Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ice on October 16, 2000, 11:48:00 AM
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The question is....
In a Co-alt Co-E hedon engagement at 10k, Pilot skill equal(no new pilot vs. veteran), should the 51D win this engagement, and if so how?
Just curious (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ice
[This message has been edited by Ice (edited 10-16-2000).]
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I would say probably not.
While the P-51 has the clear edge in speed and range, in a duel type meeting, the superior guns of the -1C will probably end the engagement with a snapshot at some point. If it was the -1D I would put it into the "tossup" category.
If I was piloting a P-51 in the arena and met a -1C in a coalt situation, I would turn into him and deny the HO. Then extend and grab altitude until I had the clear advantage.
Just my opinon tho (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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While the P-51 has the clear edge in speed and range.....
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Although the P51 has excellent range, I dont see how pertinent this is to the co-alt 1vs1 equation.
Speed! Now here is an interesting discussion.
I recently was at 22k+ and passed an oncoming F4U1C in a near head on. I was at maximum combat speed and did a minor 20 degree wingover then returned to level to spoil his possible shot. He did not shoot! Instead, the F4U pulled up and over and began a pursuit. I was over 2k away by the time he leveled off slightly above. Not normally worried in this situation, I stayed level and continued to my objective. Several seconds later I looked back and he was 1.2 This is where I made my usual CHog sigh and put my nose down 15 degrees. Soon I was creaking with speed stress and passing thru 15k. The F4U was at 1.1 I put the nose down and neared compression leveling off at 5k
The F4U was 900 out and spraying lead like a shotgun. I took a ping and the wing came off.
It doesnt matter who was in the Chog but speed isnt a good defence against the dweebiest ride in AH.
Yeager
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Hrmm... I could easily beat a co alt 1C in a 1v1 situation in P51. Use the P51s superior stall speed and zoom.
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(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/SturmJG3whitesofeyes.gif)
IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 "Udet"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 10-16-2000).]
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What is that supposed to mean? If you are using superior stall speed, how do you expect to "zoom" anywhere?
I would say at Co-alt/E states, it is a tough call on who would win (that is if the pilots truely were equal) If both manage their plane properly, it is just a matter of who's wingman shows up first. Otherwise, you could go at it all day until one ran out of fuel (that would be the Chog) or one made a mistake (Chog again, because choosing an F4-U over a P-51 is a mistake in itself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Midnight
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Originally posted by Ice:
The question is....
In a Co-alt Co-E hedon engagement at 10k, Pilot skill equal(no new pilot vs. veteran), should the 51D win this engagement, and if so how?
Just curious (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ice
[This message has been edited by Ice (edited 10-16-2000).]
In this situation the 51 would lose. The chog would open fire from D1.8 and get the kill from a HO.
Mav
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Originally posted by Yeager:
While the P-51 has the clear edge in speed and range.....
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Although the P51 has excellent range, I dont see how pertinent this is to the co-alt 1vs1 equation.
Speed! Now here is an interesting discussion.
I recently was at 22k+ and passed an oncoming F4U1C in a near head on. I was at maximum combat speed and did a minor 20 degree wingover then returned to level to spoil his possible shot. He did not shoot! Instead, the F4U pulled up and over and began a pursuit. I was over 2k away by the time he leveled off slightly above. Not normally worried in this situation, I stayed level and continued to my objective. Several seconds later I looked back and he was 1.2 This is where I made my usual CHog sigh and put my nose down 15 degrees. Soon I was creaking with speed stress and passing thru 15k. The F4U was at 1.1 I put the nose down and neared compression leveling off at 5k
The F4U was 900 out and spraying lead like a shotgun. I took a ping and the wing came off.
It doesnt matter who was in the Chog but speed isnt a good defence against the dweebiest ride in AH.
Yeager
Yada Yada Yada...got film? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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ZOOM ABOVE HIM AND STALL AFTER HE DOES! DUHH!! :P
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I dueled zigrat in A8 vs his 1C 2 times and I won both using the technique I described above... zoom and stall.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 10-16-2000).]
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Superior Range is a great thing. You drag the -1C around the arena like a kite, until he starts to worry about fuel and now the fight is yours. He can turn around and run to base (giving you the shot and position) or he can try to fight you and run out of gas. Even with the large fuel load of the Corsair, its a very thirsty beast compared to the Mustang.
Yeager, I gotta agree with Ripsnort. Got Film? The only way in the world for this to happen is if the P-51 is carrying 8 rockets, and two bombs/drop tanks, and the -1c is fuel light. Not only is the P51 appreciably faster, it also accelerates faster.
Nath, yes a superior pilot flying better tactics can beat the -1C as you describe, but if the pilots are of equal skill what you descibe becomes very dangerous due to the -1C's cannons.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Proposition! Put yer best F4U1C pilot up against me; for a 5 frame co-alt match. Name the alitude.
Wire the triggers in both planes. (no guns)
Fly for position. Who's gonna get to the saddle first?
Bets??
Now enable the guns. Fly that set again.
Whole new ballgame; ain't it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Nath my young youngster (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You are talking out of the wrong orifice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've seen some show their hineys' on this board before you, but never in such a bold manner.
At Co-E you would be dead pulling your zoom and stall...not only by an F4 but other planes offered in this sim as well.
Of course I know you will disagree (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thanks for your input...I did ask for it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ice
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Ice, my old fart friend. Did you run out of grandaddy diapers? :P
Would you like to duel me (51) vs your 1C so I may prove my point?
You don't seem to understand what tactic I'm referring to. Its not zooming straight up after merge but finessing the opponent with ropes.
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(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/SturmJG3whitesofeyes.gif)
IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 "Udet"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 10-16-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 10-16-2000).]
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yes nath11 did indeed beat me he in 190a8 me in f4u-1c,. I know how he did it now tho, i don't think he would rrouncce me so readily again, but he is definitely one of the best pilots in ah and not typical (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
anyways, fighting a 1c in a pony is stupid, run. The f4u turns better and rolls better. and has bigger guns. i fight them anyway cuz thats how i am, but everyone knows the f4u is supposed to and dues turn better than pony.
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hello all:
gee Verm, have you ever been in a p-51 or any other plane since the F-16 (F4Uc) came out.
the F-16 (F4Uc) needs to be looked at by HTC.
and as for what Yeager said, I dont need film to know it has happened. I have been in a p-47-30 and have had a F-16 (F4Uc) do the same thing, no I have no film. but the p-47-30 is suppose to be the best diving plane in this game, but yet a F-16 (F4Uc) can dive faster and pull out better then the P-47-30. please loose or fix the F-16 (F4Uc)
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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I fly ONLY the P-51 and have a lot of experience in combat with the F4UC. It is one plane that can actually catch and kill the P-51 when in Runstang Mode. I must qualify this however. If the P-51 sees the F4UC and has a co-alt/equal E and is 3.0 or greater he might get out if the Corsair is not obsessed with the chase. If the F4UC has any alt advantage and equal E he will not only cahse but catch a P-51. I have lost many a wing to a F4UC at 1.2 to 1.0 being chased. I beleive the Chog's guns in HO, snaps, or long range sprays give it a clear advantage with EQUAL skilled pilots. As for Nath-BDP's combat tip: This is too dangerous a move for pilots of equal ability and with the chog's gun avantage ...VERY FOOLISH. Experience tells me turn fighting and stall fighting the P-51 is not its strong point. Might work in a ladder dual 1v1 by a better pilot but that was not the original premise. Anyway, I think HTC should look at the F4UC and see what they think. The primary reason I stay HOT and HIGH is the F4UC!
This happens too often!
(http://www.13thtas.com/images/F4U.jpg)
Thunder
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Nath... my zit laden little buddy....it is you that misunderstood me...I fly only the 51 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The tactic you speak of will work on a less skilled pilot, not someone who would recognize what you were up to.
However, some in the arena can kill in anything...I'm just not one of them.
Cyas (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Ice (edited 10-16-2000).]
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I did beat a chog once in my P-51 from a co-e situation.
I drug him to a isolated spot close to my homeland. I rev'd into him when he was d2.4 my six. He was co-alt and chasing me. I was gaining, but very very slowly.
I counted 37 rev's in that fight, with the chog firing on about 1/4 of them. Wep was long gone and I was hitting the flaps hard, sometimes up to 3 notches, at the top of my turns. I fired only 3 times, the last time was the fatal one for the chog. We were nearly HO. I just got lucky and thats all.
The game for the P-51 fighting the chog, is not the same game for the chog fighting the P-51. The chog gets to hide behind its big bad guns, knowing that one good ping and its over.
Salute! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble
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Seems the overall questions regarding the chog are reaching a point that demands review. Without recapping my prior squeak(s) on FM the bottom line is simple.
The chog retains to much E, corners to well and zooms better than it should based on the flight data AH provides. A chog should never be able to rev on a pony at 10k and catch it. As for 1 vs 1 at that alt, in a climbing fight a chog should have ZERO chance, provided they started co-e. Now in a diving fight, the chog has the edge in all area's (personal opinion), but what decent stick would let a chog use its edge their. I agree that any climbing fight opens a legitimate possibility of a prop hanging hosing. However assuming the pony driver flys an energy fight with low G's and proper tactics he'll force the chog to run or fight from an alt disadvantage pretty easily....only it doesn't work that way any more...does it?
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(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/10-3-00.jpg)
I see no zits! Just a secksi 16 yr old.
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(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/SturmJG3whitesofeyes.gif)
IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 "Udet"
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No zits true, but get busy and clean that up. What a mess... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble
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Nath ; u Puppy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Glad yer havin fun. LOL
Mino. Yer right. It's a toss-up every time I tango with one. Will I get my shot before he gets his? How many E chips am I willing to cash to let him outta the box to take that shot?? And, will I live thru the shot he's gonna get on ME the next turn cause I spent that bit of 'e' and pulled lead into the corner to take a shot of my own?
Tuff one. I can keep 'em saddled up; turn with him and keep him in front of my 3-9 line for awile.. but if you preturn 'em for lead in any serious way when in guns range they can snap right up into a rolling scissors and slice you to ribbons. Blow out yer flaps; chop yer throttle, and sure; you can lag roll him for a bit; keep him in front for a few cuts, maybe; but he's gonna wind up back cutting on yer bellybutton by the third or fourth one, opening a lag scissors of his own and popin big huge chunks off yer bird on each reverse with the Hispanos.
So yah get two; tops maybe three short shot opportunitys at the first cross overs.. Thats it. And the .50's usually lack the punch in a snaphot needed to part out a Corsair..... and if he's stirrin at the crossovers to pork yer shot... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Oddly; I fear the Corsair even more than a Niki.. for some reason; I can turn against the George a bit better; and survive a few hits. They're a better gamble, just because of the slight reduction in hitting power; and fragile tails. Can't recall ever keepin the pony flyin after even one ping from an F4U1C. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
From this pony pilots perspective, both Niki's and F4u's seem to levitate.. and after killin a bazillion spits in the scissors moves I can say with no qualms at all; the F4U and the Niki are turnin better than Spits and Yaks at comparable E states.
FWIW. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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You are a cute kid nath....jus clean up that room man...stuff grows under that junk.
Cyas Up!
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109s eat F4U-C's for breakfast (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Well, at least the G10 does.
N1K's, now that's a different bird (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I'd imagine in a co alt co e headon, the P-51 would blow through, extend a good bit and either drag the F4U-C around or when the distance is great enough, reverse, and have higher e state when they meet again.
Or, in a 1v1 MA setting; drag him around for long enough to friendlies to chew him up. This seems to be the favoured tactic of the runstangs I meet 1v1.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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I'd imagine in a co alt co e headon, the P-51 would blow through, extend a good bit and either drag the F4U-C around or when the distance is great enough, reverse, and have higher e state when they meet again.
Or, in a 1v1 MA setting; drag him around for long enough to friendlies to chew him up. This seems to be the favoured tactic of the runstangs I meet 1v1.
Exactly Santa ! Why try to engage in a close in fight with a -1C when you know his guns will finish you in a single burst.
Fight to your strengths.
In my Yak, I take the fight vertical and if I'm not winning the angles after the first two loops (which I do about 80% of time), I unload and accelerate away. By the time he comes around and gets to my six, and accelerates to my speed I'm safe. Plus the Yak and -1C have approximately the same speed, so once I have that cushion, I'm safe.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Bleh thats not my apartment.