Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zanth on October 20, 2004, 09:27:24 AM
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Something odd has happened. Remember when we had just plain ol' ordinary bombers and no formations? What was it that they were trying to fix, anyone remember?
Now instead we have kamikassi low level bombers, in formation with 3x the destructive and defensive power on 500' dive bombing or kentucky windage level runs from external view. Heck bomber formations even up from capped fields as defensive fighters.
For me, the old way was better, and the new way has in fact degenerated into somethign a lot worse. Maybe memories are kind, but I think a whole lot more "normal" bombing was going before formations too.
I was thinking this morning as I was getting ready for work how funny how the whole bomber thing thing has come full circle. There is an old saying, " The more things change the more they remain the same." Just an observation.
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I don't like kamikassi low level bombing tactics by 4-engined heavy bombers. I'm thinking to improve this status now.
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the old way, 1 b17 could come in at 20k and presision bomb out every strat at a field. i remember doing it, and watching others do it. just head into the base from where ever, and move across picking out targets, circle back and get the ones you missed.
IIRC there are like 20 250lb bombs in a b17, 1 bomb each strat, killed a base.
FH also were picked off easily by lancs.
the calibration was put in to stop that pinpoint damage, and to formations were added because the spread of the bombs would be more "historical" IIRC also.
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Formations also provide "historical accuracy" to preserve the numbers balance between fighters and bombers.
Maybe an extreme simplification, but:
Most people in AH fly fighters, not a problem, notice the "Aces" part. It's a game, so people can fly what they want.
But, there is a historical aspect to the game, and in WWII the allies were focused on bombing the crap out of Germany and Japan. B-24s and B-17s were hitting Germany before they even had proper fighter escort. P-47s and P-51s just showed up to support bomber formations.
Might be frustrating to have low level buffs--but I just consider them targets. Very easy to get a 110 up to 5000 ft and then BnZ the buffs to shreds.
righty
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Yeah that's what I am getting at. It is just the same now, you just don't have to spend a lot of time climbing or bothering with any bombsight at all. (In fact for a good number of folks they may as well removed the bombsight all together).
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Couldnt it be made so that the AI trys to avoid to crash?
If they are pulled into a dive they will try to recover that dive before they smack the ground.
Tex
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Originally posted by XrightyX
Might be frustrating to have low level buffs--but I just consider them targets. Very easy to get a 110 up to 5000 ft and then BnZ the buffs to shreds.
righty
Righty,
You've been gone for a few months. Here's the problem:
2xLancaster formations fly NOE to your base. No one knows they are coming. They suddenly arrive and either dive bomb in or level bomb from the F-3 view. In one pass they can take out all the FHs and VH. Now you can't up that 110 to stop them, and you weren't up before because they didn't show on DAR as approaching. On their second pass if they are good they can take down 50% of the town with their remaining bombs.
It's the most efficient way to kill a base now. In fact a single player can shut down a small field with one pass of Lancasters on the FHs.
It's pathetic to watch dive bombing Lancasters and B-17s.
There are still ongoing problems with buff damage transferring from a damaged plane to the other planes when the damaged plane blows up. Another reason not to fly buff formations at 20+K.
I wish HTC would dump the buff formations and go back to the old laser site. That would end this non sense and we could go back to having fights with buffs at 20k+. The fields are larger now with more strat targets so the laser sight may not be as much of an issue.
Plus the fuel damage model has been changed. A buff can't stop flights out of a field by trashing the fuel depots. Even if you take out all the fuel depots, it has little effect on fuel availability at the field now.
And the 20K+ bombers show on the DAR bar from way out. If you are watching the DAR bars, you can see them up 2 sectors back from the front lines and moving towards a field.
I miss the historical 20K fights between buffs and fighters and escorts. I'd like to see them back again.
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I like bombsight calibration thing and Id like to keep it. But I also see our problem.
How about 10-15 perks for formations? A Single bomber would be free.
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How about this for an "easy" compromise:
If you're below 12K in the MA you only can control the weaponry on plane you're in within the formation. So when you jump to a gunner, you get your plane shooting back and no others. When you bomb, you can drop your planes bombs and no others.
So kamikaze bombers will still get 3 lives, but they won't be ack platforms and they will die a lot easier down low without the defensive firepower - and with needing multiple passes to drop ord. You'll probably get people more interested in hunting low level bombers when you remove the 3X defensive gunnery.
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DoKGonZo,
That would matter for the bombs, but not the guns. The guns on the drones might as well not be there as it stands now. The guns from the bombers converge at 500 yards, and given the distance apart the drones are if you are even 50 yards closer or further away the drone's guns will just be empting lead into the sky.
If I could only fire my bomber's guns and save the ammo on the drones for when I switched aircraft, I'd use it 100% of the time.
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OK ... I'm just trying to find something that can be done quickly.
Given the way bombers are used now in the MA, there is no need whatsoever for formations. Maybe 1 bomber sortie in 5 (at best) bothers to climb over 5K, and then as often as not they come in to vultch in formations after they drop.
Were it me, I'd turn off formations for a campaign and let the chips fall where they may. Then lets have the real bomber advocates (who actually use the planes the right way) help figure a way to make formations work for them without being exploited. And I don't mean the knee-jerk "you wanna take away all strat" reactions - cuz there is no strat now - there is precious little true formation bombing - so lets be real.
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Disable the ability to drop bombs in F3 mode.
Make the laser sight available for single bombers.
Impose realisic G limits on the bombers. Especially when loaded.
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I see the dilemma, and I've been trying to think of a good compromise, but I just can't. :confused:
There have always been a lot of unrealistic behaviors in the MAI guess the best place to get mission oriented play is in Squad Ops on Fridays and Sundays. Some people might find it boring, but heck, that's how it was: Fly 6 hours, drop bombs when your leader did, fly home. If you were a fighter--stay with the bombers, stay with the bombers, stay with the bombers. No dropping down to furball.
If I could ask for one change that would encourage high buff missions, it would be to place more emphasis/reward on bombing factories. If I remember my history correctly, that was the primary mission of the 8th Air Force (?).
But low-level (almost-) suicide missions weren't unheard of either. There was some famous raid by B-24s on a refinary Hungary or Yugoslavia or something that came in at 500 ft.
Anyway, if HT provides a fix to this "problem", there will just be another innovation in tactics that will work around it--it used to be that 2 Tiffy's could shut down a big airfield, now no fuel porking is really allowed. Art(law)'s missions could kill a small field with only 4 ponies, but now the towns are bigger so you need more people.
I see it just as humans over coming adversity at its best! :)
righty
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88mm/5inch Manned ack tower would help curtail this maybe
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I have one suggestion for dive bombing heavies. if the ROD (Rate of Decent) is greater than 200 feet per minute then the bombs will not drop from the bay.
and I like the idea that no bombs can be dropped from the F3 view.
DarkHawk Bomber Pilot
DHawk Game ID
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No bomb s in F3 might fix some of it. I would rather they just looked at ways to restore some of the earlier conventional bombing fun.
I think greatly increasing field AAA strenth ( and position batteries farther out around the field) would be another one way. In war the AA was much more effective - Not the 88's but the real tracer shooting AA. The currently setting is really kind of a joke. (Stronger AA might have fixed the earlier fuel porking too) I am not sure but I think that is why they invented bombers in the first place?
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Originally posted by DarkHawk
I have one suggestion for dive bombing heavies. if the ROD (Rate of Decent) is greater than 200 feet per minute then the bombs will not drop from the bay.
and I like the idea that no bombs can be dropped from the F3 view.
DarkHawk Bomber Pilot
DHawk Game ID
they still can go for dive bombing from the cockpit.
but rate of decent is brilliant. :aok
let the bombs explode in the bombs bay !!
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In days of old, Bombers could drop with the laser sight and pinpoint drop targets, climbing to High Alt pretty much gauranteed you wouldnt be harrased much by fighters.
In the days of change, Bombers got a new bomb site that increased bomb drift. Many found it difficult to use. The formation option was added as well. Also around that time the ME163 was added near HQs, The new Perk Modifier gave 262s at cheap prices often. Hight Alt was no longer safe, even escorts couldnt help much against rockets and Jets.
Today most find it easier to drop from low alt and do a rough calibration or skip it all togehter and eye ball it. It seems you have about the same chance of surviving at low alt as High and you need not take the time to climb.
The answer IMHO, raise the perks on rockets and Jets, modify the bombsight to somewhere between the old and new. Keep the bomb drift and formations to encourage carpet bombing. Perhaps we would see a return of bombers at altitude and yet not be plaged by the lone guy dropping an entire field.
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Originally posted by 101Pony
they still can go for dive bombing from the cockpit.
but rate of decent is brilliant. :aok
let the bombs explode in the bombs bay !!
I was kind of on purpose not mentioning that, but yeah they can do it pretty well.
Some bombers like B26 and 234 (the art is missing a bomb aiming point) and Ju88 were dive bombers too though. That is why I was thinking more lately of increased field defense - I don't know just an idea - might through force of evolution encourage more real level bombing.
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no bombing from F3 view
REALISTIC G LIMITS ON BOMBERS ESPECIALLY WITH A LOAD
give the laser sight to single bombers.
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Originally posted by Pongo
no bombing from F3 view
REALISTIC G LIMITS ON BOMBERS ESPECIALLY WITH A LOAD
give the laser sight to single bombers.
Replace "give the laser sight to single bombers" with "realistic bomb bay physical drop limitations" and I'dd agree 100%.
Also no bombing from the pilot's position unless it is a torpedo on the Ki-67. The Ju88A-4 would be exempt from the pilot position limitation.
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Originally posted by DarkHawk
I have one suggestion for dive bombing heavies. if the ROD (Rate of Decent) is greater than 200 feet per minute then the bombs will not drop from the bay.
and I like the idea that no bombs can be dropped from the F3 view.
DarkHawk Bomber Pilot
DHawk Game ID
Brilliant! (in the Guiness commercial voice) :D
both excellent ideas that would solve a big part of the problem.
Bazi
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Bombers are easy targets at any altitude. It just depends on whether you have alt and E to make use of. I guarantee you fly up the six of some buffs you will more than likely go down. I think this is very realistic and should not be changed. Buffs should have lots of guns and be able to kill you, but only if you dont use advantages of speed and manueverability to kill them. Low level bombers are not really an issue. Its dive bombing..simple fix would be a dive angle limiter. Bombs wont drop if above so many degrees...
I have personally ruined many a base in low level bombers while "defenders" are all operating directly over the base and no one is even trying to intercept incoming buffs until they get within about 30 secs of the base. I dont agree with the base setup basically. Things should be spread around. All 3 fighter hangers should not be in a row on small fields for example.
Watch for base flashing. Good sign a NOE raid is IB. Have had many a good time when I saw a base flash and nothing on dar and just upped something with some cannon to ruin their day.
anyway just my thoughts
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Give us the precision bomb sight and formations, and I can almost guarantee you will hear cries/whines of "no fighter hangers" a lot more. With a pair of B17s with the precision sight at 15-20k, it was nothing to close a small field.
It's not that tough with a single formation and calibration now, it's just most people are looking for the quick, immediate gratification of a low alt run. Some people still bomb from altitude as if they still have the precision sight anyway. You can see when they drop in three bomb sticks. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't... that's the fun/frustation of calibrating. I increased the number in my salvo just to handle the spread.
Take away formations, you lose a lot of the pucker factor when attacking buffs. When flying a formation, I honestly don't mind being attacked by a decent pilot who uses slashing attacks from all angles. On the same lines, I LOVE the guy who flys up my six all by himself as I watch the distance countdown. :D
I've said it before... bomb drop should be from a level platform (high or low) unless the plane was designed for dive bombing. If you come in low, you should encounter a defensive perimeter which would basically shred a slow moving formation BUT the same defense would have trouble against faster moving craft. These defenses would basically have to be cleared or avoided to allow for a low alt bomber attack. Even if the ack is tuned down to not do a lot of damage, it would alert you of the low alt raid a little sooner.
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I've found some interesting material on the Navy using PB4Y's (a variant of the Liberator) in low level attacks. These birds flew alone in the Pacific.
Here are a couple of the sites if anyone is interested:
http://vpb_102.tripod.com/information/vpb102_action_report-2.html?
http://alanc.carey.freeservers.com/custom.html
Both refer to low level bombing. Apparently the tactic was actually used and by individual aircraft at that.
In relation to AH, I would say that if a person ups a formation, they have to use the bombardier position to drop, which would require calibration. If in single ship formation, they can drop from the pilot's seat and eyeball it in. If you want to take away the ability to drop from the F3 mode, that's fine. But I think you will find that people will adapt pretty quickly and be able to hit their target at will.
Just my .02's.
Glove
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Solution: Perk the extra two bombers that make the formation - bound to see alot less.
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Originally posted by Gloves
Here are a couple of the sites if anyone is interested:
http://vpb_102.tripod.com/information/vpb102_action_report-2.html?
Forget the low alt bombing stuff... I want the Air-to-Air phosphorus bombs the Japanese were using on the PBYs! :eek:
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LOL LETs make everyone play my way.
Guys complained fields to far apart for fighters but want bombers to spend 1hr to get to alt.
Guys complain cv ack needs to be killable, Now 110's can sink cv's
Guys whined about HQ raids so now have hq is dumb because only time its hit is when teams r loopsided and 1 team about to be reset. (163's to cheap)
Only IDEA I like is Cooley's idea of 5" manned guns. This will not be accepted because of those of you get kills mostly vulching would hate it. 2 5" guns at a base and 2 at a town would stop lowlevel bombruns and guys who go to base, kill ack and just vulch with no intensuions of taking said base. Gvs couldn't take a town untill 5" dead so no more flaks runnng into town with no fear when numbers can't support big map ( alot will up gv and soon as someone ups to defend leave to next undefended base)
This could be done real fast i think just make existing 88's manable or add 5's
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Two mannable 5" guns on each field would end the low level buff attacks. It would make the initial JABO strike a must to take them out. And the jabos better be darn careful too.
With the hills and trees we have now, Panzers could probably get close enough to take them out, but they would definately be a threat to the Panzers too.
I like this idea. Maybe HTC could implement on a map we run for a week or two so we could see how it works out.
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I did some " normal" buff runs from alt since my original post. God was brutally boring and with mixed target results to top it off. The calibration thing requires a perfectly steady stick and hand, I don't have either anymore.
Jabo is decidedly easier and more effective, a single 110 can totally strip a field with plenty of ammo left over. A 190 can take out the troops radar at several fields in 15 minutes. I took out radar and troops at a base in a 262 without a single ping. It doesn't surprise me the clouds are lacking bombers like the old days. The time investment/ return equation just equals too big a boredom factor.
Whatever the fix - it is someone else's job to reinvent the wheel again. I used to love bombing way back when, but those days are behind me. For today's nickle it's back to jabo etc for me.
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I agree that the bomb sight is overly complex for arena play. The bomb pattern is a great feature - but to spend that much time getting someplace and then have to deal with that aiming mechanism I'm sure is contributing to the problems.
If we had the old style sight - which took time to settle - combined with the way bombs disperse now I think that'd be perfect for the arena. You still wouldn't have laser-guided bombs - but at least you could aim for hangars and be relatively sure the pattern would center on 'em.
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The big guns on the field is something I would like to see. Well depending on which end of the gun I was on. It would definitley make you look twice at the base. It doesnt sound like it would be to hard to implement. Of course I know nothing about code or anything. HTC my vote is for this. Heck we tried the eny thing... right?
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Zanth,
You don't have to hold the cross hairs steady. You can wander as much as you like, it is only the very start and very end that need to be over the same point.
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
If we had the old style sight - which took time to settle - combined with the way bombs disperse now I think that'd be perfect for the arena. You still wouldn't have laser-guided bombs - but at least you could aim for hangars and be relatively sure the pattern would center on 'em.
That would be the death knell to bombers for me. I'd never hit anything again. The current system allows small, last minute, course corrections. A system that requires me to fly absolutely straight and level for 30 seconds would mean that I'd nearly always miss the target.
Personally I've never had trouble either hitting or calibrating the current system. I don't really see how anybody could have that kind of trouble, barring physical disability.
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Might be the bestest most cool bombsight on the planet, I dunno. Any way it's not getting used very much so it really doesn't matter much.
(Warbirds bombsight still the best compromise set-up I have ever used)
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Originally posted by Karnak
Personally I've never had trouble either hitting or calibrating the current system. I don't really see how anybody could have that kind of trouble, barring physical disability.
i have been playing for over 2.5 years, and know pretty much all there is about this game.
i am no great stick, but if you have a question about how something is set up, how to do it, or whatever i can answer 99% of them.
i can not get bombs to hit within a mile of the target i want, and have read / tried ALL the turtorials posted, and all the "tips"
i have given up on level bombing, only bomber i fly anymore is a JU88 with torps for CV's, those i can sink 90% of the time, unless a good gunner is in a manned 5" then there is no chance.
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I'm convinced we'll never see the majority of buff raids at high alt again unless there are some changes.
1) Return to the early AHI bombsight for single bombers. If you want a formation, you use the newer calibration sight. (Not sure if this coding is really doable. If not, elimnate formations and return to the AHI early sight period.
2) Code 4 engine bombers so they can't release bombs unless +/- 100 ft/min. of level flight. Let all the 2 engine bombers dive bomb if they want.
3) Eliminate bombing from F3.
4) Consider the 5" mannable guns on bases. I'm a little worried this will have unintended and unforseen cosequences, but it's worth an experiment. One of those consequences may be that they can easily kill the high alt buffs attacking the base. Can somone who has more experianxce in them comment if they would wipe out the bombers at 20K? If so, we've defeated the goal of getting 4 engine buffs back where they were designed to be.
I lost two Tigers last night to 500' agl Lancaster Formations GV hunting over our base. It's BS.
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Ugh...
As I said before, all you gotta do is perk the extra bombers. Each single bomber is free. Add on another bomber, make it 20 bomber perks, another make it 40 bomber perks.
This way you wont be seeing much low altitude bull****. Yes you will still see it but they gotta run out of perks some time....
If 40 perks is not enough, jack it up to 50 per plane. Problem solved. Flying with a formation should be a privilege in this game, not a right.
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Just make bombing only possible from the bombadiers position and everything would be solved
no?
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The old bombsight is too easy and too many say the new bombsight is too hard.
How about a bombsight that auto-calibrates but takes 2 minutes of steady level flight to do it. As it calibrated, it would give a percent readout for the bombs striking the target in the crosshairs. The percentage would start at 20% and keep increasing up to 100% (or maybe 98% max so it's not too accurate)
Also, it would be good to have in-air bomb collisions enabled. Dive bombing would be much harder for level bombers, because if diving at <1G, the bombs may actually hit inside the bomb bays before they cleared the airframe.
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Even the new bomb sight is easy...just takes some time to get used to it. Take up maybe 10 flights of 17's in a day and you should have the bombing calibration mastered within a couple days. It's really not that hard, only a matter of "do you know what you are doing". Maintaining steady level flight with a stable speed, opening bomb doors when appropriate, calibrating properly, and then releasing is all you need to do... With the old calibration, you could even use RATO's on your bombing run and still have accurate bombs - now that is NOT ok.
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The Bombsight is easy to do "IF" you are a steady hand and you have decent equipment. And as Mak said, practice till you get the hang of it.
The Problem is if dont have a steady hand, and cant find that sweet spot when pressing and releasing the button, your not going to have much success bombing. Yes I do realise its the begining and ending point but if your eyes are poor and you have the shakes, it isnt going to happen.
The other side is if you have a crappy stick, it has a big effect on it very simular to being unsteady. I can make perfect calibrations on my good CH Gear, but I cant do it with my old cheapy crap.
A Good Comprimise would be this. Replace the moving the cross hairs to find the sweet spot with a simple button that must be held for 2 seconds. Here is an example of what I mean.
First you get up to Alt and your Speed. You would open the clip board map and select your target, just as now. open your doors and make sure your speed has stabized. Now instead of holding the cross hairs, you just hold the calibrate button. Make sure your delay and salvo is correct. Your set to make your drop.
Now if you have a radical change of coase or change your speed or altitude your drop will be screwed up, just like now. Bomb drift and despertion is the same as now as well.
The only thing that changed was way that did one small step.
If possible I would have a checkable box in the flight options, so you could use the current system or the easy calibrate.
This would not effect those with good skills at bombing, But it would make it more fun for those that are having a difficult time with the cross hairs. The Plus, More Fun for Everyone.
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I have one suggestion that has improved my own ability to drop and hit a target.
I check the E6B speed and try to have it stable. Then do the calibration. now keep an eye on the E6B for speed changes.
if the speed increase try to slow down before you get to target and keep speed at the value seen when you completed the calibration. if still a little fast drop early that is less then 3 mph if slow drop a little past the target again less then 3 mph.
I try to keep my speed at 200 mph wiht altitude of 20K plus..
DarkHawk bomber Pilot
DHawk in game
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I agree with Grimm. There is no need to track over a spot on the terrain.... It's pointless. The learning experience shouldnt be can you keep a "steady hand" over a tree on the ground. It SHOULD be: do you know how to properly calibrate in certain conditions...
For you old folks, and less fortunate without adequate equipment, I'm sorry if you are having problems with the steady hand thing lol. My best advice is this: Keep a stable and steady speed when you are 10mi from the bomb run. Get your doors open, fly for another mile or two. Now calibrate. Everything should go great if your speed is stabalized and you calibrated properly.
One thing i have noticed that has helped me is that if my speed fluctated a little, I would compensate that in my F6 or bombardier position. If my speed increased by a few MPH, i would release the bombs early. If the speed decreased, release the bombs a little late. Do not try to recalibrate right before the target or you will be further off than if you tried to estimate.
Hopefully this helps some of you.
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Originally posted by Alpo
Give us the precision bomb sight and formations, and I can almost guarantee you will hear cries/whines of "no fighter hangers" a lot more. With a pair of B17s with the precision sight at 15-20k, it was nothing to close a small field.
More whines than a single player in a Lancaster formation at 500ft taking out all the fighter hangars? More whines than Tanks being hunted by B-17 formations at 500 AGL?
If we get the precision sight back, I would do away with formations.
In another thread it was suggested to put 5" mannable ack guns on the bases. That would also help cure the low level bombers, at least until JABOS took them out. That fits in with your general theme of making the base ack more intense.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Just make bombing only possible from the bombadiers position and everything would be solved
no?
Yep, that's the ticket. It's impossible to calibrate when you're 800 feet off the ground. Maybe drop from bombadier position only AND you must be at least 6,000 feet?
curly
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I agree with Pongo....give the single bomber the old sight and if one opts for a formation, make that the newer sight.
I also agree, make some modifications to dissuade the suicide crowd from grabbing buffs...F3 view, etc
But again, the same old argument of "ruining someone elses fun" will come up. If a bomber hits anything, players will complain. If a bomber shoots a fighter down, they will complain.
I miss the old bomber days, flying with guys like Beefcake on long Ar-234 missions or trying to sneak a buff to an enemy's HQ at 25,000 ft. Back then, people would more than like alt-tab and complain about buff's rather than climb up and intercept you. El Guapo used to "greet" me with his 109 G-10 and some really great fights would break out. I'm 'ok' with the new sight but really would like the old one back. Given all the disadvantages a bomber has, at least knowing the bomb will hit a mark was small comfort for the 50 or so minutes you dedicated to getting somewhere.
Further, I think its interesting so many want to scale back and determine what a bomber can do or have. How about evening the score...how about fighters having gun jams, or overheated guns? It just seems to me everything is anti-bombers.
And if you've had an onslaught of NOE dweebs attack your base, I would agree with that emotion.
But I think what's missed is the role the bombers had.
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Originally posted by Midnight
How about a bombsight that auto-calibrates but takes 2 minutes of steady level flight to do it. As it calibrated, it would give a percent readout for the bombs striking the target in the crosshairs. The percentage would start at 20% and keep increasing up to 100% (or maybe 98% max so it's not too accurate)
I agree, I think the best solution for bombers would be auto calibration when you are flying steady. Changing direction or speed would simply increase the size of the dispersion cone.
This would also reduce laser bombing from high alt problems since a cone gets larger the longer it gets. So 30K bombers are not going to destroy every hangar with just 3 1K bombs.
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Originally posted by Zanth
Might be the bestest most cool bombsight on the planet, I dunno. Any way it's not getting used very much so it really doesn't matter much.
I guess I'd have to humbly disagree. I have ALWAYS used the calibration, even after noe ingress with late "pop up" to drop altitude. It is simply the best way to hit targets, and I could never hit anything by eyeballing it. The people I fly with all use the calibration and do altitude bombing -- whether 2k or 20k.
I know the pork and auger crowd are annoying, but I just doit see it happening that much. Last time I got 3 kills without guns happened at 15k when lancs achieved their goal of killing FH's -- and the guy didnt care about the deaths so he bailed 3x.
And for you guys who think single buffs are a viable option, think about the lines of converging rabid fighters when a single buff is sighted. Its guaranteed death to up a singlet unless the base is deserted, and if tyou make that the standard then nobdy will up buffs. Period.
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I remember bombers at 30K that could drop with pinpoint accuracy and out-dogfight fighters, too.
Suicidal bombers at 500 feet, while annoying, are nowhere near as bad.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Midnight
How about a bombsight that auto-calibrates but takes 2 minutes of steady level flight to do it. As it calibrated, it would give a percent readout for the bombs striking the target in the crosshairs. The percentage would start at 20% and keep increasing up to 100% (or maybe 98% max so it's not too accurate)
Only if the current bombsight remains as a choice.
The system you describe would be very hard to use with a Ki-67, Boston Mk III, Ar234 or other future fast bombers. I would much rather be able to control the calibration myself.
I like the current system.
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Originally posted by JB73
i have been playing for over 2.5 years, and know pretty much all there is about this game.
i am no great stick, but if you have a question about how something is set up, how to do it, or whatever i can answer 99% of them.
i can not get bombs to hit within a mile of the target i want, and have read / tried ALL the turtorials posted, and all the "tips"
i have given up on level bombing, only bomber i fly anymore is a JU88 with torps for CV's, those i can sink 90% of the time, unless a good gunner is in a manned 5" then there is no chance.
Can teach you how in 5 mins just ask have taught 100's how to bomb
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Upping the Ack level (manned 88s, twin Oerlikons, lotsa twin MG38s and flak towers!) at fields and simply introducing real world physics to the bomb bays of level bombers would end the current nuttiness. Having the bombs destroy the airframe of all the planes in the formation a few times would put paid to most of the silliness.
If they still want to act as sitting duck targets and automatic proxy kills after those changes, I say let 'em. Nothings more fun than "mid-air bomber vulching"
- Seagoon
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I believe Ju-88s could bomb from a glide.
I do think the F6 view should be used exclusively to release for all other heavy bombers.
The current bombsite is not difficult. It is already far easier to hit a target than it was in real life.
You have to simply use a little logic and experiment. I'm not going to divulge all the secrets because that would be cheating.
Think of it as a puzzle and consider what factors influence accuracy and what you can do to reduce inaccuracy. Consider the geometry of calibration. You are allowed to think in this game.
It is not dependent on equipment. All the tools are available to you in the game to become a reasonable bombadier.
My only problem with bombing is the bug that causes your bombs to not detonate if you move to a gunner position for defense before they impact.
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I like the current bombing calibration setup - it requires forward planning and skill. This results in a warm fuzzy feeling when your salvo pickles the target and the text buffer fills up with "destroyed" messages along with squawks of delight from the rest of the group.
If its hard because you've got a shaky hand or a shoddy stick, then get a better stick. If you can fly and land a fighter there is no way you shouldn't be able to calibrate.
Top Tip - Hold the calibration for a count of 20. (I use full zoom and pick a defined point on the ground) - make a note of E6B speeds.
Getting it right is bloody rewarding - I don't want that taken away from me with some "easy" mode.
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Originally posted by Darkish
I like the current bombing calibration setup
If its hard because you've got a shaky hand or a shoddy stick, then get a better stick.
Getting it right is bloody rewarding - I don't want that taken away from me with some "easy" mode.
Darkish,
I can tell you read my suggestion thru, Thank you.
My suggestion doesnt take away anything from you. You could still use the sight as it currently is setup. You would still get the rush of excitment for making a sucessful run.
It does make bombing easier for some people. It helps in those cases of poor equipment or an unstead hand. It might encourage more causal bomber pilots to take a bomber flight. It might even help make a change in gameplay. If peopel have better sucess with level bombing, they might shy away from other tatics that are frowned upon.
An Improvement that makes the game more fun for more people would be good for AH, I believe my suggestion allows that possiblitiy.
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Originally posted by Rolex
I'm not going to divulge all the secrets because that would be cheating.
It is not dependent on equipment. All the tools are available to you in the game to become a reasonable bombadier.
My only problem with bombing is the bug that causes your bombs to not detonate if you move to a gunner position for defense before they impact.
I hope your indicating you didnt want to share any of your tips, and not suggesting cheats. you might want to clarify that.
I beg to differ on equipment, I can see a marked difference in accuracy from a good control system to a poor one in my own personal tests. (I wonder if you can calibrate well if fly with a mouse?)
I didnt know about that Bug, I never noticed it, but thats for sharing it.
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Grimm.. in full zoom when calibrating at 16K with a hand that can bearly keep a plane airborne, if done right will allow you to drop near your target.
The biggest factors that throw off calibration are not doing it for long enough and a speed change once calibration is completed.
Calibration can be made easier by pushing the sights forward for 6 seconds before marking your point. It is not required but the generated angle allows for less movement of the stick. Get your cross hairs as steady as possible on a point, then mark it - hold this for 20 seconds, release the mark button then the stick.
Forgive me if this all information you allready know but I've found the biggest calibration mistake is holding it for too short a time, not how steady it has been.
The idea of holding down a button for 2 seconds to accomplish the above although easier by far, detracts from the bombers skill. Why should everybody be good at this. A bit of a reach, but to me it's almost anlagous to getting on someone's six in a fighter, then holding down a button for 2 secs to make them blow up.
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The crosshairs can wander all over the place while you calibrate, don't worry about that. Just make sure that the crosshairs are marking the same terrain feature when you click to start the calibration and when you release at the end. Nothing in between matters at all.
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Perk the formation -> More low level dive bombing. Just with single planes. If it's too hard to hit a target with three bombs using the sight, why would having only one bomb encourage people to fly high?
Ban dive bombing Heavies -> I assume this doesn't apply to B26, ju88's and of course a20's. So you just get dive bombing heavies with only a couple less bombs.
Ban bombers -> this is the only solution. Maybe we could have an AI that would take off, climb to 20k, bomb a preselected target, and land. Each player could launch one AI formation at a time, then fly fighters to escort, or try to knock the enemy bombers down.
Problem is many of us like to fly bombers.
--Peregrine
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Grimm: Of course i mean't that it would be like giving the answers to a quiz. :)
Karnak just posted an answer to a common misconception.
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Ok, I'm no expert, but I nearly always hit the target.
Here are my tips:
1) Do a fake calibration once you are autoclimbing to your chosen altitude. The only goal of this is to get the target's altitude in the computer, so don't worry about marking anything with the crosshairs. This will save a little bit of time later on when you are in enemy territory.
2) Always approach the target directly from the North, East, South or West, e.g. 0°, 90°, 180° or 270°. This allows you to use the edge of the clipboard or make sure you're on target. To use the edge of the clipboard zoom in on the map until you plane icon and the target icon are at opposite sides of the map. If you plan on attacking from the East or West move the map up or down until half the target icon is hidden. The edge of the clipboard is the line you must fly on your approach. If you are going to attack from the North or the South use the side of the clipboard in the same manner.
3) Once you have reached your chosen altitude you should be one and a half sectors from the target. This gives your bomber time to settle it's speed. Use the E6B computer to monitor your speed. Once your acceleration slows to 1mph gained every 10 or 15 seconds, open your bomb bay doors. They cause drag and your calibration speed must take that into account. Your bomb bay doors will remain open from this point until after you drop your bombs.
4) Once the E6B airspeed stops changing and you have verified that you are on the correct heading using the clipboard edge, go to the bombardier's position to calibrate the bombsight.
5) In step 1 you set the target's altitude, now it is time to get the calibration done. At the bombsight zoom all the way in. Initiate the calibration routine. Set the crosshair on a distinctive terrain feature or mark. Press the key to begin marking and hold the key down. While calibrating don't worry if you have trouble holding the crosshair over the terrain feature being used as a marker. Hold the key for marking for 15 to 20 seconds and make sure that the crosshairs are on the same terrain feature as it was at the start of the marking process, then relase the key. You should now be calibrated.
6) Looking forward from the bombardier's position you should be able to see the target, make any course adjustments you need to make so that you will pass directly over the target, or the part of the target you want to hit. If the course corrections are more than 5° you must calibrate again. Generally if I need to do a last second calibration I only hold the crosshairs for 5 seconds or so as there is not much time before the bombs must be released at this point.
Those tips should allow you to hit your target.
The delay and salvo numbers you should use depend on what your goals are and what you speed is. For example, if I am hitting a city with Ki-67s at 22,000ft I will take the eight 100kg bombs as the payload and set my salvo to 4 or 8 depending on which angle I am hitting the city from, no sense in bombing the heck out of the lake and park. With the speed of the Ki-67 and only having eight bombs to drop I want to minimize overkill so I set the delay to .45. If I were flying a bomber with 1,000lbers and wanted to kill FHs, or similarly sized targets, I would set the salvo to 1 and the delay to .05. I would not try to pinpoint kill FH sized targets from much about 12,000ft. Other combinations you'll have to puzzle out on your own.
Good luck.
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Great Post Karnak!
Rolex, Thats what I figured, but I didnt want anyone to misunderstand, the word Cheat kinda puts up a red flag.
Darkish Great Post as well!
Its refreshing to actual be able to talk about Idea without things getting out of hand. Thanks :)
You guys pretty much do the calibration the same way I do. I can normaly hit my target at will. I might have picked up a new idea or two to work in as well. Ill share one as too.
You can use the Auto Speed - autopilot to hold your forward speed constant, adjust your throttle to hold your alt. Iv had good sucess with that.
Now I do appreciate the resistance and the fact that you are all proud of your skills as a bombadier. None of you want to see the abilities you have honed, cheapend by changes to the system.
Think about this, Since I suggest all things stay the same, except for the crosshair calibration. Would being good at hold the cross hairs on mark, make you a great bombadier? Of Course NOT.
The things that really make someone good at level bombing come from all those other tips. its the ability to plan your route, be prepared before your in enemy teritory, hold your speed and alt. Its just about everything besides the crosshair part that makes the difference. Thats why your good at it. The crosshair part isnt really that big a deal.
So, Think about it, would having an option to use the crosshair alignment part of the calibration or to use a button that after a short time does that alignment for you, be that big a change?
I put to you its all that other stuff that makes your skills shine.
But, Maybe, just maybe, It would help out some other pilots. It might encourage others to climb in a heavy for a decent high alt drop.
If implimented, Id still want to do the crosshairs, its cool. But I am trying to think what might be better for everyone overall. I want more folks having fun and I want AH to do better. Thats my only motivation here.
Maybe it would be better to ask this of guys that bomb alot, Could you live with my suggestion if implemented??
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A very good synposis, Karnak.
Thye real key is planning. You have to plan for the a/c speed to be settled and the proper heading, plus planning your egress or turn for a second pass.
I use rpm instead of throttle to set power in bombers and always zoom in on the target using the forward view from the bombsite to tweak my course before doing a calibration. You can see a target from almost half a sector out that way.
You must push the bombsite straight forward using forward joystick as far as possible but still maintain a clear graphic view of a terrain feature for marking a calibration point. Calibration is measuring ground speed. The further forward you calibrate, the less margin of error. Consider the triangle formed from the a/c, the spot directly below the a/c and the calibration point on the terrain.
You also must zoom in on the map to pinpoint the altitude with the mouse after setting calibration point.
I'm of the opinion that calibration as it is now is not difficult. Planning and maximizing a successful high alt mission with more than one set of bombers is one of the thinking parts still left in the game.
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The initial version of the calibration routine that worked with a 6 second calibration I could do fine, I could still hit acks with single 250s from a b26. When they changed it to 15 seconds. I really couldnt maintain the crosshairs anyway near that long. Since I have found out the only the begining and end of the mark matter thing I can hit hangers from 15k easy anyway.
Karnaks write up is excellent. I dont bother with hitting the target at right angles. I look at the notepad map of the target and pick my line. Get as close as possible to that line while level and with the doors open. Use my nose gun at extreme zoom to view the target and my rudders to do an exact line up on the target. I think do a 15 second calibration.
Thats the only calibration I do.
I find I can make slight corrections durring the drop to hit targets off my line. Not near as extreme as I could in the laser sight days but still I can take down all 7 FHs in two passes vs a large field.
Now if I could only use the defensive guns with any accuracy.