Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: TexMurphy on October 18, 2004, 04:24:39 AM
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Seriously.
Alt and speed are two of the most important keys to dogfighting and yet the two most whined about subjects. "waaaaaaaaaah alt monkey waaaaaaaaah". "waaaaaaaaaaaaaah fleeeeeeeeeeeee monkey waaaaaaah".
Ok so La-7s are extreamly fast on the deck. But they are soo easy to kill off in their deck runs as they always run straight. Just some alt. Dive. Boom.
Yeah its freekin hard to fight someone who comes in with an higher alt then you have. But isnt that the entire point of dogfighting? Get the advantage when you can and capitalize on it?
I see so many people get tied into deck level fights, which is ok and I dont mind. But when they are unengaged or most fighters are down they just stay low and dont work their alt back.
I dont mean this as a flame or flamebait to anyone. But Im really puzzled by this fact that the two key elements to dogfighting are the two most frown upon. Can someone please explain to me why? I might just be a naive noob but Id really like to know.
Tex
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I don't have a problem with altitude or speed, it's how people use them that makes me cringe at times.
There is nothing more pathetic than seeing a bogie that has either an advantage in speed or altitude, or even both and watching them surrender it all or not use them and run. Guess that's why those type of guys are really good in things like Osties.
ack-ack
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^^^^^^ what Ack-Ack said.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I don't have a problem with altitude or speed, it's how people use them that makes me cringe at times.
There is nothing more pathetic than seeing a bogie that has either an advantage in speed or altitude, or even both and watching them surrender it all or not use them and run. Guess that's why those type of guys are really good in things like Osties.
ack-ack
Ack, I think problem is that you always see those running guys under you, and can't judge their true alt or speed. I know that you come back to the mother Earth from your orbit only when your are out of fuel, food or beer.
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Alt plus Speed = Energy
Energy = Life
Lose your energy, lose your life.
Billy Bishop said that the most important thing in dogfighting was gunnery, the second thing was the tactics of entering a fight, and least important was flying skills.
Fly the way you want, and ignore those who whine about the way you fly. :D
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It's not alt and speed that are the problem it is people that are not aggressive and fly like pu$$ies.
They start with an advantage and as soon as they start to lose the advantage they run. If you find one of these guys get ready for one of the most boring times you will expieriance in the MA.
Aggressive pilots = fun fight
Timid pilots = boring as hell
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It's not even that they fly like wusses or that they don't fight the way "you want." It's the fact that they don't fight at ALL. I chased a knight in a 205 that I won't name last night for almost 4 sectors. He was at 16k, I was at 13 trying to get up to him but he would not even think of engaging when he had the advantage in every single way. Finally, he flew back to the east towards his friends, still grabbing about 3.5k ahead of me when 3 knights came in coalt to me. This is after I had chased the guy for at least 15 minutes and repeatedly calling him out on ch200 (which is everyone's duty if they witness this crap). The guy then came around at me when his three buddies jumped me. All of a sudden I'm in a 4 on 1 at 15k. :lol
Then guess what happens... he tries for a ho but misses. I mean comeon, there was no reason for this, when I first found him he was early on his run climbing out, wasn't low on fuel or ammo, wasn't wounded or damaged, he just was a total puss. It was absolutely disgusting. He couldn't get a shot on me in a 4 on 1 so he dove out to vulch at the bishop field below. When I went back and checked the film I saw who it was, and he actually was a decent pilot in a very old and esteemed squadron, only making this behavior more laughable.
Now before I get attacked by the "I won't fly your way crowd"for calling a guy out, just listen a bit. I'm not asking that a guy fly my way, I'm just asking that he actually FLY. There are so many things he could have done with a huge alt and E advantage on me that would have put him in no danger at all, but he didn't even try one thing until 15 minutes later when three of his friends showed up. All I'm saying is that when you have an advantage, use it for Christs sake. I'd expect this kind of behavior out of a newbie, not an old vet.
This is one of those cases where there is not a single reason why he could not engage me. Those of you out there that don't agree frankly just don't get it. I'm sorry, there's no other way around it. If he had come in on me and used his advantage and gotten me I would have fired a nice on ch1 to the lad. Even if he had tried, not gotten me and then run when he lost his advantage I would have been pleased. There is nothing wrong with getting out when you have lost the advantage, it's the correct move unless you can turn that disadvantage into an advantage. Not using the advantage you have is like not using the talents one is given at birth; it's an unforgivable sin.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Alt plus Speed = Energy
Energy = Life
Lose your energy, lose your life.
but have one helluva good time doing it. best times ive had in ah often resulted in my virtual death by virtual bullets, which i quickly avenged in my virtual reincarnation.
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It is a game. If you die you get to have a new plane. If you fight hard and die you had some fun and still get a new plane.
I never saw any poing in running.
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The La-7 is still good down low but its really been castrated in that when u hit 500mph your nose goes up weather you want it to or not. I actually got run down by a niki higher up than me, guess it didn't have the speed restriction problem I ran into. :p
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Last week in the CT shane was flying a P47D-11 at and below 8k. He flew it almost exclusivly T&B. I had alt and I had speed in my FW-A5 everytime I attacked him. He killed me 4 for 4. He never got above 8k and kicked everyones arse who got near him. I think one time I was in a P51-B and he was in a Me110. I had alt and speed he had well,,,,you get the picture.
Unless I'm getting really gang banged all the time, I don't get much above 15k anymore. It saves you the time you waste having to work off 5 or 6K to not compress so you can vulch someone. Maybe Ive learned something in the CT this last month. Just get in and kill them. You can always run if it get too deep to keep your head up.:)
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Hit the nail on the head with your entire post Stang.
There was another thread just awhile ago where I described a situation where a 51 that held every advantage vs my 38 absolutely refused to engage except for high speed HO passes.
Later in that thread I described an engagement where a 51 with all those same advantages actually tryed to fight. He took a gamble and turned with my 38, at exactly the right time he disegaged and dove out.
The 2nd engagement was fun, even though it didnt result in anyone dying. The first engagement was just rediculous, if you can even call it an engagement.
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Anyone can fight and live with energy...
The names you hear of that qualify as "The Best" or "Elite"... Well I usually notice those are the guys flying around under 5k, making an bellybutton of the guys trying to B&Z them. :D
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Cornhuskers suck this year :lol
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Once I encountered a P-38 with a slight altitude advantage. I was climbing in a P-51B full of fuel so the E difference was a bit more than slight. The P-38 attacked me and was mildy taunting me that I didn't want to fight, but just kept jut outside guns range.
But what's the point, I could have TRIED but just would have died pointlessly, especially since the P-38 was AKAK :D
I always are trying to build/conserve E in this game because indeed E is life and it also helped me to kill some top pilots.
I never met Shane and he is probably a natural talent if he can do what is claimed, because if you are halfway decent and are in a better plane and have more E, you should win every time in a one on one.
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Huskers do suck... Need to change that to Purdue... errrr... Wisconsin. :D
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Alt plus Speed = Energy
Energy = Life
Lose your energy, lose your life.
Billy Bishop said that the most important thing in dogfighting was gunnery, the second thing was the tactics of entering a fight, and least important was flying skills.
Fly the way you want, and ignore those who whine about the way you fly. :D
I completely disagree. While maintaining energy is one successful way of surviving, it is not the only way. Next time you up in a furball or even simple dog fight with a couple cons take up the zero. It will show you that you do not need a good amount of energy nor altitude to come away with a good 5 kills. Just a few good Air Combat Maneuvers and you've got yourself a couple few kills right there.
Do I think there is a problem with alt monkeys? To an extent. People fluttering their wings around 20K is reasonable, anything passed that is just absurd unless they have a specific reason to be up that high - most likely for mission purposes or interception. I've seen many times where a 109 or a la7 will come in from 25k to get an easy kill, go back up, vulch over another furball, and hitch the ride home. Yes this is a tactic, but lets see you do it from 15-18K; 20-25K is definitely not needed...
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In generally I don't undestand at all, that there is so much whining about alt monkeys and La-7 dweeps who use their speed or alt advantage to beat their enemy.
I have flown about 2 years in Aces high arena and i think that I am a average pilot.
I have noticed that every time I have been shot down I have made a critical mistake or came across a better pilot than me.
to ALL:aok
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I have noticed that every time I have been shot down I have made a critical mistake or came across a better pilot than me.
Yup... I can't think of anything else that would get you shot down... instead of maybe sleeping, and I think that qualifies as a critical mistake. ;)
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Originally posted by Lazer
Yup... I can't think of anything else that would get you shot down... instead of maybe sleeping, and I think that qualifies as a critical mistake. ;)
:D:rofl
So we have no reason to whine, if the enemy is better or use wiser tactic than us and shot you down;)
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Hey Sasmox,
Describe your normal sortie from takeoff to landing, in general.
Just curious.
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Originally posted by mars01
Hey Sasmox,
Describe your normal sortie from takeoff to landing, in general.
Just curious.
1. Take off
2. Climbing to 8-13 k (depend on what plane I fly)
3. Try to locate the enemy
4. Try to get the tactical advantage before fight
5. Try to kill the enemy
6. the enemy
7. Try to land my plane and survive
And if possible I fly with wingman and use team tactics to beat the enemy.
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i given up chasing wussie pilots these days.
The most common perps are P-51, 190s and tempests.
so it a perk/invulnerably fast plane! wow! this means you must fly like a girl??
(no offence to pilots who like these planes a fly them with intent to fight)
the best tactic i have found, in dealing with these types, is to always offer them your tail, more often than not they turn back and dive again. This is when you get to practice your reversal and barrel roll defences.
this either scares them off to find another poor sucker to aggrivate, or, you kill them and laugh at there mistake, while sending a CH200 to see how they take it ;)
.....oh i wish i was Wildthng...... :D
first few weeks of AH, i dived on a spit with bags of E, he broke and i shot past. 2 seconds later i was dead.
SYSTEM: Taki shot you down
I was convinced he must have cheated.
I checked film.
I appologised humbly for saying he cheated..... :D
thus the learning cycle began.
batfink
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Hi Mars01,
Here is 3 films which I filmed some time ago. I hope that you enjoyed with them and maybe these films tell more about how I fly in the arena.
film1 (http://www.tracklogix.fi/marko/kuvat/sasmo1.ahf)
film2 (http://www.tracklogix.fi/marko/kuvat/sasmo2.ahf)
film3 (http://www.tracklogix.fi/marko/kuvat/sasmo3.ahf)
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Mak333
I completely disagree. While maintaining energy is one successful way of surviving, it is not the only way. Next time you up in a furball or even simple dog fight with a couple cons take up the zero. It will show you that you do not need a good amount of energy nor altitude to come away with a good 5 kills. Just a few good Air Combat Maneuvers and you've got yourself a couple few kills right there.
There are two tactics for fighting, BNZ and TNB. I don't turn and burn because that is a receipe for getting gang banged.
I ususally get about 10k of alt, I find that alt to be an excellent height for flying and fighting. And if you will check my stats (if you are really bored) you will find that my main ride is the 190A8.
I find that having 1 on 1 fights in the MA are rare indeed. Whatever fight you are in will soon be joined by planes from one or (usually) both sides. To get the kill, you must make it quickly. To keep from getting killed you must break off the engagement quickly if you haven't made the kill. I personally believe that 30 seconds is way too long in most fights. I find the 190A8 with 4 cannons and 2 50's to be a powerfull guns package that can deliver the coup de grace quickly. I don't really like the plane that much to tell the truth, but it has a good amount of fuel, and the guns package makes up for the other short commings, and the ENY value is big enought to keep it from being eliminated from you choice of rides.
As far as doing loops, yo yo's, immelmanns, split-s, and rolling sissors in a TNB while the hordes of BNZ gang bang you; well, it isn't my thing. It may be yours and bon appetitte'. Surely I will not be one to tell you how, when, or where to fly :)
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Ah ha! but the zero doesn't burn as it turns! check it out! :aok :D
Edit...Even with the P51 there are ways around the burning of energy. I've won many fights when i've gotten into trouble at high alts and had to hit the deck. Some la7 or 109 will usually come down with me. I blow em away for a good 2 mins but they persist to catch me. They finally do obviously because of engine power. Once they do I pull back the throttle and do a combination of rudder and flaps and jerk the stick a little while creating tight turns but not losing very much energy. I often still have energy left to turn it back parallel to my enemy and gun him from behind, as he slowly gains distance.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I don't have a problem with altitude or speed, it's how people use them that makes me cringe at times.
There is nothing more pathetic than seeing a bogie that has either an advantage in speed or altitude, or even both and watching them surrender it all or not use them and run. Guess that's why those type of guys are really good in things like Osties.
ack-ack
Easy for you to say Ack Ack you fly a p38.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I don't have a problem with altitude or speed, it's how people use them that makes me cringe at times.
There is nothing more pathetic than seeing a bogie that has either an advantage in speed or altitude, or even both and watching them surrender it all or not use them and run. Guess that's why those type of guys are really good in things like Osties.
ack-ack
I concur
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I do recognize my self in a few of the mentioned things.
Having alt advantage and not engaging.
If Im approaching a furball I study it from above before I engage. I do like to take my time to study it so that I can make a good approach once I decided to commit to the battle. While doing this I also look for pilots who could use a hand.
Not that Im much help but a distraction does help.
I dont like to just pile into the first fight I can find when I have an advantage. After all I do have the advantage of pickin my fight. I try to do that when I do have E and Alt advantage.
Givin up alt advantage and diving for a run
Sometimes I do just floor it. Especially I dont like to fight Spities at higher alt in my Yak. Unless I have a sizable advantage I do tend to draw the fight to the deck intentionally. Call me a noob, I am one;), but I do like to have the option of outrunning the spit if things go wrong.
Running from battles
Yes I do this as well. Here is a list of situations I do run.
1. Out of ammo. (Noob in a Yak, so it happens alot)
2. Low on fuel. (If my fuel is so low that I have to RTB I do so)
3. Im outnumbered and there are friendlies relativly near by. Then I try to draw the fight to the area where I got support. (1v2s I do fight as I really wana pull of my first 1v2 win)
4. If I screwed up against a slower plane I do run a bit till he breaks off and then I rengage.
HO´s
Yes I do HO as well. In even number fights I dont do it because the risk of me dieing to it aint worth it. BUT. Most of the 1v2s I tend to face is against spits. Somehow spits thend to like goin into the HO. Since Im still learning and have alot left to learn I do opt for tryin to take one of the spits out fast through an HO.
I know I can deck run from the 1v2 situation but I really wana pull it off. I dont feel any shame for running from a 1v2 BUT I want the challeng. If I dont do the HO, considering my current skill leve, Im toast anyway. I need to get the fight to a 1v1 asap so the HO vs a spit is worth it.
What I dont understnad though is why so many spits do HO you. I mean they are one of the most fragile planes in game and they dont have THAT big fire power.
In short
When I read these forums and what people whine about as "lame" things I do recognize my self in alot of it. I really hate to do lame shait in games so thats why I bring this up.
The thing though I always try to make the best out of each situation Im in. That means using the advantages of my plane vs the disadvantages of the enemy.
Tex.
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An experience I had the other night:
Flying back from a fight over the ocean to a CV in my FM2 at about 1K ft, I'm bounced by a high LA7. He repeatedly zooms and extends, taking zero risk.
I'm running low on fuel and am trying to work back to the CV, dodging his zooms, trying to lure him into at least making one decent attempt.
I run out of fuel and ditch in the water. Then he opens up on me on channel 200: "You coward! Who were you flying that F4F, you know who your are, ditching on me...blah blah." Huh?
When I told him he ran me out of fuel and asked who the coward was, he claimed not to fly LA7s very often.
Fine, I told him I'm coming back with full tank.
On the way, I get bounced by a high P51. I've no idea if it's the same guy, but the MO was the same. Zooming at 400+mph, extending, repeating. Taking no risk whatsoever. Flying like that he has no chance of killing me.
I was having to cut my manuvers very narrowly, letting him close on my 6 to less than d400 and get some pings otherwise he wouldn't commit enough for me to even get a decent snap shot.
Just as I was fearing that I'd have to ditch again, out of fuel (remember I started with a full tank), he must've been low too 'cause he peeled off for home.
Fly however you want, but you're not going to get any better if you refuse to take risks and I don't for the life of me see how anybody can have fun this way.
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I dunno... why complain?? Even when I'm lower, which is most of the time, the high guys fly right past me thru my guns and somehow or another they just blow up... Whats the problem??
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I was at about 5k with with about 5 planes the other day near our base. Basically we were base hugging, er ah I mean defending the base. :rofl
A high F4U came in at about 12k, though the better of it and flew off.
You should have heard the whines about him being a coward.
Imagine that, he didn't want to dive down and be gang banged. :eek:
Under the same circumstances I would have gotten out of Dodge too. :D
Also considered cowardice is someone with 4 bogeys on his butt chasing him towards home. How dare he not turn and get gang banged, er ah I mean fight like a man?? :rolleyes:
I get tired of pack hunters complaining when a bogey won't dive down and get ganged. :(
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Originally posted by Samiam
Fly however you want, but you're not going to get any better if you refuse to take risks and I don't for the life of me see how anybody can have fun this way.
well i think alot of people in the ma would rather zoom in, have the prey stay perfectly still so they can blast them and leave. then if that person will not cooperate by staying still they get mad and start cussing on ch1. very pathetic indeed. guess i found more often than not people want the easiest kill possible, they dont care about having a good fight. yes they could do this offline but then they couldnt yell at anyone and no one would be able to see and congratulate them on their skillfully landed kills all
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I'd TnB is my X45 wasn't being such a potato. The tension is too high which makes it stick...
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
I do recognize my self in a few of the mentioned things.
Having alt advantage and not engaging.
If Im approaching a furball I study it from above before I engage. I do like to take my time to study it so that I can make a good approach once I decided to commit to the battle. While doing this I also look for pilots who could use a hand.
Not that Im much help but a distraction does help.
I dont like to just pile into the first fight I can find when I have an advantage. After all I do have the advantage of pickin my fight. I try to do that when I do have E and Alt advantage.
Givin up alt advantage and diving for a run
Sometimes I do just floor it. Especially I dont like to fight Spities at higher alt in my Yak. Unless I have a sizable advantage I do tend to draw the fight to the deck intentionally. Call me a noob, I am one;), but I do like to have the option of outrunning the spit if things go wrong.
Running from battles
Yes I do this as well. Here is a list of situations I do run.
1. Out of ammo. (Noob in a Yak, so it happens alot)
2. Low on fuel. (If my fuel is so low that I have to RTB I do so)
3. Im outnumbered and there are friendlies relativly near by. Then I try to draw the fight to the area where I got support. (1v2s I do fight as I really wana pull of my first 1v2 win)
4. If I screwed up against a slower plane I do run a bit till he breaks off and then I rengage.
HO´s
Yes I do HO as well. In even number fights I dont do it because the risk of me dieing to it aint worth it. BUT. Most of the 1v2s I tend to face is against spits. Somehow spits thend to like goin into the HO. Since Im still learning and have alot left to learn I do opt for tryin to take one of the spits out fast through an HO.
I know I can deck run from the 1v2 situation but I really wana pull it off. I dont feel any shame for running from a 1v2 BUT I want the challeng. If I dont do the HO, considering my current skill leve, Im toast anyway. I need to get the fight to a 1v1 asap so the HO vs a spit is worth it.
What I dont understnad though is why so many spits do HO you. I mean they are one of the most fragile planes in game and they dont have THAT big fire power.
In short
When I read these forums and what people whine about as "lame" things I do recognize my self in alot of it. I really hate to do lame shait in games so thats why I bring this up.
The thing though I always try to make the best out of each situation Im in. That means using the advantages of my plane vs the disadvantages of the enemy.
Tex.
I've fought against you a few times and I can hardly describe your flying as being timid like.
ack-ack
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The timid Rainbow Warriors that I'm talking about are the ones that make you wonder why a person is so hell bent on avoiding a fight in a combat game.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by RTSigma
I'd TnB is my X45 wasn't being such a potato. The tension is too high which makes it stick...
Directly under the spring that is directly under the handle....take some silicon lubricant (on a rag) and put it on the underside of the plastic piece.....no more sticking :)
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Elfie, I fixed the problem. When I say fixed, I mean removed.
The stick now has no tension and requires more concentration to fly and hand work.
In all honesty its pretty great, I scored two kills that I would not have gotten last night and in IL2 its easier to manuever. It takes some practice however.
No more loud groans.
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(http://www.freewebs.com/rivid1/usp280.jpg)