Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: moot on October 21, 2004, 07:37:08 AM
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Didn't want to clutter it, http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/werkn.htm lists it as a 190G-3.
Anyone have anymore details worth posting in Shane's thread?
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Yeah I know sometimes earl's logbook is a little on the spare side. every now and then he'll go into a little more description.
If anyone has some questions they'd like me to pass along to earl, put 'em here. I can't promise he'll answer them (all), but he's usually responsive.
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It looks like the unit code is DN but I can't find any listing for it. SKG 10 used the code KM so would not say it was a 'delivery code'. It is from the 11 Staffel.
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IIRC one of Jeffrey Ethell's colour photo books contain some pictures of these captured LW planes. Probably in Sicily, several Bf 109s, Fw 190s, twins etc.
gripen
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Might as well move the image here on the off chance folks can figure out more about the specific 190.
Thanks for the start too btw. Didn't know it was a 190G
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1096828038_190tail.jpg)
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What's the source for the photo?
Do you know the location?
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Originally posted by Wotan
What's the source for the photo?
Do you know the location?
The source of the photo is Earl Miller, the 350th FG pilot who flew 39s and 47s with them from North Africa into Italy with stops in Corsica and Sicily.
He's not positive but more then likely Corsica or Sicily.
Dan/Slack
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OK If you like I will post it on another forum. I assumed it was from a private collection and didn't want to cross post with out permission.
Let me know..
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Feel free Wotan. Since the serial was readable, I figured someone might know how to track it's history.
Anything to add to the cause :)
Thanks
Dan/Slack
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I made a post on the LEMB forums
Here's a link
http://p069.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm34.showMessage?topicID=79.topic
I also linked back to this thread.
I will post on the AWF and AAW forums as well...
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Originally posted by Wotan
I made a post on the LEMB forums
Here's a link
http://p069.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm34.showMessage?topicID=79.topic
I also linked back to this thread.
I will post on the AWF and AAW forums as well...
Funny, I was just there earlier today looking at the downed and captured Spits.
I posted some photos of Me262 Yellow 17 there that I have in my collection in the Captured 262s at Fassberg thread a while back as well.
A most imformative site :)
Dan/Slack
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The FW-190A5/U13 was blanket redesignated as the FW-190G3. SKG 10 was testing several these A/C during the Tunisia campaign. They gave them horrible reviews and many were reconverted to FW-190A5 standards.
I have a partial listing of all captured FW-190's. Unfortunately this Werknummer is not on it.
I will see if I can dig anything up to help out.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
The FW-190A5/U13 was blanket redesignated as the FW-190G3. SKG 10 was testing several these A/C during the Tunisia campaign. They gave them horrible reviews and many were reconverted to FW-190A5 standards.
I have a partial listing of all captured FW-190's. Unfortunately this Werknummer is not on it.
I will see if I can dig anything up to help out.
Crumpp
Fw190A5/U13 was a combo of /U2 and /U8. There was 3 prototype a/c only, W.Nr 817(V43), 855(V44) and 1083(V42).
It was the /U8 that Rott and Hein did not like. (pg 131,132) The G-3 was built from July to Aug 1943 and the comment by Rott was made when his unit was still in NA.
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SKG 10 was testing several these A/C during the Tunisia campaign. They gave them horrible reviews and many were reconverted to FW-190A5 standards.
The FW-190A5/U8 was later redesignated the FW-190G2.
AFAIK, only difference is the FW-190A5/U13 (FW-190G3) has the PKS11 autopilot.
Several FW-190A5/U8's and FW-190A5/U13's were converted for night operations. The FW-190A5/U13's did not get converted until 1944.
Crumpp
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(http://home.wanadoo.nl/j.vd.heuvel/Fw190-12y.jpg)
(http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/colour/fw190%20colour%20DN+FV.jpg)
Check the LEMB thread Guppy
http://p069.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm34.showMessage?topicID=79.topic
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Originally posted by Crumpp
The FW-190A5/U8 was later redesignated the FW-190G2.
AFAIK, only difference is the FW-190A5/U13 (FW-190G3) has the PKS11 autopilot.
Several FW-190A5/U8's and FW-190A5/U13's were converted for night operations. The FW-190A5/U13's did not get converted until 1944.
Crumpp
Explain how SKG10 could be testing /U13 a/c if they were not converted (???) to that configuration until 1944. SKG10 was long gone from NA by that time.
quote:The FW-190A5/U13 was blanket redesignated as the FW-190G3. SKG 10 was testing several these A/C (/U13???) during the Tunisia campaign.
The /U2 configurartion was not seen before Oct 1943. The /U13 was a combo of /U2 and /U8 for use during low light missions.
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I'm no expert as to the application of factory codes on new aircraft but I agree that it does appear strange that the code is applied over the white theatre band - perhaps it was painted in this manner for ferrying? The other Fw190 coded DN+FP is also painted in this manner...
Peter Evans is correct. It was ferried to SKG10 for combat trial evaluations. The type did well in SKG 10's Gruppen on the Kanalfront. It was not well suited for the shorter range ground attack missions that Tunisia Gruppe required.
Crumpp
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Fw190A5/U13 was a combo of /U2 and /U8.
This is were you are confused Milo. The FW-190A5/U13 was a long range ground attack varient with the PKS11 autopilot that became the FW-190G3.
The FW-190A5/U8 was the long range ground attack varient that became the FW-190G2. It was not fitted with any autopilot, AFAIK.
Both varients had some of the production run fitted to FW-190A5/U2 nachtjager standards by adding exhaust flame dampeners, glare shields, and special landing lights.
There were no FW-190A5/U13 was fitted to FW-190A5/U2 standards until 1944.
Explain how SKG10 could be testing /U13 a/c if they were not converted (???) to that configuration until 1944.
You are confusing the varients Milo. It is easy to do.
Crumpp
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Wow! You gents are good :)
I could probably pull it off with RAF or USAAF stuff, but not the Luftwaffe. I very much appreciate the help gents.
Interesting that it was 'captured' by the 79th FG as these are 350th FG guys in my photo. I don't believe they were based together.
Dan/Slack
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Jan's image was captioned
Montecorvino, Italy, September 1943. This ship was flown a few days later and nearly shot down by a gang of A-36s returning from a mission.
A quick look at a map of Italy shows
Montecorvino Pugliano
Montecorvino Rovella
Both in the Province of Salerno (main land Italy).
There is also a nice colour photo of DP+FV in "Focke-Wulf Fw190, The Birth of the Butcher Bird 1939-43" with the caption:
"This Fw190 is an A5/U8 which probably belonged to SKG10 and was captured after the units retreat from Tunisia. It was captured in 1943 at Gerbini, Sicily by the 85th Fighter Squadron, 79th Fighter Group USAAF and was later tested by the US Navy Tactical Test Division"
SKG 10 was stationed in Gerbini, Sicily around this time frame.
What's interesting is I wonder if this is the 190G that the USN then 'modified' back to an A-5 and tested?. The very same tests that they based the AH 190A-5 FM on? Anyone have the Navy documents and can check the W.Nr.?
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Originally posted by Wotan
What's interesting is I wonder if this is the 190G that the USN then 'modified' back to an A-5 and tested?. The very same tests that they based the AH 190A-5 FM on? Anyone have the Navy documents and can check the W.Nr.?
It's a different Fw, W.nr. 160057
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index1.html
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1098566052_page6.jpg)
It's not that one, although it is the same variant FW-190.
I imagine it is one of two that were captured, repainted by the squadrons, and lost to history. I have color photos of two other FW-190G's that became souvenir's.
Crumpp
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Scanned from the 79th FG History "A Hostile Sky" by Don Woerpel
Looks like they had two working 190s for a short time.
It also makes me wonder if the first image I posted is a different bird and not connected to the 79th like these two since the photo comes from a 350th FG pilot.
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1098566501_79th190s.jpg)
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Just to add to the confusion. Came across that color photo of DN-FV credited to a 31st FG Spitfire/Mustang pilot named William Skinner.
It appears that bird made the rounds :)
Dan/Slack
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Does it have the date Guppy?
Crumpp
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Caption says at Montecervino Airfield, near Salerno, Italy in 1943
Dan/Slack
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(http://home.wanadoo.nl/j.vd.heuvel/Fw190-12y.jpg)
Jan posted this image from his collection of photos saying it was captioned:
Montecorvino, Italy, September 1943. This ship was flown a few days later and nearly shot down by a gang of A-36s returning from a mission.
Comparing the image Guppy posted its an exact match. Look at the ground clutter, the open hatch and the hills in the background.
Montecorvino is in the Province of Salerno.
Does Earl recall being in Salerno?
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Hi,
Many FW 190 G-3s were captured in Italy in September 1943, almost all of which belonged to III./S.K.G. 10.
FW 190 G-3 W.Nr 160 022 DN + FV was from 10./S.K.G. 10. It was recorded as being destroyed by German troops on 9 September at Montecorvino in Italy (doesn't mean it was actually destroyed, the Germans didn't always properly destroy aircraft before they withdrew from an airfield!).
FW 190 G-3 W.Nr 160 022 was assigned to 10./S.K.G. 10 on 2 September 1943. On that day it had been sent from Vicenza to III./S.K.G. 10, along with three other G-3s.
Hope that helps,
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Posted on the LEMB thread I linked above...
FYI Andrew Arthy (aka Bookie) is co-author of:
Focke-Wulf Fw 190 in North Africa
Publisher: Air War Classics – An Imprint of Ian Allan Publishing
ISBN: 1-903223-45-8
Here's a link to his website:
http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/Index.html
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Thanks much Wotan
Dan/Slack
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I don't know what was the actual reason, but the LW left large number of intact aircraft to the airfields in Sicily. I have seen pictures of several Bf 109Gs, Fw 190s, Bf 110s etc. Maybe they had no fuel to evacuate or maybe the front collapsed so fast.
gripen
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Caption says at Montecervino Airfield, near Salerno, Italy in 1943
Nothing more exact for the "claim" by the mustangs?
Crumpp
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Originally posted by gripen
I don't know what was the actual reason, but the LW left large number of intact aircraft to the airfields in Sicily. I have seen pictures of several Bf 109Gs, Fw 190s, Bf 110s etc. Maybe they had no fuel to evacuate or maybe the front collapsed so fast.
gripen
I've often wondered about that. It seems like every 12th AF fighter group had at least one German fighter for each of their squadrons. I've seen photos of the ones the 33rd FG had. They had 109s for each Squadron and at least one 190. The 57th Had 109s. The 79th had the 190s and 109s and he 350th had 109s to name a few. And certainly the RAF guys found more then their share of 109s.
Dan/Slack
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I don't believe they were left due to lack of fuel. In 1943 the Luftwaffe as not feeling the big aviation fuel crunch they would experience later, AFAIK.
More likely they were left due to lack of pilots and resources to fly them out.
Any retreat, just like any military action, takes planning. The logistical resources simply were not put at the units defending Sicily disposal to conduct a coordinated withdrawal.
The Reich issued one of it's famous "Fuehrer Orders" and forbid any planned retreat off the Island of Sicily. So units defended until the end even thought the military situation dictated they should have retreated long ago. At least that was the party line.
Now JG53, as did most of the units including Heer, did attempt an organized withdrawal to the Italian mainland. I have several accounts of Ju 52 transports flying back to Sicily loaded with pilots to ferry aircraft back to Italy. These operations were local in nature and conducted with theater only assets when available.
Just like Tunisia, the axis leadership created a stupid waste of men and materials by attempting to hold an untenable position rather than fall back to better defensive positions. Kesselring was able to stop the Allies in Italy for the duration of the war with very little resources. It's a matter of speculation what might have happenend had the men and materials destroyed in Tunisia and Sicily been at his disposal.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
I don't believe they were left due to lack of fuel. In 1943 the Luftwaffe as not feeling the big aviation fuel crunch they would experience later, AFAIK.
More likely they were left due to lack of pilots and resources to fly them out.
Why not fuel or was there a pipeline from the mainland to Sicily? Tha Axis could not deliever enough fuel to NA, so why not to Sicily?
Besides fuel, I would bet it was maintaince issues, like lack of spare parts or the time to fix the a/c.
Oh ya Crumpp, most of the Allied resources where slated for and went to the battles in NW Europe.
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Why not fuel or was there a pipeline from the mainland to Sicily? Tha Axis could not deliever enough fuel to NA, so why not to Sicily?
For the strateagic level:
Show me were there is a fuel crunch of critical proportions? I don't see it.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1098976710_germanavgas.jpg)
Civilian consumption (INCLUDING EXPORTS) slightly goes above production in 1943 but considering the stocks available does nothing to create a critical shortage.
Only in the last few months of the war, when consumption greatly exceeds production is a critical shortage experienced.
For the tactical level:
None of the Luftwaffe units I am familiar with mention a fuel shortage that effects their operations. If you have evidence I would be interested in it.
Crumpp
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
It is not production Crumpp but the supply of fuel where required. :rolleyes:
Ask Rommel about his fuel stocks.
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We are not talking tank fuel are we?
Notice the graph says Aviation Fuel.
Just so you do know. Tanks and airplanes require different fuels.
Your comparison to Rommel's shortages is in no way valid. The ability of a fuel truck to find a unit in the field is a totally different logistical problem from an aircraft getting fuel to it's airfield.
Rommel was correct in his assessment of good strategic military leadership when he said:
"Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics."
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
We are not talking tank fuel are we?
Notice the graph says Aviation Fuel.
Just so you do know. Tanks and airplanes require different fuels.
Crumpp
LOL no kidding.:rofl :rofl Now by different fuels do you mean gasoline/petrol and diesel or the PN? German vehicles used petrol, even their tanks.
As the battles in NA progressed, less and less tankers reached NA ports. They would not only be carrying vehicle fuel but also avgas. Tankers are not one huge container(tank) but are made up of many, many smaller containers(tanks).
Yes we can all tell that you are truly an rookie amateur.
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So far Milo,
Your just throwing out your usual round of insults with no validity. Please provide some evidence that Luftwaffe units experienced a critical shortage of fuel in this timeframe that effected operations.
Crumpp
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And you have been shovelling your usual snotty BS, Crumpp. Your sly insinuations not withstanding.
Now, do you mean the the LW in general or the LW in NA and Sicily?
BTW Crumpp contact the webmaster of this site http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/index.html
Since you are so insistent, he is interested in those Fw190A-5/U13s that served in NA. Notice that he is the co-author of the 190 in Africa book.:eek:
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Rommel was correct in his assessment of good strategic military leadership when he said:
"Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics."
Not sure one can accurately attribute that quote to Rommel - I think probably it goes at least as far back as Clausewitz, probably earlier.
Lord knows, Rommel certainly didn't pay any attention to it.
- oldman
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Lord knows, Rommel certainly didn't pay any attention to it.
LOL, Oldman.
I am sure similar sentiments have been expressed before Rommel without a doubt. It was however one of Rommels quotes and comes from his North Africa experience AFAIK.
Going completely down a side road from the Luftwaffe focus but it is easy to confuse a commanders wants, his directives from above, and the operational realities on the ground. It is not that Rommel did not make mistakes or that he ignored logistics and I would say it is unfair to say he ignored them. By the same standard Patton ignored logistics as did most WWII commanders.
His fuel supply problems where more a matter of getting the fuel from the depot's to the units. Not in getting fuel from the Reich to the Depots.
Getting fuel to tanks which are changing position in the field constantly is a totally different and much more difficult logistical problem.
It is a problem that is still plagues today's military operations even with modern technology.
Crumpp
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As for the FW-190A5/U13:
Here is a USAAF translation of Luftwaffe documentation. I have both the German and US Report.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1098984736_pursuit190.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1098984971_g3report.jpg)
IF the Werknummer Guppy Posted is correct the FW-190 in question is an FW-190A5/U13.
At least according to the Werknummer block listed here:
http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/werkn.htm
Crumpp
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Nonsense Crumpp
Hi Kutscha,
The FW 190 variants that served in North Africa were the FW 190 A-2, A-3, A-4, A-4 Trop, A-5, A-5/U3 Trop, and A-5/U8. To my knowledge the A-5/U13 was not used in North Africa.
In fact, I've seen no documentary evidence of operational use of the FW 190 A-5/U13, but would like to hear from anyone who has.
The book by Morten Jessen and I, The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 in North Africa, includes a brief discussion of the pros and cons of the A-5/U3 and A-5/U8, in Chapter 10. We'll look at this issue more in the sequel, which we are working on at the moment.
Cheers,
Andrew A.
http://p069.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm34.showMessage?topicID=79.topic
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Really?
Not unless the werknummer Guppy listed is wrong or the list on Andrews site is wrong.
Look, It is not my intention to called his work into question. He wrote a fantastic book on FW-190 operations in North Africa IMO and I look forward to his other work.
I will point out that what I posted is referred too as a primary source. The source being used on his for the FW-190 werknummers G-3 blocks is:
[3] M. Griehl & J. Dressel, Focke-Wulf Fw 190/Ta 152 - Jäger, Jagdbomber, Panzerjäger, Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart, 1995
Is a called secondary source. If you bother, Wotan, to do some legwork you will find out that even since 1995 a wealth of information on this stuff has become available to researchers. Griehl and Dressel put out the most factual information available at the time. I have no doubt of that NOR am I claiming it is incorrect.
I will say that I just spent the last few days in an archive that has literally thousands of just FW documents that have yet to be cataloged. While I conducted research the man who ran it classified 15 new documents today alone. That does not include the tens of thousands of both German and Japanese technical documents that wait cataloging.
So if we assume that NO FW-190A5/U13's served in Sicily then the werknummer listing is wrong.
If we assume the werknummer listing is correct, then without a doubt at least one FW-190A5/U13 was present.
When in doubt refers to primary sources.
Simply provide a link to this thread. He can view the documents. I would love to correspond with him about any FW-190 subject. I am sure it would be beneficial to both.
Crumpp
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That document you posted Crumpp is not from a primary source. A primary source would be a document produced by Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau GmbH, the RLM or the Luftwaffe.
Now care to produce a German document (ie. a primary source) with the designation A-5/U13 with any combat unit.
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Now care to produce a German document (ie. a primary source) with the designation A-5/U13 with any combat unit.
Read the first page in the top left hand corner.
Focke Wulf is a primary source on much of the information on the FW-190. However the Luftwaffe is the primary source on Luftwaffe designations.
Crumpp
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Should have bolded the with any combat unit so you would see it Crumpp.
Your document is not a primary source showing a A-5/U13 designation in the quartermaster's 'books' with a combat unit.
And, there is no reference, that I can see, in the American document to the German primary document it was supposidly was translated from.
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And, there is no reference, that I can see, in the American document to the German primary document it was supposidly was translated from.
It's there. You can get a copy from Wright Patterson's archives if your a US Citizen. Got a copy in my files. You can't read German anyway Milo.
It is a primary source that the FW-190A5/U13 is the same thing as an FW-190G3.
Which is contrary to your earlier claims.
Your document is not a primary source showing a A-5/U13 designation in the quartermaster's 'books' with a combat unit.
Never claimed it was a primary source for the exact unit, Milo. However IF:
1. That WNr. FW-190 was captured in Sicily
AND
2. The WNr. listing linked in this thread is correct
THEN
We have an FW-190A5/U13 serving in Sicily.
Crumpp
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No Crumpp, we have a Fw190G-3 in Sicily. The designation /U13 was used for the prototypes. I will take the word of a published professional researcher over yours, any day.
I asked for ANY LW unit that has a designation A-5/U13 on its books, which you have still failed to produce. You still have not produced ANY W.Nr. with the specific designation of Fw190A-5/U13.
Now what is the document number in the archives for the German document. You might be surprised about my German.:)
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we have a Fw190G-3 in Sicily. The designation /U13 was used for the prototypes.
Don't think so. Please produce a document saying that the FW-190A5/U13 was a single prototype ONLY and not a production Umrustsatz.
I don't think the prototype would have showed up in the Luftwaffe's report. The prototype FW-190G8 certainly did not. For that matter, neither did FW-190V5g, WNr. 0037, or ANY of the other prototype FW-190's of ANY series.
The ONLY FW-190's listed on this document are service models because the document is a listing of ALL service models in the FW-190 series.
Now sometime over the lifecycle of the FW-190A5/U13 the Luftwaffe changed the designation of the entire series of long-range ground attack variants to the "G" series. The variant then became known as the FW-190G3.
In fact to quote Griehl directly:
The prototype of this version, which was derived from the FW-190A5/U13, was WNr. 160420.
If the Werknummer listing here:
http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/werkn.htm
Is correct THEN
There were several hundred FW-190A5/U13's built before the designation was changed.
OR
The Werknummer listing is wrong and WNr. 160022 is not an FW-190G3 and those first several WNr. blocks listed under the FW-190G3's are in fact NOT WNr.'s assigned to FW-190G3's.
Crumpp
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Still with the reading problems Crumpp. I already gave you the W.Nr.s for the A-5/U13s. Now what are those W.Nr. for those hundreds of A-5/U13s you say were built. LOL, even your American document only states 85 produced which ended in Aug 1943.
Even Wolfgang Wagner says only 3 A-5/U13s were built.
You are the one convinced that the /U13 saw combat and have been asked repeatably to produce a primary source document but as yet you still have not produced a single primary source document saying what units used them. Note, it must be listed as a Fw190A5/U13 on the unit's books, or a primary source travel document for Fw190A5/U13s of any transfer flights from the factory to any unit.
You say the A5-/U13 saw combat, so it must have been a service model, so the LF should have documents. OBW, what document is 'this document'? Even the link only has /U3 and /U8 versions under the A-5 heading.
I would still like to have an explaination of how SKG10 could be testing /U13 a/c in NA when none had been made before they had left NA.
Heaven help us all if your 190 book ever gets published. It will set back 190 history at least 20 years.
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LOL, even your American document only states 85 produced which ended in Aug 1943.
Your correct Milo. I looked at the werknummer blocks and made a guess based on the numbers in the block before the G3 prototype.
The LUFTWAFFE document the USAAF translated does say 85 were produced in total.
That means we know that from Werknummer 160022 to the prototype "G3" werknummer 160420 were produced as FW-190A5/U13.
Otherwise that entire werknummer block listed as FW-190G3's is incorrect.
Please produce some documentation showing the FW-190A5/U13 was produced as a single prototype. The LUFTWAFFE documentation I have says it was not. It says it was an Umrustsatz.
In fact in all of Griehl's work I own the FW-190A5/U13 is simply listed as a ground attack varient that later became the G3. That is exactly what this LUFTWAFFE document says.
Crumpp
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Easy Milo :) Crumpp's heart seems to be in the right place. It's all about trying to learn and get more of the facts available and correct.
Nothing wrong with that.
Dan/Slack
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exuce my ignorance but,
whats a 190G? never heard of a G moddel before, whats different about it?
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As long as he only puts documents in it and leaves out any of his comments or opinions, Dan.;) He sees only what he wants to see. It is questionable of what he says is fact or fiction, for he is evasive/forgetful when asked, for example, the file number of the German document in the archives at W-P.
JHC, Crumpp. Your problem is you have a hard time reading. I never said there was a single prototype /U13. :rolleyes: Go back and read more carefully, this time, my post where I gave you the W.Nr.s. Since you are such the Fw190 expert, you should have no trouble following the lineage of those W.Nr.
Just because the Germans assigned a block of numbers to an a/c does not necessarily mean there was an a/c produced for every single number in that block. Any who have any knowledge, know this. In fact, production did not always start with the first number in the block. Out of the possible 550 W.Nr. assigned to the G-3 (/U13 added to keep you happy) ONLY 85 were manufactured (as per your American document).
quote:That means we know that from Werknummer 160022 to the prototype "G3" werknummer 160420 were produced as FW-190A5/U13.
Another JHC, Crumpp quit being so dense. Your own document says only 85 Fw190G-3(A-5/U13) were produced. Do you really know what you are talking about. It would seem not for you are claiming that 198, at least, /U13s were built.
As for Griehl's work, I have several other others which disagree with him.
No Crumpp, you are making the claim that the /U13 saw combat from the time SKG10 was in North Africa. It is up to you to produce primary source documention that the /U13 was in NA to back-up your claim. So far you have not. But since you can't produce this proof, you try to put the burden of proof on me. In fact, your claim of /U13s being in NA with SKG10 is ludicress(sp??).
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No Crumpp, you are making the claim that the /U13 saw combat from the time SKG10 was in North Africa.
No Milo I am not. I am saying that SKG 10 was conducting combat evaluations for beginnings of the FW-190G series during this time frame.
You need to drop your crappy attitude Milo. I did not berate you or accuse you of wrongdoing when you were wrong on the variants or claimed an aviation fuel shortage when none existed. Stop acting like a child.
Since we have an FW-190A5/U13 in theater the question becomes "Why is it in Sicily?"
There are only a couple of possibilities on this aircraft that I can see:
1. It is being ferried to the Eastern Front
a. Possible but not likely IMO - summertime ferry route is more direct AFAIK. The wintertime and for southern portion of the eastern front ferry route probably come down this far south but not the summer.
2. SKG 10 was conducting combat trials for the early G series around this time frame. The more likely explanation is that the A/C was enroute to SKG10 or had just been delivered. II (-) & III SKG 10 were stationed at Montecervino during this time frame. Stab, II, and IV/SKG 10 were at Gerbini. III/SKG was conducting the evaluations and the aircraft was captured at one of their airfields.
3. The FW-190A5U13 was enroute to Schlachtgeschwader 2.
Crumpp
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To refresh your memory Crumpp, from your post on pg 1.
The FW-190A5/U13 was blanket redesignated as the FW-190G3. SKG 10 was testing several (of??) these A/C during the Tunisia campaign.
Notice the word Tunisia in your statement. SKG10 had long since left Tunisia when the /U13 appeared. Tunisia is in North Africa.
Tell me Crumpp, how does one conduct 'combat evaluations' without being in/seeing combat?
You have still failed to produce a primary source document with the designation Fw190A-5/U13 showing the a/c was 'in theater'.
As for the southern ferry route. Why go to Sicily which is several hundred km out of the way to the south and west? Pull out a map of the eastern Med and you will see how ludicrous your supposition is. Never mind that the front line in the east was roughly from Lenigrad to Kiev to the Crimea in the later half of 1943.
When are you going to drop your snotty attitude Crumpp?
Again, what is the file number for the German document at W-P? One has to wunder why you will not produce it.
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Let's examine the progress of your argument Milo.
Here you say there were NO FW-190A5/U13's in Sicily:
No Crumpp, we have a Fw190G-3 in Sicily. The designation /U13 was used for the prototypes. I will take the word of a published professional researcher over yours, any day.
We now know that is completely wrong. Please post your published professional researcher finding on the FW-190A5/U13. None of the published material I have says that about the FW-190A5/U13. It was an Umrustsatz that was redesignated the FW-190G3. I will almost guarantee your interpretation of what he is saying is wrong.
Here you demonstrate you do not even KNOW what an FW-190A5/U13 is much less have a clue when, how, and who was using them.
Fw190A5/U13 was a combo of /U2 and /U8. There was 3 prototype a/c only, W.Nr 817(V43), 855(V44) and 1083(V42).
No you said there were 3. Obviously there were more FW-190A5/U13's than that. Again made form a position of no clue.
Your problem is you have a hard time reading. I never said there was a single prototype /U13.
And another total falsehood statement below, which stems from your lack of understand but great desire to be viewed as an expert on this subject.
Explain how SKG10 could be testing /U13 a/c if they were not converted (???) to that configuration until 1944. SKG10 was long gone from NA by that time.
In 1944 some of the FW-190A5/U13's produced were brought up to U2 standards by the addition of Glare shields, exhaust shrouds, and special lighting.
Tell me Crumpp, how does one conduct 'combat evaluations' without being in/seeing combat?
Are you really this dense? Are you saying III/SKG 10 was on Rest and Relaxation during the invasion of Sicily? Other than a completely moronic statement that just seeks to inflame, I have no idea where this is coming from.
Kind of sucks when you get treated as you treat others doesn't it , MILO. Do I really think you are trying to advance lies or stupid. No. I think your making honest mistakes like the rest of us. Facts are the history is much more murky than one would think.
Assuming that the werknummer listing is correct then the
Facts of this mystery are:
1. III/SKG 10 was conducting combat evaluations of the FW-190 that later became the G series during this time frame.
2. We have an FW-190A5/U13 with ferry markings was found on III/SKG 10's airfield in Sicily. This umrustsatz later became the FW-190G3.
3. We know that a number of FW-190A5/U13's were produced based on:
a. The WNr. listing (assuming it is correct)
b. The FW-190 in questions WNr. is 160022 and listed as an FW-190G3 as are all the FW-190A5/U13 werknummers.
c. The prototype FW-190G3's WNr. is 160420
The missing werknummers that were used are in all probability FW-190A5U13's.
AS for:
Milo says:
Your own document says only 85 Fw190G-3(A-5/U13) were produced.
Then Crumpp agrees:
The LUFTWAFFE document the USAAF translated does say 85 were produced in total.
After examining both documents in further detail.
That is a tough claim to make. The document breaks down production by factory and date on all the other varients. The format listing is different for the FW-190G3 alone for some reason. It does not explain what (a), (b), and (c) actually are in this case.
For the other varients (non-G series) it breaks it down in a different format.
(c) Could refer to total FW-190G3 production AFTER the designation was changed
OR
(c) Could refer to the total production of FW-190A5/U13's BEFORE the designation was changed. (This is what I think but can't state for a fact)
OR
(c) Could refer to the total production of FW-190G3's INCLUDING FW-190A5/U13 redesignated as FW-190G3's.
It does say that production was halted before the quota was met.
The document does not say and the original it was translated from is no help in answering this question.
Crumpp
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The only one being dense, confused and clueless is you Crumpp. Your latest post certainly confirms this and is not worth replying to as every one can see that don't know whether you are 'coming or going'. Are you sure your mother language is English?
I thought you had that American translation. It would seem to me that you don't, since you are speculating on what (a), (b) and (c) are.:eek:
The only one trying to come across as an expert on the 190 is you Crumpp, but then you are an expert on every thing.:rolleyes: So far you have shown that you are a very long way from being one.
While I am at it, what conclusions would you draw from this statement?
"In 1943 the Axis suffered even more catastrophic losses in the Mediterannean with 1,200 ships being sunk; and “in february only 25,000 tons had arrived instead of the 80,000 required""
LOL , a 55,000 tons shortage of supplies.
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I thought you had that American translation. It would seem to me that you don't, since you are speculating on what (a), (b) and (c) are.
What part of:
The document breaks down production by factory and date on all the other varients. The format listing is different for the FW-190G3 alone for some reason.
Is unclear to you Milo?
http://www.topedge.com/panels/ww2/na/supplies.html
No one is denying that Rommel did not have supply problems to his troops. Read the above site. It says nothing about the Luftwaffe experiencing fuel supply problems nor do any of the Luftwaffe units I am aware of mention fuel supply problems.
The Luftwaffe units do mention spare parts and aircraft supply problems but not fuel.
We know the Reich had plenty of aviation fuel and at this time was even exporting it. Getting fuel to an airfield is a completely different logistical problem from getting supplies to a manuver unit in the field.
Do not twist facts and add your own meaning.
Crumpp
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Yup, a smoke screen on your part since you fail to give any reference file number for the document in the archives at W-P.
Getting fuel across a large body of water, the Med is not as easy as a pipe line or rail transport as would be done in continental Europe. Supplying only 31% of the supplies required in Feb. which would include avgas. Then you have to truck, using scarce fuel, that avgas to the LW bases. Sure Crumpp. Spin any kind of story you want.
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Yup, a smoke screen on your part since you fail to give any reference file number for the document in the archives at W-P.
What number are you talking about Milo? This question shows your ignorance.
If you are talking about the Luftwaffe report:
Look at the top left of the first page!!
If your talking about WP filing system. I did not write it down because it is not relevant. The documents are kept in cardboard boxes and in numbered manilla folders. The only way to "search the database" is to pick up the files and thumb through them. It only took me a whole day.
Almost every document I have found contains multiple file numbers stamped across it.
Your question is completely ignorant and shows you have no experience in serious research on this subject.
Original reports look like this:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1099262570_116_1610.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1099262524_115_1584.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1099262483_115_1578.jpg)
And are very expensive. They may or may not contain a file or report number depending on the document.
Some Archives do keep a detailed file system such as:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1099262732_gm-1index.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1099262967_propindex.jpg)
Some documents contain Rechlin, Luftflotte, Company, or even local branch file numbers and others do not.
Crumpp
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Hey there.
In the future we will meet, in London perhaps, have countless pints of bitter, and we won't give doodly-squat about this thread ;)
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The box has to have some kind of ident on it as well as the manila envelope. Hence a filing reference number.
Your inability to read and comprehend English Crummp. My post about a lack of fuel. The Germans were in full retreat from Sicily. You are not bright enough to comprehend that the supply situation at that time would be in trouble and might mean that there was not enough fuel available to fly out all the a/c to Italy. Oh well that is what tunnel vision gives you, eh Crumpp.
Angus, there is some good pubs in St John's. How about there instead? :)
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You are not bright enough to comprehend that the supply situation at that time would be in trouble and might mean that there was not enough fuel available to fly out all the a/c to Italy.
Milo,
No your not smart enough to understand there is no mention of a fuel shortage by any of the Luftwaffe units AFAIK. However there is documented evidence that parts and planes were more of a problem for the Luftwaffe at this time.
The A/C in question could have had maintenance problems and therefore was not flown out.
I know EB-104 was captured in Sicily due to it being abandonend on the field with minor maintenance difficulties. At WP they had a complete record of the A/C. On the capture document it was listed as engine maintenance required and a log entry notes it took several days of engine work to get the plane airworthy IIRC.
Crumpp