Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKcurly on October 20, 2004, 12:57:13 AM
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http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
A bit technical read, but a clear approach to solving the petroleum problem.
Send the link to your congress critter. :)
curly
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Sounds like it has real potential. Wouldn't it be great to eliminate dependence on foreign oil and have a virtually unlimited fuel source? Now, if they can just get that annoying knock out of diesel engines. :aok
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I wonder if the biodiesel would become so good alternative.
Sounds to me like wind power laid horizontally -> needs alot of land compared to usage -> it's not ideal to every year grow the same stuff on same piece of land... for years and years that is.
Hydrogen sounds good for the availability.. downside is that it needs a whopping new engine.
I wonder if an another kind of biodiesel would be possible. biodiesel created by bacterias... those just doesn't like living in oil or diesel very well :>
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Nothing is free. In 100 years left leaning progressives of the day will be cursing the Algea Bio Diesel mega corporations for polluting the atmosphere with enormous amounts of oxygen from the algea fields... Environmental advocvates will cry out against the destruction of precisus drylands and their conversion to algea farms.. Rainforests will be suffocating from the lack of CO2 and the world, as always, will be only a few decades from destruction...
And it will all be your fault curly..
:)
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Why ask Congress to do something that the market will take care of when the time comes? The government will just waste half the money we give them and do a poor job with the rest.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Why ask Congress to do something that the market will take care of when the time comes? The government will just waste half the money we give them and do a poor job with the rest.
I thought the exact same thing when I read his post. Why call in the government...?
Keep government as far away from it as possible.
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BIODIESEL GREEN IS PEOPLE!!! :D
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The private sector is notorious for ignoring superior technology as long as something cheaper/more profitable is still available. Sometimes that is good, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it takes a gentle nudge from Uncle Sam to point industry in the right direction.
After all, it isn't the goodness of the corporations' hearts that caused them to better monitor pollution and waste disposal. It isn't the CEOs who demanded an end to child labor and the shareholders sure weren't the ones concerned about employee working conditions and safety.
The free market is a powerful force, but sometimes it needs a little guidance from a higher authority.
J_A_B
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Hydrogen fuel isnt economical because of all the energy that is required to extract it.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Hydrogen fuel isnt economical because of all the energy that is required to extract it.
how is it extracted?
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I used to produce hydrogen as a kid.....made my own hydrogen "balloons'" out of very large garbage bags. And I didn't use electrolysis.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Why ask Congress to do something that the market will take care of when the time comes? The government will just waste half the money we give them and do a poor job with the rest.
Couldn't agree more, Funked. But a little boost along the way, incentives of some sort, encouraging diesel engines and discouraging production of gas engines would go a long way.
One of the best features of the bio diesel idea is using feeder rivers to the gulf as the water source. The algae remove most of the nitrogen that's causing so many problems in the gulf.
curly
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The private sector is notorious for ignoring superior technology as long as something cheaper/more profitable is still available.
How can something be superior when something else is cheaper and more profitable?
If algae biodiesel turns out to be feasable the Greens will be against it because it will pollute the air just as much as petroleum
diesel. They just want us to ride bicycles from our communes to the food co-op.
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Originally posted by NUKE
I used to produce hydrogen as a kid.....made my own hydrogen "balloons'" out of very large garbage bags. And I didn't use electrolysis.
I forgot... was it by dropping sodium into water or was it magnesium?
I do believe that is an extremely inefficient way to produce hydrogen.
Then again... I'll have to read the article at work, because I'm finding it very difficult to believe "biodeisel" is all that efficient to produce either.
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Thankfully Bush is one of the driving forces behind alternative fuel sources:
U.S. Department of Agriculture Announces Bioenergy
Program Signup
Signup for the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Bioenergy Program for Fiscal Year 2002 was held from September 4 through September 28, 2001. The program stimulates industrial consumption of agricultural commodities by promoting their use in bioenergy production, a significant element of President Bush's energy development policy. "President Bush's energy policy calls for increased production of renewable energy sources," said Agriculture Secretary Ann M. Veneman. "This program provides incentives for agriculture to be part of this nation's energy solutions and we expect even greater production levels this year."
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Might be interesting to note that every single president since nixon has promised to try to reduce our dependance on foreign oil.
None have succeeded
I'd be willing to bet good money neither Bush nor Kerry will either
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Originally posted by NUKE
I used to produce hydrogen as a kid.....made my own hydrogen "balloons'" out of very large garbage bags. And I didn't use electrolysis.
cool, how?
biodiesel looks like a bloody good alternative. certainly more viable than hydrogen, and more usefull overall than solar/wind.
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I wonder why he didn't break it down all the way to price per gallon of biodiesel vs price per gallon of diesel and just compare it to biodiesel vs diesel costs. The numbers themselves are skewed from every aspect.
MiniD
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If the oil barrel prices will continue to grow rapidly, these kinds of alternatives will pop out in no time. If or when they have been mass produced for some years, the costs will come down. I mean spiralling down, with gene manipulation to become more efficent etc. Crop based diesel has the advantage, that it will have lots of competition unlike Opec trust. It just needs the initial push whether its government money or the barrel prices rocketing up.
I dont think the crop rotation would be a problem.
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Doesnt matter to me what fuel im burning so long as the engine makes cool sounds.
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FWIW, Bio-diesel in this area costs $3.50 a gallon.
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There was another thread with a link for bio-fuel. That company was using waste from a turkey processing plant.
Just think if we could make it so NO ONE had to buy oil from the Arabs anymore. What would that do to the middle east?
This guys process can turn almost any kind of waste including, sewage, old tires, animal waste, old computers etc, etc, etc, into a light crude. Basically ANY carbon based waste can be converted to crude. The only difference is the *cook times*. Even the big oil companies would benefit since they produce waste that can be reprocessed into crude again.
Companies like that Con-Agra turkey plant in Carthage Missouri pay to have the waste removed. Now they can pay to have it removed and see it turned into oil.
http://www.realdemocracy.com/cheapoil.htm
http://lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/ar-news/Week-of-Mon-20030804/004435.html
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/4/24/02152/3927
There was another article from a newspaper in Missouri that stated the plant was in a test mode and should have been running in production mode last January I believe. Also, there were advaced negotiations in progress to open 4 more plants, one here in Colorado, one in Italy and I cant recall where the other 2 where gonna be.
*edit* almost forgot, this guy that had the plant built in Carthage estimates that they can eventually get the price per barrel down to $10-$12 per barrel. If he does in fact get the prices that low we can say good-bye to Arab oil. That would mean no more super-tankers spilling oil, lower gas prices for EVERYONE.
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Originally posted by Mini D
I wonder why he didn't break it down all the way to price per gallon of biodiesel vs price per gallon of diesel and just compare it to biodiesel vs diesel costs. The numbers themselves are skewed from every aspect.
MiniD
it says on one of the many pages of this site, you can make biodiesel for as little as 50 cents a gallon.
http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html (http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html)
can't remb which page it was on. a lot of info about a lot of things can be found there.
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Question,
Why is it we havent put more emphasis on Alcohol.
Doesnt Alcohol burn practically pollution free?
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
BIODIESEL GREEN IS PEOPLE!!! :D
LOL,
think I'll watch that this weekend.
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you guys do realize that algae screams when it is harvested?
lazs
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Question,
Why is it we havent put more emphasis on Alcohol.
Doesnt Alcohol burn practically pollution free?
blame it on the BATF
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Originally posted by lazs2
you guys do realize that algae screams when it is harvested?
lazs
When Curly first showed this to me I had visions of some algae experiment going awry and covering the entire world, kinda like kudzu. ;)
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Been saying it for about a year now. Rudolph Diesel's vision was that biodiesel would boost agriculture where it was used.
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so instead of relying on arab oil we'll depend on asian seaweed farms.
crazy world indeed ;)
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Interesting read.......I have to study this more...
Almost sounds like Ethanol - fuel from corn... What most people don't realize is that it takes more energy to make Ethanol (in most cases) than you derive.... Only government subsidies used to keep this process alive. I do understand there have been some improvements. If the process had to stand on its own, I doubt it could.
The other great dream is Fuel Cells. Run on Hydrogen. I don't see them working for many years, if ever, in industrial application on a broad scale.
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http://www.biodiesel.org/
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Originally posted by TalonX
Interesting read.......I have to study this more...
Almost sounds like Ethanol - fuel from corn... What most people don't realize is that it takes more energy to make Ethanol (in most cases) than you derive.... Only government subsidies used to keep this process alive. I do understand there have been some improvements. If the process had to stand on its own, I doubt it could.
not according to this http://www.journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html (http://www.journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html)
The non-profit American Coalition for Ethanol says ethanol production is "extremely energy efficient", with a positive energy balance of 125%, compared to 85% for gasoline, making ethanol production "by far the most efficient method of producing liquid transportation fuels".
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Originally posted by NUKE
I used to produce hydrogen as a kid.....made my own hydrogen "balloons'" out of very large garbage bags. And I didn't use electrolysis.
I think you mean methane
Hydrogen is split from H2O by electrolyses and it takes a lot of electricity to do it, more energy then it releases.
Methane IS used at many landfills to power incinerators or you may see it being burned at night (flame is really hard to see in daylight) at the vent.
I have read about methane being used at dairy ranches for heat after it is produced from manure.
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I make methane 24/7.
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Hydrogen is very easy to produce without electricity Scootter, and Nuke didn't say anything about water either!
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The non-profit American Coalition for Ethanol says ethanol production is "extremely energy efficient", with a positive energy balance of 125%, compared to 85% for gasoline, making ethanol production "by far the most efficient method of producing liquid transportation fuels".
That's why there's a subsidy of 54 cents per gallon of ethanol that comes out of our highway funds to make it economically competitive with gasoline.
Charon
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Question,
Why is it we havent put more emphasis on Alcohol.
Doesnt Alcohol burn practically pollution free?
they tried, but the FDB's kept stealing shipments.
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On my last trip down to Brazil you could buy 3 kinds of fuel at a gas station. Gasoline, Ethonal or 100% Alchol. All cars there ( built in the last 3 years ) are required to have the ability to burn any of the fuels. The price of Alchol was about 1.25 rials litre or .42 cents per litre. All the alchol down there is produced from sugar. Lots of sugar cane down there.
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if your driving a car that runs on alcohol and your in a wreck, is that a "alcohol related accident"?
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That's interesting Milo. There are a variety of crops, like sugarcane, that do a lot better than grain at producing ethanol. Grain produces a relatively low yield for the effort, but can get some increased efficiency if the waste product is additionally used as a livestock feed.
There is currently a 5-billion gallon ethanol mandate as part of the stalled energy bill. Good for major agribusiness, and the farmers seem to think its good for them too (though imports and the development of biomass technologies may bite them in the ass). A real pisser for the oil industry though because ethanol can't be shipped in pipelines (blended or straight) and must be blended at the terminals. It increases botique fuel problems and overall price volatility issues as well. And, at it's core, there's only so much ethanol you can produce compared to US gasoline demand. US grain ethanol is more expensive and we, as taxpayers, take care of that.
You can get overseas ethanol cheaper and undercut the subsidy, but tariff measures are apparently being promoted to protect that subsidy for grain. All in all, a pander to farmers and profits for ADM, in the US at least.
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
T US grain ethanol is more expensive
Charon
So what your saying is a bunch of unemployed rednecks can afford to build a still and produce alcohol cheaply and multibillion dollar corporations cant? LOL
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Originally posted by Charon
That's why there's a subsidy of 54 cents per gallon of ethanol that comes out of our highway funds to make it economically competitive with gasoline.
Charon
In a Free Market isn't the environment considered a liability?
How does the play in the grand picture?
Just asking...
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Turkey/bio waste oil seems the most economical and practical. It will run on current technology. Once introduced will drop the price of standard oil, thus reducing the costs and help the economy thus solving all of our problems. Except for pollution but the engines are getting better. Seems more practical to evolve unless something revolutionary comes along like nuclear powered cars.
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So what your saying is a bunch of unemployed rednecks can afford to build a still and produce alcohol cheaply and multibillion dollar corporations cant? LOL
It's cheap at human consumption/get a buzz levels. But you're not going to fill your tank with Jack Daniels :) Even without the taxes it's going to cost you more.
n a Free Market isn't the environment considered a liability?
Ethanol has been sold to the public as a "clean" fuel for many years. But, it's a wash, actually. Even ADM etc. have moved away from that and into the "reduce foreign oil" argument. This isn’t much better factually, but it’s easier to sell since a variety of recent science has challenged the clean air position.
Ethanol helps with CO emissions in "winter" gasoline formulation in certain problem areas. It is actually worse in summertime (NOx) reduction applications because it increases vapor volatility leading to more fume leakage into the environment. Oxygenates in general are not required useful with cars possessing oxygen sensors (which most now do). The oil industry could develop similar formulations without using ethanol, but that is mandated for political/agribusiness reasons.
Charon
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Turkey/bio waste oil seems the most economical and practical. It will run on current technology. Once introduced will drop the price of standard oil, thus reducing the costs and help the economy thus solving all of our problems. Except for pollution but the engines are getting better. Seems more practical to evolve unless something revolutionary comes along like nuclear powered cars.
That is a very interesting technology. There are some pretty optimistic maximum production goals, but it seems (so far) to be generally on the level.
Charon
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I think you are all missing the point. One day we will all be running our cars on something renewable. The diesel engine is the future. It can run on anything within reason. Eventually every engine will be diesel unless they find a way to make electric engine more efficient.
BUT, don't get too excited even if all engines were diesel and run on cheap renewable fuel. It would NOT solve the oil dependancy problem.
Here's a quote which sums it up perfectly:
There are more than 4,000 different petrochemical products, but those which are considered as basic products include ethylene, propylene, butadiene, benzene, ammonia and methanol. The main groups of petrochemical end-products are plastics, synthetic fibres, synthetic rubbers, detergents and chemical fertilisers.
Considering the vast number of products that are derived from it, crude oil is a very versatile substance. Life as we know it today would be extremely difficult without crude oil and its by-products.
(Source: OPEC) The italics are mine
Life as we know it ends without oil. The Greens might like us to ride around on bicycles but without oil we won't even have the bicycles. At the moment there is simply no replacement for petrochemicals on the horizon.
Oil is that important. It's incredible how many otherwise intelligent people are simple unaware of just how dependant we are on oil. Our civilisation depends on it entirely.
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OPEC is wrong. most of the things made from oil, replaced something different for the same job. and about all the things it didn't replace, but made something entirely new, we don't need.
In the entire history of humans through the milleniums, how long has OPEC been around?
how long have humans been dependant on fossil crude oil?
OPEC just wants you to be dependant on them.
The intelligent people are very aware of the dependance, and know of alternatives, to fossil crude oil.