Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Am0n on September 25, 2001, 08:42:00 AM
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Is there any special qualities that sets this aside from other planes? seems to be just another average BNZ plane to me.
Does it accell at anything better than other air craft?
How would you compare a f4 and the f6?
I havent read anything at all on the boards about it and was just wondering if it was any good at'll
I figure anything called a "hellcat" should be a mean machine! :D
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One of the best in the hellkitty is mathman. He is flying Bish now.. if ya see him give him a yell he can point out the finer side of flying the kitty.
The basics.. flown against E type aircraft this is an excellent angles plane. Against angles planes this is an excellent E plane.
It will turn slightly better than a F4U but doesn't quite have the top end the hog has. Tho it is a very stable gun platform and 6 .50s are just awesome ;) :)
Flown against a Hog it should excel in a turn fight at lower speeds and low alts. Its E can be surprising to its opponants.
S!
Rocket
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She dives like a dream. She'll outdive just about any plane in the short term, and you still get decent response over 500mph. She seems to hold E a little better than the Hog, but I could be mistaken. The Hog will out roll the Kittie.
The Hellcat isn't all that bad, I'm 12/7 in her this tour, and I am not a great stick. :)
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Ill have to check it out when i get home. (at work) Ive rarely seen people flying it so i thought that it was a bad air craft. Although i really love the roll rate of the F4, it can really get you out of a jam if you treat it right, UNLESS ROCKETS FLYING A F4 on your 6!! :mad: lol
But being able to retain more energy is a mayjor plus. Can it turn as sharp as a corsair at high speeds? thats got to be one of the nicest/overlooked things about the F4. Having that has gotten me out of some serious trouble.
just recently during a raid on a enemy base, i found my self alone with 2 spits and a 109.. it quickly turned into a dog fight because they were all over me and i had no other choice but to shoot my way out. They ended up on my 6 @ around 1+k each, i promptly dove hard and at 450+ they had pulled closer i yanked the stick back hard, my wing growled like a bear but i shot up like a missle rolled to a new heading and leveled out at the celing of it flipped over and left them all sucking my fumes, i got away.
thanks for the info guys, sounds like a mean machine to me already. Im sure its not called a hell cat for nothin!
More input is welcome of course, i like to know my air craft in and out if possible.
Rocket i think you owe me another shot at you F4 vrs F4. u smoked my 205 twice and i came back in a F4, got gunned and when i returned couldnt find ya again.. its only fair! :D
you can really make that thing move, good flyin <S!>
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I don't think she has quite the instantaneous turnrate that the Corsair has, but she can turn a bit longer than the Hog. I've seen Mathman do things in a Hellcat that I just didn't think possible, though. :)
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I've been flying the Hellcat for a couple tours now and have had a little bit of success. Most people would probably tell you to fly the hellcat like a Jug that can turn. I seem to be able to out turn most E fighters and if anything can dive away from most angle fighters as long as you have some alt.
The plane that gives me a lot of trouble in the hellcat is the George since it has an edge in the turn fight I think and seems to have comparable speed. Hellcat is a great plane as long as you keep your SA about you since it doesn't have the pure speed to get you out of a jam.
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f6f is a great plane except against a n1k since at low alt the n1k outclimbs,outaccelerated,outruns,outturns, and outguns the f6f
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If you have a few K of altitude, the Hellcat will escape from the George with a 0G dive to very high speed. That's about your only "out" card. The George is definately the most dangerous plane to the Hellcat, specifically for it's excellent accelleration. Your the E fighter vs. the George, but it's accelleration means that your E advantage will vanish very quickly. If you have a decent E advantage you can make 1 pass on a George, maybe 2, then it's time to bug out.
I love the Hellcat, it's a great little E fighter and it can turn some. It's the best accellerating single engined plane in the US stable. It dives very well, and accellerates in a dive at what must be one of the best rates in the game. One other thing the Hellcat has going for it is it's toughness. It's almost as tough as the Jug, and it will get you home many times when lesser planes would be fluttering to earth in bits.
The ticket with the Hellcat is E and hiding it. It's an E fighter and a damn good one, but you really need an E advantage at the start of a fight to expect to win. The Kitty can turn some, but she only really turns well if you can afford to burn up some E to do it. The best way to engage in the Kitty is to shallow dive into combat to gain speed, and level out nice and early so you "hide" your speed. I'll also not head directly for the enemy if I've got more E, I'll angle off him a bit as we approach to cut down the closure speed. You want to come in slightly lower but faster than him, and manage your closure as you approach so that he mis-judges your energy state. If you can accomplish that, you've all but won.
BTW, if you are getting hassled by La7's, the Hellcat is a great ride. It's my La7 killer. :) It will out-turn the La7's and for some reason they never seem to expect that. If you can get close to them in terms of energy state, you'll eat 'em up. The second they try to dive away you can eat their lunch. The La7 will escape eventually, but for the short term in a dive the Hellcat will gain fast and get you close enough for a shot. In the early stages of a dive, the Hellcat may be the best in the game, so use that to surprise folks who think they can run away from you in their "faster" planes. The guys in F4Us, P-51s, P47's and FW's will under-estimate your diving ability most times and when they try to dive away you eat them. Just make your shots count, because once you are level on the deck, the faster planes will start to pull away fairly quickly.
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Maybe Mathman could response to this one. I had a couple extremely good fights with him in the past whith me in a 109G6 (he mostly won those fights) and he in the Hellcat. He's been flying it for a couple of tours and is very good in it.
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Ive noted one great thing about the hellcat, extremly accurate stable shot. You can unleash a crazy amount of fire and its right on the money.
Other than that i havent had much success in it, more than like not flying it right. I dont have much success at all BnZing so thats probably got something to do with it.
I just read all i can on the boards and bug you people to death with silly questions and eventualy ill get the hang of it.
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Originally posted by Am0n:
Ive noted one great thing about the hellcat, extremly accurate stable shot. You can unleash a crazy amount of fire and its right on the money.
Other than that i havent had much success in it, more than like not flying it right. I dont have much success at all BnZing so thats probably got something to do with it.
I just read all i can on the boards and bug you people to death with silly questions and eventualy ill get the hang of it.
the DHog, Hellcat, DPony and Jugs have wonderful armaments. 6 (or 8 for the Jug) 50 cals are nice. Great rate of fire, and most all those rides are stable platforms when firing. You hit at convergence with these puppies, and your target will come apart. :)
You probably just need more practice BnZing. I'd suggest getting Leph or another trainer to show you some tactics/ACM and how/when to apply them. Because just coming in hard, firing, then extending won't work unless the bandit is occupied or just not paying attention. Leph would be a good choice as he flies Jugs and Hellcats quite a bit.
:) This is what this forum is for. To ask questions so that you learn and enjoy the game more.
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Am0n = Rookie
What is a George?
:P
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George = N1K2
or as mispronounced in AH Niki, which drives Pryo nearly insane to hear. George is the correct and historical term for this AC :)
s!
Rocket
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Hi Am0n. "George" was the US code name for
the Kawanishi N1K fighter. In Aces High we have the N1K2-J version of this aircraft.
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Kawanishi N1K2-J
Shiden('Violet Lightning') - Kai(modified)
to be exact.
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I guess I should chime in here.
First, thanks for the kind words, but I really am not that great in the Hellcat. I just fly it a lot. I can rattle off a ton of names of guys who can beat me in the Hellcat (Deja, Booky, Zig, Fester, Chead... the list is very long).
Second:
I personally feel that the Hellcat is one of the best planes in the game. It can carry a good load, has decent range and performance. I prefer it to the D Hog (which is a great plane too) for almost every mission. This is probably just personal preference.
It really is a slow Jug that can turn, but I don't know that I really fly it like that. While some may call it a jack of all trades, master of none, it really excels at combat air patrol situations. It is a great fleet defender and field CAP plane.
Speed is almost more important in this plane than alt. I would rather go into a fight at 10k going 300mph+ than be at 15k moving at 200mph. Also, though it is slow, it has a fantastic dive. It handles well, though I rarely am able to exceed 450 (and if I do, not by much). What really makes the dive great is that it holds onto the speed it built up in the dive fairly well.
There are two things that really make it a killer, IMO. One, it is a very stable gun platform. Two, the guns themselves. You really can't beat 6 50's for fights (though 4 Hispanoes are pretty damn good too).
One of the best attributes is its durability. I almost don't care if I get hit once or twice. The plane can usually take it (particularly if it is hit with MG rounds - cannons are a different story)
All that being said, the best advice I can give is to practice in it. Not necessarily the high-speed characteristics. You need to get used to how it handles around 200-250. Get a feel for when it is going to depart and spin. Learn how to get out of a spin fast. When you do that, you can almost get to the point where you can use the spin to your advantage. Makes it easy to force the overshoot (provided you don't get hit while you are flip-flopping about the sky).
Of course, all the above may be null and void with the introduction of 1.08 soon. They are fixing the flight model, particularly the stall modelling.
Also, if I am online and you need help/pointers/whatever, feel free to ask. I am more than willing to help the disciples out. :)
-math
- I feel like I should mention the N1K2 and how to deal with it in the Hellcat. Don't, unless you have to or feel that you can get away clean if you miss your shot. Once you get practiced and some success in the F6F, take one or two on. I have found that many George pilots believe the hype about it and feel like they are invincible in it. They often get too aggressive. They overshoot, they don't seem to turn as well at high speed. Just be smart about you approach to the Niki and you should be able to beat it, or at least force him to run, which, is, IMO, as good as a kill.
[ 09-28-2001: Message edited by: Mathman ]
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Thx Mathman.. I saw ya on last night but i didnt want to bother you with it. I will next time though. :p
I love this plane first off, been flying it for 3 days constantly with only taking a feww breaks to fly the old Spit to get my confidence back up.. BnZ is truely a art.
A LA7 gave me a new wall paper for my work PC, how kind ya know? he was a good 10k below me, i thought he had to see me i was persuing hi and not giving up my alt. Heading in the same direction he started a very steep climb and leveled out 1.4k in front of me, i was already diving at this point. The closer i got the more i thought he was going to sudden break turn on me, doom on him he climbed to my alt and leveled out with me closing at 450-500 mph on his six.. what a nice desk top that made. :D
One thing i dont understand is how easily the wings break when trying to climb fast in this plane, im used to atleast getting a warning "groan" from the wings, these puppies just snap. That happened a good 4-5 times in a few hours of play. The last few times i wasnt pulling hard and wasnt going over 400 mph. very odd, dunno how these pilots made it home in RL if this is modeled correctly, one sudden jerk and you got no wings.
Mahtman could you tell me some maneuvers that the F6f excells at? Its got a extremely nice sustained turn rate, even at high speeds. So i know this kitty can really move if you know how to move it!
Also its climb ability is unbeivable, with just the slightest angle it can get a lot of lift.
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Ah Zig.. you hit it on the head in regards to the Hellcat and the La-7. Every time I read a thread about how uber the La-7 was, my first thought was "this person does not fly the hellcat". What I truly enjoyed was having an La-7 blow past me on the over shoot and try to come full circle to engage me again. A 50mph slower hellkitty can turn at the same rate in a considerably smaller circle giving you one hell of a prolonged deflection shot on the La-7. Mmmmmmm... tasty.
The N1K2 is a different story. Sometimes I find that people believe the hype and think they can out zoom the F6F in an N1K2 even thought the hellcat came in with considerably more E. The old hammerhead was one of my favorite N1K2 killer moves while flying the hellcat.
Against the spit... the 6 .50's are just too much. It would instantly severe spitty wings turning them into a fireball.
The F6F is simple to fly (as proven by the fact that I did well in it). Once you figure its stall departure out, the plane is a dream.
Oh.. if you do fly it... get used to LW planes running from you. Actually... get used to most everything running from you :)
AKDejaVu
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Just hope they try to dive away Deja. :D Nothing I love to see better than a "faster" plane trying to dive away from my Kitty. Meat on the table.
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Hellcat is the ride for me.. for the past week ive flown it exclusivly and i have to say this is buy far my favorite AC. Before this i was soley flying the F4U and i have to say the numbers dont lie. (dont laugh been playing AH for a month, flight sims in general)
Aamon has 13 kills and has been killed 62 times in the F4U-1D.
Aamon has 29 kills and has been killed 57 times in the F6F-5.
Ok you can laugh i dont mind :D
Still much to learn obviously, but thank you all for your help. :cool:
(ohh ya forgot to mention, i have no idea what i was doing to break the wings so much, but i havent had the problem since.)
[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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AmOn, I never broke the wings of any fighter before no matter how many G's I pulled, so I did some testings...
the only way i mannaged to do it, was when rudder was not exacly centered.
in fact, if you pull hard G's with rudder centered you'll never break any wing, BUT try pulling hard, build G and then put in a lot of rudder and the plane snaps like a tree branch when a rhino climbs it.
Pretty much the same for the other A/C.
Bozon
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Thanks Bozon
Sounds correct to me, i cant recall exactly the way i was handling the stick at the time, but more than likely pulling the rudder.
When you say centered do you mean center buy not turning the rudder, or not centered buy trim?
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Well if you guys are easily beating LA7's with the F6 then you must be fighting some real crap LA7 pilots :)
All an LA7 pilot has to do is crawl on top of you and wear you down, oh wait that involves some ACM knowledge :)
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214thCavalier
That only applies if you fall for his trick, dont follow energy killing maneuvers and you do just fine. f6f is a LA7 killing machine for sure.
Bozon
after trying out what you said the wings still do break, i tested it my self flying level at 400+ mph, pull up hard and *Snapp!*
i havent lost a wing since i first noted it in the discussion so its not realy a issue, but i just wanted to let you know that they do indeed break with or with out rudder action.
Lephturn
Originally posted by Lephturn:
Just hope they try to dive away Deja. :D Nothing I love to see better than a "faster" plane trying to dive away from my Kitty. Meat on the table.
On the money.. i thought about ya last night and kinda laughed to my self after a LA7 that i sixed tried to dive from me around 20k. i was at 700 back when he dove, and i crawled right up his rear and blasted him.. boom boom dead. :eek:
Funny enough he probably didnt even check six due to being able to dive from just about any one any time.
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Err Amon when you improve them stats and spend as much time in the F6F-5 as i have then come tell me how it performs.
Personally i fly the F6 about 95% of my time in AH for all sorties, my kills also dont come quickly from endless low level vulching like many others as i prefer a fight rather than a slaughter.
Who knows maybe my play time does not coincide with the enemy LA7 dweeb flyers that give away easy kills or mebbe i am just crap.
Its also a cold day in hell before i give anybody a chance at roping me and my F6.
Any LA7 flyer worth talking about will know that his ride eats the F6 for level speed, acceleration and climb rate, nothing else matters, turn rates dont count at all and they really should be aware of how good the F6 accelerates early in a dive.
And lastly i have never ever snapped a wing off manouvering with or without a full loadout. If your doing so then its not the aircraft at fault but your rough handling of it, exceeding G limits will kill a real aircraft just as quick.
Although i do note you say you have now overcome this problem.
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finnaly the F6f god has arived, all bow at his feet..
Cavalier
Not once did i tell you how to fly the F6F, or how it proforms. i told you how to counter the lamer manuever you were talking about. Other than that i spoke to you not.
Ive bagged more LA7's in the F6F then any other AC ive flown, probably all rookie dweeb huh??
Where were those rookie dorks when i was soley flying the F4 a week prior to this??
They sure flew like pros then.
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Kinda off the "help" topic..
My oh my, they really done a number on the F6F.. i couldnt belive it, turns like a dream.
this changes everything :D
You guys get a chance to check it out?
I noticed you did Mathman, i saw you say "YOU CAN BREAK TURN NOW WITH OUT SNAP ROLLING!! :)"[/i]
which told me that you was more than content :cool: (and correct indeed!!)
then i saw the "Victory 2 by Mathman" and i knew i had to land the F4 and get that F6 air borne, because all i seen in the sky was 262's and if you landed 2 kills, had to be doing somehting right :D
Being less skilled than your self i wasnt so fortunate, didnt get much productive flight in it due to all the 262's about, but everyone was having a blast flying them so i wont complain at'll.
I Did try out some basic flight manuevers in it (F6) around 15-20k and i was more than impressed.
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Yes, I am a very happy camper now. With the new stall model, it is now much easier to fully display the Hellcat's fangs.
A few things I noticed concerning the F6F with the new release:
1: Breaks when getting bounced are much nicer now. No more snaprolling (at least when you have decent airspeed).
2: The Hurri has the potential to be a real Hellcat killer. It turns better and the cannnons just shred the plane to pieces. The best thing to do against it is to hit and run.
3: The 262 is only a threat if you let it surprise you. Only times I was killed by the 262 while in the Kitty last night was in a furball where I wasn't paying attention.
4: Maybe I was just flying it faster because of all the 262's so I didn't notice it before, but the F6F tends to get a little mushy at very high speeeds. This is probably kind of a good thing. It keeps me from ripping the wings off.
5: After flying it with the stall, I found that I wasn't using it's max turn because I was so used to the stall.
More to come am sure.
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OK Am0n you may now arise from your knees :)
But to be serious the best place to fight from is above the enemy, especially if you have better climb rates and speed and enemy can turn better.
You meet an LA7 who exploits these facts and you are going down.
Its for this reason the later war aircraft went for speed and climb rates rather than turn ability, turns dont count for crap if the enemy can keep regaining the high ground at will.
WW2 spit V's could out turn the 190a5 all day long when it appeared on the scene, only problem is the spit V's were getting slaughtered because the 190A5 used this technique.
This is why i say the easy kill LA7's people have referred to are probably newbies and dweebs looking for what they think of as the best plane for an easy ride.
Anyway if you consider a plane fighting from above a lamer manouver then that will be a problem for you.
It would be a lame manouver to try and follow him yes but the trick is to keep enough E to counter it when needed.
With the F6 if you can practice E saving techniques during a fight which means reducing or eliminating energy sapping yanking and banking and wasted flat turns then you really can surprise and beat many other aircraft.
Regarding the tone of my earlier post i guess having flown competitively on other sims ladders my pride kinda rebelled at you telling me how to counter the most obvious of moves.
Was not a good night for me as the wife just came in saying she put the car in garage and decided it was not in straight so backed it out and managed to put a small dent in it. Having gone outside and inspected the small dent i was fekd to see she had actually dragged the whole front wing along the garage door frame succesfully stoving in the complete wing.
That was not a good time to post any replies to the BBS.
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cavalier
NP atll, bad time for my self. I try not to flame flames but it was as i said a bad time for me.
I actually deleted what i wrote several times, you got the "toned down" copy, because i was really not that angry with you.
I just get tired of the negativity around the internet, the lack of negative people is what really pulled me to this community. As a former die-hard 3d shooter gamer, all i was surrounded with was pre-pubesant 13 year olds who know nothing about life and want to start things with everyone.
As far as your attacking method you speak of, very effective vrs the "fur balling" types. They seem to think noting but "kill kill kill" so they make silly moves like climbing to get the adversary right above them.
In that situation i would lean towards the defensive role and make no move at them. Let them dive on you and counter it. Also hope that they turn and try to persue so i can turn the table and bleed your E. Being a good pilot with a good sense of fighting in the sky, you wouldnt fall for it, but most would.
another thing in this situation you could do is ask your self "What the heck am i doing flying lower than a LA7 anyway???"
One of my problems is i always go to where the fur balls are, and end up fighting 6 to 1 odds.. bad for me, my mechanic hates it :D
As of now with the new F6F flight model i am certain it can contend with the LA7, and almost every other plane.
PS: dont you love how women only "dent" or "bump" things. :rolleyes:
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All I have to say is, I AM TOO DAM HAPPY WITH NEW F6F. 1.08 has made this beast wonderful :D It can now do a full loop without a hint of the wingstall.
Ofcourse, I have to say that I still will not encourage fighting with it at a speed less than 200 or greater than 300. 200-300 IMHO is the best operational speeds for the F6F.
Other than dinking around in the new planes, if I and taking a MG plane the F6F is it.
BTW, you guys want to tell me how you kill those pesky la7's? I still seem to have a problem with them, but I don't have problem with Niki, which I know tht is backwards to what you said above. lol, maybe my flying is totally backwards :eek:
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Booky,
I had a bit of luck in the F6F against an N1K2 today. I don't know if the results are repeatable, but the guy just kept his speed up above about 250 and I was able to stay with him through it all including hard grey/black out turns, vertical maneuvers and scissors. We just kept this up for about 2 minutes and i simply reeled him in and sawed his wing off. It's possible that he could have gotten slower and done some kind of spiral and lost me, but he didn't even try. At high speeds, the F6 is now very agile and OH so forgiving!
CJ
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Booky
One thing that i have noted with the new F6F is the turning ability using flaps is awesome, you dont need to apply much stick at all to make tight turns at low speeds.
I wont give much more tips than this, i had a REAL bad weekend in AH, saturday morning/afternoon was hell in Rook land and we paid the piper. At one point it was 60-80-40 (us being 40) and the bish/knights were not holding back from double teaming us. That seemed to set the tone for the whole weekend until late sunday night.
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At high speed the F6 has always out performed the N1k, that is nothing new.
The N1k aeleron roll at High speeds is nowhere near as good as the F6's. Hi speed low G scissors are a good way to work an advantage or to engineer an escape route vs the N1k.
Best way to fight the N1k is from above they can be roped same as all the others, keep your E advantage and be prepared to kiss him goodbye before it equalises.
As for the flaps i avoid them like the plague and always have, maybe I am too used to the old F6 but its always been a case of the added lift (if any) was not worth the loss of E that follows.
As for killing La7's Booky i still say the best way is to shoot the ones that dont see you :)
If your lucky enuf to find one and you have the E advantage best way is keep your speed HI and make a run at it, if you get a hit fine stay and play, if not keep running :)
If you dont make it count very quickly they will very quickly gain the E advantage.
As Aamon is finding out (1 - 7 v LA7) 1 lucky kill of an La7 who never see's you does not make the F6 an easy LA7 killing machine.
It is possible to beat or at least hold your own in a prolonged 1v1 v LA7 (even pre 1.08)but if that pilot knows how to fight then your gonna sweat staying alive.
Currently I am 7 - 3 v the LA7 in my F6F-5 so I must be doing something right, but i would never claim its easy :)
[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: 214thCavalier ]
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Do check it out Cavalier, i was able to work a LA7s E down and stay on his 6 for a good amount of time using the flaps to out turn him, eventualy after numerous pings he stalled out and crashed.
Then again could be back to the old argument of pilot quality, if he was a less better stick than me, then hes a free kill for all!! :D
I my self didnt use them before so i cannot argue if they changed the ability to turn or not, i know one thing for sure they sure help when making loops at low speeds.
Im interested to here some of the Vetern pilots perceptions of the new F6.
Have you got a chance to fly it much since the new version Cavalier?
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Am0n apart from a few flights trying the hurri and mossie, for several tours now i have done nothing but fly the F6F-5.
So the answer is yes i have been trying the new F6F-5 model but no I rarely use the flaps, for the flaps to make any appreciable difference you have to be flying slow enough for blackouts not to be a problem, that in itself is a problem :)
If you can turn hard enough to blackout then using flaps is a waste all it does is deplenish your valuable E.
I shall keep the flaps in reserve for when i am in deep toejame but until then i have no problems looping as Booky seems to or any other move without flaps.
The squad I am in is primarily ground attack, base capture oriented, which tends to destroy your Attack stats but when i fly the F6 as fighter on my own this tour i think i am 28-6 so I figure I am doing ok without flaps so far :)
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier:
for the flaps to make any appreciable difference you have to be flying slow enough for blackouts not to be a problem, that in itself is a problem :)
Good point, and i do agree not to ever use them until you have got your self in that bind.
And indeed that is MY problem. :D
Trying to break my self of that horrible habit of chasing people when i should just keep my E and extend for another attack.