Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Grendel on October 09, 2004, 04:36:15 AM
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Swedish and Finnish AF has the habit of operating from dispersed road strip air bases. I stumbled into the FiAF web page photo archive directory and voila, good stuff there. I thought to share some interesting pictures of that kind of aviation that many of you may not have seen before.
Swedish planes are very much designed for short takeoff and landing. Their design philosophy's one key idea is to spread the planes around the country, so they aren't an easy target in normal airbases. Same with Finland. Our planes weren't always designed for that, though. Saab Draken was great plane and well, it took a lot of work and training to find out how the hell you can get that damn crate to fit into small road strip bases. Their landing speed was pretty high you know. And MiG-21s? Same thing. You just don't see anything to your front when landing and these road bases are small. With F-18s it is easier these days. Hornets take off quickly and land to quite small strip, and you can use the carrier equipment as well, with mobile wire systems. Very useful.
(http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2203-hn2.jpg)
(http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2196-hn1.jpg)
(http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2205-hn4.jpg)
(http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2206-hn5.jpg)
(http://www.byterapers.com/~grendel/scan/hornet/hornet_training_1.jpg)
(http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2260-dscn0134.jpg)
(http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2489-hn_maantietkk_net.jpg)
(http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2264-dscn0139.jpg)
(http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2267-dscn0144.jpg)
(http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2272-dscn0151.jpg)
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Now that's the kinda "camping" I could get into!
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Do they have the right of way? Heh. Good pics. The Finns should contact Hollywood and sell some footage for pontential clips in the remake of "Red Dawn."
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Excellent pics Grendel :)
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That first picture looks like the worlds fastest speed cop :)
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Ehhh ... a rush job but ....
(http://jollyrogers.info/images/speedtrap02.jpg)
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:rofl Awesome Arlo!
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Outstanding Arlo :D
Now do the writing in finish
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Originally posted by Arlo
Ehhh ... a rush job but ....
(http://jollyrogers.info/images/speedtrap02.jpg)
Damn thats sexy. Do another 1 that isn't a rush job - i'd love to see what you could come up with.
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To be honest ... prolly not much better than you're seeing right now. And I'm really supposed to be working on Rangoon stuff (shhhh). :lol
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Very nice,,
Finns turn F-18 into Bush Plane.
Great idea, have you ever tried skis or tundra tires?
They would be very hard to find spread out like that
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I dont think they clearly have their license plates or tags visable and I dont see any of them using a blinker, must be woman drivers lol.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Outstanding Arlo :D
Now do the writing in finish
"VOUDIN MIÄRÄÄMIEN NOPEUSRAJJOITUKSIEN VALAVONTA TULLAAN SUORITETTAMMAAN HÄVITTÄJÄLENTOKONNEIHEN YSTÄVÄLLISELLÄ AVUSTUKSELLA."
:)
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Originally posted by mora
"VOUDIN MIÄRÄÄMIEN NOPEUSRAJJOITUKSIEN VALAVONTA TULLAAN SUORITETTAMMAAN HÄVITTÄJÄLENTOKONNEIHEN YSTÄVÄLLISELLÄ AVUSTUKSELLA."
:)
what he ^ said
-edit- think you better tell arlo where to put it all :D
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Great pictures..., great aircraft..., great pilots...., and a great idea.
Well done....
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Anyone know how how long runway you need to get airborne dry/combat weight in the F/A-18 ?
could look it up, but i bet some of you know.
p.s. metric please :D
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I think that I once heard that it's about 400m/1000ft.
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Originally posted by mora
I think that I once heard that it's about 400m/1000ft.
empty?
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At normal TO weight I believe. Not too sure about that, though.
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Got to love the Finns. Give them a dirt road or snow and they will drive 130 mph. Give them a nice dry paved road and they fly jets off it. :)
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Originally posted by Scootter
Very nice,,
Finns turn F-18 into Bush Plane.
Great idea, have you ever tried skis or tundra tires?
They would be very hard to find spread out like that
Hehe not to jets certainly. But using skis with the older warplanes was normal practise. Skis were tested with almost all the different fighters and bombers as well. During wintertime, for example in Winter War, the Fokker D.XXI and Gladiator fighters were equipped with skis and they operated from iced lakes. Very hard to find, those places. Ofter Soviet bomber formations flew over the bases without seeing them.
The Finnish AF technical department tested also recratable skies for many planes. I think the list includes for example Brewster, Fiat G.50, Fokker D.XXI and Hurricane. And imagine that - Blenheim as well.
The recratable skis caused still too much drag, though, and therefore the higher performance planes were always on normal tires. This of course took a lot of work for the ground crews to keep the airfield strips or the ice lake runways in good condition.
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That state trooper pic is cool ;-)
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Hey ARLO!!! clean that up would ya! and make it 1024 X 768!!!
Thats an awesome wallpaper if ya ask me!!!:D
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The F-18 has been fantastic plane for us. There was of course lots of political struggle as the purchase was pretty expensive, but in the end the Air Force got their will through: they got to choose the best plane and decided on F-18. Besides other capabilities, the two engines are a life saver. There's already been some cases where the plane would have been lost, when the other engine quit. But with other still running, they've got back ok.
The planes have, btw, some unique modifications and capabilities. We got newer radar system than the US F-18s and the planes are equipped with the Finnish real time Command and Control system. Somewhat similar system is, to my understanding, right now being tested by US AF and USAF personnel have visited FiAF studying our system and bringing knowledge back home. The system, shortly put, puts together a large picture of all aerial activity in Finnish airspace and as far as teh radars can see it, combines all radar, visual etc data together, and sends real time tactical data highly encrypted to all interceptors. The planes see complete picture of all activity without needign to turn their own radar on. Even if ground radars are shut down or destroyed the country wide survellance system still works, from Eyeball Mk. I and above, sends data and ground controllers always now what is where in the airspace. So an intercept can be made in complete radio silence, with the interceptor using the "Tietovuo" system data until they've got to visual distance, sliding behind target and either flashing radar to send radar missiles or launch the heat seekers. This Tietovuo system was originally developed in the 1960s, I believe, and it has been continually been developed and enhanced. Before F-18s it was used in the Drakens and MiGs as well.
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Here's a nice video about the subject:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~anttruok/Virttaa.zip
It's 39mb zipped.
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Originally posted by mora
"VOUDIN MIÄRÄÄMIEN NOPEUSRAJJOITUKSIEN VALAVONTA TULLAAN SUORITETTAMMAAN HÄVITTÄJÄLENTOKONNEIHEN YSTÄVÄLLISELLÄ AVUSTUKSELLA."
:)
That post illustrate perfectly why the "A" key allways fail first on a finnish keyboard :p
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I slightly overdid that sentence to illustrate Nilsens point, but I guess you'r right.:)
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Originally posted by straffo
That post illustrate perfectly why the "A" key allways fail first on a finnish keyboard :p
It's not the "A" key that fails, but the "Ä" key. :)
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Originally posted by mora
Here's a nice video about the subject:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~anttruok/Virttaa.zip
It's 39mb zipped.
WOW that's amazing video!
Must-look for all interesting in the subject.
It shows F-18s and Hawks landing and taking off from a road strip base. Arrestor hook stop in middle of night! Talk about lightshow.
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How regular do they operate from roads? Do they have like a 'mobile caravan' to check the strip and bird control to check for birds and FOD?
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
It's not the "A" key that fails, but the "Ä" key. :)
I stand corrected :)
It will also kill a Frenhc keyboard : to type a "Ä" I've to press 4 keys !
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Originally posted by Replicant
How regular do they operate from roads? Do they have like a 'mobile caravan' to check the strip and bird control to check for birds and FOD?
Quite regularly. The idea is to disperse the whole Air Force in wartime to road bases. Main airfields would be empty of all combat aircraft, except if you need bigger repairs. I don't know how much equipment there is, how many road bases can be operating at same time but I suspect the capability is quite large. There's vehicles to clear to road of debris etc. The fueling systems, armanent storages etc have enough capasity to support such large operations. Bird control - well in remote locations the wildlife isn't as familiar with noisy vehicles, so I suspect those dangers are less worrisome than on regular airfields. Don't know the actual procedures for that though - and no clue what "FOD" means.
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FOD = Foreign Object Debris - any form of object that can be sucked into a jet engine or damage tyres etc.
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Grendel the system your speaking of is JTIDS(Joint Tactical Information Distribution System) and/or FDL (Fighter Data Link).
FDL is already in service and JTIDS is being dumped due to lack of parts and how expensive it is to maintain. JTIDS had more capabilites and a higher watts output but not worth the cost.
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Ok, don't laugh but I heard that is why the US govt built the interstate highway system. In the event of war they could set up bases anywhere if the standard ones were destroyed....
Not sure but it could work.
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Originally posted by medicboy
Ok, don't laugh but I heard that is why the US govt built the interstate highway system. In the event of war they could set up bases anywhere if the standard ones were destroyed....
Not sure but it could work.
no ike started that off. he admired the germam autobahn. modern US aircraft cant operate off dirty runways because the engines would suck up crap.
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Medic is correct. There are sections of I80 that are marked off. Only problem is they'd have to cut down some signs on the roads if that ever happened - but I don't think thats an issue for the guys with chainsaws.
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cool video but doesn't look like a road to me, looks like a military airfield in the woods. Road does not continue on either side in video
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Originally posted by doobs
cool video but doesn't look like a road to me, looks like a military airfield in the woods. Road does not continue on either side in video
It is a road.
(http://www.virttaa.net/kuvat/lentska2.jpg)
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Originally posted by doobs
cool video but doesn't look like a road to me, looks like a military airfield in the woods. Road does not continue on either side in video
Actually that part of road is widened for this exact purpose. These places are however public knowledge, and I'm not sure that they would be any safer places in wartime than regular airbases.
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Originally posted by doobs
cool video but doesn't look like a road to me, looks like a military airfield in the woods. Road does not continue on either side in video
Well, I don't know whose eyes are malfunctionin here, but I see the road extending until it disappears into forest at both ends. Especially in the end of the vid you see the road continuing past the F-18 waiting to takeoff, and when camera follows it you see the road going far far ahead. It's a road all right.
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Originally posted by bigsky
modern US aircraft cant operate off dirty runways because the engines would suck up crap.
Wouldn't F/A-18 be a modern US aircraft? It can operate on a public road as seen in the pictures.
I was fortunate enough to be camping in the Virttaa area during that air force excercise and saw the Hornet takeoff and landing. The takeoff is a pretty amazing sight in the dark.
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Originally posted by wasq
Wouldn't F/A-18 be a modern US aircraft? It can operate on a public road as seen in the pictures.
Hehe didn't notice that one at all :)
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i noticed, just because you can should you?
http://www.sftt.org/article08082002a.html
http://www.udayton.edu/news/nr/032503a.html
http://www.defense.gov/photos/Aug2004/040807-N-1485H-026.html
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article979.html
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You train like you fight - thats how they will do it - and they'd be tough as ticks I bet. U got 2 engines - if 1 gets FOD and craps out - u can land on the other 1 despite the 80 % reduction in performance and 50 % available power.
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Originally posted by bigsky
i noticed, just because you can should you?
FOD isn't a problem in this case since we've got the special sweeper vehicles to clean up the roads. I wonder whether it is cheaper to use the sweeper vehicles or have lots of people manually checking the runways...
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Regardless, i've got respect for ya. You guys have a pair thats dragging across the ground - keep up the good work.
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Originally posted by wasq
FOD isn't a problem in this case since we've got the special sweeper vehicles to clean up the roads. I wonder whether it is cheaper to use the sweeper vehicles or have lots of people manually checking the runways...
MiG-29s are able to operate from grass airfields. They have a special intake design that doesn't suck dust on takeoff.
BTW, in 1993 when USAF F-15s visited VVS training center n Lipetsk - they refused to take off from the dirty airstrip. They had Su-27 taking off before them to sweep the airstrip.
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Originally posted by medicboy
Ok, don't laugh but I heard that is why the US govt built the interstate highway system. In the event of war they could set up bases anywhere if the standard ones were destroyed....
Not sure but it could work.
From what I know and have learned you are partly correct, the Inerstate Highway was not set up specifically for that purpose. When the designed the roadways and highways they did factor in a plane landing on them. They made sure that the roads were wide enough and there were enough straight sections for planes too touch down.
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Originally posted by Boroda
MiG-29s are able to operate from grass airfields. They have a special intake design that doesn't suck dust on takeoff.
BTW, in 1993 when USAF F-15s visited VVS training center n Lipetsk - they refused to take off from the dirty airstrip. They had Su-27 taking off before them to sweep the airstrip.
For the early MIG29's that is true - they had a louver system that closed off the intakes and had air sucked in through the top of the LERX. However - in the later build MIG29's they discovered the ground clearence was enough that FOD wasn't a problem and eliminated the louver system.
Wolf
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Originally posted by Wolfala
For the early MIG29's that is true - they had a louver system that closed off the intakes and had air sucked in through the top of the LERX. However - in the later build MIG29's they discovered the ground clearence was enough that FOD wasn't a problem and eliminated the louver system.
Wolf
I never payed attention to the intake on the MiG-29s at the airshows :( I read about this in popular magazine in late-80s...
Made some search, found out that the new intake design was used on MiG-29K, carrier-based version built for Tbilisi (Fleet Admiral of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov ;)).
Upper intakes were replaced with fuel tanks, but the intake protection was improved, at least it's what I have read here (http://fulcrum.hotbox.ru/html/history.htm).