Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: 1K3 on October 08, 2004, 10:30:57 PM
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Was 190D-9 operational in late war against the Soviets on the east or just restricted to high-alt bomber/fighter intercepts on the west?
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From what I've read the Dora was operational on both fronts as both a bomber intercpetor and a High altitude fighter.
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the D9 was neither a bomber interceptor nor a "High Alt" fighter.
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but did it see operational service against soviet fighters that specialises lo-alt fights?
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1k3, yes most dogfights on the eastern front where taken place at Mid to low altitudes :D
And If the D-9 wasnt a bomber interceptor or high Alt fighter then what was it designed for?
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Hi Ontos,
>And If the D-9 wasnt a bomber interceptor or high Alt fighter then what was it designed for?
It was designed as a stopgap :-)
The engine was good for medium altitude only.
Since it had better performance than the Fw 190A-8, the D-9 was used as top cover for the A-8 bomber destroyers. That's probably how it got its "high-altitude" reputation.
As the D-9 was used as covering fighter, it was not used as bomber destroyer. Note that it was never (as far as I know) used with the extra wing-gun Rüstsätze that actually could have been fitted to the D-9 just as well as to the A-8.
Such extra wing guns only appear with the D-11/12/13 variants which feature the true high-altitude versions of the Jumo 213 engine. These fighters had enough power at altitude so that they didn't need to worry about the extra weight.
Of course, they were stopgaps, too, as Kurt Tank would have preferred to get the more advanced Ta 152, employing the same engines, into production. I believe the main reason this didn't work out were mass production concerns.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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DB603! Thats what Fw190 needed! And it could have entered into prodfuction in late 1942, giving the LW a 450mph 4000fpm climbing 3 cannon 2 MG armed fighter in service by the first half of 1943..
But the authorities did not allow FW to have that engine...
:eek:
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
DB603! Thats what Fw190 needed! And it could have entered into prodfuction in late 1942, giving the LW a 450mph 4000fpm climbing 3 cannon 2 MG armed fighter in service by the first half of 1943..
But the authorities did not allow FW to have that engine...
:eek:
Your killing yourself with this GH..let it go boy!
lol
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I went searching on the net and i found that most East front air dogfights in late war were 109G, 190A vs La-5/La-7, Yaks (am i right?) and seen quotes about them. How about the 109D? I cant seem find quotes from soviets about the 109D or am i not searching deep enough?
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Originally posted by Pongo
Your killing yourself with this GH..let it go boy!
lol
LOL :)
Maybe next I'll start looking at the Fw187 Falke debacle, this was basically a DeHavilland Hornet class plane by 1937, of course then the engines only made some 600hp - but is was 50mph faster than a Bf109 powered by the same Jumo engine... Basically the same as horet vs spitfire of the same power.. And it was faster with those 600hp engines than Bf110 was with 1100hp engines. I wonder what a Falke would have done with 1100hp DB601s in 1940.. Or with 1350hp DB601Es of Bf109F...
(http://www.luftarchiv.de/flugzeuge/focke-wulf/fw187.jpg)
:eek:
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Yes the Dora was used on the Eastern Front. In fact the VVS captured a number of them in the last month of the war and actually flew a Dora Equipped fighter unit.
Here is the Climb:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1097361527_doraclimb.jpg)
Here is the level speed:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1097362018_doraspeed3.3.jpg)
Notice in the remarks, under finish of the Aircraft, it says "Primed and Painted" NOT "filled and polished" as the english translated "FW-190A8" flight curve claims. That curve was transcribed from this test conducted for the Ta-152 program.
Crumpp
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Hi Grünherz,
>I wonder what a Falke would have done with 1100hp DB601s in 1940.. Or with 1350hp DB601Es of Bf109F...
The Fw 187V-7 was to be fitted with 1350 HP DB601H engines (DB601E engines modified for surface condensation cooling) in order to beat the Me 209's word speed record.
Similar to Heinkel's attempt, this had to be abandoned due to the outbreak of the war.
The Fw 187B series (the order for which was canceled at the last moment) was designed for the DB601E, but unfortunately the documents on this variant were lost.
The Fw 187C series was to be fitted with the DB605A and would have yielded P-38 style performance. The Caesar was culled for unknown reasons when two prototypes were almost ready.
At one point, Focke-Wulf actually suggested the Fw 187 with DB605 as alternative to the Ta 152H because they thought they'd get superior performance from a twin.
The RLM finally decided they did indeed want an aircraft like the Fw 187C, but it had to be made from wood to save strategic materials. Tank designed a new, similar aircraft to fit the requirements of wood construction - the Ta 154.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Ouch HoHun, this seems like a real world beater. If they thought it could do better than Ta152 then performance would clearly have been in Dehavilland Hornet terriotory. Ouch!
Now, Pongo, you see that kills me.... :(
HoHun IMO the Ta154 is much inferior design, the fuselage is much draggier, it has one of the worst wing-fuselage joints possible, the trike gear adds weight, and of course the cockpit visibility is atrocious. Not to mention that it only came about in 1945 instead of 1940..
Did the RLM really hate FW so much to deny the LW of such spectacular performers such as Fw187 and a DB603 Fw190 in favor of inferior messerschmit products like Bf110, 210/410 and the awful Me309..
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new question...
Were they (190D-9) deployed in small, moderate, or huge numbers in the east?
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Were they (190D-9) deployed in small, moderate, or huge numbers in the east?
By the end of the war, the majority of FW-190 equipped Jagdgeshwader's were flying Dora's or had begun conversion.
JG2 and JG26 were equipped entirely with Dora's and had phased out the Bf-109.
Crumpp
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You have to be carefull with the term "Eastern front" when looking toward the last few months of the GPW.
I could find no active Doras on the Eastern front prior to February 45 when I looked for a scenario.
By March the Red Army had advanced so far that the LW were using German fields as forward bases for the air war over Prussia and Poland.
There were no D9's in the Baltic IFAIK.
There were no D9's over Czechaslovakia IFAIK.
So what we see in the dieing months of the GPW was the LW using home bases for both Eastern and Western fronts and as such ac were able to switch between them.
Hence during this period the VVS met up with most LW AC types still in service. Even 262's.
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As Tilt said there were no D9s in the Baltics. Most people consider the "Eastern Front" anything east of Berlin. With that in mind I have a film of D9s taking off from a field in Germany carrying bombs.
This was a mass scramble of 15 + aircraft. Included were late war 109s. The field was water logged and several 190s almost nose over as they hit thick patches of mud.
Rudel for instance flew a D9 on Jabo missions.
My point being whatever service the D9 saw in the "Eastern Front" was limited to the very end of the war at which time the "Eastern Front" was pressed almost to the gates of Berlin.
Even then their useage would be consider "small".
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Originally posted by Wotan
As Tilt said there were no D9s in the Baltics. Most people consider the "Eastern Front" anything east of Berlin. With that in mind I have a film of D9s taking off from a field in Germany carrying bombs.
This was a mass scramble of 15 + aircraft. Included were late war 109s. The field was water logged and several 190s almost nose over as they hit thick patches of mud.
Rudel for instance flew a D9 on Jabo missions.
My point being whatever service the D9 saw in the "Eastern Front" was limited to the very end of the war at which time the "Eastern Front" was pressed almost to the gates of Berlin.
Even then their useage would be consider "small".
I'm thinking that this is a still from the film Wotan mentioned. Captioned as a 190D12 operating from a rainy Eastern Front airfield in early 1945.
Bottom photo identified as the 190D9 of IV/JG3 Oberleutnant Oskar "Ossi" Romm's 'scrounged" 190D9 at Prenzlau in March 1945.
Apparently he scrounged enough D9s for a staffel of JG3 by going so far as to recover abandoned D9s at soon to be overrun airfields.
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1097483308_190d9.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1097483659_rommd9.jpg)
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Yup guppy that looks like it....
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Ivan Kozhedub mentioned in his book that his 50th victory was a "new Foke-Wulf with a water-cooled engine". It happened in Germany, but I don't remember if he gave an exact date or place. He shot this 190 over his airfield and they caught a pilot, so it really was a Dora.
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Originally posted by Wotan
the D9 was neither a bomber interceptor nor a "High Alt" fighter.
If that is so, then what about the photo of a D-9 diving away and 6 bombs, dropped by a B-26. (photo taken from the B-26)
Is not the Courland Pocket on the Baltic? IIRC, a famous ace crash landed while flying a D-9 there.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
If that is so, then what about the photo of a D-9 diving away and 6 bombs, dropped by a B-26. (photo taken from the B-26)
Oh please. Just because it attacked an enemy bomber does not mean it was either designed as a bomber-destroyer or even tasked as such on that flight. You know very well that combat is far messier than that.
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the spitfire carried barrels of beer on its wingpoints, therefore it is a beer-transport plane.
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LOL :)
Adolf Galland carried Lobsters and Champagne in his Bf109 so its a luxury food delivery plane!!
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the Ju-52 transported Hitler about.... therefore it was a human waste transporter?
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:D
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
If that is so, then what about the photo of a D-9 diving away and 6 bombs, dropped by a B-26. (photo taken from the B-26)
Is not the Courland Pocket on the Baltic? IIRC, a famous ace crash landed while flying a D-9 there.
You recall wrong. I have just about every book written on Courland / Kurland. In fact I have complete OOBs and equipment lists for the LW as well as some relatively rare photos.
There were no D9's in Kurland. I designed the AH scenario 'Bridgehead: Kurland' as well. You can be sure if I found D-9's in Kurland I would have added them to the Axis Orbat. All of JG54's D9s were in the west.
This picture doesn’t show a D9 attacking a b-26.
(http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/Art/d9attack.jpg)
It isn’t really clear if it’s diving or flying under the b26. It could be chasing off an escort fighter, or running to escape one.
I am sure D9s did fire on bombers but they were not "bomb interceptor" nor were they designed as such.
Why do resort to such idiocy? Do you just need attention? Some one to talk to?
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Well Wotan, if you would write more clearly then there would no way for anyone to mis-interept what you are trying to say.:)
Well I found the ref and it was O. Romm but he was based at Prenzlau.:)
Speculate on the Dora in the photo all you want but it was still very close to some bombers.:)
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Again you play the idiot. Just read the 1st thread. Part of what the guy asked was if D9's were restricted to high alt fighter duty and bomber interception.
You have real issue with "context".
My answer was 100% clear on that point. I said exactly what I meant. The fact that a D9 some where at some time got “near a bomber” or maybe even fired it’s guns at a bomber is irrelevant.
BTW you are the one speculating on the D9 image. It isn't attacking anything. Of course D9s got "near bombers" as the covered 190s whose task was to kill bombers.
See Guppy’s image. There's a D9 carrying a bomb. I have a 5 min film jabo D9's. That doesn’t mean they were designed as "tank busters" and restricted to low alt.
The only one confused is you. Even with the low opinion I already have of you I find it hard to believe you are so dense and am only left assuming that it’s just an act.
That's why I asked if you were just looking for attention or for just some one to chat with.
Here's a pic of "Stuka Girl" and Ju 87 D-5 W.Nr unknown 'T6 + TU' 10.(Pz.)/S.G. 2 as it surrendered at Kitzingen. She was the girlfriend of the pilot.
(http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/gordon7.jpg)
Does that mean the Stuka was restrcited to ferrying women about? Or was a airborne taxi?
We can get as stupid as you want.
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In (real) combat...
Was 190D a a stop-gap to La-7 - Yak-3/9 or had hard time as usual against la-yak?
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Originally posted by Wotan
(http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/gordon7.jpg)
Does that mean the Stuka was restrcited to ferrying women about? Or was a airborne taxi?
We can get as stupid as you want.
It is quite clearly a pimp-mobile. don't you know anything? :rolleyes:
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Emmm...a question:
How many Doras were produced, and how many sorties did they rack up?
A rather modest proportion of the whole time of the 190 I'd guess.
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If I'm not mistaken there were about 1.5k Doras produced
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Originally posted by Tilt
You have to be carefull with the term "Eastern front" when looking toward the last few months of the GPW.
I could find no active Doras on the Eastern front prior to February 45 when I looked for a scenario.
By March the Red Army had advanced so far that the LW were using German fields as forward bases for the air war over Prussia and Poland.
There were no D9's in the Baltic IFAIK.
There were no D9's over Czechaslovakia IFAIK.
So what we see in the dieing months of the GPW was the LW using home bases for both Eastern and Western fronts and as such ac were able to switch between them.
Hence during this period the VVS met up with most LW AC types still in service. Even 262's.
Actually I believe there were Dora's over CZ in that the Luftwaffe was 'falling back' to the Prague area at the end, and the 262 units were there for some time, and the 262 units used Dora's as airfield cap during take off and landings :)
Bazi