Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Keez on December 06, 2001, 12:30:00 PM
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Hi all,
For quite some time I have flown the Spitfire, and I feel that I have mastered the plane. Well, not mastered, but to a point where I wont get much better with it. So its time for a new challenge.
I want to learn to fly an E-fighter, but I keep having the same problem: when I engage an enemy, I often make sure I dive on their six. They pull away hard to the left or right, and to make sure I do not lose my E-advantage, I pull up, climb, and come back to do it again. After which they will turn away, I will climb, etc. Up to a point where I have lost too much E, and when the enemy pulls away again when I am diving in, I follow him in the turn. I might get a fix once, depending on their plane, but if its a turnfighter I am up against, they always get the better of me. They always turn much better than I do and eventually get on my six. If I am high I can dive down, speed up and extend, but that only keeps me alive. It doesnt provide me with many kills.
So there it is. This is what very often happens when I am in an E-fighter. In my Spitty that is never a problem, I can out-turn most other planes in a spit. So... I feel I cant learn to fly an E-fighter unless someone doesnt tell me what I am doing wrong. Could someone?? Thanks in advance.
Edit: topic typo.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Keez ]
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Somebody smarter than I will come in with some more details.
First, the Spitfire IX can (and probably should) be flown as an Energy Fighter.
Second, what you're describing are repeated boom-and-zoom passes. Energy fighting is not simply booming-and-zooming to death (although I guess it can be) -- what it is is an attempt to build up such an energy advantage that the opponent is powerless to escape an attack.
For me, nothing illustrates energy fighting better than the rope-a-dope. An E-fighter with superior energy gets the lower-E angles-fighter to climb after him. The E-fighter then heads skyward. Eventually, the angles fighter runs out of airspeed and starts to flounder. At that point, all the turning in the ability isn't going to matter. That's the point where the E-fighter reverses and uses its superior maneuverability to terminate the engagement.
So E-fighting then is all about building up an energy advantage, then converting that for a kill. That conversion might mean one turn with a bandit, but most often it's getting the bandit in a position where the plane is barely flying.
In your B-n-Z example,m the problem seems one of gunnery (and I have this problem too). Try to think of your prey as a major league pitcher. If he's sleeping, he won't evade and you'll hit it out of the park. Chances are he's gonna break. Study the break. On the next pass, set up to shoot him down if he breaks like that again (if the guy makes two flat right turns in a row, he deserves to die on principle). Start working on anticipating his move. If he moves like you think he will, let him have it; otherwise, zoom out and repeat.
At some point he will be on the deck, with no more altitude to convert to energy. Keep making passes at him, forcing him to break. Eventually, he'll get below his best maneuvering speed and you;ll be able to nail his ass.
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Okay, so I got Boom n Zoom and Rope a Dope now. Any other E moves I should know about? :)
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First of all Keez, let me congratulate u on ur arrival into the world of E-fighting.
I used to be in ur shoes not so long ago (3 months to be exact).......
TnB is all I knew, hell I even tried to turnfight NIKs with P51s.... :D .
Anyway a few basics are good. Here are a few moves I made up with the P51D....(beautiful plane).
1) The simple vertical loop. Don't underestimate this tactic, as its often never expected by ur nme. Also, its the most effective way IMHO to get a Buff. Nailed several Lancs, and B26s and a few B17s with this manoeveur and suffered little or no damage.
2) Try loopin and rolling at the same time.
3) Most effective against TnB fighters, and fighters that can't zoom with the stang.
Half a loop up, when u r inverted with the nme just below u, half a roll, followed with full rudder downwards. Watch as u end up on the nmes six and follow on to the kill. Because u r diving you can also turn with the nme, for a few secs at least....
Chewed up too many zekes and C205s with that one....
Personally, I think the best planes to start E-fighting are the LA-7 and F4U, fast and comparatively good tuners.
In any event, succesfull E-fighting means u need to really know reversals, (some thing that I suck at). Practice them and u will kick butt..... :D
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One of the keys in energy fighting is patience. If attacks are forced to quickly you’ll soon find the E advantage gone.
Dinger made some good points that I’ll repeat. The rope-a-dope and/or hammerhead is one of the best maneuvers for an energy fighter. For the rope patience ways in once again. Whenever approaching an enemy contact where you have the altitude advantage don’t try and force the engagement. You will be surprised at how often the enemy will try and climb to you. If this should happen, wing over a little to keep an eye under and pull the nose up some. Next becomes a judgement call on when the right time is to nose over and go in for the kill.
The hammerhead is a bit more risky as most of the time the enemy could be just outside weapon range when trying to pull them up to stall.
Gunnery. I still have a problem with this. You’re only going to get a viable gun solution for a very short period of time. With factoring in the speed you’re engaging at, the enemy’s speed, as well as convergence settings the angle of attack may leave very little room for errors. Also don’t forget about the energy the bullets will have when they hit also. A single slash may not provide the kill but may deal enough damage that when they run another friendly will finish them off for you.
A good way to practice gunnery on a hi-speed B&Z is vulching a CAP’d base that’s being attacked. The aircraft are generally a lot slower and continually making turns. Just remember not to fire until you see the rivets in there wings ;).
Its hard to get away from but be patient. There is nothing worse then letting them fangs come out and dig into your objective. If you find your pulling hard because the last few passes have missed and are getting aggravated at no hits it’s time to break off, regain your altitude, take a deep breath, and go look for another poor bastige :D.
It may seem like its all about B&Z; however, if you stick with it awhile you’ll start to find some interesting tactics to use. They usually all boil down to trying to get your enemy to pull his nose up while you are above him. You may also find that after some success at energy fighting your angles fighting will improve too. The spit is a good E-fighter but I would stay away from it, as it will be too easy to result to T&B.
Good luck.
Zippatuh
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An addition. The Immelman.
A good tactic is after a few passes when your E has bled some and it appears that it could soon end up a co-alt co-e fight, bring in the Immelman. As you loop up roll over at the top and hang. The stall buzzer will be blaring like mad and you will loose complete sight of the enemy. What I have found is that most of the time, if not all, they are climbing in the loop behind me expecting a vertical HO. After a few seconds I roll over and dive. Generally the other aircraft is just recovering from the stall. It takes good judgement of both your energy states though so beware.
Also the double Immelman. The enemy may be suckered into thinking they can follow you up. If you extend or keep climbing they will probably break off. However, if you flatten out on the first one and then pull for the next most of the time the bad guy will not flatten out at all and continue to climb. You will have just put someone in a rope-a-dope that didn’t expect it. Be careful on this one. Its easy to stall most E aircraft doing this and distance between you and the bad guy can close quickly.
Zippatuh
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Originally posted by Keez:
Okay, so I got Boom n Zoom and Rope a Dope now. Any other E moves I should know about? :)
High and low yo-yo. Offensive barrel rolls. Deadly gunnery :)
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Keez you should try your Spitfire with the E fighting tactics. It's not bad in that role. The only problem is that you don't have the speed to get out of an outnumbered situation. But if you have a bunch of altitude, that can substitute for speed.
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I have some questions
What is an Energy Fighter and what is Energy Fighting?
What is rope and dope and hammerhead?
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Borg... I'll assume you don't know what energy is to start (as it applies here). At its most basic it is a combo of speed and/or momentum. You need the speed for to be able to fly and manuever, lose it and you stall. E-fighters excell at retaining energy because they either are fast and/or can accelerate well. (P51 is one of the best). Usually in an e-fighter you can't turn with some planes so you absolutely do not want to get in a turn fight with planes like a spitfire or n1k. You'll lose all your energy advantage and they will turn inside you and kill you. Those planes retain E well but in a differnt way. i.e.- they can manuever at low speeds for a long time. E-fighting is merely using your speed advantage to keep the other fighter away from you while you can make passes at them. (There is a lot more to this, but I'll leave that to the experts.)
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Energy fighters are planes that skimp on manuaverability for the sake of speed and power. Pretty much all U.S. planes fit this catagory.
Energy fighting is the concept of air combat that emphasizes using energy state of your plane to gain an angles on the enemy. Energy fighting can encompass everything from Boom and Zoom tactics to a Spiral Rope Climb. Energy fighting doesn't have to be at high speeds either and can be combined with turn fighting tactics. IMO, the most deadly pilots are those the employ a mix of energy and turn fighting tactics.
One Energy tactic that I've found works in AH just as good as it did in AW is the 'vertical 8'. I don't know how effective it is in other planes but it works quite well in the P-38L. The Vertical 8 is one of the many types of Rope-a-Dweeb tricks out there. When entering the merge, have your plane slightly nose down with WEP on. This is to build up some extra energy for the vertical 8 on the merge. Make sure you've got some seperation from the bogie to avoid the head on shot on merge. As you merge with the bogie, pull into a 3-g Immelman and as you roll out to level on top of Immelman, if you've built up enough energy on the merge, you should have enough energy to go into another Immelman. As you reach the top of the 2nd Immelman, you'll be low on energy so use your flaps to get you over the top. Usually the bogie will try to follow you up on your first Immel and not expect you to pull off another one, so when you get over the top of your second Immel, 7 out of 10 times the bogie is stalled out below you showing his belly for your guns. If the bogie doesn't try to go into the vertical with you on the merge and instead break turns or even does a Split-S, no worries. Now you've got an altitude advantage over him with potential energy stored up.
An example of using energy tactics in a turn fight is the "stall loop". The stall loop is a manuever where you do a loop, usually at low speeds, and you stall going over the top and it's your stall that carries you through the rest of the loop. Again, this works in the P-38L and I haven't tried it in any other planes here in AH but in AW it worked with pretty much any plane. The best way to employ the stall loop is to get your bogie into a low speed turn fight. This is were energy fighting comes in. While in the turn fight, while getting the bogie to turn tighter to burn his energy way even further, lessen up on your stick and slightly start to widen your turns. This will reduce the g-load on your plane and will build up a little energy for you. As you get close to 150mph, pull into a loop using your flaps to get you over the top. If everything works well, as you stall, your nose should be pointing down above the stalled out bogie. Since the bogie didn't have the energy to match your stall loop, he should be stalled out right below you. If the bogie continued to turn or used the time you did your loop to try to extend and run, don't worry you still got him because now you've got the advantage over him.
For more stuff on mastering the merge, you should check out Rocketman's site. Don't let the Air Warrior stuff fool you, his lectures of merge tactics are real world ACM tactics and work with any flight sim game that models flight realistically.
For a site with good Energy Fighting tactics and lectures, BulletHead's site is one of the better ones. Again, these aren't Air Warrior only tactics and they work just as good, if not better in Aces High.
Rocketman's site: Mastering the Merge (http://www.inter-look.com/rocket/training.html)
Bulletheads Energy tactics: how to "E" fight (http://people.delphi.com/jtweller/training/train.htm)
You can ignore the screenshots of the stick scales on Bullethead's site as they are AW specific.
Originally posted by FirstBorg:
I have some questions
What is an Energy Fighter and what is Energy Fighting?
What is rope and dope and hammerhead?
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Ack-Ack ]
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Well i will make a meaningless post and say that the others here are very right in their tactic asnd also nothing better than a suprise dive on an angles fighter or a successful rope-a-dope. Well there are some things better but those are another time and another place. Oh and i have flow E-Fighters for a while and find the F4still baffles me. I find it a very hard plane to fly. thats my 2cence.
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Lots of good points above. Good gunnery is paramount in energy fighting. You must be able to predict where the enemy AC is going to be a few steps ahead of him. Place your bullet stream in his path and let him have it as he passes through. No turning, gentle energy conserving manuevers. Your manuevers should be vertical in nature to rebuild and recover your enbergy you spent in your pass. That means no hard corrections when tracking a con. That means no saddling up on the con. THAT is the hardest thing to overcome. ALSO your situational awareness must be tuned in. Too easy to get yourself in a bad situation.
for gunnery practice, this is a great exercise, however it is boring. Offline, get yourself around 6-7000 feet above the circling drones. Make passes at them at high speeds, but noit from their 6 oclock. Make your passes head on to them, or 90 degrees or greater. Dont shoot till you are close. I also suggest turning your tracers off. Keep up beating on those drones and your gunnery will improve. Strive for 10% or better. You check your gunnery at the scores page. To get a good idea of how well your gunnery is doing using the scores page, you shouldnt strafe ground targets as it degrades your hit percentage. (BTW your hit percentage has alot of bearing on your score, believe it or not)
Good luck, keep practicing!
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im buy no means a expert stick, listen to these guys before hand, this is all good info i see here.
But heres my 2 cents.
normaly when im E fighting, such as you described after 3-4 passes im going to recover fully for a few minutes (some times 2 passses depending on what air craft im fighting, or how much alt i had on them to begin with.)
As ammo stated gunnery is the most important part of E fighting/BNZ fighting. I dont fight with tracers becuse they are useless for this type of attack. Plus the element of surprise is 10 times better than anything they will ever do for you. In nearly all BNZ kills you will not be able to see your opponent when you are shooting, because the correct angle will be well ahead of them.
ive flown all type of fighters for a few months at a time, im currently working on turn fighters. One of the biggest mistakes a E fighter can make when he gets low on E and i 6 him is if he out sciscors me, or gets separation from a manuever he tries to turn back into me for a kill, which is a deadly mistake, i see it all to often.
Also patients is another key to this type of fighting, nothing can kill a e fighter faster vrs a turn fighter than not having the patients to wait for your kill, play with your food a little before you eat it. :D
Good luck Keez
Amon
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If you guys dont mind a checking a post in the 'other' forum ;)
http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum9/HTML/000252.html (http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum9/HTML/000252.html)
Just about any plane can be flown as an 'energy' fighter and even if the 'T&B' crowd doesnt admit it a good turnfight is still an energy fight when you analyize it.
[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: crutch ]
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Lot's of good advice...we used to call the vertical 8 a "double"...old saying was any good stick can do a double...it's a triple thats tough :).
I'd like to add a couple of general comments:
There are three basic fighting styles in Air Combat...
1) "angles" fighting...were the pilot trades stored energy for a positional advantage.
2) "B&Z" fighting...were the pilot uses a positional/energy advantage to stage repeated attacks against a foe with inferior E/position. The attacker will persist till he approaches a nuetral energy state and then bug out to regain superiority.
3) Energy fighting is focused on aquiring and/or maintaining an energy advantage that will be maintained till the endgame.
The spit IX is probably the best energy fighter in the game (IMO). I often find that I'm flying the spit at reduced or zero throttle for a majority of any fight to avoid building excess E. The goal; is to maintain an advantage but not to the point were you over extend. The best E fighters never let you catch a breath...there always over and above ...but never more than 1.4-1.8 out till they were you down to the point you have almost no options that work.
I have a lot clips of me in an F6 against good sticks flying an E fighting style...I'll be more than happy to post a couple of em where I get hunted down and hosed...and a couple were I manage to turn the tide...it's pretty easy to see the differences that lead to success and failure.
E fighting is easily the toughest to master and most enjoyable to use...but it's a long learning curve
PS
If you think you've mastered the spitty...go find DMF (leviathan now) or Algy...sure I'm leaving a few out...and make sure. :)
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Great point, Humble, about flying an energy engagement"...they're always over and above ..." but you left one out:"behind" Good energy fighters are continuously driving their plane into the targets rear hemisphere from that position of advantage.
This makes the bogey very uncomfortable and generally counters with an E bleeding turn to reposition the attacker in the front.
Kick
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And a quad is even tougher <BG>. That's one of the things I'm going to miss about AW. Nothing was more satisfying than the moment the bogie you're fighting realizes that he's one stalled out dead guy when he sees you do that quad Immel. Gotta love RR flying <BG>
Originally posted by humble:
Lot's of good advice...we used to call the vertical 8 a "double"...old saying was any good stick can do a double...it's a triple thats tough :).
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another point that could be made. The spit IX is an excellent energy fighter. It is only hampered by its limited speed in the arena in which it competes. What makes a fighter a good energy fighter is its ability to build and maintian energy. The G10 is king! It builds energy extremely fast. A good pilot can turn a bad situration into an offensive one in a hurry with this AC. An LA7 is also a very good energy AC with its superb acceleration.
All fighters can be flown in an evnergy style effectively, but several of them shine in that role. the pilot who can manage his energy and read his adversaries energy well, will be tought ot beat. Add a great ability to know his situation all the time and read it well, and you got someone that knows how to survive.
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It seems to me your original question is actaully two:
1. How do you manage to avoid stuffing up pass after pass when Boomin and Zoomin?
2. How do you E fight?
They are kinda related, but lets answer them individually:
Q1.
First, good gunnery is a must, you must be able to hit them from low to extreme angles off. This takes practice in two forms. You must know your planes gun ballistics like your own hand, know how they react under different G loadings and angles, their rate of fire, effective hitting power etc (ie how many times you need to score a hit). Secondly, you have to be able to predict the movement of the enemy. He will always move 90 degrees to his wing line (ie bank and use elevator). Carefull study of his movements in the first pass will suggest the next pass and where to pull lead in anticipation of where he will be and fire there. Using your rudder to track the con as he breaks is a good tactic as well as increases strike time. Just remember dont try pull lead in the same plane of manuever, you can use a different plane of manuever to effectively put your nose in front of him if only for a few seconds (now you can track breifly with the rudder to score the hits).
My advice is to pick a plane and learn its gun ballistics inside out, and practice various angle-off gun approaches against the offline drones. you will find that when you get better you can nail em under your nose (ie out of view).
Q2.
E fighting is about building up an energy advantage over your enemy. Different planes can build its own energy levels and/or bleed the energy levels of your opponent in different ways. For example, the G10 is a great accelerator and climber, and yet the P51 is a great hi-speed turner and zoomer, so abviously the tactics for E fighting in those planes differ.
I fly the P51 and been flying it in AH since beta. P51s dont accelerate to well, so you need to keep your speed very high and do as little horizontal turns as posible, while makeing your opponent turn in the horizontal alot. You want to turn smarter (ie use the vert) than your opponent and on your terms not his. Use your speed advantage to get you seperation and use a good reversal (half-cuban 8 or immelman or chandelle) once you have enough room to reverse and build effective maneuvering speed before the HO merge. The trick is to trick them into turning tight to follow you as you go past and thus waste their E. If they dont, then you know your up against a cool customer, if they keep doing it, you will grind their E down in a few passes, upon when you zoom skyward in a tempting fashion and let them follow you then reverse over and nail em. The idea is to keep them slow, ie out of their effective cornering speed but yet you are well within yours and have plenty of speed, sooner or later you'll get them in a compromising position floundering around and you can easily out turn them and nail em. Also learn the Hi yoyo and lag-roll and know when to use em, they will get you kills its that simple :)
As for 109s, dont ask me, i suck in them.
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These posts are fantastic. Thanks to everyone for helping rookies like me. Thanks to Keez for getting it started.
Here is a specific situation that often leads to my death. I attack a spit in my P51 from above, zoom past, take a shot if its there, then pull up for a vertical loop, and roll to line him up for another pass. To my surprise he follows me up. Great! this must be the rope-a-dope situation I always read about. But he keeps coming up, never stalls, so I continue pulling my loop over the top thinking my superior E-fighter will continue to gain E. I go into another loop. He contiues to follow. This time he must have improved his E situation because I can't get over the top soon enough to get out of his gun position. I die.
What am I doing wrong? Did I just misjudge his E relative to mine thinking that my higher alt means higher E?
Thanks again for all the advice!
Hoc
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Just a tip......find your 'G' meter ( the one with Accel written on it ) and learn to use it.
Zero G dives give the quickest accelleration possible.
<S> Blue
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HocBao,
Your higher alt means higher E, but the spit can kill u even if he is stalling. He can hang on his prop pretty well.... :p
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Hoc,
How are you making your attack exactly?
The ideal attack situation is to dive in and dip low early, come UP into the bad guy from his low 6. This gives 2 advantages, one is hopefully a surprise attack and two is that fact you are already moving upward when you pass his plane. This will make him pull harder if you miss your shot and use more E to get on your 6.
If you attack on the downstroke you will dive down past the bad guy before starting to move upward again. This allows him to follow you easier and for him to work less to keep his E up for his counter attack.
Always remember E does not just equal speed. E is a state, it is altitude + speed. If the spit is faster than you are at the moment but you have some altitude you may not have a huge E advantage. Any mistakes in your attack could cause excess E bleed and bam he has the advantage even tho you started with altitude advantage. Judging an bogies E state is a huge part of the game. Remember at some point ALL planes are E fighters and ALL planes are angle fighters. If you miss judge what you would consider normally an angle fighter's E state that angle fighter may just beat you with E.
Learn to read the other guys E state and you have won half the battle already :)
s!
Rocket
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Originally posted by HocBao:
Here is a specific situation that often leads to my death. I attack a spit in my P51 from above, zoom past, take a shot if its there, then pull up for a vertical loop, and roll to line him up for another pass. To my surprise he follows me up. Great! this must be the rope-a-dope situation I always read about. But he keeps coming up, never stalls, so I continue pulling my loop over the top thinking my superior E-fighter will continue to gain E. I go into another loop. He contiues to follow. This time he must have improved his E situation because I can't get over the top soon enough to get out of his gun position. I die.
What am I doing wrong? Did I just misjudge his E relative to mine thinking that my higher alt means higher E?
Thanks again for all the advice!
Hoc
Here's how you beat that spit. What you are doing is immediately after your pass on the spit you go into your zoom. IE you pull hard on the stick sending your AC skyward. this robs you of some energy and if you were to continue thsi series of manuevers with the spit he would eventually equalize enmergy with you because 1) h builds energy faster than you 2) you are giving some energy up everytime you pull back into your zoom.
try this instead. When you dive on the low spit, if you dont hit him don't pull hard back into a zoom immediately. Instead level out and continue to fly past him and *gradually* pull back on the stick to recover your altitude. You will not lose the energy you stored in the speed from your diving pass, and you can gain darn near every ounce of your altitude back (depending on how far down you had to dive to attack the spit). A good pilot can make you overshoot and its hard to avoid this, but doing what I have described will foil any chance he had at gaining a shot oppertunity from that overshoot.
Gluck!
ammo
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Just a twist to what ammo said ... I dont like to level out as I zoom down. A good stick will take a snapshot and hit a percentage of the time. I like to do one of two things on a BnZ.
Fist, when I boom, if I see I am not going to have a shot, I like to zoom behind the plane. This prevents any possibility of an overshoot and giving up a shot. I will not yank and go vertical, but a 2G climb and then transfer that to a vertical climb out.
Second, if I see I am going to overshoot, I prefer to do so passing under the bandit, not level with, not slightly above. I pass under, am hauling ass, and I watch to see what he does. Typically they arent looking for you below them, so you have a small element of surprise stored up. If he continues onward, I will gradually extend down below his guns until D700 or so, then go into a 2G climb and build back up yer E.
Patience I think is the most important thing to consider in E fighting. You have to be willing to be boring, and extend and recover E after making a firing pass.
Good luck!
Nim
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Got a question on this last part of thread...did you get under your bogie by a bit...also was there a hard turn by con you followed involved at all...way back when as a trainer I used to spend alot of time with newer sticks teaching em to stay hi.
Usually they'd dive in screaming...i'd break up and into pass and roll lift vector in front of em as they screamed under...and catch em as they came screaming back up thru.
What happens is pretty simple...the increased energy from dive hurts turn rate...the con goes under and begins to pull max G's trying to go hi...this is a serious E drain and scrapes of very serious E...now you look back and see the "target" unexpectedly close...so you pull harder to evade and get hammered at top.
As a rule I taught never open a fight with a nose down shot...it leads to a loss of angles and often builds excess E...if you commit to a B&Z attack then drive down thru and extend with a zoom...don't pull serious G's (over 3) at any time or for even lower
G's for longer than a few seconds.
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Small Observation on E-fighting Styles
Though the concept is the same, the styles of energy fighting is very different between planes. In relation to the questions in the original post, this means E fighting tactics on the critical pass differs between planes.
I haven't much experience in the P-51s, but generally, the P-51D and Bf 109G-10 seems to represent the two different types of E-fighting styles.
In the pure sense as a aggresive hunter-killer fighter, P-51D has most of the attributes needed: it is fast, very high maximum dive speed, good high speed control(aileron/elevator authority, good instantaneous turns, and armed with high velocity/accurate weapons.
On the other hand, the Bf 109G-10 seems to me more of a 'defensive' E fighter. This is probably mainly due to its actual historical role and circumstances. It is fast, dives good but horrible high speed control, but what it lacks in control it makes up with astounding ability to climb.
As a result, P-51s on their first diving pass usually seem to drop from directly above. :eek: No doubt they have the ability to do so, and since its high speed handling is pleasant while rate of climb not very impressing, they use every ounce of energy gained on the "Boom" maneuver and directly turn it into a "Zoom" maneuver after the pass is done. I don't think I've seen many P-51s (good stick or bad alike)doing a low-6 pass on their first attack. Usually when I meet a P-51 they seem to come in from the 'traditional' high-6 angles.
In contrast, Bf 109G-10s have horrible high speed handling. The energy gained during the dive cannot exceed 450mph, or you are in for one nasty trimming frenzy. As a result, the first attacking pass of 109s come usually from low-6 angles. Whatever dive they do they fall under the target plane, regain flight control by blowing off excessive speed in a shallow climb as they approach the target from low-6.
For the P-51D, the "Boom" part of the manuever is directly connected to the attack. In the 109G-10, the attack comes right before the "Zoom" part.
I am not suggesting more skill is needed to fly either P-51 or the 109G-10 (depending on the preference of the reader :) ), just pointing out from my personal experience that the attacking styles seem to differ a lot(well.. I do admit its not that long an experience.. :D). Of course, this is a general observation, and in some cases a 109 may do a attack from high-6, or vice versa with P-51, but the general characteristics of the plane seems to dictate the style of E fighting in the more typical/usual cases.
Another interesting example is how typically Japanese pilots like Mitsu or Blade use Spitfires or N1K2s as an E-fighter. In these planes, the general speed is not sufficiently high enough to provide 'lazy' E-fighting styles, and as much it is easier to chase down the enemy toe-to-toe in these planes, it is also easier to be shot down by planes of simular types by overwhelming odds after the chase is done.
Their style of E-fighting seem to be very instinctive. At the first sight, they dive down steep angles without hesitation(pilots in the more orthodox E fighting planes such as P-51s, Fw 190s or Bf 109s etc.. generally seem to take up some time planning their move).
Since those planes are very maneuverable in the turning sense, if the circumstances permit, after the "Boom" part they blow E off very suddenly by wild-but-logical maneuvers, and situate themselves behind the target. They change the fight suddenly from "BnZ" to "TnB". In this case, the Energy is used as sort of a 'boost' to get themselves behind enemy planes they normally wouldn't be able to in a co-E co-alt situation. E-fighting for (relatively) low-speed highly maneuverable planes usually take it in this style.
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Just thought it'd help to post if somebody didn't know about my little persoanl observation :)
ps) And everything in this post is empirical. I'm sure there are other pilots who have different things to say :) Carry on guyz.
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Oh, and I heard of this nifty saying on E-fighting from my mentor :)
" If provided the pilot skills are the same, the two adversaries do not make any dumb mistakes... the one fighting TnB will never win over a BnZ plane.
In the BnZ style of E-management, you may not be able to win, but you certainly will not lose to a TnBer. In the TnB style of E-management you may kill a lot of other TnBers, but you will never win over a BnZer. " - Raomi Rraf
- thx a lot Sifu, I still remember this one.
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]
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The art of B&Z is being able to judge your opponents turn radius to be able to predict your lead shot aiming point (that is if he turns when seeing you coming in on him). It is not something you can calculate, but something you have to get a feeling for by judging his E-state and knowing the capabilities of his plane (good to fly as many different planes as possible to understand those capabilities).
If you B&Z a plane and you adjust your aiming point too late when he turns away, you will not be able to hit him because your turn radius is too large and the available closing distance between you and him too small at your high speed. But when you start your course correction in time (more available closing distance) you will only have to make small course corrections towards a predicted aiming point even at your high speed and inherent large turning radius.
If I B&Z a La-7 who's flying at 300 mph level my lead angle on him turning will be different from me attacking a A6M flying at 220 mph level. The turn radius of the A6M (or N1K2, SpitV, etc) in this example will be much smaller than that of the La-7 (or P51, P47, 109g6/g10, etc). Therefore my lead angle against the La-7 will be larger than my lead angle against the A6M in this example.
In this example you're still very much capable to make a very good lead shot at a much better turning plane at much lower E because his turn radius is relatively small and your lead shot needs relatively small course correction from your side especially when you B&Z from his high 6 and start your maneuver for that lead shot at large enough distance to him.
Wheter you'll be able to make that lead shot at the la-7 in this example depends very much on your initial closing distance to him.
So it boils down to a couple of things:
- knowing (feeling) turn capabilities of different planes at different speeds
- good estimation of E-states of the enemy planes
- start B&Z at large enough distance from him (but watch compression of your plane)
- early recognition of where he's turning to and reacting on it immidiately (the further away you correct your course the smaller the required course correction)
- patience, if you miss the first merge, extent, climb, position yourself and go in again (don't turn with him, only turn for your lead shot)
There many examples where you'll not be able to make that lead shot, e.g. when he changes his initial turn direction during that turn and your closing distance has become too small to correct for it. But than again there will be many instances where that doesn't happen and where you'll be able to make beautifull lead shots, :D
As stated earlier by others B&Z-ing takes practise and patience. As long as you don't lose to much E during your attempts (don't let him lure you into turning too hard and bleed to much E) you can B&Z him a couple of times. By learning how to estimate your lead shots you'll get better at this.
A good way to practise it to some extent is to B&Z the off-line mode targets (they fly in a circle). Once you get good lead-angle shots at those, practise it with a buddy in the TA both flying different plane setups.
GL, cya up there, :)
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Apar ]
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Originally posted by Kweassa:
Oh, and I heard of this nifty saying on E-fighting from my mentor :)
- thx a lot Sifu, I still remember this one.
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]
Actually have a great clip of you vs me (F6 vd G10)...that illustrates exactly the point...must be 7-10 passes as you wore me down to deck from mid-alt...finally was at a point where I either gambled a bit or was down at wave top. If I remember correctly I had 2 new cons reach Icon range and tried to set up a snap shot...was a risky move and you drilled me from about 50 yds (meters??).
Anyway shows exactly the issues facing a lower E plane caught with less potential energy...the dreaded double negative puts the entire fight in the hands of the E/B&Z fighter....he'll control the fight unless he makes a mistake or you attempt to force a true misque...anyway happy to look for it if anyone's interested
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
try this instead. When you dive on the low spit, if you dont hit him don't pull hard back into a zoom immediately. Instead level out and continue to fly past him and *gradually* pull back on the stick to recover your altitude. You will not lose the energy you stored in the speed from your diving pass, and you can gain darn near every ounce of your altitude back (depending on how far down you had to dive to attack the spit). A good pilot can make you overshoot and its hard to avoid this, but doing what I have described will foil any chance he had at gaining a shot oppertunity from that overshoot.
Gluck!
ammo
This breaks one of the cardinal rules of air combat: NEVER overfly your target! This gives your target an opportunity to take a shot at you. Even though it is a short duration of time, it is still a chance to put bullets into your soft body. My recommendation is to use low G pulls. A 2-3G pullup should keep you out of a gun solution, unless the target pulls harder G to get a shot on you, which eats more of his energy. I have surprised more than one "boomer" who leveled off and gave me a shot at him. A good burst of my six .50s and poof, kill for me!! (I fly the F4u-1 mostly.)
Most important skill of E-Fighting: Gunnery. Why do you think Fester is such an amazing fighter? He has untouchable gunnery skillz. If he gets a shot at you...You are DEAD!
Good Luck!
Terror