Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on October 16, 2000, 01:45:00 PM
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why does one turn like a spitfire and the other like a corsair?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Nice troll...hehe!
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unfortunately not rip .. the C turning like a spit is a bit exgragated .. but there is a notable performance disparity between the two
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hi all:
Duckwing, the F4Uc does turn like the spit, and I have had F4Uc's out turn me well I'm in a spit. the F4Uc is the dweebiest plane of all planes in this sim. it has four 105 howizters for guns, can out turn every plane in the game, and can climb and loop with out loosing any speed. I was in a spit and had what looked like about a 2 to 3 k advantage on a F4Uc, as I started my dive on it, it climbed up and out loopped me to get the one ping shot in and shread my spit. what a crok.
well I am not having a lot of fun playing this sim with the super dweeb plane here, and the reason I am paying $30 a month is to have some fun. so if this super plane is not fixed, why should I continue paying just to get pissed off by all the dweeb pilots that have to fly F-16's (F4Uc) in a game that is suppose to be WWII fighters. and no I will not fly the F-16 (F4Uc) just so I can kill others with a very unfair advantage. either fix it or loose it, but do some thing very soon. and for all those that think this is whinning, think about it. what other plane in this sim has had so much attention and complaints. this is not the first or will it be the last as long as people are aloud to fly an F-16 (F4Uc) in a WWII flight sim game.
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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I thought Spit was the original Dweeb-plane ?
Who changed it ?
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can out turn every plane in the game, and can climb and loop with out loosing any speed. I was in a spit and had what looked like about a 2 to 3 k advantage on a F4Uc, as I started my dive on it, it climbed up and out loopped me to get the one ping shot in and shread my spit
Got some film? The -1C can not come close to out turning, out climbing, or out looping a Spit.
The only way for this to happen, is if used too steep a dive on your attack and got the speed in your Spitfire up to a point that you have decreased elevator authority (ie you were too fast), and by the time you pulled out you were already way below him, giving him the advantage. And if this happened, its not a -1C FM problem.
And complaints about the guns? Its the exact same gun thats on the Spitfire. So its ok when you use it on the Spitfire, but its a dweeb 105 howitzer on a -1C ??
And if my Yak can out turn and out climb the -1C, I know your Spitfire can.
You guys are blowing things way outta proportions and allowing some major exagerations to creep into your arguements.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 10-16-2000).]
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F4u C might not turn like spitfire, but it sure does climb closer to something non-corsair plane, while F4u D seems more like corsair (C behaves alot better than D)
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If Corsairs are out-turning your Spit, you're doing something wrong.
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Verm, give your head a shake. the F4Uc cannons are way deadleir the the spit cannons. that is why people use the F4uc to attack ground units and not the spit. and no I do not have film. and of course a dweeb pilot will say yeah, I must have been going way to fast in my dive is why the F-16 (F4Uc) was able to suddenly out fly the spit. and yes I know every F-16 (F4Uc) pilot is going to defend there dweeb plane. god forbid they might loose the F-16 (F4Uc) and have to fly a normal WWII fighter.
Now Verm, if you think there is nothing wrong with the F-16 (F4Uc), then you should have no problem with HTC taking another look at this plane and its four 105 howizters. But dont try and tell me its cannons are the same as the spits cannons, maybe you should fly the spit for one week and leave the F-16 (F4Uc) on the ground, but then you would have to really earn your kills and that might hurt your score. so I guess we wont see you in a spit will we.
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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Nice troll Citabria. Unfortunately, it worked a little too well.
Since the intent was lost... I'll contribute to the hooked debate...
I have not had an F4u-1C enter an engagement I was in and get the upperhand due to maneuvering. Not one single time. The only F4u-1C death I have endured was due to a blown landing after he hit my fuel tank on a 1:1 then ran off.
I'm not a particularly good pilot. I don't have extreme ACM skills and don't pretend to be able to go up against even half the pilots in the arena and win. Why is it that I do not have a problem vs the F4u-1C? I can't understand why this plane is so difficult for most to combat.
I'd much rather deal with the occasional F4u-1C or two that I see than the horde of spit-IX pilots I've been enduring. One is definately easier to catch than the other.
Oh.. wait.. what do I know. I only flew the 1C exclusively last tour and the 1D exclusively this one. Kinda funny that my K/D and K/S went up in the 1D.
Still amazing that the plane can be considered this "UBER" without 1 second of film to prove it.
AKDejaVu
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Perhaps my lack of ACM is showing here but I never have been able to notice much if any difference in the handling or flying capabilities of either of the types. I prefer the D model for one reason only, I prefer the rate of fire of 6 50 cals versus the rate of fire of the 20mm's. I seem to be able to hit better with the 50's.
My main ride is the 47-25 and I can usually kill either F4U if I fly it right. I really only have problems with good pilots regardless of the plane they are flying.
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MarkAT
"It is not the critic who counts,
it is the man in the arena..."
Teddy Roosevelt
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Why don't two of you hawg dweebs take a -d and a -c to the TA and get some film of you two running sustained turns?
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Ever been to the air races? One thing you seem to see most of the time is the Corsair taking the far outside on the turns, while Mustangs and Hawkers cut inside. Sometimes I wonder why.
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Nice one cit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) http://www.banthechog.com/ (http://www.banthechog.com/)
The Chog is an: "i can make an error plane "
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sorry wolf. The sijog does NOT outturn a spit.
however it does turn pretty good.
guys it DOES turn better than 1d. I have proved this to myself many times flying both planes. 1d wings even brake off easier than 1c..
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A -1C is a -1A with cannons. This means that it is somewhat lighter than the -1D and has less drag because of the missing hardpoints. It should be a bit more maneuverable than the -1D.
The ability to film events in this game should make solving these arguments trivial. If -1C's can do unbelievable things, then just film the events and produce the proof.
Hooligan
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OMG people it cant outturn a Spit in a sustained match but if it B&Z's you and you try to flat turn you are toast. The F4u has decent cornering ability not as good as the N1k but decent. The Spit does not. The Spit is good at looping fights. Try it!!
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Originally posted by Hooligan:
A -1C is a -1A with cannons. This means that it is somewhat lighter than the -1D and has less drag because of the missing hardpoints.
Then why does the CHog have the same bomb/rocket/drop tank load than DHog?
Care to explain to me, pliz?.
Ohhh, and if it was an A version it should have wing fuel tanks...making for good fire effects and higher loads.
Either it is bad modelled or it has unrealistic loadouts. Choose one of those problems and fix it.
And yes, I have seen endless turning CHogs.
Ah, Mr Andy Bush, true , 50 cals have higher RoF than 20mm...but while you need a lot of 50 cal hits, one or two 20mm hits will do the work fer yah.
Plus the cannons make it a nice Headon machine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Sorry I didn't post this when the thread started. F4U Corsair (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/f4u.html)
Scroll down some to read all about this "beast".
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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4x20mm and ammo weigh the same as 6x.05 with ammo? Hmmmmmm ....
And please, can someone tell me the real difference (and if any, the reason) between C and D model performance? Hardpoints? hmmmmmm ... I agree with RAM ...
BTW, looks like we have plenty of FM and E wizards here. Someone enlighten me.
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The F4U-1C does indeed climb better than the F4U-1D. By about 100fpm iirc. Why? Who knows, ask Pyro(again).
What I'm more concerned about is that the F4U-1C appears to have been "playbalanced" by the removal of 4 of it's rocket rails. It should have 8 in total, just like the F4U-1D. True. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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No Juzz .. it should have none at all .. and not be able to carry any underwing stores, be that fuel or bombs .. AFAIK it was lighter than its predecessors because they removed all pylons and aerial target towing equipment.
e.g keep the C, but then remove all external stores
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I cannot carry DT with the C.205 (even if some models had them) and the actual C-Hog can carry ordnance that never had? No, tell me I'm wrong.
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Wolf: Each cannon on the -1C is the EXACT same cannon as that on the Spitfire, the Typhoon, and the P38. All are the Hispano MkII 20mm cannon, to argue otherwise is making yourself look stupid.
I don't mind Pyro taking a look at the -1C. I just find it amusing that people come in here making ridiculous bias'd and distorted claims about it being "porked" and have not the slightest bit of proof. You have a guncam, bring us proof. Real Simple issue.
And go back and check my Stats before you acuse me of being a "F-16 Pilot". Other than one or two sorties per Tour, I have only flown the -1C in a single tour (Tour 8) since Tour 1. So in 8 months, I have flown the -1C for exact one month. And I did that because of people making claims like yours. I wanted to see if they were true. But I couldn't find it, in fact I found the plane to be quite mediocre except for the guns. Personally I fly alot of the different planes in AH. Do you? Or do you just stick with the Spit?
And a Dweebfire IX pilot calling another pilot type a dweeb? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Gatt: Yes the x4 20mm plus ammunition, actually weighs slightly less than the x6 .50's plus ammunition. Hooligan did a detailed calculation here on the BBS within the past couple of weeks. I will try to find it.
Duckwing: Could you share your source with me on that? Finding good data on the -1C is hard. I do know that the -1A could carry a external drop tank (single centerline hardpoint), and the -1D could carry the pair of drop tanks (x2 wing hardpoints). And in AH the -1C and -1D don't carry the same external load, the -1C has half the number of rocket rails.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Gatt: Here is what Hooligan posted about the weight difference in the two armament packages.
Browning M2 weighs: 70 lbs
1 belted round of .50 weighs (approx): .305 lb
6xM2 + 2350 .50 rounds weigh: 1137 lbs
Hispano weighs: 129 lbs
belted round of 20mm weighs (approx): .653 lb
4xHis + 932 20mm rounds weigh: 1125 lbs
Data from page 133 in "America's Hundred Thousand".
Here is the full thread if you wish to read it.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000848.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000848.html)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
And in AH the -1C and -1D don't carry the same external load, the -1C has half the number of rocket rails.
But it carries two hard points for up to two 1000lbs and/or a BIG drop tank. 4 rockets less? who wants rockets having 4 20mm megalazers?
Verm, I rarely fly F4Us ,for sure not enough to know about differences about D and C versions, but I know that when I see a yellow nose on the F4U I'm fighting (in any plane) I am relieved because I know he wont be able to do the magical dance the C hogs does.
And if you don't trust in my experience against the F4Us, listen Duckwing. He is the best Hog pilot in AH, and he flies it almost exclusively. If he says there is a big difference in the FM and performance of both aircrafts, then it is true.
So, if you tell me that F4U1-C does the magic dance it does because it is lighter because less hardpoints than DHog, fine. Remove one of the hardpoints and let the Hog with only one. And add the wet wings,too.
If you tell me that F4U1-D does HAVE both hardpoints as modelled, then the FM has to have something wrong. Because only the change of weapons/ammo doesnt explain 100fpm more and the incredible E-retaining that the Chog shows all day long.
Methinks that a FM revision is in order.
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Methinks that a FM revision is in order.
Proof RAM, show me proof.
I am not saying your wrong. I am saying that people come in here making wild claims without the slightest bit of proof or evidence.
All I have seen are "I got my butt kicked by the Hog, so it must be porked" arguements.
Not any " my tests show that the -1C has a average turn time of 25 seconds, while the -1D has a average turn time 29 seconds, and the -1C retains energy better by approximately 35%".
Which would you believe?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Another case of "I have a big ego and was shot down, so the plane must go!"
Next on list after 1C is removed..."The Niki is a UFO and its cannons are too lethal!"
LOL!
As Verm said..."FILM PLEASE"...VMF-323 flys the CHOG for Air-to-Ground, and believe me when I tell you that NO ONE feels it has any of the abilities that some of you claim. I believe that A) None of you that call for its removal have had alot of time in it. And B) You CAN do something about it, take one up yourself and pay the bastard back that shot you down!
Man, this board is really gonna warm up when the first perk planes hit the tarmac!
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Look some posts above...Duckwing said that F4U1-C's maneouverability is far better than DHog's and he stated that Citabria's post was NOT a troll (remember that he posted that the F4U1-C turned like a spitfire)
This aren't numeric proofs, but are claims for a guy who is not know exactly for his whinin, but for his excellent handling of the F4U. And it supports my in game experience too.
Sorry,but I have to believe him.
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s Verm said..."FILM PLEASE"...VMF-323 flys the CHOG for Air-to-Ground, and believe me when I tell you that NO ONE feels it has any of the abilities that some of you claim
Ripsnort, I have to remark this fact to you, maybe you didnt noticed it,but...
Duckwing,a member of VMF323, your own squad, has stated twice in this forum that the handling difference between Dhog and Chog is too much for the difference in weight of the weapons in both types.
That difference in weight can be owed to Chog having one less hardpoint than Dhog in real life (noone has confirmed this so far).
But Aces High's Chog has exactly the same ammount of hardpoints than Dhog, so, or the loadouts in Chog are completely wrong, or the FM needs a revision.
Also keep in mind that F4U1-A had "wet wings", I.E. Fuel tanks on wings, that in D version were deleted. If Chog is a development of Ahog then it should have those tanks, too (and their weight, too).
Again, its not "my ego is hurt". Your own squadmate said it first, not me.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Wolf37-
You're going to laugh at this, but it is much easier (for me) to kill a tank with a Spitfire than a F4U-1C. I can get 2-3 tanks in the Spit, maybe a couple in the 1C.
No numbers to back this up, and YMMV. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Kieren:
Wolf37-
You're going to laugh at this, but it is much easier (for me) to kill a tank with a Spitfire than a F4U-1C. I can get 2-3 tanks in the Spit, maybe a couple in the 1C.
No numbers to back this up, and YMMV. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BAN THE SPIT, IT KEEPS KILLING ME, HAS THE SAME GUNS AS F4U-1C, CAN TURN BETTER, CAN BOOM AND ZOOM, CAN OUT ACCELERATE AND OUTCLIMB THE F4U-1C, BAN IT! <tongue in cheek>
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Also keep in mind that F4U1-A had "wet wings", I.E. Fuel tanks on wings, that in D version were deleted. If Chog is a development of Ahog then it should have those tanks, too (and their weight, too).
RAM, you need to look at the way fuel management changed on the Corsair from the -1A to the -1D.
From the -1A to the -1D, yes they deleted the wing tanks, but increased the amount of drop tank fuel available.
And I will have to look this up, but I believe that the -1A even with the internal wing tanks, still weighed less than the -1D.
So really unless your carrying very large internal fuel loads, you won't see much difference between the two.
If anything at the same total max fuel loads of the two, the -1A has an advantage, because its fuel is internal, where the -1D is external and creates more drag.
As to the direct issue of the -1C, I find conflicting information as too whether its a derivative of the -1A or the -1D. I honestly don't know which its suppose to be, and unless we can find someone who actually worked on one in the factory, we'll probably never know.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Hmm, the other night I fought a floppy fish Chog on the deck in the P-51. Being the lousy shot that I am, I didn't hit him more than once i think lol. Anyways I stalled him at least half a dozen times over about 10 minutes. I commented on his floppin around, and he came back and replied "I'm not allowed to stall anymore?" Guess I was seeing the "spin recovery after 1/2 a turn move" I think planes in AH are WAAAAY to sensitive to control inputs at low speed... but anyways thats a discussion for another thread.
I did not find the Chog much better than the 51 in E retention in this combat, I was able to keep him 800 yrds below me (my FE) on all the rope attempts. If i'd been in the chog I'd have been shootin my bellybutton from that range...
The rope was my only move in aw3.. now i just have to learn how to shoot!! to make use of it here..
SKurj
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Thanks for the infos about guns and ammos weigths. Variables during dogfights are too much, so I understand its very difficult to generalize. However, hotheads like me tend to get pissed off when they see strange things in arena. I mean 180deg turns and zoom climbs ... hmmm, I'll begin to film such UFO encounters ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I WANT TO BELIEVE!
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No Juzz .. it should have none at all .. and not be able to carry any underwing stores, be that fuel or bombs .. AFAIK it was lighter than its predecessors because they removed all pylons and aerial target towing equipment.
I have seen PHOTOS of F4U-1C's sitting on carrier decks during WW2, with four rocket rails on each of their folded wings.
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Yes, switch to film.
Vermillion is 100% correct. Please, with all the time folks spent typing these messages, one or two could find the time to go into the TA and actually TEST these planes. C'mon. How tough would getting a bit of evidence be? Pyro will listen to you if you actually.... wait for it..... have some FACTS to show him.
Those damn 109's keep killing my Jug flyin ass, so they must be porked! Sheesh.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
- Steve Earl
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Pyro said:
There are a lot of sources that cite the 1C as a development of the 1A, and then there are other sources that say that is incorrect and the 1C was a simultaneous development based on the 1D. I think the latter is more correct based on serial numbers.
I could find no reference from Pyro in regards to the F4u-1C in AH being based on the F4u-1A.
ram said:
Duckwing,a member of VMF323, your own squad, has stated twice in this forum that the handling difference between Dhog and Chog is too much for the difference in weight of the weapons in both types.
Did Duckwing6 mention how many times he's flown the F4u-1C since 1.04 came out? Sorry Ram, but DW6 is about as unbiased in this thread as you are (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I flew the F4u-1C last tour almost exclusively. I've flown the F4u-1D this tour almost exclusively. The difference is minimal at best.
Ironically... the toughest F4u I've downed this tour was a plane that managed to turn the tables on me. I ran as 2 other countrymates joined the fight. One of them aper. I broke as I saw the F4u disengage me to try to rid himself of the 109 and spit that were now persuing him. I climbed about 2k to let aper do his thing. After over a minute, the plane was still going with nobody clearly gaining an advantage on him. I dove in as aper was just completing a loop and caught the F4u going slow in the verticle and took him apart. As I closed to within 100 yards... only then did I see the yellow nose.
Of all the engagements I have been in this tour, I can remember maybe 3 times that someone fired at me on an HO aspect initial engagement. 1 Spit, 1 Lanc and a P-38. I got the lanc (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) The other two I managed to spoil the shot on. I haven't encountered that "HO CHOG DWEEB!" that I keep seeing refered to in the text buffer. I wonder why that is.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
As to the direct issue of the -1C, I find conflicting information as too whether its a derivative of the -1A or the -1D. I honestly don't know which its suppose to be, and unless we can find someone who actually worked on one in the factory, we'll probably never know.
Verm, it is easy:
either one of the hardpoints is removed and wing tanks added to the Chog ( I want them because they will make F4UC much more flammable (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)), or the FM is revised to make the FM more close than that of the F4U1-D.
It isnt that difficult. You take either one way of action or other.
But something HAS to be done, as it is clear that there is something wrong with the plane's FM.
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Want to add one comment to this thread, I've been flat out whooped in a T&B/E fight by a chog in a YAK. Now I don't claim to be a total stud 1 vs 1...but I'm sure not a total zero either. It felt like I was fighting a nikki with hog artwork. Now I've fought a lot of good hog drivers and NEVER seen em pull any of the moves I've often observed in the MA by chogs. Further they'll all tell ya hogs wont do this stuff....it's not one person complaining here, it's an EXPANDING issue.
If it walks like a duck,talks like a duck.....it's a duck. Please look at this.
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i dunno, used to fly the c a lot, found it waaaaay to easy to get kills in. Think in tour 6 or 7 had like a 20 to 1 k/d in that thing. Some people who do fly it quite a bit do question its purpose in this game.
I tell people not to think of this game as a historic WWII sim, its not. Its an air sim with wwii aircraft in it. That makes it easier to accept low production equipment being modeled.
remove it or not? not my choice, thats HT's choice.
I actually stopped flying it because it got to be silly racking up 7 kills a sortie, non vulched and rarely vehicles.
my post is just rambling nonsense, move along.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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My point is that I believe many people are mixing up two seperate issues, and its evident in the posts above.
I.) Flight Model accuracy
II.) Gun Lethality
Is it easy to get kills in? Yes, of course it is. Its got the best gun set in the game. No arguement there.
But to then say the Flight model is porked because its easy to get kills in, is not necessarily true.
Thats why I say "Show proof", and not to let your emotions get the best of you when you lose a fight to one.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 10-17-2000).]
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LOL wow that thread picked uo quite some speed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ok i said there is a NOTABLE difference .. not Huge not monstrous not giantic .. just notable that is!
Deja you're right i'm biased here but i've flown a LOT of formation with Cs to know that there's a performance difference. Not a big one at that.
Oh and Verm the reference i have is:
Motorbooks International
Warbird History
F4U Corsair
ISBN 0-87938-854-4
There's only about 1/2 page about the C and it merely states that it existed and has only a short note that it was lighter than the F4U-1 .. but these changes were also incorporated in all sucessively produced F4Us (which is mainly Ds)
*edit: Doh forgot to say why it was lighter... Snip from book: "To reduce the weight of the F4U-1C, Vough requested the BuAer` permision to delete the wing bomb racks and all provisions for towing aerial targets"
[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 10-17-2000).]
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As a nearly exclusive CHOG pilot I know that if I can get a few pings on a plane it will die! love those guns! he he he
But on the occasion that I do fly any other plane and encounter a CHOG I only fear 1 thing...the HO (but even that is quite avoidable). Otherwise the only less threatening plane for me to encounter is a C47.
In fact when I encounter a "furball" of planes I will intentionally seek out CHOGS over all other planes becasue I know their many weaknesses.
Is the CHOG a great plane? Yes! Is it leathal with just a few pings? DUH!!! 4x200mm (have you seen an actual 20mm round vs. a 50mm? HUGE diff!!)
Can it out turn a Spit? Definately not, unless the wussy Spit pilot can't handle pulling a few G's and a little blackout. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Can the CHOG perform well at low speeds and make impressive tight turns? YES!!! Drop the flaps a notch (tip I learned from a REAL F4U fighter ACE) and go easy on the controlls and you can easily turn inside a faster moving spit, n1k etc. for a nice snapshot.
It should be common knowledge that the F4U was one of the best WWII fighters built so why wouldn't it be expected that it is one of the best fighters in this game?
Just a thought (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Yep discod the Corasir was one of the finest planes in and after ww2, but the sad fact is nobody flies at Corsair that actually earned that reputation. They all fly the squealing god-awful dweebish roadkill of a UFO FM chog. And even then 90% of them will just try headons. Yesterday I almost fainted when a chog didnt go for the headon and actually tried to use his energy superiority to beat me and get a clean shot, yes its that squealing rare these days.