Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: anonymous on October 13, 2004, 03:29:40 PM
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this is no trick. you say yes or no i respect your opinion. i think its a case of few activist acting as if they speak for whole nation. some of the mass grave examiner forensics types from europe who became experts in bosnia are refusing to help with mass grave in iraq because evidence they develop might be used to put hussein to death. what do european think of this? is opposition to any death penalty widespread among european? do you guys think exception should be made in case of hussein with upcoming trial? if you think so ill say it first i respect your opinion. my feeling is this is action and view of anti death penalty leaders trying to make a statement. i could be wrong of couse.
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The state should not have the right to kill its own citizens.
The justice system is too flawed to give life-or-death powers to a judge or group of judges.
That's my opinion.
Daniel
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That's right, the state should only have the right to kill other state's citizens.
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
The state should not have the right to kill its own citizens.
The justice system is too flawed to give life-or-death powers to a judge or group of judges.
That's my opinion.
Daniel
understand your reasons. but if you were mass grave forensic expert would you refuse to aid in work on iraq mass graves because hussein could be put to death by iraqi court?
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It will be conflicting with their opinion what else can they do ?
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Their choice according to their values. I'm sure they'd like to see Saddam imprisoned for the rest of his life, and I'm also pretty sure they have no sympathy for the man.
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well straffo how about their obligation to the truth?
They are refusing to examine the site of a mass murder because the EVIDENCE they gather may be used to put the murderer to death?
Outright stupid and morally irresponsible.
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Here's a hypothetical question: if a foreigner is a fugitive from justice in your country, wanted for autotheft in his country, and the penalty for autotheft in his country is life in prison, will your country extradite him?
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Originally posted by Dowding
Their choice according to their values. I'm sure they'd like to see Saddam imprisoned for the rest of his life, and I'm also pretty sure they have no sympathy for the man.
im certain they have no sympathy. but if hes in jail how long before some poor innocents get taken hostage and beheaded because they wont release sadaam? i can see people worried about death penalty mistake. id still work on the mass graves i dont think tech expertise as a forensics guy is going to be the nail in the coffin of any legal defense sadaam has. and in his case he isnt some carjacker who killed someone. he could actually be a cause of serious trouble if alive and in jail even for rest of his life.
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Pretty sure of themselves eh? I mean... how do they know that the sadman did it? He might be proven innocent with their help and thus avoid a death penalty.
If he is innocent then they are helping to get him killed by not investigating.
lazs
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Extradition treaties already exist with the US.
Article 7 of the UK-US treaty covers the death penalty, stating that:
"the executive authority may refuse extradition unless the Requesting State provides an assurance that the death penalty will not be imposed or, if imposed, will not be carried out".
Evidence is a means to an end. If you don't agree with the end, you withold your services. These forensic experts are following a precedent already enacted by the UK, as demonstrated above. So what is your point?
Moreover, when working on the war crimes sites in Bosnia, the evidence was to be used in the Hague under UN auspices. The legal procedure was fully detailed, tried and tested. I'm not sure you could say the same about any trial of Hussein.
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Originally posted by OIO
well straffo how about their obligation to the truth?
They are refusing to examine the site of a mass murder because the EVIDENCE they gather may be used to put the murderer to death?
Outright stupid and morally irresponsible.
Their moral obligation is conflicting also I agree , but you say it's "Outright stupid and morally irresponsible" it's according to your view not their as they have made their choice.
See this more like another case of : two wrong won't never made a right .
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IF he personally (with no doubts ) decided to kill any single person, with no reason (note a cultural difference here. i think we should avoided judgung them by our laws), i'd say he don't deserve to live in peace till the rest of his days.
I'd let him decide - he's working for food in some hard place OR he's refusing to work and just dying because he recieves no food.
That way you can aviod paying for the criminals (your taxes can be used in better ways).
that applies to everyone, not just Saddam... anyway that's the way i see it :)
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"Their moral obligation is conflicting also I agree , but you say it's "Outright stupid and morally irresponsible" it's according to your view not their as they have made their choice.
See this more like another case of : two wrong won't never made a right ."
Gawd you are SO French :D
The way i see it, anyone who refuses to testify in a crime is as responsible as the criminal in the matter.
granted, other 'experts' can be called on to do the job, but those who refused to help the TRUTH come out are simply helping the criminal cover up his crime.
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I don't think they should kill saddam, that may just make him a martyr. Lock him up and let him rot in jail, i doubt he will live too much longer anyway.
The inspectors should be allowed to make their own decision on the matter, and that decision should be respected.
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They have a choice in taking or refusing the job, just like most of us. Their reasons are just that - their reasons.
Put hussain in front of the World Court of Justice, that outta do the trick.
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Evidence is a means to an end. If you don't agree with the end, you withold your services.
It seems selfish to me, IMHO.
What about justice for the victims?
I'm not trying to start a flame fest, I honestly feel those refusing to help are being needlessly selfish.
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If Iraq and or the coalition stated that Saddam would not be executed then the forensic guys would do their job.
As regards the victims, why do you assume that the death penalty is the only method of obtaining justice. Should Iraq or the coalition rule out the death penalty for Saddam they would then be playing their part in obtaining justice for the victims. A life sentence is a just punishment.
The death penalty is barbaric and does a disservice to any country that still uses it.
wipass
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I think you'll be able to find experts somewhere else, their reaction here is probably more political than personal.
Sadaam must go, he will be an indirect threat like it has been stated here above if he is kept alive. I'm usualy not for death penalty... except in some cases, like this one.
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Death penalty? Oh my! :rolleyes: Thanks God, Europe is no more like Far West , Middle and Far East. Simply barbaric.
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I'm euro.
Finding the evidence and meeting out justice should be two separate issues.
I see no moral problem in helping to find the evidence. Lobbying against death penalty can come at a later stage if they so chooses.
Without seeing an opinion poll I'd still guess / believe resistance to death penalty is very widespread in europe since no government applies it. Otherwise it would change.
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Perhaps they're receiving oil vouchers. :cool:
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Perhaps they're receiving oil vouchers. :cool:
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by scout
I'm euro.
Finding the evidence and meeting out justice should be two separate issues.
I see no moral problem in helping to find the evidence. Lobbying against death penalty can come at a later stage if they so chooses.
Without seeing an opinion poll I'd still guess / believe resistance to death penalty is very widespread in europe since no government applies it. Otherwise it would change.
Perhaps has there is no death penalty in europe because living in europe is punishment enough?
Sir you have been found guilty you must now live in europe for 10 years before you shall be eligible for parole...........*gasp*......NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Boohoohoo Boohoohoo.
Off he goes aboard an air bus product.
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I say no to the death penalty for a few reasons. The number one is that sooner or later someone will be wrongly convicted and there is no way to "fix" it if the guy has been killed.
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Am I the only one who feels that life in prison is the real barbarism? I believe the death penalty should be used only if the proof is irrefutable.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Am I the only one who feels that life in prison is the real barbarism? I believe the death penalty should be used only if the proof is irrefutable.
lazs
What are you kidding? Roof over head, 3 squares a day, TV, weight room, earn a degree if you choose, drugs are easily accessible. (Here in the U.S.)
They need to bring chain gangs back again.
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I meant real life in prison not 5 years and out. I would also say that the death penalty should be reserved for the worst murders.
I do not believe in parole either or in letting someone loose but then making them a second class citizen who has no voting ritghts and can't own a firearm.
lazs
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Wasn't there a child molestor that went to prison and ended up getting sodomized to death a few years back?
-SW
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child molesters should be humnanely put down... like an animal with rabies. It isn't their fault and I say better luck in the next life.
The liberals would rather continue the torture.
lazs
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As regards the victims, why do you assume that the death penalty is the only method of obtaining justice?
I didn't assume anything but it seems you are assuming that I do.
I respect that people differ on the death penalty and would not impose my opinion on others. "Justice" in Iraq is currently the death penalty. This was determined by the people there.
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yes... that did sound contradictory.... My meaning was that so far as murder goes... only the most coldblooded murderers should be put down...
so far as child molesters go.... they should all be put down. They are incurable and it is a mercy to them and the entire world to simply put them down like a mad dog.... it is very much like rabies and incurable.
lazs
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sorry sholts... that is not the case. we have chemical neutering here also...
There are several things wrong with that. the bioggest is that there are drugs that counteract the effect and some men become immune in any case.
The next is the real problem that it is not so much about getting your nut (so to speak) as it is about the power over someone. they will continue to molest even if they are physicaly neutered.
it is in their head and there is no cure.
lazs
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Typical. Decadent self-indulgent Europeans engage in deeply philosophical debates to ensure feeling good about their moral superiority rather than do the right thing when it needs doing....
Why is any of this a surprise after Europes shameful behavior in the Balakns during the last decade... Never again my ***...
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Try opening a window to let in some fresh air Grun. Sounds like you need it. :)
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Nice to see that this all a joke to you guys...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Nice to see that this all a joke to you guys...
What europeans think about the death penalty?
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Oh GS its exactly the same, europeans wringing their hands and refusing to do the right thing in favoir of indulging in deep philosophical debates about how morally superiour they are...
But hey that doesnt cost them a thing and theyt feel good about it so why not...
The idea that yiu wont investigate these horrid mass graves and maybe give some comfort or closure to these lost lives and bring their stories out to the light beacuse you oppose the death penalty is is just so decadent and smug and selfish...
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Europe already has forensic examiners working in Iraq source (http://www.inforce.org.uk/news_items.htm) so lets not get too hysterical.
Personally, if any expert has concientious objections then they shouldn't be forced nor demonised because of it.
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Originally posted by Chortle
Europe already has forensic examiners working in Iraq source (http://www.inforce.org.uk/news_items.htm) so lets not get too hysterical.
Personally, if any expert has concientious objections then they shouldn't be forced nor demonised because of it.
hope you werent talking about me getting hysterical. never doubted some from europe were helping the ones that chose not to i was surprised. usually people that see death as close up as those guys have tend not to look at things like most activist. tougher to remain detached i guess. like i said before i dont hold anything against them if they that against death penalty just that reaction from that type of person surprised me a little.
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No I was referring to the post before mine, sorry for any confusion.