Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: HUN on October 18, 2004, 09:56:24 AM
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I remember when…
A scenario would have all available slots filled up in less than one hour after registration opened. And folks this isn’t just any scenario this is a DoK scenario! This is the guy that invented scenario in its most evil form! As I write this there are only 60 guys signed up for Rangoon an already scaled back version because it is believed that AH community no longer turns out for scenarios. So prove them wrong and sign up.
Where are all you guys that come on the boards on a daily basis lamenting about the abysmal game play of the MA? Where are you early war-bird fans lamenting about the massed La7 and P51d hordes? Where are all the guys just hanging around for TOD? (A scenario is the ultimate TOD)
Giving back to the community and HTC is more than just coming to the boards and posting and flaming. This is your chance to give back to the community and help attract new players to the game and noobs from the MA. With all the “I quit” posts going around wouldn’t you like to see some that start with “I signed up because of the community and the awesome scenarios I heard about.”
Come on AH community stand up and come forth and let us have some fun for a few Saturdays!!!
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133021
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What Hun said! :) To me, scenarios are what Aces High (and AW before it) is all about - the ultimate gameplay experience! I tend to think of the MA - and to a greater extent, the CT - to be merely practice arenas for the scenarios. If you haven't tried a scenario yet, you are missing out on some of the best times you will ever have in Aces High, so don't waste another second - SIGN UP NOW (http://www.innomi.com/rangoon/rangoon_reg.php)! :D
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If you have never flown a scenario you are in for a treat. Unfortunately my work schedule doesn't make it possible for me to attend.
Not to hijack the thread, but there was a time when Hitech et al had pins awarded for scenario participation (back in the Warbirds day). They looked great pinned to the con hat and provided some bragging rights. Any chance of those coming back? It could generate more interest in scenario participation.
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NUTTZ is donating silk P40 jackets to the CO's for Ragoon.
Prior to pins, jacket patches were awarded to participants - I designed these for events I ran. That was a tradition I started way back in AW days. I personally don't have the budget right now to underwrite something like that. Sorry.
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im already signed up.
i wanted to try axis for a change, but when i looked at numbers i saw the usual luftweenie hoarde had gone axis, so i went allied to try and help with the number imparity.
just checked numbers again, appears allies have more now. either it changed overnight or in my stupidity i misread the numbers....
probably the latter :D
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Originally posted by Furball
im already signed up.
i wanted to try axis for a change, but when i looked at numbers i saw the usual luftweenie hoarde had gone axis, so i went allied to try and help with the number imparity.
just checked numbers again, appears allies have more now. either it changed overnight or in my stupidity i misread the numbers....
probably the latter :D
You may have misread available positions with filled positions.
There are a TON of Zekes to fly ... around 150. The Allies have about 90 fighters of various types to stop them.
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One problem I see is that 12 hours after registration opens, all the "best" rides are already overbooked. A player has a better shot at getting one of them by being a walkon rather than signing up (comitting) to fly a "second class" ride. We saw this in the BoB scenario, where all the 109 slots filled up immediately, however, there appeared to be plenty of 109 rides available to the walkons.
My suggestion is to either eliminate these all together, or make them available to all. For example, why not have P40E's or A6M5's available to all, instead of one small group. Or just make it all P40B's and all A6M2's. It seems that this way there would be no issue and you wouldn't have people not signing up beause they can't get the ride they want.
Just my $.02 on ways to make scenarios more appealing to the masses.
Personally, I love flying scenarios and plan to be there. Unfortunately Saturday PM's are tough (Sunday PM's were perfect) so I can't commit to registering and will try to serve as a walkon schedule permitting.
Cheers,
Bazi
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Only about 1/3 of the available slots were pre-registered for the very reason you mentioned. I took some crap for not letting squads sign up en masse and grab all the best rides.
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Yep just signed up for one frame but all "the good rides" were overbooked. I'll still fly what's given though as I see it as a bit more of a challenge.
See you guys there if you're going
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Don't confuse pre-registration with people just being quick to register. There were slots available for all plane types when general registration opened. Really.
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OK, until recently I worked weekends, that is why the BoB scenario was out.
The reasons I don't sign up for them are, I'll admit, a mixture of my uninformed guesses as to how they go as well as imbalanced or unenforced rules.
For example, from what I little I read of the BoB scenario, I gather the Bf110C-4s made mince meat of the Spitfires and Hurricanes. There are a few reasons I think this would be the case, most of them beyond the reach of the people running the scenario. However one of the reasons I understand is that the Bf110s were flying in a totally nonhistorical fashion, e.g. providing very high top cover for the bombers.
The other thing I understand, and this may simply have been Allied whining, is that the RAF was hampered by a radar system that was far, far inferior to what the British really had in WWII and thus were usually having to attack the bombers, let alone the fighters, from an altitude disadvantage.
How do the events run? What I have imagined right now is sitting around waiting for an hour or so, then uping in a structured environment and trying to accomplish the mission with very little enemy contact. If you get shot down that is that for the frame. Essentially hours spent for very little doing.
That is what I imagine it would be. Please correct my misconceptions as taking an A6M2 up against P-40Es and F4F-4s doesn't sound very fun considering how over tough those fighters are modeled and how weak the A6M2 is.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
NUTTZ is donating silk P40 jackets to the CO's for Ragoon.
Prior to pins, jacket patches were awarded to participants - I designed these for events I ran. That was a tradition I started way back in AW days. I personally don't have the budget right now to underwrite something like that. Sorry.
DoKGonZo, Thank you for all your hard work! I didn't know it was you who managed the pins/patches thing....You did a great job!! Too bad Hitech creations can't manage this. I bet even requiring an additional fee of a couple bucks for the patches/pins prior to the event starting would meet with positive response.
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Originally posted by Karnak
...How do the events run? What I have imagined right now is sitting around waiting for an hour or so, then uping in a structured environment and trying to accomplish the mission with very little enemy contact. If you get shot down that is that for the frame. Essentially hours spent for very little doing.
That is what I imagine it would be. Please correct my misconceptions as taking an A6M2 up against P-40Es and F4F-4s doesn't sound very fun considering how over tough those fighters are modeled and how weak the A6M2 is.
I can't comment on how other people run things - I only know what I try to capture in an event.
It *is* possible you'll fly two hours and never see an enemy - if you're in a bomber, this is a good thing - and you'll be sweating the whole time. You'll hear the battle around you even if you aren't in it, though. In a multi-frame event it's rare for folks not to get the crap scared out of them a couple times at least.
The timetable for the event is on the site. All fighters launch at the same time. Allied scout bombers may launch pre-dawn. IJA bombers may delay their launch 15 minutes. But the environment is hostile at T+0. There will be maybe 20 or 30 minutes of climb out and initial scout/sweep activity before some part of the battle will likely be joined.
If you get shot down, you're done for the day. Death has meaning - unlike the MA. Rarely is it for "nothing" given that its a team effort. Some folks may encounter less action than others, but generally the way my events play out once contact is made things escalate rather dramatically. Consider that there is only one target area for the IJA ... what does that tell you about the odds of "very little enemy contact?"
As for the "weakness" of the Zeke-2 ... I flew in it and against it in the CT. With even numbers and altitude it had no problem dicing up P40's and F4F's. None. It accelerates nice, guns are decent, and it's instantaneous dive needs to be respected - obviously it turns and climbs well too. Allied fighters will have an initial altitude edge of only 2000 feet - 14K to 12K. These were the operational altitudes at the time - it won't be folks booming in from 20K.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
As for the "weakness" of the Zeke-2 ... I flew in it and against it in the CT. With even numbers and altitude it had no problem dicing up P40's and F4F's. None. It accelerates nice, guns are decent, and it's instantaneous dive needs to be respected - obviously it turns and climbs well too. Allied fighters will have an initial altitude edge of only 2000 feet - 14K to 12K. These were the operational altitudes at the time - it won't be folks booming in from 20K.
Hmm. My experience is that it take a three minute, one-on-one, fight to kill an F4F-4 with the A6M2 whereas when I am in the F4F-4 I can swat A6M2s like flies. In the one-on-one the A6M2 will probably win, but in a four-on-four I'd be surprised if any of the F4F-4s get shot down. The guns on the A6M2 are a pathetic joke as it takes more than half the cannon load to down an F4F-4. The P-40E is in a totally different class. A P-40E pilot has absolutely no excuse if they get shot down by an A6M2. Even the A6M5 is at a disadvantage against the P-40E, though it does dominate the F4F-4 so long as it doesn't try to turn with it. If the A6M5 tries to turn with the F4F-4 it'll probably be out turned and die.
From what you said it sounds pretty much like I thought. The reason I won't sign up is that I don't see the point of taking the core of my Saturday, for several weeks in a row, to spend hours waiting for something to happen only to be overwhelmed by vastly superior aircraft.
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mmmm FM2..... me goinna go crusher same papare areoplannes!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Karnak
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From what you said it sounds pretty much like I thought. The reason I won't sign up is that I don't see the point of taking the core of my Saturday, for several weeks in a row, to spend hours waiting for something to happen only to be overwhelmed by vastly superior aircraft.
150 IJA fighters to 90 Allied ... uh ... overwhelmed?
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Don't confuse pre-registration with people just being quick to register. There were slots available for all plane types when general registration opened. Really.
I understand this, in fact, that's what I was commenting on, the fact that they get filled up so quickly. Karnack's comments reinforce the point I was trying to get across, as it appears (I may be mistaken) he would not have an issue if it was all A6M2's versus P40B's, or all A6M5's against all P40E's (and the occasional Wildcatofish).
I also understand your trying to be as historically accurate as possible, and I for one agree, but you could make it all P40B/F4F/A6M2 and be accurate and not have the "I can't fly the cool planes" issue I tried to describe in my first post.
Again, just suggestions to get more people interesting in flying what looks like a fun event!
Bazi
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Here's GB's skin for the Ju-88 for Rangoon:
(http://www.gonzoville.com/scenarios/datas/users/1-Betty2.jpg)
So come on bomber types.
More new screen shots are also posted. (http://www.gonzoville.com/scenarios/plug.php?p=gallery&id=4)
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
150 IJA fighters to 90 Allied ... uh ... overwhelmed?
I'd be surprised if the IJ side actually matches the numbers of the Allies. You may wish it to be so and have scheduled it so, but in the actuall event I'll bet the numbers favor the Allies by a good margin. Even numbers as an outside chance. It is, after all, determeined by what people show up to fly and IJ deathtraps are never popular. Look at the CT.
EDIT: In any case, I was speaking to the relative quality of the opposing aircraft, not the numbers.
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Originally posted by Wurger
I understand this, in fact, that's what I was commenting on, the fact that they get filled up so quickly. Karnack's comments reinforce the point I was trying to get across, as it appears (I may be mistaken) he would not have an issue if it was all A6M2's versus P40B's, or all A6M5's against all P40E's (and the occasional Wildcatofish).
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Can't really be helped unless there's some kind of lottery system. Either way, someone's gonna be disappointed.
Having all the same plane is a problem because it provides just way too much information about the enemy force. This hurts because your planning gets skewed. It hurts more because there's a lack of surprise in the air. Now, imagine you're in your oh-so-uber F4F and see a pile of dots you want to bounce. When you engage you suddely find they're A6M5's ... oops. You can't get that fog of war if there's no variety in the plane selections.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I'd be surprised if the IJ side actually matches the numbers of the Allies. You may wish it to be so and have scheduled it so, but in the actuall event I'll bet the numbers favor the Allies by a good margin. Even numbers as an outside chance. It is, after all, determeined by what people show up to fly and IJ deathtraps are never popular. Look at the CT.
Comments about "death traps" aren't helping matters. There's a lot of people doing a lot of work to make this event happen and poisoning the waters this way isn't deserved.
And if the IJA side doesn't fill one of two things will happen: either people will shift over from Allies to keep the odds balanced, or I'll find other ways to make things even up. If you think I'm going to send the IJA guys up against P40's without either an odds advantage or technical parity you're wrong. This is NOT the CT ... I will enforce balance.
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Sorry about being so negative, but I just don't see it that way. I know you've put in a lot of work on this and is is sure as heck easier for me to sit here and deconstruct your effort than it was for you to get up and make the effort to put it together.
Maybe I'm way off base and the community will rise to the occasion, but I just can't see a guy who wanted to fly P-40s or F4F/FM-2s sticking around and flying A6M2s. People seem pretty set in their plane choices. I didn't sign up to AH to fly Axis aircraft, but I usually do if I'm not in the Mossie simply to even the numbers. I signed up for Spitfires, something I never fly now. I was willing to switch, whereas most, as demostrated by the recent ENY hoopla, are not at all willing. What I'd expect is if the numbers of IJ pilots you need do not show up and you ask Allied pilots to switch, most would either wait for the other guys to switch or just log out. It perpetually ends up being the same few guys who are willing to do what is best for the game who don't get to fly what they want.
To me, based on what I've read and what an F4F pilot said in my presence, I really feel strongly that the the F4F is modeled quite optimistically. I know that my recent attempt to get an opposition squad going in the CT garnered no interest. I had two people who actually were interested.
Heck, maybe I'm just in a pessimistic mood. Not that that excuses me crapping on your scenario. Now I'm starting to feel obligated to sign up to make up for it.
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The objective is the Betty's (JU-88) and not the 120+ possible A6Mx escorts for the allies...
I think the effectiveness of an A6Mx is lost in the late-war MA but will be an extremely good match up in the scenario.
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i would like to only comment on this. i think its better that some dont sign up than sign up and dont show up at all or tell you they are not going to be there. the times i was FL in a SE about 1/2 guys that were assigned to my flight did this.
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It is only a game, you cant plan ahead months and expect people to give up RL issues to go spend 3 hours infront of the computer. it just cant happen - you will always get no shows.
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If you look at the forces I have written up, the FM2 is an even more dangerous element than the F4F ... and I included it. Why? Because I want the Allies to have an angles threat. Just the like A6M5 gives the IJA an energy threat. Meaning I'm equally unfair to both sides. :D
I don't know what to expect from registration. We'll see. But when the mission starts I'll take whatever steps I need to that will ensure balance. That could mean giving the IJA a higher percentage of M5 Zeros, downgrading Allied fighters to P40B's instead of E's, changing altitude restrictions, and so on. I have plenty of tools.
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"Here's GB's skin for the Ju-88 for Rangoon"
Nice. Is that screenshot taken using his Cape Breton terrain too?
;)
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Hmm.
I see what you are saying, but in my opinion and experience both the F4F and FM-2 are angles threats and the A6M5 is not an energy threat to anything that is not both slower than it and on the deck. The A6M just gets too heavy past 250mph to be used in that fashion.
But as you say you are prepared with measures if things aren't working.
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Dunno what terrain bed he used.
We're only around 12K here, Karnak - by the time an Allied plane gets in trouble the fight will likely be down around 8K - which is barely enough to dive out of trouble with and still have a little room to spare.
By "energy threat" I don't mean booming in at Ludicrous Speed. I mean the M5 doesn't have to turn flat to kill - it can stay with the Alliied planes in the vertical (and surpass them) if they enter the fight close to co-speed.
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DoK,
After flying in the CT for awhile now, I have no problem flying the AM6 in either version. If I get outta BB's I get outta BB's. I'm not sure I can commit to a signup. But if I have the time I'll galdly walkon exclusivly to fly IJ if thats all this thread is about.
What Day and time PST should I logon? You just make sure if I get in IJ, Karnak gets dumped to the Allies where he belongs....;) :D :D :aok
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Sats @ noon PST.
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Thanks DoK your a gent. :)
In the CT the best I did in an A6M2 was 8 F4U vs 1 A6M2. I killed one and pulled a Saburo Sakai on the remaining 7 for about 5 min. I ran outta BB's and accidentaly rammed one of em.:D
The A6M5 can dive at almost 500. I'd prefer to fly it, but no problemo with either. :)
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Thing is I'm in UK and most of the good stuff happens bang slap in the middle of our night time! its 12:30 am as I post this. Pity as I'd have loved to have fought our finest hour again. So why did everyone sign on that scenario and want to fly 109s don't you chaps know that the spit was the best if not most numerous Bof B fighter ;)
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Originally posted by Tinpot
Thing is I'm in UK and most of the good stuff happens bang slap in the middle of our night time! its 12:30 am as I post this. Pity as I'd have loved to have fought our finest hour again. So why did everyone sign on that scenario and want to fly 109s don't you chaps know that the spit was the best if not most numerous Bof B fighter ;)
Tinpot, have you actually checked the times of the scenario frames? They are 3.00 pm Eastern, which is 8.00 pm here in the UK? We in the CM Team do our best to find a time which is suitable for Europe as well as the US, and 3.00 pm Eastern is a time which has often proved to work well. :)
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Ok I stand corrected I guess I did not check to carefully. will look it up next time though I usualy only play for the odd half hour or so as my job partner dog and motorcycle take up quite a bit of time already lol.
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All of the latest AH scenarios were of a nice design. Won't sign for this one, because not sure about my plans for the next month, but will try to get an account and walkon for this one.
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Originally posted by Tinpot
Ok I stand corrected I guess I did not check to carefully. will look it up next time though I usualy only play for the odd half hour or so as my job partner dog and motorcycle take up quite a bit of time already lol.
LOL.... well if you do find yourself at a loose end on any of the frame days, you can always walk on. ;)
As for other events, any that are not held at a Euro-friendly time (like scenarios and CAP when it is running) have a Euro-friendly equivalent. The Wednesday snapshot has a Euro equivalent on Thursday at 3.00 pm, though not necessarily the same snapshot as different CMs are involved. The Friday Squad Operations has the Sunday Squad Operations as the Euro equivalent, though unfortunately the numbers are not as good at the moment on Sundays. The KOTH also has a Euro equivalent as the E-KOTH and is usually held on the Friday evening of the same weekend as the main event.
See the Special Events server (http://events.hitechcreations.com/) for details of all of our special events. :D
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I've only played for 7months, but I agree that the most fun I've had was the BoB scenario. I flew bombers, and had a blast with the formation flying and the coordinated action.
Unfortunately, as a family guy with active teens, Saturday afternoon is just hard to tie up. I may walk on, but I won't commit if I cant be sure of being there.
By the way, DoK, one of the saving graces of being a bomber guy was the availability of shot down fliers to step in as gunners. Will this option be available? I noticed your "if you're shot down you're dead" comment above, and jsut wondered....
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Without reading 37 posts and at the risk of being redundant the reason why I don't sign up for scenarios is that the Axis weapons, primarily the MGFF and Type 99-1 are all but useless in AH. Add the incredibly generous and robust modelling on all things Allied and it seems like a formula for blown Saturdays. If HTC were ever to get around to properly modelling things I would participate in scenarios. In fact I would look forward to them. As things currently stand my reply is thanks, but no thanks to this and all other scenarios.
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"...the Axis weapons... are all but useless. Add the incredibly generous and robust modelling on all things Allied and it seems like a formula for blown Saturdays. If HTC were ever to get around to properly modelling things..."
No way can I let this pass on by without calling on it . ;) Specifics Storch. Need specifics.
Why in your opinion are the Axis weapons all but useless?
What, in your opinion, is incredibly generous and robust for the Allies?
What is it, in your opinion, has HTC not properly modelled?
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Originally posted by Westy
"...the Axis weapons... are all but useless. Add the incredibly generous and robust modelling on all things Allied and it seems like a formula for blown Saturdays. If HTC were ever to get around to properly modelling things..."
No way can I let this pass on by without calling on it . ;) Specifics Storch. Need specifics.
Why in your opinion are the Axis weapons all but useless?
What, in your opinion, is incredibly generous and robust for the Allies?
What is it, in your opinion, has HTC not properly modelled?
Jump in a 109E or an A6M2 and go kill something (or try to) then post your results. I'm tired of doing it. Quit stealing threads. :D
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Storch,
I feel the same in some cases, but "feel" doesn't really cut it. Would you be interested in testing the actual durability of the F4F and not just our feeling on it? I'd be game on that.
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this will be so awesome!
im signed up for spit/hurri mk1
FM2 as 3rd choice
but i also checked the 'i can change sides' box
whatever you give me i will do my best to kill and stay alive!
i really cant wait.
(please let me have a spit/hurri :) )
thanks to all who make this possible
Batfink
EDIT: (Storch: i landed 2 kills in both hurri mk1, spit mk1 and FM2 in the MA in the past few weeks as practice, i love the challenge! in the spit i got a Yak and a B17, in the hurricane, another yak on the deck and a 109F, cant remember what i got in the FM, but it was in a low alt furball against the usual LALA /Nike/Spit crowd. i lost so many bits off the FM i wouldnt believe it possible to taxi, let alone fly, but she a tough old crate! watch your 6 IJA! such great planes respectively, 8 x Brownings are deadly, the FMs quad 50s are less powerfull IMO, but still do the damage! im a little scared of the zeke's turning and cannons though :) )
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Originally posted by mechanic
this will be so awesome!
im signed up for spit/hurri mk1
FM2 as 3rd choice
but i also checked the 'i can change sides' box
whatever you give me i will do my best to kill and stay alive!
i really cant wait.
(please let me have a spit/hurri :) )
thanks to all who make this possible
Batfink
EDIT: (Storch: i landed 2 kills in both hurri mk1, spit mk1 and FM2 in the MA in the past few weeks as practice, i love the challenge! in the spit i got a Yak and a B17, in the hurricane, another yak on the deck and a 109F, cant remember what i got in the FM, but it was in a low alt furball against the usual LALA /Nike/Spit crowd. i lost so many bits off the FM i wouldnt believe it possible to taxi, let alone fly, but she a tough old crate! watch your 6 IJA! such great planes respectively, 8 x Brownings are deadly, the FMs quad 50s are less powerfull IMO, but still do the damage! im a little scared of the zeke's turning and cannons though :) )
Congratulations!!!!!! Now try that in an axis ride :aok
Karnak it's not about "feelings" It's about hundreds of hours spent in mostly Axis rides. Without a doubt the damage modelling on the ammo for those models is way off. look up my kills I'm sure they will corroborate what you call my "feelings" I may not be a veteran and I admit I'm not very good yet but I do have lots of time playing this game and other games as well. :D
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Can't really be helped unless there's some kind of lottery system. Either way, someone's gonna be disappointed.
Having all the same plane is a problem because it provides just way too much information about the enemy force. This hurts because your planning gets skewed. It hurts more because there's a lack of surprise in the air. Now, imagine you're in your oh-so-uber F4F and see a pile of dots you want to bounce. When you engage you suddely find they're A6M5's ... oops. You can't get that fog of war if there's no variety in the plane selections.
I guess that makes sense! Too bad we don't have a few Ki43's to add to the mix :D I'll definately walk on whenever my schedule permits, and I don't mind flying whatever you need (except maybe the SDB Buffalo!).
Bazi
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Originally posted by Karnak
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I feel the same in some cases, but "feel" doesn't really cut it. Would you be interested in testing the actual durability of the F4F and not just our feeling on it? I'd be game on that.
All I know is I flew the F4F a few times in the CT and when I got the least bit careless I was dead awful damn fast. Not from tracking shots, but the M2 cut inside my turns and loops so hard that it was more like 1-burst pilot kills or wings getting blowed off.
If I got real slow and tried to dive away with less than 5K under me, the M2 could hang right on my tail because that wasn't enough room to dive real steeply.
I don't know if the M2 is modelled "right" or not. All I do know from testing is that it's a dangerous little plane against aircraft that it's supposed to be facing. And that's all I'm concerned with for the event.
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"go kill something (or try to) then post your results."
I did in beta. (note: I did not continue further with AH-II due to other IMO more serious gameplay issues such as suiciding heavy bombers for one example; fantasy main arena setup being another).
Anyway. I found each plane was delightfully different but using a 109, Zeke or KI-67 to get kills was a piece of cake.
From your last post however I think I see the root fo the problem. I'm hearing you base your presumptions about HTC's supposed "bad" modelling on your game ability and how long you've been playing "flight sims."
"... it's not about "feelings" It's about hundreds of hours spent in mostly Axis rides. Without a doubt the damage modelling on the ammo for those models is way off. look up my kills I'm sure they will corroborate what you call my "feelings"
Sorry to say but "feelings" will never convince any developer of any game anywhere out there that they modelled anything wrong. There very well may be but your convictions that something is askew being based on feelings and game experience is kind of funny.
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DoKGonZo,
My experience from the A6M2's perspective is that unless I get lucky and take the F4F-4's elevators off it is a multi-minute struggle to kill it as the A6M2 only turns very slightly better and rolls substantially worse. Once you have a good solution from very short range it takes about two seconds of fire, sometimes three, e.g. 40 to 60 rounds whereas when I am in the F4F it taks a quarter second or less and a lot less ammo to kill the A6M2. The F4F-4 feels tougher than some GVs to me.
Westy,
Which 109 and which A6M? The Bf109E and A6M2 do not carry the same cannons as the latter 109s or A6M.
I assume you meant Ki-61-I-Tei when you said Ki-67 given that the Ki-67 is a bomber. The Ki-61-I-Tei has very good guns and I don't see how it is relevant to the MG/FF and Type 99 Model 1 issue Storch and I mentioned.
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Karnak I flew all the fighters enabled during beta so whichever 109's and Zeke's were there I gave it a shot. I only added the KI-61 (cc on the bonmber vs fighter error) as I've read many posts over time from people saying they could not hit a barn with that planes guns too.
My feelings are that HTC strives to model ballistics as accurately as they and I strngly feel that HTC most certainly does not fudge one side against another for gameplay purposes.
I feel HTC does this very well with all of the weapons for all of the aircraft they have modelled.
My feelings are if people have problems landing hits and getting kills in the MA it's due to thier hotas or skill.
Furthermore, my feelings are that a lack of getting solid hits, or a kill, with a Zeke or 109 in a scenario is due to player inexperience, player being overly excited, player failing to coordinate with wingmen and/or a players lack of SA in a more WWII era type of environment (in comparison to the MA it is anyway)
I've now matched feelings with feelings
IMO AH feels right..
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*Karnak don't forget this :
The Allied squadrons field 88 fighters and 9 scout bombers. The Japanese squadrons can launch 18-27 bombers and 148-157
The raw number favor the japanese.
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Originally posted by storch
Congratulations!!!!!! Now try that in an axis ride :aok
lol. tried a 109F4 the other day, couldnt kill squat in that, the poor visability and slow responses made the 'non-fuel injected' RAF mk1 problems seems like a golden nose bleed!
Those crazy krauts who used to fly solo over the channel and bomb us limeys in thier BF109F/Es had just as much, if not more balls as the RAF pilots facing hundreds of enemy planes during BoB.
WW1: RFC flew offensive over axis land, LW stayed put behind thier lines. Many RFC pilots died or lost
WW2: RAF stayed deffensive prior to D-Day, and LW flew offensive over enemy territory. Many lost on both sides.
not sure what im getting at, other than i feel i missed a period in historical combat that can never be seen again. ever.
i was born 85 years to early, and will most probably die 150 years too late ;)
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it was quite astounding the developement over such a short period, or even the evolution from the birth of manned flight to the end of the war, and onwards.
will endevour to land some in an F4 forthwith.
Ki-61 is a doddle, a walk in the park mate! those guns shred buffs to pieces, let alone little spitty's and lala's.
and as for the zeke, one could out fly any plane in that.
if they have E and alt, you evade so easily.
if they are co-alt, they will never get on your 6 flown correctly.
F4-F VS Zeke? you having a Girraffe??
A6 could beat 3 F4-s i reakon, given equal advantage aside from numbers.
anyhow, its getting late and they want to lock the cell door and give me my injections again.
what wrong or 'crazy' about talking to trees??
Batfink
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Westy,
It isn't a matter of ballistics or hitting. I am sure those are correct, or close enough to make no real difference. The issue is the over durability of the F4F-4. It puts the P-47 to shame and seems nearly as tough as the IL-2. Now it seems that either the 20mm cannon on the A6M2 are not doing as much damage as they should or the F4F-4 is overly durable.
The other issue is that the F4F-4 is only slightly less manuverable than the A6M2. It seems impossible that an aircraft that is so over built as to be able to shrug off 20mm cannon hits should be so nearly a match in manuverability of an aircraft that has sacrificed any concept of durability for manuverability.
These two things combine to make the A6M2 have to really work for the kill, even if the F4F-4 pilot is an idiot, whereas the briefest crossing shot from an F4F-4 blows the A6M2 to bits.
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Originally posted by storch
Congratulations!!!!!! Now try that in an axis ride :aok
Storch! You're slipping, `ol boy. I thought you'd gotten past all this. I guarantee you that the Axis planes in AH are every bit as deadly and effective as the Allied rides. You know how I know. :D
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Originally posted by Westy
"
"... it's not about "feelings" It's about hundreds of hours spent in mostly Axis rides. Without a doubt the damage modelling on the ammo for those models is way off. look up my kills I'm sure they will corroborate what you call my "feelings"
Sorry to say but "feelings" will never convince any developer of any game anywhere out there that they modelled anything wrong. There very well may be but your convictions that something is askew being based on feelings and game experience is kind of funny.
Westy,
apparently English comprehension isn't your strong suit. Never the less as I said thanks but no thanks.
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"You're slipping, `ol boy. I thought you'd gotten past all this. "
lol Arlo. Past all this? Looks like it huh?. He spouts alot of exagerated claims but he never backs it up with any shred of evidence. Not even a teensy little bit such as using the ingame film feature to record what he'd seen or experienced.
A good example of a player using a minimal amount of time and low tech means was shown by a WWIIO player recently. He though the damage model was porked on the bombers so he used an 88 ack gun and fired directly on the wings and engines of the DB7. the less than a minute long video shows withouith a doubt things are fubared.
see: http://mnemeth1.brinkster.net/DHB/Movies/ThisIsGay2.wmv
One would figure Storch would had some of this figured it out by now. Especially after the time he accused HTC of giving the Spit an anti gravity device. Only to discover he had the stall limiter on. ;)
http://216.91.192.19/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120211
Karnak there may indeed be something wrong with the F4F damage model. You've been around long enough to know there is a process to go thru before they'll review something though. Two players could test it out in just a few minutes easily enough. I'd volunteer but we'd have to meet in a H2H session.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Westy,
It isn't a matter of ballistics or hitting. I am sure those are correct, or close enough to make no real difference. The issue is the over durability of the F4F-4. It puts the P-47 to shame and seems nearly as tough as the IL-2. Now it seems that either the 20mm cannon on the A6M2 are not doing as much damage as they should or the F4F-4 is overly durable.
The other issue is that the F4F-4 is only slightly less manuverable than the A6M2. It seems impossible that an aircraft that is so over built as to be able to shrug off 20mm cannon hits should be so nearly a match in manuverability of an aircraft that has sacrificed any concept of durability for manuverability.
These two things combine to make the A6M2 have to really work for the kill, even if the F4F-4 pilot is an idiot, whereas the briefest crossing shot from an F4F-4 blows the A6M2 to bits.
I recall a past post on this issue, I believe by wotan in which it was ackowledeged that the MGFF and the Type 99-1 were not modelled correctly and that it would all be set right in AH2. Aside from that I have had occasions where I've behind an F4F-4 in an A6M2 under D100 firing cannon only, observed a dozen or so sprites out of 20 rds fired only to have the F4F-4 fly away with no apparent damage. Actually the bbs are more effective at killing stuff than the cannons. Most of my kills in the A6M2 are from "the bbs of death". You can stay with them long enough to knock off an aileron then gnaw on them until the tail feathers come off. In BoB maps I fly the 110C exclusively.
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Originally posted by Westy
"You're slipping, `ol boy. I thought you'd gotten past all this. "
lol Arlo. Past all this? Looks like it huh?. He spouts alot of exagerated claims but he never backs it up with any shred of evidence. Not even a teensy little bit such as using the ingame film feature to record what he'd seen or experienced.
A good example of a player using a minimal amount of time and low tech means was shown by a WWIIO player recently. He though the damage model was porked on the bombers so he used an 88 ack gun and fired directly on the wings and engines of the DB7. the less than a minute long video shows withouith a doubt things are fubared.
see: http://mnemeth1.brinkster.net/DHB/Movies/ThisIsGay2.wmv
One would figure Storch would had some of this figured it out by now. Especially after the time he accused HTC of giving the Spit an anti gravity device. Only to discover he had the stall limiter on. ;)
http://216.91.192.19/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120211
Karnak there may indeed be something wrong with the F4F damage model. You've been around long enough to know there is a process to go thru before they'll review something though. Two players could test it out in just a few minutes easily enough. I'd volunteer but we'd have to meet in a H2H session.
You fly H2H only???
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"You fly H2H only???"
No way. And I closed my day-one account earlier this year as I grew intolerant (and bored to tears) with the current state of MA "gameplay."
I was offering to plug in my joystick and fly some H2H to assist in coming up with a video showing anything noticeably wrong with the F4F. My thinking is that should there be anything amiss and it gets fixed now it would make AH-TOD better.
H2H? Yuck. The type of "arcade entertainment" I encountered during my brief (*very* brief) forays onto H2H hosts was worse than anything I'd seen in the "MA". I'd rather my CH hotas collect dust (which it has and in abundance too).
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Originally posted by mechanic
this will be so awesome!
im signed up for spit/hurri mk1
FM2 as 3rd choice
(please let me have a spit/hurri :) )
thanks to all who make this possible
Batfink
When are you usually online? I'd like to set up some practice sessions and get some time in before the scenario starts. You can email me or post here on the BB.
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(1) I think there's a general problem with gunnery on dead-6 shots. There've been a couple threads lately about gunnery effectiveness of various weapons and it always seems to boil down to "I dump half my ammo on so-and-so from dead 6 and nothing happens." I flew the F4F, P40E, and A6M2 in the CT a week ago and saw nothing that would indicate that given 3:2 odds that the A6M2 is at any kind of disadvantage. More often than not it took 3 US planes to bring down pesky Zero's, whereas a 2:1 on an Allied plane usually ended very quick.
(2) Pacific events - especially early war - are the most lopsided in terms of technology. You have completely divergent aircraft design philosophies facing each other. That also makes it one of the most interesting theatres to do scenarios in. Especially early war where things happen slower and closer in - it's a very different atmosphere. And it's also as far removed from the MA as possible.
(3) Because of the presumption of Pacific events being nothing more than staged "turkey shoots" these events are also harder to get people to fly in. I knew that going in - but they just did a Battle of Britain so that removed a bunch of options. And I didn't want to do a scenario that featured mostly planes that are the standard of the MA every night. That left the Pacific. This is a very interesting battle and the event design has a lot of fog of war aspects built in to keep it interesting (though I doubt that's the adjective the CO's are using at the moment ... hehe).
(4) A number of people stepped up to get this thing run in a hurry - terrain beds, jackets, CO's, skins, etc. - so I really am put off by those who seem to want to scare folks off from flying or who are otherwise portending doom or airing their own agendas at the event's expense. For a lot of people, once they play in a good scenario they can't get enough and the MA can never compete with the rush of scenario flying. So why ruin it for people who've never tried one before? If you don't want to fly because you don't like the planes or you only fly if you can fly with your squad - fine. But if you want big events (more than 4 missions) in the years to come, you better support (even if only vocally) what's being done or this stuff will whither and die.
(5) My events aren't like other people's. Historic match-ups are only part of what I go for. I also strive to recreate the atmosphere - the kinds of tactics, stresses, and decisions that the pilots 60+ years ago had to face. Some of the rules I am using don't make sense taken alone - but taken together there is a "big picture" which does make sense - though you may not see it until you start flying missions. In ways my events are like advanced flight school - everyone from individual pilots to CO's is in one way or another forced to think and perform outside the envelope they're used to.
(6) Following up on (5), scenarios also let people bring out skills that may not matter in the MA. Some folks are great scouts - somehow always able to find the enemy formations first. Some folks are great teachers of ACM while others are great flight leaders even if not the best dogfighters. The cool thing about a scenario is that it lets people who may otherwise be anonymous in the MA to shine through in a team-based environment. When all the clutter and noise of the MA is removed a lot can change.
(7) I'm not sure what expectations are given the way the CT and MA operate, but I won't send people up on a scenario mission if both sides don't have an equal shot of winning. If the IJA side doesn't fill then I'll adjust the aircraft types, altitudes, ordinance load-outs, radar or whatever else is needed to maintain balance and flow. I won't allow "gamey" mission plans to be run either, but neither will I ruin the flow of the event over miniscule rulesmanship. Bottom line: I take my responsibility to those who sign up to fly very, very personally.
OK. That's enough.
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Originally posted by Westy
"You fly H2H only???"
No way. And I closed my day-one account earlier this year as I grew intolerant (and bored to tears) with the current state of MA "gameplay."
I was offering to plug in my joystick and fly some H2H to assist in coming up with a video showing anything noticeably wrong with the F4F. My thinking is that should there be anything amiss and it gets fixed now it would make AH-TOD better.
H2H? Yuck. The type of "arcade entertainment" I encountered during my brief (*very* brief) forays onto H2H hosts was worse than anything I'd seen in the "MA". I'd rather my CH hotas collect dust (which it has and in abundance too).
How very noble of you. I agree about the MA BTW.
DokGonzo, you are a fine salesman sir. You flew in the CT last week yet I don't recall seeing you there. Do you have a different game ID?
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Originally posted by storch
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DokGonzo, you are a fine salesman sir. You flew in the CT last week yet I don't recall seeing you there. Do you have a different game ID?
Yes I use a secret identity ... I emailed HTC to revive my "public" account for scenario and testing efforts but never heard back ... so I remain cloaked in mystery and myth ... the way I like it.
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BTW ... Allied staff has been testing both side's rides (as I'm sure the Axis staff has) and have noticed that the gun package on the A6M5 is VERY lethal at 450 yds versus all Allied planes. The A6M2's guns were only slightly less lethal - their chief drawback actually being ammo load. It is by no means a spray and pray plane. BOTH the A6M2 and 5 were nimble enough to stay out of Allied guns in a 1v1.
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Scenarios are a lot of fun Storch, you should reconsider. 880 is flying A6M2s, and we are looking forward to it.
Did you miss BoB? Pity if you did, being a JG unit and all.
Warloc
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Yes I use a secret identity ... I emailed HTC to revive my "public" account for scenario and testing efforts but never heard back ... so I remain cloaked in mystery and myth ... the way I like it.
Mystery and myth eh? we have a name for that where I'm from ;)
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problem with scenarios is
1 they almost always run late.
2 after an hour they turn into a MA situation.
3 there is unrelenting questions about the rules from begining to end.
4 the results( i think) are bent to fit into the scenario box..(we want a historical result . so we make it historical regardless)
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
When are you usually online? I'd like to set up some practice sessions and get some time in before the scenario starts. You can email me or post here on the BB.
hey, i usually play a bit from thursday to sunday.
i am up for training in the DA also if ya like.
hit me with a message: BatfinkV@flightsims.info
what did you sign up for?
bat
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Originally posted by SELECTOR
problem with scenarios is
1 they almost always run late.
2 after an hour they turn into a MA situation.
3 there is unrelenting questions about the rules from begining to end.
4 the results( i think) are bent to fit into the scenario box..(we want a historical result . so we make it historical regardless)
To answer your gripes in order:
1) You mean start late? Yeah ... that's always a problem and can't be helped much. But after doing this so often I'm pretty good at making last minute adjustments to compensate and get people off pretty close to on-time.
2) My events don't turn into the MA. No attacks on AAA or radar are allowed. No running off-map is allowed. Strict altitude and formation restrictions are in place. My events focus on planning and executing a proper strike mission and interception of one. When players get it right, they never forget the experience.
3) Rules. Yeah. Well if you read the Rangoon write-up obviously I've been through this before (I invented the genre). I back up the rules with discussion of their intent and stay involved with the command topics in the forum to make sure everyone understands what they should do and what they should expect.
4) I don't design events to recreate a historical result. I pick battles which are interesting and preferably asymmetrical in at least one dimension. I start with a point in history and then build around it instead of matching it. Rangoon is such an example - in real life the Allies were hopelessly outnumbered. But that's no fun, so I took a left turn at history and said: "OK, lets assume after the first couple attempts the IJA decided to wipe out all Allied air assets in the assault and brought up reinforcements, and that the Allies decided to make a stand with everything they could spare in the CBI theatre."
As I've said before, I don't know how other people do things or what's gone on before. I just know how I run the show. My events are very difficult and demand good planning and flawless execution to achieve victory.
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Originally posted by Squire
Scenarios are a lot of fun Storch, you should reconsider. 880 is flying A6M2s, and we are looking forward to it.
Did you miss BoB? Pity if you did, being a JG unit and all.
Warloc
Ok squire, you and the internet man of mystery have piqued my interest. I'll PM ya. I have a sneaking suspicion he may be Al Gore with all these claims of inventing and such.
warloc, the system wouldn't allow me to e mail you
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Originally posted by storch
Ok squire, you and the internet man of mystery have piqued my interest. I'll PM ya. I have a sneaking suspicion he may be Al Gore with all these claims of inventing and such.
You must be relatively new to the on-line "air-combat' world or just un-informed about some of it's history. Any AW, WB or AH veteran will vouch for DoK’s credentials. He's no Al Gore... DoK invented the "scenario" format in AW.
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FYI Westy... those Ju88 skins are mine and the picture was taken over the actual Rangoon terrain. Not sure what you mean about Cape Breton (although I've been there and it's beautiful).
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Originally posted by mechanic
lol. tried a 109F4 the other day, couldnt kill squat in that,
Not to get way off topic but 109f4 is a good plane, don't dismiss it so quickly. In fact has best K/D ratio of all the 109's this tour.
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I would love to fly Rangoon, I would have loved to fly BoB, but who the hell has 3:00 on a Saturday free.
Sorry unless you run the scenario at different times, I.e. 9:00PM EST Tuesday nights as well as the Saturday event then you won't get me.
So all you people crying "Cmon community buck up", I cry back - Cmon Scenario people give us some options on the times that the scenario's are running.
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mars 3pm is a good euro time..(8pm in uk) 9est would make it 2 am..uk ..3am western europe..
if you had to choose between 3 pm and 3 am ?
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Schedule conflict :-(
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I had no control over the time. We needed to get this event done before year's end because the alternative was like Feb/Mar and I don't even know where I'll be living then.
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docgonzo.. i dont know what scenarios you have run. but the scenarios i have taken part in have had all the comments i made..
i flew bob last event .. first frame was good.. 2nd frame was ok.. 3rd frame like ma.. being directed all over the map like crazy turned into furball, numbers were lower than first 2. 4 frame didn't bother.
event before that was a pacific event...had problem getting orders. turned up for event,, flew for a while over endless ocean,, got bored, left, didnt show for any more frames.
event before that was a european scenario..i was in bombers, 1st frame flew dire3ct to target to get shot down.
2nd fram flew direct to target to get shot down.
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Can you run the same scenario more than once during the same week?
If so, you could have the Rangoon at say some time during a week night, which I would be able to sign up for.
You could continue to do the weekend one and maybe another time to accomodate another schedual.
I never understood why the scenarions only ran on Saturdays at 3:00 and no other time during the week.
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Originally posted by SELECTOR
docgonzo.. i dont know what scenarios you have run. but the scenarios i have taken part in have had all the comments i made..
...
If the orders you were given got you killed, that's not the fault of the event itself.
The transit times for Rangoon will be long - bombers have a 90 minute round trip. I expect things to start getting shot at within the first 30 minutes though. But if you can't stay interested that long this probably isn't for you.
There's plenty of info on my sites about event design, so I don't feel much need to defend my work here.
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Originally posted by mars01
Can you run the same scenario more than once during the same week?
If so, you could have the Rangoon at say some time during a week night, which I would be able to sign up for.
You could continue to do the weekend one and maybe another time to accomodate another schedual.
I never understood why the scenarions only ran on Saturdays at 3:00 and no other time during the week.
I wanted to run one weeknight per week but what I was told was that far too few people would sign up for those missions. Weeknight missions usually are more poorly attended - always have been. Given what I'm seeing for sign-ups thus far, I'd have to say that was the right call.
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Well I guess you really don't know if you don't try.
What do you have to lose. Give people the option if you don't get enough to sign up for that time slot then simple you cancel it.
I know I would make it a point to join the Weeknight scenario and the way the MA is these days I would bet you could get alot of others that are looking for a change from the MA doldrums.
Just a thought.
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Originally posted by mars01
Well I guess you really don't know if you don't try.
What do you have to lose. Give people the option if you don't get enough to sign up for that time slot then simple you cancel it.
I know I would make it a point to join the Weeknight scenario and the way the MA is these days I would bet you could get alot of others that are looking for a change from the MA doldrums.
Just a thought.
This came together very fast, mars. Just no time to try something like that.
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Originally posted by HUN
You must be relatively new to the on-line "air-combat' world or just un-informed about some of it's history. Any AW, WB or AH veteran will vouch for DoK’s credentials. He's no Al Gore... DoK invented the "scenario" format in AW.
I am new and also uninformed. I browsed Barnes and Noble for "The History of Cartoon Aerial Warfare" but couldn't locate it. Sorry. :D
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Rgr Dok,
If you do any in the future, keep it in mind.
A few months back I read "A Flying Tigers Diary" and would have loved to participate. Weekends are out of the question tho.
Thanks for your efforts in the community,
It may not always feel like they are appreciated but I am sure they are.
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Originally posted by storch
I am new and also uninformed. I browsed Barnes and Noble for "The History of Cartoon Aerial Warfare" but couldn't locate it. Sorry. :D
It's because you were searching the wrong title.
Try this one:
WarBirds: The Story so far...
by
Dave "Prophet" Williams
Geof "DocDoom" Evans
Duane "Krod" Godwin
Michael "Burbank" Hyde
Published by Burbank's Books, 1999
ISBN 0958519498
Or this one:
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?
q3=hAaP3oDE4Gs%253d
Or you could just do a newsgroup search for Air Warrior &/or WarBirds.
Might even learn something. This hobby does have it's history and uh, "personalities." ;)
h
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Originally posted by mars01
Rgr Dok,
If you do any in the future, keep it in mind.
...
My preference would have been Sat afternoon and Tuesday evening for 4 weeks. Just wasn't in the cards this time.
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Originally posted by storch
I am new and also uninformed. I browsed Barnes and Noble for "The History of Cartoon Aerial Warfare" but couldn't locate it. Sorry. :D
T-Rex A'la Mode (http://www.gonzoville.com/page.php?id=19) (About 3/4 of the way down describes how scenarios started)
History of WB Scenarios (http://www.gonzoville.com/page.php?id=43)
Hardly cartoon at all either. First event I ever ran was back in '92 - Kursk I. One of the guys flying Germany was a Viet Nam vet - at the end of the mission he came back into the conference room and said his hands were shaking from the tension and excitement. He had a ball.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
T-Rex A'la Mode (http://www.gonzoville.com/page.php?id=19) (About 3/4 of the way down describes how scenarios started)
History of WB Scenarios (http://www.gonzoville.com/page.php?id=43)
Hardly cartoon at all either. First event I ever ran was back in '92 - Kursk I. One of the guys flying Germany was a Viet Nam vet - at the end of the mission he came back into the conference room and said his hands were shaking from the tension and excitement. He had a ball.
Interesting read. It's still cartoons. get over it.
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Originally posted by storch
Interesting read. It's still cartoons. get over it.
Bite me (tm).
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Bite me (tm).
well that pretty much settles your cartoon scenarios for me then. carry on playing with yourself.
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Originally posted by storch
well that pretty much settles your cartoon scenarios for me then.
Thanks for your valuable input ... whatever it was.
I'm really surprised to see a CT regular have this attitude.
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Storch ... buddy ...
Ya don't gotta play it so there's no real need to protest. But seriously, bro ... you like to argue with walls then ram your head into them repeatedly way too often. ;)
p.s. Hope ya get around to changin' yer mind on this. We could use you (and many others). Ya'll really don't know what you're missing ... even if you think you do. :D
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glenbold@telus.net
Im having troubles with the profiles as well, I send off email but I get the suspicion they are not being received, either that, or the entire world hates me, wait, that might be it...
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Originally posted by Squire
glenbold@telus.net
Im having troubles with the profiles as well, I send off email but I get the suspicion they are not being received, either that, or the entire world hates me, wait, that might be it...
I don't know if the "send email to profile" works ... I've never gotten a response from anyone I tried to email through it. And PM's are disabled.
You can contact me via the "Contact" link on my sites, or drop by the Rangoon forums to discuss with the CO's.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I don't know if the "send email to profile" works ...
Yes it does, providing a valid email address has been supplied and the person concerned has specified that they wish to receive emails. I have had many emails sent to me through these forums over the last few years. I was going to try sending one to you, but: Sorry! That user has specified that they do not wish to receive emails through this board. If you still wish to send an email to this user, please contact the administrator and they may be able to help.
;)