Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: MaddogJoe on October 11, 2004, 06:29:38 AM
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Nomak was kind enough to post that he was willing to help anyone with some training...and I'm still planning on hooking up with ya Nomak.... but it got me thinking of what I was looking to find in a training session. Going over what I feel are my weaknesses... and there are many to choose from :) I figured out what my biggest problem is, targeting!
Now before ya'll jump on the "targeting in harder in AH2/ no it isn't" train ride a couple of things from my point of view. When AH1 was phazed out I was in the 10% range of hit as a fighter, and was pretty happy with that. All during the beta time I flew in AH2 I was still hitting pretty much in that area.... well I seemed to be getting the hits about as often seeing as there are no "stats" for AH2 beta. However it seems to me my aim has gone south and just won't come back ! If I get into the 2% range now I'm on fire !!
So the question is, does anyone have any tips on how to aim? Yes I know I can spend hours shooting drones from every angle I can think of but I just don't have that kind of time to play. Some of you guys seem to have a "feel" for when to shoot. Watching some of these films amaze me on how many kills you get, by having to fire only short bursts.
So any training tips I could use? Visuale clues as to when to fire? Timing marks? Lazer guided systems I could DL? OK HTC may frown on that last one :) but the big question is "How do you guys do it?"
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i went from 10's and 11's hit % in AH 1 down to low 3% in AHII...
and i have NO clue what i am doing different,
all i know is at D200 (icon says 200 meaning 200-400 yards according to HTC) with my conv set to 350, flying flat and level i can NOT hit a bomber dead 6.
the other night i was D400 (no + or -) chasing a 190 in my 190... fired 295 cannons, and MG bursts each time too (probably 400+ rounds), never got a single hit sprite.
i too would like to know WTF i am doing "wrong" or what i havent found out about the new AHII dispersion, whatever.
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The biggest difference is damage model granularity. In AH1, near misses were scored as hits whereas in AH2 they are scored as misses. This seems to be the biggest problem area for people, and I'm not sure it's possible to ever completely make up the difference through fixing convergence or practicing aim.
The best advice I can give is to bring your convergence in close -- I have mine set to 225 yards for all guns -- and then only fire when in close. This lowers the probability of missing with rounds that would have once hit the enemy.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Im no crack shot myself, but I did down a nik last night firing a total of 5 20mm rnds, and a spit with 2 20mm rnds a few weeks ago. In both cases I had at least a 5 second window with them in front of me before I fired. I was paitent and waited for the right site picture.
How I adjusted was by turning tracers off for a few flights, which really makes you concentrate on the site picture. After seeing what types of shots I was missing, I would turn them back on and look for those same type of shots to see how far off I was missing, and then repeat the process. Some shots are just alot harder in AH2, but usually if you're patient you can maneuver your way into the site picture that you're good at connecting with. I think if you look at films, good shots either maneuver into a shot they cant miss, or are patient and just follow their target until they see the perfect site picture.
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Well, I'm flying a lot of US planes since the release of AH2, so my hit % isn't exactly comparable to my AH1 hit% (where I flew mostly LW).. but I don't have all that hard a time hitting shots.
I've always had my convergence set pretty close, and I fire around convergence range. Mostly though, you just get a feel for when to fire and where to aim when you do fire.
Flying a plane that doesn't have a whole lot of firepower but has the same kind of guns as the plane you want to improve your aim in is helpful to (ex P-51B for .50s, 109F for LW). That way you get used to actually aiming, and making every round count. Then you can hop back in your favorite ride and make use of your new found careful aim. When you start getting lazy again, jump back into your weakgunned plane for a few sorties to refresh your memory.
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I've found the plane form shots (a plane crossing in front of you usually during a scissors) are about the same. It's the dead 6 shots which are much more difficult. Many times I have been 200 to 600 behind a dead 6 plane and landed almost no hits. Sometimes I think the safest thing to do if you have an enemy plane on your six is just fly straight and level until he runs out of ammo! If you try to turn he'll catch you in a crossing shot or deflection shot which seem to have much higher hit probabilities.
I know a couple of enemies have broke off after unloading a whole clip on my 6. And I've run through an entire ammo load in a Typhie at D 200-400 right on a P-38's 6. The situation then reversed when I went to RTB no ammo, and he unloaded all his ammo on my Tiffie. He pinged me, but no kill hits and I made it back.
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I wish we had a WWII ace to ask....
I'm thinking the model from the dead six is better, Levi's description seems very accurate to me. The hit bubble is smaller so you simply have to be more accurate - couple that with the fact that the distance markers are no longer in feet, but in hundreds... It completely changes your lead and projectile drop.
Your comments have been very helpful to me guys... I have suffered the same "decline" in accuracy since the switch. But having read your posts, I think I'll now get back to where I was. Thanks!
One last thought, I read that in WW2 the gunsights' width were such that pilots would use them, outter and inner rings, to gage distances. Perhaps it's time to return to the "old" methods...?
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Just to add one more point on the "site picture" concept. If you are spraying away 200-400 behind an nmy and get a few hit sprites, you really have no idea where your aiming point was when those couple hits were fired. OTOH if you burst, pause, burst, pause, and one of those bursts yeild hits, you know what that site picture looked like when you fired.
Now if you look at a film of somebody like DMF you will notice he usually fires short bursts very effectively. He seems to have a library of site pictures in his head that yeild hits, and doesnt often fire until seeing one of those site pictures.
So I think in some ways the key is not going for every possible shot you see, but instead looking for shots that you are good at to develop. Dead 6 shots are hard. I usually fire very short burst at that site picture for 2 reasons. One I may get lucky and find the right aim point, but more importantly I am looking to force some maneuvering on their part to give me a site picture that is better for me to hit. Part of gunnery is setting up the shot.
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so Murdr, you use tracers more often than not then right? How do you find your site picture? I have the hardest time seeing if I hit anything with a burst with all that smoke in the way. Maybe my bursts are too long....hmmm So film, view films, memorise "site pictures" and only go for shoots that your good at.
I pride myself at getting in close for the shot. Once on someones six I think I'm very hard to shake. I'll follow and lay a burst out at where the next move the enemy makes is likley to be. This is one of the things that makes me a terrible furballer! Some people call me "target fixated", but I do use my SA while waiting for my shot. Most times however 3 other guys get him before my shot showes up :)
Ok back to the wars !! Thanks for the tips !!!
for those of you with films :)
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Originally posted by MaddogJoe
so Murdr, you use tracers more often than not then right? How do you find your site picture? I have the hardest time seeing if I hit anything with a burst with all that smoke in the way. Maybe my bursts are too long....hmmm So film, view films, memorise "site pictures" and only go for shoots that your good at.
For more than a year prior to AH2 I didnt use tracers at all. Now I use them about 1/2 the time, mostly cuz i forget to switch it after an osti sortie.
Like I said, if you make a few flights without tracers you will find yourself quickly being more picky with the shots you take because you dont have them as a reference. It kind of forces you to conciously only look for shots that you can hit. Another way to do that is fly something with a low bullet count like a la5. If you make yourself fly every once in awhile being very picky with shots, you start to naturally get an instinct on what is and isnt a good site picture.
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It's been my opinion that the biggest difference in gunnery between AH1 and AH2 is feedback. In AH1 you could see those hit sprites no matter what. Target below your nose? Hit sprites still visable. But now in AH2 you don't necessarily even get hit sprites when you land a shot. I've fired at someone, seen no reaction, and turned off only to notice the guy is now missing his tail. I think the reason your gunnery has been in decline since the release is due to this. When you can't tell that something works, you won't know to do it again the next time around.
-pellik
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Hey MD..... Sorry I havnt been around the last couple weeks. I will be up tonight and ill be lookin for yas!
Dave
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Thanks Nomak, got squad night tonight, but if I can get on early maybe we can hook up
Pellik, got to watch your film 2vs1 a few times, if I could shoot like that I'd be ok ! LOL!! Those guys weren't too aggresive, but they did keep ya busy, nice flying! and thanks for posting it !
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
The biggest difference is damage model granularity. In AH1, near misses were scored as hits whereas in AH2 they are scored as misses. This seems to be the biggest problem area for people, and I'm not sure it's possible to ever completely make up the difference through fixing convergence or practicing aim.
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Rgr, i have the prob alot. :(
It gets almost, Indecent, cant think of any other way to say or dumb. People try and try to shoot cons down but now its a miss, not near miss as in AH1 - a hit was a kill, Not a miss. :rolleyes:
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I was wondering how you were feeling after our first "Session" MD? I thought it went very well and I felt like I was able to lay alot of info on the table for ya.
Im just wondering. Thx MD
Dave
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First, thanks for taking the time to hook up with me. Second, ya I really think it helped. It gave me a new way to look at flying. Now If I can just get my head into the game like that, I think I'll do ok.
Tonight in the MA after our DA fun...and it was fun even tho I never layed a shot on ya :) ... I tried to react instead of concintrating on the maneuvers, and I found myself getting into position for shots quicker... still can't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, but I was "there" :) Tailed a 190 till we were both on the deck at stall, and I opened up on him from about 50 feet out and cut him in half, he just couldn't shake me, because I reacted to him.
Now its time to practice :)
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i was told that you have to aim a bit higher on the target now. the rounds will have more of a drop before they reach the target. not sure how accurate this is because i rarely fly fighters, but it wouldnt hurt giving it a try.
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I think so too 101ABN. Was doing some testing off-line... mostly due to all the "you can't hit anyone from a strait 6 shot" posts and complaints..... and using the lead computing site I found that you really have to aim much higher. At 400 yards out you have to aim about half a ridicle (gun site circle) above the target to score hits.
....now if I can only remember that when flying !!!
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Use the tracers to learn to aim. They'll show you if you bullets are going high or low until you get enough of a feel for it. Once you know whether you are aiming high or low or on target without having to use tracers, just turn them off when you fly fighters. No sense in telling the enemy when you're shooting at him.
Try to stick with planes that have similar weapon characteristics until you become a pretty good shot; that is, stick with all planes armed with .50 M2, or all armed with Mauser 20mm or ones armed with Hispano's, or such. The weapons all have different ballistic properties, so if you switch from one to the other there's a bit of re-learning involved.
Use the gunsight to do the actual aiming. Download a gunsight that suits your needs, or make your own. If you use the default one (it's a British sight), there are scans of the training manual on the 'net of how to use it properly although I have lost the specific URL.
Learn to USE your gunsight! I suspect 90% or more of AHers don't actually know how to use their gunsights and just treat it like a boresight. If you learn the nuances of your sight, you will be a better shot.
I do not recommend using the tracers to correct your aim in mid-burst. This will result in you wasting a massive amount of ammo. If you miss, stop firing, re-aim, then take another burst.
You should never have to hold the trigger down for more than a few seconds at a time when firing. The exception to this is if you're making long, slow passes against large targets like heavy bombers or ground targets. The other exception is if you're flying an airplane with extremely weak weapons, like a C.202--then longer bursts may be necessary.
Be aware of your range and weapon placement. If you're flying a plane with wing-mounted guns, be careful to not get TOO close or else you'll miss with half your bullets no matter what. Flying a plane with wing-mounted guns, I generally avoided shooting at less than 50 yards and 100-250 is optimal range. If you're in a plane with nose-mounted weapons, then the closer you get the better.
Experiment with convergence settings until you find something you like. I won't make a recommendation as to convergence; different people have success with different settings.
Be a THINKING shooter. Plan your shots in advance. Do the hard maneuvering before you shoot, so when you fire you have to make only small gentle adjustments.
Reading this stuff is the easy part; doing it takes an awful lot of practice. Just keep trying.
J_A_B
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Murdr has it right. You'll learn those 'site pictures' best with tracers off. The sooner you turn em off the better.
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Wondering if its part of what I'm getting.
I'll be firing on a con seeing NO hit sprites yet bits start coming off him.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Wondering if its part of what I'm getting.
I'll be firing on a con seeing NO hit sprites yet bits start coming off him.
bits or parts? I mean do you actually see little bits or particles?
I know I have witnessed particles/bits coming off ( smaller than a flap, elevator, aileron etc) and am just asking to see if you are seeing the same thing ( this is in regards to another thread)
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Big bits like rudders etc, with NO visible hit-sprites.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Wondering if its part of what I'm getting.
I'll be firing on a con seeing NO hit sprites yet bits start coming off him.
I noticed that for the 1st time over the weekend. I've been flying the Ki and with the superfast firing the clip is even shorter then a yak...but if you land anything usually bogie just poofs...anyway been holding my fire till I'm in the ~200 range...noticed multiple kills with NO hit sprites at all on "Plane form" shots...now I did move from 1024 back to 256 on video...
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yup, a hit is not allweys shown, which is fine IMHO adds a touch to gunnery :)
as for getting batter in hittin.. practice practice PRACTICE :)
im sorry, but there are no short cuts, just keep trying untill its become a 2nd nature.
i fly with tracers OFF, and altough its a pain when you first start it pays of,
i dont know what my hit precentage is (i dump ammo sometimes) but im sure its above 10% or even higher
EDIT: just checked and its on 9.1% and thats WITH dumping ammo :)
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It would nice if we could have a drone offline that would fly straight and level at a selected distance from your plane, 200-400-500, etc.. I know we have the .target command, if we could have a .plane command. You could make shots at it for practice. Easy to talk about, hard to make a reality.
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A formation of buffs that fly a steady heading and speed with AI guns that fire from 5 to 7 o'clock, 30 deg high and lo would be good for angles on wingtips. And a dancing Tiger would be nice. ;) Until I get a new computer I can only play off-line.
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I wonder, probably not, if you could make offline have the capability for 1 guy to control two different planes or a dot command like .drone [plane] [field] [direction and alt] .
The plane would takeoff and fly a stright course when it's alt would be reached.
Naaaaa, just put your time into 2.01 and things that really need fixing.
No wonder it's bad when I wonder.
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RSLQK186 + fuze = Smartasses :p
Trust me, I'd rather have Two tunable radios first.
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What I don't understand is why planes are so easy to hit in a HO but not on their six. Why is that? My experienced has been that slight evasive maneuvers (stick stirring) is effective enough when someone is on your six oclock. However, stick stirring is pointless in a HO situation, so why is a six oclock tracking shot almost impossible? What makes a HO shot so easy and a six oclock so difficult? It's the same plane profile, isn't it?
Any clues (threads, etc) are appreciated. I have seen this since AH1.
Regards,
Malta
p.s. I nowadays avoid the HO by making the HO'er pull negative g's.
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a six shot isn't that tuff, but you do have to aim higher than you would think. I think the thing that throws everyone off is that you still have to lead the shot to make up for the balistics of the round to drop. In the HO its more of a "spray and pray" type of move, altho there are some who are very good at it. :)
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The closure of the targets might also have some effect on getting hits on HOs vs tracking shots from the 6.
On a HO pass both planes will travel through the bullet stream and your bound to get some hits as the plane travels through the sweet spot of the convergence. In a tracking shot you have to have that sweet spot on target for concentrated hits. Of course this is more relavent with wing mounted guns where convergence is an issue.
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It's a result of the shape of the aircraft. Nose and leading edge of the wings are somewhat flat compared to the rear.
Bullets hitting from behind hit at a very shallow angle, thus bounce off.
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Originally posted by stantond
What I don't understand is why planes are so easy to hit in a HO but not on their six. Why is that?
What makes a HO shot so easy and a six oclock so difficult? It's the same plane profile, isn't it?
you are presented with a bigger target area HO or from the 12 oclock position, vs the 6 oclock, you have even better target area if you are able to fire using a crossing shot or deflection shot vs the HO or 6 shot. the deflection , crossing or even belly shots gives you the biggest target area because you have more plane surface in your crosshair
The Head On or front quarter shot is prob about 10 times easier to hit then trying to get hits from a dead 6 position or near 6 position, because of more visual surface area. In return this makes it to where many of your encounters will not try for anything else, they know how easy it is and do not bother trying for any other shot. They are for the kill with no thought of learning any other capabilitys or manuevers....score dweebs , want their name in lights ( in the text buffer)
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Originally posted by ccvi
Bullets hitting from behind hit at a very shallow angle, thus bounce off.
has this actually been confirmed in AH2? that your bullets really do bounce off of an enemy target?
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"Bullets hitting from behind hit at a very shallow angle, thus bounce off."
That answer explains all that I have seen. However, there is one problem. AH must still have a bug for the ricochet sound the bullets make bouncing off my rear deflector shield.
Both the rear deflector shield and smaller 6 o'clock plane hit area explanations satisfy all that I have seen and filmed, with the exception of bullet sounds from the deflector shield explanation. I used this "game feature" recently. It is quite handy in a dive with an nme on your six. Only when you pull out of the dive are you vulnerable. I would really like to get a front deflector shield!
Regards,
Malta
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Just to clarify and elaborate,
I have filmed and heard the ricochet sounds, but only from 50 cal guns on my six oclock. 20mm's (and larger I suppose) don’t ricochet. So, yes 50 cal bullets do "bounce off" at a distance of 200-600 yards from a dead six o’clock attack but not 20mm’s.
I believe the plane hit area changes as well from the front to the back. I see a lot more rounds passing when fired upon (from the six) by cannon equipped planes. A bit of stick stirring (which I was not doing when confirming some of the six o’clock deflections effect) can really keep cannon fire off you. Not so in a HO.
Looks to me like two effects are combined when attacking from the six o’clock, the ricochet and the smaller hit area. Flying a 20mm cannon equipped plane eliminates one of these effects.
Regards,
Malta