Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Mister Fork on October 14, 2004, 01:50:38 PM
-
This is from Shane's Earl's Millers posting:
1st Lt. Joe H. Canion of the 345th Fighter Squadron was climbing out in weather as #3 (element leader) when he got in the propwash from #2 (wingman to flight leader) when the wingman moved from left to right wing unexpectedly during a left turn.
Canion's P-47D flipped upside down and into a spin. He bailed out at 1500 feet over Valentano, landing near the aircraft. The aircraft's bombs were not armed and the pilot was ok.
Is it safe to assume that propwash close up could have drastic effects on your aircraft - i.e. cause it to flatspin/stall out?
-
I'd like to see it modeled and I gave a quick and dirty description of a crude method to do so given the limits of home computing power in the old AH2 Beta forum.
-
Wonder how prop wash will effect trying get a gun solution?
Crumpp
-
I guess if that your really close on a guys 6, propwash will make it hard if not down right impossible to get a good snapshot, especially buffs.
-
Originally posted by Mister Fork
I guess if that your really close on a guys 6, propwash will make it hard if not down right impossible to get a good snapshot, especially buffs.
one of the things I remember from taking flying lessons way back when, was when the instructor had me turn a nice easy circle at night. He had me hit my own 'wake' so to speak. I knew it when I hit the disturbed air I'd created.
It would be a much bigger issue for the bomber drivers as the real life guys fought prop wash all the time in those formations.
Dan/Slack
-
Propwash has largest effect in medium ranges. If you get near enough the target you're actually in calmer area.
Quote from the Finnish Air Force tactics lecture, 1943:
Shooting
Pay attention to the following points:
1. Always keep both eyes open while shooting.
2. Don't jerk the plane around with sudden movements during aiming; handle it smoothly and gently instead.
3. Don't get carried away while shooting, and keep an eye on your six, so that nobody can get behind your tail.
4. Never use tracers to aim. You can check your lead by tracers, but always correct your aim with your gun-sight.
When shooting from dead six, it is best to get about 20 meters from the enemy, where the prop-wash that was shaking your plane earlier settles down. It is like getting from "heavy seas" to a calm "backwater".
Source:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html
-
Unless you've been through it, its difficult to appreciate the adverse affect that prop wash, slipstream, and wingtip vortices have to the flying qualities of your airplane. At the very least, the turbulence is enough to spoil a guns solution. At its worst, it can send your airplane into uncontrollable flight or even structural failure. I'll refer to the American Airlines A-300 whose vertical fin snapped off as the pilot tried to recover from the instability caused by flying through another airliner's slip stream. I had a flight instructor who crashed twice as a result of flying through a P-3C Orion's propwash - once during final approach and once during taxying. The second time ended his flying career as the airplane lifted off the ground and landed inverted. Both aircraft were destroyed.
At the close-in distances that we fly in AH2, modeling the prop wash would make for a rather unsatisfying flying experience.
MiG
-
"GOOSE I CANT PULL OUT!"
-
I would like to see prop wash modelled, most definately.
-
Originally posted by CMC Airboss
I had a flight instructor who crashed twice as a result of flying through a P-3C Orion's propwash - once during final approach and once during taxying. The second time ended his flying career as the airplane lifted off the ground and landed inverted. Both aircraft were destroyed.
At the close-in distances that we fly in AH2, modeling the prop wash would make for a rather unsatisfying flying experience.
MiG
Would bring a new meaning to the term KILLSHOOTERED.
-
I would like to see prop wash modelled, most definately.
Me too. Pilots had to deal with it RL. If this is a simulation then lets simulate it!
Crumpp
-
Heh, I flew through the jetwash from two A-10's last week and about crapped my pants. I could have swore that they were at a lower alt than I was at the time that ATC advised me of the wake turbulance. I was flying level at 6500 and they must have been climbing fast because it wasn't another 20 seconds and I hit a nice jar. Was kind of fun though, not to mention the UFO that we seen a little later just south of Phoenix, even ZAB didn't know what it was but they did ask us if we seen it since they showed a radar return with no altitude signal (no transponder). Since when do flying objects have two bright ars orange lights instead of common regulation lights?
-
Problem with those kinds of effects is that it can put a real strain on a computer to model it with any kind of realism. Look at X-plane for an example of a sim that has to somewhat cut back on graphics, because the modelling is already pushing your system's limits.
-
Originally posted by Tails
Problem with those kinds of effects is that it can put a real strain on a computer to model it with any kind of realism. Look at X-plane for an example of a sim that has to somewhat cut back on graphics, because the modelling is already pushing your system's limits.
Frequently such things can be "faked" without losing much fidelity and without putting the strain of actually simulating the effect on the computer.
I'd need to know more about how prop wash actually behaves, but I think I can see a comparitively cheap, for the processor cycles, way of faking it.
-
YES!
g00b
-
Only if prop dry is also modeled. We already have prop spin.
-
Originally posted by Raptor01
"GOOSE I CANT PULL OUT!"
LOL! I remember the movie call "Top Gun" and F-14 was in trouble because Jet wash. LOL
-
RAFE35, Jet wash is nothing to laugh at.
Recently I was landing (737) behind a 747-400 which had departed maybe 1 minute before we got to the threshold. As we entered the flare we entered the jet wash and the aeroplane rolled very rapidly over to about 25 degrees before we could correct it. At 10 feet thats not something you want to happen.
Jet/Prop wash is a very, very common occurence.
Regards
-
Originally posted by FTJR
RAFE35, Jet wash is nothing to laugh at.
Recently I was landing (737) behind a 747-400 which had departed maybe 1 minute before we got to the threshold. As we entered the flare we entered the jet wash and the aeroplane rolled very rapidly over to about 25 degrees before we could correct it. At 10 feet thats not something you want to happen.
Jet/Prop wash is a very, very common occurence.
Regards
An 737 rolling 25 degrees from jetwash? Damn those 747 have some big engines I guess. I personally fear the wingtip vorticies more than the jet/prop wash. I landed about 1 minute after a 737 departed from a parallel runway, and the vorticies had drifted over to my runway and almost pushed me off the runway.:eek:
-
Originally posted by Raptor01
"GOOSE I CANT PULL OUT!"
Let me guess... That's Maverick's wingman flying the F-14A with a messed up P&W T-30 ngines..
:)
-
I can understand wake turbulence from buffs definately spoiling a gun solution. As a student pilot, I hit the wake turbulence from a Cessna Citation on short final. The Piper Cherokee went up on the left wing, and then in a flash, up on the right wing. I never knew it had such a fantastic roll rate! About that time I got it back under control, the tower advised me "caution, wake turbulence..." Of course, it was a long drive home from the airport that day until I could change my pants....:(
-
GOOSE I CANT PULL OUT!"
HAHAHA
-
Originally posted by FTJR
RAFE35, Jet wash is nothing to laugh at.
Recently I was landing (737) behind a 747-400 which had departed maybe 1 minute before we got to the threshold. As we entered the flare we entered the jet wash and the aeroplane rolled very rapidly over to about 25 degrees before we could correct it. At 10 feet thats not something you want to happen.
Jet/Prop wash is a very, very common occurence.
Regards
eek.....me and my big mouth. :eek: