great. But you've gone on a spampage, posting the same thing 15 times over the past two days. That is why you are viewed as a whining malcontent.
Gordo
[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 12-06-2000).]
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Ram, I thought you left and said you'd not come back here.
Anyways whatsup? what are you doing other than AH.