Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Reschke on October 14, 2004, 11:58:46 PM
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As soon as I am able to figure out the problem with my tables I will have the correct down times per the MOTD in the arena. Till then you guys have to live with whats there. Sorry
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Channel Fight:
In order to bring something a little different into the arena I would like to introduce a few different matchups. This is purely a USAAF/RAF/LW matchup with the emphasis being on fighter vs fighter matchups. There will not be any transport aircraft or vehicles in this setup.
This is a prelude to invasion when the Allies started raiding the Luftwaffe airfields all over France. During this time the Allies did everything they could to disrupt supplies for the Luftwaffe and Wermacht stationed in France. The Luftwaffe fought back with everything they could but ultimately it only cost them men and material they could not replace.
CAN YOU MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR GERMANY? CAN YOU CONTINUE THE ALLIED AIR SUPERIORITY? ONLY TIME WILL TELL; GIVE IT YOUR BEST SHOT!
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American/RAF based in England only
B-26
P-51B
All P-47's
P-38L
Typhoon
Mosquito
M-16 GV
German
Ju-88
Bf-110G2
Bf-109F
Bf-109G2
Bf-109G6
Fw-190A5
Fw-190A8
Ostwind
Settings:
Field capture: NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! MUWAHHAAAAAAAAA
Downtimes: AAA - 2 minutes, FH/BH/VH - 5 minutes
Fuel burn rate: 1.5
Dar: historical
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looks good... however, the p47d-40 probably doesn't belong, even the d-25 might be pushing it, but...
p-38 shouldn't really be there either, especially the late model P-38L, at this point 38's were still escorting the heavies into deeper germany. The jugs were arriving on the scene but had shorter legs at this point.
no spits? heh... if you add spit9, no big, altho' it'd crimp variety, for sure.
Here's how I'd modify your setup:
(disable formations)
American/RAF based in England only
A-20
B-26
P-51B
P-47D-11, 25
Typhoon
Mosquito
M-16 GV
German
Ju-88
Bf-110G2
Bf-109G2
Bf-109G6
Fw-190A5
Fw-190A8
Ostwind
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More like Fudged alot :p
The P-38L is a '44 aircraft, so is the D-40 and D-25, (the D-11 is for that matter) so is the AH Typhoon.
The A-8 shouldn't be there either.
The Spit 9 should be in. This is a perfect set up for it.
It's a real stretch to call it a '43 set up.
The 51B / G-6 fight should be fun though. Same with the A-5.
If you disable formations on the 26 you just encourage folks to fly them as a fighter. If you do that then why not just add the A-20.
But what do I know...
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Probably shouldn't have the 51B as it was barely evident in December of 43.
Bags of Spit Vs and IXs along with the earliest model Jugs and Tiffies escorting Bostons & Mossies of 2 TAF and USAAF B26s to France to try and get the LW 109s and 109s into the air in the war of attrition
scan from a Spit pilot's logbook I have for September 43. It looks the same starting in July and carrys through the same theme into February 44 with Mossies also being escorted along with all those Marauder escorts.
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1097823879_logbook.jpg)
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Weren't those the 'razor back typhies'?
The P-51B is stretching it but that falls into the 'fudging a little' category for a 'late '43' set up.
The D-11 also fits into that as well. But the D-40, D-25, P-38L imho are beyond 'fudging it'.
I don't see why the spit 5/9 would be left out. I guess it doesn't matter with the Bostons. No one will choose it over the B-26. If they do away with formations then the A-20 would be as good as any.
The A-8 is streching it as well only becasue of the 3cm option. If held to 4 x MG151/20mm then if could be 'fudged' in for the A-6/A-7.
With the 2x 3cm its just too much gun for a '43 set up.
Still the G-6 vrs. P-51B was a lot of fun when I used to play AH. In FB the G-14 vrs P51B/C makes up for it. :p
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In terms of performance, there wouldn't be much difference in the Tiffies. The 43 Tiffies would have been the 'car door" types though. I think they introduced the different canopy set up on the Tiffie with the advent of the Tempest which has something similar in 44.
I suppose it makes a person wish for the RAF Mustang Is with their low alt Allisons :)
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Reschke
Till then you guys have to live with whats there.
As a counter to all the nitpickers, I think this will be a lot of fun. Plenty of planes to choose from on either side, no one will be so uber that people will ignore all the others (so please no spit!).
-oldman
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OK!
Sounds like a mass P-47 raid on some rail heads!
“FINALY, The jug has come back to Cherbourg!”
(Said like the WWE wrestler “The Rock”)
Vulch this!:aok
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I almost hate to say this but I have to agree with Shane and Wotox.
If we are going to keep it hysterical er historical It should be the P47B If you wanted to stretch just a bit the P51B is OK. The rest of the USAAF A/C represented shouldn't be there.
If you will include the Spit IX then you may as well exclude all others as the allied players will all be in Spit IX's the whole time.
The A8 is a bit much but not many players will fly it.
I predict a Bf-109F v P-51B week, add a little B-26 fighter trolling for flavor.
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Originally posted by storch
The A8 is a bit much but not many players will fly it.
Oldman LOVES[/b] the A8!!
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Originally posted by Grits
Oldman LOVES the A8!! [/B]
As so Stat and I That still constitutes not many players ;)
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I must admit that the 190A-5 is my favorite Luftwobble ride by a very wide margin, a distant second would be the 109F-4/G-2 (I cant tell them apart when flying them so I put them together) and third would be the 110G. Its not that I dont like the A-8, I do, but those other three planes do virtually everything better than the A-8.
Actually, my very favorite thing to do in the A-8 is blow through a low alt furball cherrypicking engaged spits with HO's and snapshots. :)
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If you want to yank the P-51B then yank the 190A-8 as well. But I'd rather keep 'em.
Agree with adding the Spit V as long as the 109F stays. Though obviously the Spit V's presence will really skew plane selection.
P-38L and P-47D40 just don't belong.
Don't see much need for an A20 if you have the B26.
How can you have a Jabo setup without Lancasters? :D :rofl :lol
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looks great
don't change a thing
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Originally posted by Guppy35
In terms of performance, there wouldn't be much difference in the Tiffies. The 43 Tiffies would have been the 'car door" types though. I think they introduced the different canopy set up on the Tiffie with the advent of the Tempest which has something similar in 44.
I suppose it makes a person wish for the RAF Mustang Is with their low alt Allisons :)
Dan/Slack
i thought the first bubble canopied p47's were taken from RAF typh canopies?
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hope you "unfudge" the planeset.
while ur at it, reduce the dam haze setting... it's overdone, no need for it every setup.
oh, and the fuel burn is a little on the high side, but...
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But the D-40, D-25, P-38L imho are beyond 'fudging it'.
I don't see why the spit 5/9 would be left out. I guess it doesn't matter with the Bostons. No one will choose it over the B-26. If they do away with formations then the A-20 would be as good as any.
The A-8 is streching it as well only becasue of the 3cm option. If held to 4 x MG151/20mm then if could be 'fudged' in for the A-6/A-7.
Gotta agree. Take the late war planes out. Add the Spit IX.
Crumpp
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In another thread shane made the comment that there was no land war in this period of time.
well there were also not to many german fighter sweeps over england either. yet today, once again axis players have to fly to england to get a lame fight in the ack.
you can't make anyone play and if the allied players want to hang around until they have 3:1 numbers before flying I guess that's cool but since we have to cross the channel to fight them anyway we might as well capture a couple of english bases. that's the only time we get good fights from the allied players.
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IMO the best fights in the BoB maps is when the Luftwobbles take a base in Angland.
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P38 is activated u might as well give us the G10 and quit the BS please.
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I'd like to make one very minor request:
Always include the chess piece for each country in the MOTD. I usually just join the side with lower numbers but sometimes want to fly a particular plane and can never figure out which side is which the first time or two that I log in as a neutral.
eskimo
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Cant you just feel the love in here? :lol
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Cant you just feel the love in here? :lol
Nothing personal pal, but I don't want to feel your "love".
:)
eskimo
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Originally posted by Furball
i thought the first bubble canopied p47's were taken from RAF typh canopies?
Nope. Totally different sizes etc. It's kinda like the claim that some USAF B Mustang pilots used Spitfire Canopies on their Mustangs.
Wouldn't have worked. Malcom hoods yes, Spit canopys no.
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I'd like to make one very minor request:
Always include the chess piece for each country in the MOTD. I usually just join the side with lower numbers but sometimes want to fly a particular plane and can never figure out which side is which the first time or two that I log in as a neutral.
eskimo
CC Eskimo I can update that easily. Especially since I put the !90D-9 in there and didn't realize I had it in the setup.
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uhhh why is the 190d-9 enabled? it's not in the set up you listed.
:confused:
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Yeah take out the D-9 and give us the 262... :p
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Nope. Totally different sizes etc. It's kinda like the claim that some USAF B Mustang pilots used Spitfire Canopies on their Mustangs.
Wouldn't have worked. Malcom hoods yes, Spit canopys no.
Dan/Slack
ahh cc, what i read was wrong then.
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I thought this was supposed to be a 1943 setup. Why are there so many mid and late 1944 aircraft in it?
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I thought this was supposed to be a 1943 setup. Why are there so many mid and late 1944 aircraft in it?
Was wondering that myself.....
Crumpp
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If this were a 1943 setup I'd use this list:
Allied:
A-20G
B-26B
P-47D-11
P-51B
Lancaster Mk III
Mosquito Mk VI
Spitfire Mk IX
Axis
Bf109G-2
Bf109G-6
Fw190A-5
Fw190A-8
Ju88A-4
That is a 1943 setup that is fudges a little.
The P-38L, P-47D-25, P-47D-40, Typhoon and Fw190D-9 have no more place in a 1943 setup than does the Me262, Tempest Mk V, Spitfire Mk XIV, Bf109G-10 or P-51D.
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The Typhoon IB (late) which we have in AH2, was in service by the Summer of 1943. That doesnt mean it *has* to be in the setup...(no such thing), but it was in service. It was in service well before the P-51B or the Fw 190A-8 were.
As for the rest, yes, I wont argue with the dates set out for a late 1943 setup, that being said, its not my design.
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Are you sure Squire? There was a thread a while back that suggested the model and markings were for a '44 model. I know nothing about the typhoon and defer to Guppy.
If there was little performance differences or if in fact its the very model that saw service in '43 then great.
You might just call it a '44 ETO. :p
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The markings are for a 44 model, yes.
Its not cut and dry, the Typhoon IB (late) came into service in early 43, later on it got the bubble canopy (@ early 43), bomb racks (@ summer 43), after that it got the rocket rails (@ October 43).
I have a photo of a Typhoon IB (late) with bubble canopy dated Sept 1943 flown by Wing Cdr Scott, OC Tangmere Wing.
There were 19 Squadrons of Typhoons with the RAF by April 1943, with the # continuing to grow with the RAF and RCAF. It was certainly one of the main combat types the allies deployed prior to D-Day.
Is it a 1943 a/c? absolutely. However, it had many mods done too it in its service life and it depends how picky one wants to get with what exact sub version and mod it had at what time. Thats nothing new for AH a/c though, just look at all the Spit IX threads.
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Great Set Up Karnak.
One suggestion though is too get rid of the FW-190A8. It is a 1944 plane and has no business in a 1943 set up. The first production FW-190A8 jagd-einsatz's did not roll off the production line until March '44.
Good planeset, bro!
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Karnak
If this were a 1943 setup I'd use this list:
The only problem with that list is the Spit 9. History teaches us that 95% of Allied flyers will fly the Spit 9 if it's enabled. That's fine, but the setup then might just as well be entitled "British Operations Over the Continent, 1943."
- oldman
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Squire,
I know the Tiffie was there and operational in 1943, but it's deck speed just makes it too potent. I guess a better way to do it would be to have the Tiffie, but perked at 20 or 30 points.
Crump,
I know that the Fw190A-8 is a 1944 fighter, but I put it in my list to sub for the Fw190A-6. There has to be an Axis counter to the P-51B, at least to some degree and the speed of the Fw190A-8 gives it a better chance than the other 1943 German fighters. The other option would be to leave out the Fw190A-8 and perk the P-51B.
Oldman731,
I'm not sure how true that is in AH2. Speed matters a lot more and effective long range gunnery is a thing of the past. You may be right though, in which case the Spit IX would need to be perked at 10 or 20 points to keep it rare.
The problem is, if the Typhoon is added as a perk, the Spit IX is perked and the P-51B is perked the Allies then only have the P-47D-11 and Mosquito Mk VI to use as fighters.
The only reason I am complaining about so many 1944 fighters in a ostensibly 1943 setup is that 1943 is my prefered year to see simulated in a WWII European theater sim.
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I know that the Fw190A-8 is a 1944 fighter, but I put it in my list to sub for the Fw190A-6.
I understand and good sub.
P-47D-11 and Mosquito Mk VI to use as fighters.
The P47C and D were the most common fighters in the skies over Europe in 1943.
I don't understand all the Spit fear especially with the Spitfire Mk IX. It's the Spit Vc that is UFOish due to it's overextended time at boost.
I would put the Spit IX in unperked.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
I understand and good sub.
The P47C and D were the most common fighters in the skies over Europe in 1943.
I don't understand all the Spit fear especially with the Spitfire Mk IX. It's the Spit Vc that is UFOish due to it's overextended time at boost.
I would put the Spit IX in unperked.
Crumpp
There is something to what Crump is saying. I'm a Spit fanatic, but right now I'd take a Spit V over the IX anyday. It sure seems like we've got an LFVc which performs better then the FIX at the alts that the fights normally occur.
Typhoon IB went operational with 56 Squadron in May 1942. 56 had recieved it's first Tiffies in September 41.
I don't know exactly when they got the bubble canopy to replace the car door version. Photo evidence shows the car door version in official photos taken in the summer of 43.
Bottom line is the AH bird is the same beast only it has the bubble canopy. Still a Typhoon IB.
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Oldman731
The only problem with that list is the Spit 9. History teaches us that 95% of Allied flyers will fly the Spit 9 if it's enabled. That's fine, but the setup then might just as well be entitled "British Operations Over the Continent, 1943."
- oldman
Umm...er.... yeah.. Give us Spit Vs instead :)
Dan/Slack
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"It's the Spit Vc that is UFOish due to it's overextended time at boost."
The Spitfire V has 5 min of boost compared to 10 min for the 109F-4 or the 190A-4. The only thing UFO-ish is the continued "Roswell" logic we get from the Spit-bashers, who have a new conspiracy every week...
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The Spitfire V has 5 min of boost compared to 10 min for the 109F-4 or the 190A-4.
Really? Did not know that. I thought we had the Merlin 45 (+16 boost) Spitfire Vc. Which according to the POH and this site:
The operational limitations of the Merlin 45 have been increased, the use of 3000 R.P.M. and +16 lb/sq.in. boost being now permitted for periods not exceeding 3 minutes during combat.
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/aa878.html
AFAIK the FW-190A5 benefits from the same engine modeling and operates a lot longer than it should do to the cooling model. It's rating is only 2 minutes at 1.42ata@2700U/min according to the Flugzeug-Handbuch.
In late 1943 / early 1944 it may have been upped to 1.58ata/1.65ata but as AH models the FW-190A5 we do not have that boost pressure.
Crumpp
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Squire is right both the F4 and G2 run at 1.42 and they weren't cleared for that until Nov '43 (source: butch). IIRC they were limited to 5 min at that time.
1.42 ata boost was initialy cleared but then derated and not cleared again until late '43.
You don't hear Spit 5 guys whining about the F-4, G-2 'UFOish due to it's over-extended time at boost'.
The the AH 2 Spit 5 runs at 16lbs and it was cleared for such in August '42. It only runs for 5 min.
The Spit 5 puts up a fun fight...
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I have seen the 3 minute quote for the +16 lbs, which is more than likely what was "official" as the max allowable without risk of engine damage. I have also seen sources that give it 5 minutes.
Now...I will also point out that in Aces High the "computer game", ALL of the engines have a simple "wep" system of: max wep power-overheat-wait for cool off-max wep power system. Either 10 minutes or 5 minutes. In other words, your LW fighters MW50 *NEVER* runs out, ever thought of that?
ALL of them, German , Japanese, British, Russian, American: MW50, Water Injection whatever. So dont go on some "oh I looked and found out that the Spitfires engines doesnt work EXACTLY like in real life so its porked" nonsense. You want 100 percent accurate engine models, fine by me, bring it on.
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Don't be defensive please. I pointed out the correct modeling hurts both sides. I did the math on the Spit Vc.
AFAIK the FW-190A5 benefits from the same engine modeling and operates a lot longer than it should do to the cooling model.
IMO, backed up by calcs, which you can search the BBS for because they have been done Ad nauseaum. The Spitfire Vc in AH zoom climbs to well.
It has a terrific sustained climb, turning circle and fantastic performance while on boost power. In short the Spit Vc was never an energy fighter. It simply does not have the mass to zoom like it does. It does have a great Thrust to Weight for a WWII fighter while boosted, however NONE of the WWII fighters could up end and fly straight up on thrust alone. A few planes could "hang on the prop" for a few seconds at best.
You can check out the minimum acrobatic speeds here:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1098067995_spit23.jpg)
The Spitfire Mk IX was in reality the better performer. In real life the Spit Vc could not sustain that fantastic performance for more than a few minutes. IN AH the Spit Vc is the better performer. If this is a sim, then that needs to be simulated.
Even if that means fixing the engine modeling so be it.
Crumpp
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I get defensive when I see "cherry picking" of the data Crumpp to dump on one plane only. Admit that all the engines have an arbritary wep modelling.
As for the Spitfire series, it was HTCs call to model the Merlin 61 Spitfire IX and not the Merlin 66 model, so if you compare a 1942 Spit Vc to a 1942 Spit F. IX, their low alt #s wont be as far off.
The 109F-4 is both *faster* and has a *better climb*, and yet you still persist in claiming the Spitfire V is over modelled. Give me a break.
No hard feelings Crumpp, its not personal, :), but we strongly disagree Im afraid. When I see real data that shows a Spitfire V in AH2 being faster than a 109F-4 and outclimbing it, I will know there is a problem with its FM.
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Alright, I know I have a long way to go before I'd consider myself "good" in a dogfight these days. So when I was getting my butt kicked in a 109F by a Typhoon .......... in loops no less .......... I just chalked it up to my lack of skill and upped again. After all, its been awhile since I got to fly a 109F and I did start at a disadvantage (
to JB11 for his skills btw ). When he did the same thing to me in a P51B, I have some issues. At 2.5k out he reversed on me and managed a double Immel. Ok so I misjudged his E I thought, but I should be fast enough to stay with him. At just under 200 mph I couldnt get my nose more than 1/4 of the way around following his top loop and I was stalled. I didnt pull more than 3g's trying to follow him. While I managed to stay pretty close to him in the loops that followed, I never managed better than nose to nose coming out and was always on the edge of stall, even though my speed coming out was consistently at 200. I only had 2 minutes of WEP. 2 minutes??? In a 109??? 75% fuel at takeoff (I dont know in AHII if fuel level affects how much WEP you get or not, or to what extent). Now I know I'm not great, and for all I know he may be the greatest of the great. But there's something wrong with that scenario. Besides me lol. Or is a P51B supposed to be able to stay with a 109F pulling loops? Maybe I just need educated.
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sounds like you might have the stall limiter enabled?
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I didnt think of that, I'll have to recheck next time I log in. I went back online and checked out a 109F in the training arena and I found my WEP problem. Its not limited to this plane, and I dont know if its just me or if its a common thing. My engine seems to "hiccup" for lack of a better word. The manifold pressure guage drops and bounces back and it kills my WEP. Its almost like I'm flying a Hurri or Spit with the carburetor cutting out only it doesnt happen at predictable times (like under a high G load or inverted, or under negative G's etc.). I'd heard the engine cut-out thing before, but figured it was a lag issue or something similar. I watched the guages react though, so its something in the game. Is this supposed to be happening or is it a bug? Or is it just me? Of course, I also didnt seem to experience nearly the same problem with stalling in the training arena. So maybe there was something else going on I did in the CT that affected my flying and I wasnt paying enough attention. Ah well.
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As for the Spitfire series, it was HTCs call to model the Merlin 61 Spitfire IX and not the Merlin 66 model, so if you compare a 1942 Spit Vc to a 1942 Spit F. IX, their low alt #s wont be as far off.
You're right, In fact according to the math the Spitfire Vc IS the better performer in many areas while using boost. It is lighter and has a lot of power.
My beef is NOT with its turn, climb, or even it's dive performance.
My beef is the Spit Vc's zoom climb ability SEEMS to be too good. It seems to be able to point it's nose straight up and take off like a missile.
Zoom climb is a function of mass, thrust, and drag. The Spitfire Vc does not have very much mass and is not as aerodynamic as you would think.
The Spitfire IX Merlin 61 has similar power, more mass, and similar drag. It should out zoom the Spit Vc.
So it does not add up why our Spit Vc zooms so well.
Let me caveat this by saying:
This comes from fighting the Spit Vc AND a thread Spit pilots started who noticed the same thing. So it is not just my own opinion based on a few seconds on the calculator.
I have not tested the zoom climb offline. As you probably are well aware connection issues can vary plane performance.
I have to take off on business for a week or so. You guys enjoy this CT setup. I'll see you next week!
Crumpp
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Alright, I know I have a long way to go before I'd consider myself "good" in a dogfight these days. So when I was getting my butt kicked in a 109F by a Typhoon .......... in loops no less .......... I just chalked it up to my lack of skill and upped again. After all, its been awhile since I got to fly a 109F and I did start at a disadvantage ( to JB11 for his skills btw ). When he did the same thing to me in a P51B, I have some issues. At 2.5k out he reversed on me and managed a double Immel. Ok so I misjudged his E I thought, but I should be fast enough to stay with him. At just under 200 mph I couldnt get my nose more than 1/4 of the way around following his top loop and I was stalled. I didnt pull more than 3g's trying to follow him. While I managed to stay pretty close to him in the loops that followed, I never managed better than nose to nose coming out and was always on the edge of stall, even though my speed coming out was consistently at 200. I only had 2 minutes of WEP. 2 minutes??? In a 109??? 75% fuel at takeoff (I dont know in AHII if fuel level affects how much WEP you get or not, or to what extent). Now I know I'm not great, and for all I know he may be the greatest of the great. But there's something wrong with that scenario. Besides me lol. Or is a P51B supposed to be able to stay with a 109F pulling loops? Maybe I just need educated.
go 50% and drop tank
the phoon is beating you with its greater E state - get him low and slow and you'll be able to out turn it
the 51b in the hands of good pilot will give 109f fits - thankfully that is not too many allied pilots :)
ah2 109's are not the ah1 109's - they flugged them up in the name of realism
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In the name of increased revenue :D
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Funny, 109's had combat flaps but not our 109's... if you wanted realism not 1 pony driver with half a brain would attempt to turn fight a 109. It was common knowledge durring WWII that a 109 could out turn a pony but you'll have to go play Il2 if you want to experience that.
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The operational limitations of the Merlin 45 have been increased, the use of 3000 R.P.M. and +16 lb/sq.in. boost being now permitted for periods not exceeding 3 minutes during combat.
The pilot's manual states 5 mins:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/282_1098112418_spitvboost.jpg)
I susp[ect the manual's correct,as 5 mins seems to have been standard for all the wep times on Spits.
The Spitfire Mk IX was in reality the better performer. In real life the Spit Vc could not sustain that fantastic performance for more than a few minutes. IN AH the Spit Vc is the better performer. If this is a sim, then that needs to be simulated.
The problem is AH models the best Spit V, and the worst Spit IX.
The Spit V runs at 16 lbs, the Spit IX at 15 lbs.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/282_1090185578_merlinpowerbydate2.jpg)
As you can see, there's almost no difference in peak HP for the Merlin 61 at 15 lbs (AH Spit IX) and the Merlin 45 at 16 lbs (AH Spit V) (The most common Spit IX had the Merlin 66.)
So peak HP is almost the same, but the Spit V is 800 lbs or so lighter. Of course, at higher altitudes the Spit V has far less power than the Spit IX, but at lower altitudes it should outperform the version AH has.
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So peak HP is almost the same, but the Spit V is 800 lbs or so lighter. Of course, at higher altitudes the Spit V has far less power than the Spit IX, but at lower altitudes it should outperform the version AH has.
Yes that is correct. You can compare their performance here
SpitVc:
Climb
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/aa878climb.gif
Speed
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/aa878speed.gif
Spit IX Merlic 61:
Speed
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/bf274speed.gif
Climb
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/bf274climb.gif
Crumpp