Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: pellik on October 21, 2004, 02:35:05 PM
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First off let me say that I'm strongly in favor of the ENY limiter. I'm not making this post to complain about it in any way. I think attempting to create a fair and balanced main arena is a great goal for HT.
My questions and concerns have more to do with the ENY values of the planes themselves. Namely, what the hell do they represent? There are high ENY planes that can stack up very well with the extremely low ENY rides that get filtered out as the #s balance becomes too tilted toward one side, and there are low ENY planes that get cut right away that are practically useless to begin with. Is the current ENY value just some arbitrary value assigned by Pyro or HT? Or is there some formula I'm unfamilure with that determines these ENY settings?
My idea is to target two specific abilities with ENY value, so that the ENY limiter removes options from the horde, not just variety. The abilities I would like to see ENY based entierly around are max speed and climb rate. This partially fits with the current ENY system, which already reflects this as a result of late war planes being generally faster then early war planes. But there are too many exceptions to this trend for the limiter to really aid in the #s game. Can't fly a 51d or la7? Try a typhoon, 190, or 109G10. 109G10 is out? What about the early 109s, they still climb like a beast. Sure the typhy is slightly slower then the pony, but slight difference don't really matter much to the horde mentality. If every eny point increase lowered the top speed of a country in the main arena, as well as their ability to get to rediculously high altitude, the majority of the big horde would quickly get eaten up by the extremely fast smaller hordes. When flying outnumbered 10 to 1 you could just play E games with your advantaged climb rate, and when things go south you could just fly away with no real danger of being caught. This would suck terribly for the horde, but that's kind of the idea.
The slower speeds would also decrease their ability to roll over a country. The longer climbs to altitude and the longer transit times would neutralize even more of their numbers advantage.
I think the most important part of targeting such an essential aspect of flight like this is that even the newbies would learn how to take advantage of it. Not too many pilots in the MA know what changes to make to their flying style to avoid a typhoon instead of a pony, but even the dumbest pilot will figure out that if your opponent can only go 200mph, and your doing 450, he can't really touch you.
(Poor speed to help the n00bs on the under populated country. Poor climb to help the vets.)
-pellik
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Pellik,
Good thread starter.
Instead of using speed and climb as the value, how about JABO/Bombing ability.
The Horde can't roll across the board without ordinance carrying planes.
So perhaps it would eliminate 110's, Mossies, P-51-D, all the P-47s, Tiffy, B-17, B-26 in some order.
It's tough to capture bases with just LA-7s, La-5s, Spit V, C-205, since they carry so few bombs.
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Originally posted by MOSQ
Pellik,
Good thread starter.
Instead of using speed and climb as the value, how about JABO/Bombing ability.
The Horde can't roll across the board without ordinance carrying planes.
So perhaps it would eliminate 110's, Mossies, P-51-D, all the P-47s, Tiffy, B-17, B-26 in some order.
It's tough to capture bases with just LA-7s, La-5s, Spit V, C-205, since they carry so few bombs.
With towns already being so hard to knock down, I think reducing jabo capabilities would only further encourage the horde. If you require even more planes to take a field, you'll just get more planes in the horde.
-pellik
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scary..you want to restrict certain planes??
You know what they say?
They came for the Jews....but I wasnt one....they came for the muslims...but I wasnt one of them...They came for the Christians..but I wasnt one of them...when they came for rasta's..there was no one to help me
ok..well somthn like tht..lolo
I really would cancel my sub for protest if more planes get "locked up"
Whats wrong with hordes? If you arent fast enuff to chery pick or purse swing..stay on the outside..or go to the DA if you want a 1 vs1...or..join us.. http://www.flightladder.com
seems a horribel thing to do ..is to lock up soem bueatiful prop planes
Love
BiGB
xoxo
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
scary..you want to restrict certain planes??
You know what they say?
They came for the Jews....but I wasnt one....they came for the muslims...but I wasnt one of them...They came for the Christians..but I wasnt one of them...when they came for rasta's..there was no one to help me
ok..well somthn like tht..lolo
All i know is I'll have whatever you're smokin'. :D
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
scary..you want to restrict certain planes??
You know what they say?
They came for the Jews....but I wasnt one....they came for the muslims...but I wasnt one of them...They came for the Christians..but I wasnt one of them...when they came for rasta's..there was no one to help me
ok..well somthn like tht..lolo
I really would cancel my sub for protest if more planes get "locked up"
Whats wrong with hordes? If you arent fast enuff to chery pick or purse swing..stay on the outside..or go to the DA if you want a 1 vs1...or..join us.. http://www.flightladder.com
seems a horribel thing to do ..is to lock up soem bueatiful prop planes
Love
BiGB
xoxo
I'm not saying restrict more planes- I'm saying do a better job selecting which planes get restricted. I don't have a problem with the hordes, for the most part, but I don't like seeing a country's numbers drop to below 50 at prime time because they are all sick of getting ganged.
-pellik
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OK,
With a little further thought>>>
I hate the idea of restricting planes period anyway.
How about restricitng bombs?
At X% 1,000 lb bombs are no longer available.
At Y% 500 lb bombs and rockets are no longer available.
At Z% 250 lb bombs and rockets are no longer available.
The hordes get bigger and don't go away with the current ENY if the high numbers side thinks a reset is in the making. They will fly anything to win the "war". It happened again tonight, the NITS smelled (and will get) a reset. The ENY was at 30 again, but it made no difference. They want that win.
But if you take away their ordinance, they have a tough time advancing towards a reset. They can up any plane they want and furball away, they just can't pork and capture bases. ( W/O bombs).
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First things first. The ENY thing is a total failure. After a week or two of success as people swithched arround with the novelty of it. The numbers have firmly settled into the biggest gang bang ever.
alway 2 to 1 for the knights. Often 3 to 1.
Its just silly.
It managed to drive the numbers in the MA even LOWER...lol
Put in a side ballancing log in routine and get it over with. End the years of silly denial.
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Let me recap a little here, since most follow ups have been only on the ENY limiter in general and not my suggestion. The point of my post here is to sugguest a way to make the ENY limiter more effective, not to qualify the success it's had in it's current state.
The idea I'm proposing is to nearly remove the hordes ability to fight a horde fight, which is to straife the enemy like mad with HO attacks because there is no way he can deal with 20 guys coming at him from different directions. When climb rate and top speed are restricted there is increasingly little they can do about fast planes picking them and going for cheap kills. They can still swarm, but the effectiveness of that swarm should be only a fraction of what it is now. If I'm in a la7 and have 1 or 500 early war planes behind me like the hurri or p40 the level of danger I'm in doesn't really change, and I'll probably be able to grab a few kills despite the horde chasing me down. I'm suggesting the ENY limiter be set up so that being fast is a privlige given to the country that doesn't have the #s to help keep things fair.
-pellik
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Originally posted by MOSQ
OK,
With a little further thought>>>
I hate the idea of restricting planes period anyway.
How about restricitng bombs?
At X% 1,000 lb bombs are no longer available.
At Y% 500 lb bombs and rockets are no longer available.
At Z% 250 lb bombs and rockets are no longer available.
The hordes get bigger and don't go away with the current ENY if the high numbers side thinks a reset is in the making. They will fly anything to win the "war". It happened again tonight, the NITS smelled (and will get) a reset. The ENY was at 30 again, but it made no difference. They want that win.
But if you take away their ordinance, they have a tough time advancing towards a reset. They can up any plane they want and furball away, they just can't pork and capture bases. ( W/O bombs).
The current ENY limiter has shown that simply inconveniencing people isn't really going to do much to get them to switch countrys. They would rather go and complain on the forums about how the ENY limiter is unfair than switch to a country that doesn't offer the same horde benefits. Any annoyance, such as limiting ordanence, really isn't going to do anything that the current plane set restrictions doesn't already do. If a real handycap were given, instead of a gentle prod, the safty of the horde wouldn't be so appealing.
-pellik
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I think that pilots not in a squad could be shuffled automatically to different teams once numbers start to get lopsided, starting with lowest rank. That way, if you don't want to get shuffled, you can join a squad, and if you're a loner it shouldn't matter what side you're on, as long as you get to kill. Just a thought
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You're right, Pellik. It's the people, not the system.
Folks who whined enough to make HT put in ENY didn't want "balance" - balance implies equal chances. They just didn't like someone else having an advantage. They wanted to be the Horde, and now that they are they aren't whining about balance. To Hell with the fact that the MA is probably more imbalanced than before - and that it sucks even worse.
But you're forgetting the prime weapon of the Horde - the NOE bomber formations. Slap an ENY of 5 on ALL bomber formations and the Horde's effectiveness drops by probably a third.
I just hope that when HTC gets 2.1 out they turn their attention to fixing the MA. If the trend of lopsided odds continues, the MA will become a 2-country game on its own. And the forces that caused that will then make it a 1-country game.
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Folks who whined enough to make HT put in ENY didn't want "balance" - balance implies equal chances. They just didn't like someone else having an advantage. They wanted to be the Horde, and now that they are they aren't whining about balance.
Why must you persist in painting with a broad brush.
I was a participant in the initial discussions of ENY (as were you) ... I still support the ENY mechanism for balance.
I didn't whine (don't remember anybody whining in that thread)
I didn't want the advantage to switch from one side to another
I don't participate in any form of "Horde"ing
... and from what I see, the numbers, for the most part remain balanced. If not, the ENY kicks in and I am forced to fly a higher ENY plane ... no whining, nashing of teeth, or foot-stomping involved at all.
If you really want a subjective view of what's going on, then I suggest that you do a "tour" and stop looking at everything from the "Rook" point of view. You input, as of late, is very lopsided, and it is you that comes off as "whining".
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Originally posted by SlapShot
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If you really want a subjective view of what's going on, then I suggest that you do a "tour" and stop looking at everything from the "Rook" point of view. You input, as of late, is very lopsided, and it is you that comes off as "whining".
Please look at the tense of my statement. It is definately aimed at the whines that led to the implementation of ENY, and their authors, that I am referring to. Not the people who after the hammer was dropped stepped up to discuss how to make it work.
And I don't recall mentioning you or anyone by name, SlapShot.
And, yeah, I'm kind of cranky lately about this. About half the times I want to fly a little it's not worth it because the odds are so completely screwed. Every week the delta on the odds gets worse. And then I look at the BBS and it's silent on the subject of Bish/Knit hordes ... but there are frequent mentions now of Rooks only flying in the stratosphere recently (well, duhhhh). Isn't that conveeenient, as the Church Lady would say.
When ENY came out there was a lot of noise about how "it's no fun to be backed up week after week" by the pro-ENY crowd. Well, obviously 1/4 of the player base now has that week after week after week after week.
Either people want balance or they don't. And the behavior indicates that they don't.
The whole point of my post to pellik was that he didn't factor in the Horde's prime weapon (NOE heavy bombers) to his proposal, and he mustn't assume that everyone wants want he - and you and I, Slapshot - want.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Please look at the tense of my statement. It is definately aimed at the whines that led to the implementation of ENY, and their authors, that I am referring to. Not the people who after the hammer was dropped stepped up to discuss how to make it work.
And I don't recall mentioning you or anyone by name, SlapShot.
And, yeah, I'm kind of cranky lately about this. About half the times I want to fly a little it's not worth it because the odds are so completely screwed. Every week the delta on the odds gets worse. And then I look at the BBS and it's silent on the subject of Bish/Knit hordes ... but there are frequent mentions now of Rooks only flying in the stratosphere recently (well, duhhhh). Isn't that conveeenient, as the Church Lady would say.
When ENY came out there was a lot of noise about how "it's no fun to be backed up week after week" by the pro-ENY crowd. Well, obviously 1/4 of the player base now has that week after week after week after week.
Either people want balance or they don't. And the behavior indicates that they don't.
The whole point of my post to pellik was that he didn't factor in the Horde's prime weapon (NOE heavy bombers) to his proposal, and he mustn't assume that everyone wants want he - and you and I, Slapshot - want.
I did look at the tense of your statement and thought that you were referring ("Folks who whined enough to make HT put in ENY") to those that participated in the thread that I referenced. Sorry I misinterpreted your intentions.
No you didn't name names but when sweeping statements are made with broad brushes, and I feel that I have been swiped by the brush, wrongly, I feel the need to speak up. Nothing personal.
Dok ... prior to your re-introduction to AH, the drubbing that was being handed out on a daily basis, due to imbalance of numbers, does not even compare to what is seen lately (since the intro of ENY). I kid you not, and I am not embelishing to strengthen my position.
They weren't whines back then, they were more along the lines of "pleas". I don't know why people assume that HT/HTC buckles to "whines". It is my experience that if changes are made, they aren't made on a whim or a concerted "whine". The "whine", in and of itself, may cause HT/HTC to take a look, but I believe change is made when they believe that something is out of wack and not done just to "appease".
If HT/HTC buckled so easy to the volume of "whines", then the La-7 would have been perked a long time ago, killshooter would not be what we see today, the collision model would be different, and dive-bombing buff formations would already be a thing of the past.
If HT/HTC does end the dive-bombing buff formations (your biggest pet-peeve right now) would it be due to the volume of "whines" or would it be due to the fact that something is out of wack and something really needed to be done ? Was it the volume of "whines" that was the impetus for them to look at the problem and fix it, or would they just change it to silence the "whines" ?
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I like the lopsidedness.
It's back to the way it used to be and it's fun to be a rook again.
...it is funny though that the folks that posted unhappy thoughts re. the team numbers are not willing now to move about to fix it.
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Instead of basing ENY on total number of players, here's another solution:
Base ENY on the number of friendly planes within 100 miles of the base you're rolling out from? The planeset would still be available, however, lower ENY planes (lala, pony, etc) would have to take off from second line bases when a major furball is going on. Instead of removing them completely during unbalanced fights, it would decrease their overall density
upsides:
* People can stop whining since all planes are available.
* The outnumbered defenders don't have to contend with a non-stop stream of low ENY planes.
* Longer flights + longer climbs would take more fights off of the deck and back up to altitude.
* Decreased horde density.
* Fights across a more broad front.
downsides:
* Decreased horde density (works both ways. I like to ZnB the la7 herds in a g10.)
* Would impact the usefulness of low ENY planes that don't have drop tanks.
* Would need a loophole in the code to allow big missions to takeoff & not get raped by ENY just cuz they're all leaving the same base.
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I understand, Slapshot.
My main position is that the goal is to get the MA to be something that anyone can log into at any hour and be presented with some viable option to play the game. Right now that is not that way if you're a Rook. So it's still broken - you still have a large number of people who log in, see a more or less hopeless situation which will persist for hours or days, and then likely log off.
I don't think HT only fixes things because people complain. I do think the priority of things he fixes is affected by how much people gripe, though. Having been on his side of the fence for a couple of years, I'm very sure that it has an impact.
There will always be - and should always be - some level of numeric imbalance. This is, afterall, a war at some level. The core problem is that players have settled into a pattern where the relative odds do not change over the course of a week. So one group of people is always at a disadvantage. Worse still, the longer the imbalance persists the more the weaker country is attacked by both sides - either in their quest for a reset, or in their comfort in attacking only with overwhelming odds.
One thing which contributes to this is things like NOE bomber formations and towns which can be shot down by cannons. It makes winning by sheer weight of numbers so very easy - even with lesser planes. It is the path of least resistance.
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DoK ... I know exactly what you speak of ... but ...
Come fly with me some night as a Knight and I will show you stuff such as ...
I look at the map and see a remote base start to blink (with big Dar-Bar or no Dar-Bar).
I launch and lo and behold its an inbound Rook raid. Seems to be an endless supply of NOE Lancs, B17s, 110s, P-51s, P-47s, P-38s, N1Ks, 109s, 190s ... etc.
or
Seafires, A6Ms, F6Fs, FM-2, F4-Us ... like coming off a conveyor belt.
I guess I have run into the "Rook Horde". One can still be outnumbered and still have a "horde". These are the ones that really DON'T want to defend against the Knights/Bish and only want to milkrun on their own.
So ... as you and other Rooks take a beating on one or two fronts, you have your own private "horde" running amok and leaving you holding the bag.
This is what I fight EVERY night ... so even if the Knights enjoy a numbers advantage, there are still some of us who meet the "other horde" face on and in most instances, eventually get our arses handed to us ... but when we do turn them back ... that is the icing on the cake.
So ... my point is, I too face the "horde" most every night.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
DoK ... I know exactly what you speak of ... but ...
Come fly with me some night as a Knight and I will show you stuff such as ...
I look at the map and see a remote base start to blink (with big Dar-Bar or no Dar-Bar).
I launch and lo and behold its an inbound Rook raid. Seems to be an endless supply of NOE Lancs, B17s, 110s, P-51s, P-47s, P-38s, N1Ks, 109s, 190s ... etc.
or
Seafires, A6Ms, F6Fs, FM-2, F4-Us ... like coming off a conveyor belt.
I guess I have run into the "Rook Horde". One can still be outnumbered and still have a "horde". These are the ones that really DON'T want to defend against the Knights/Bish and only want to milkrun on their own.
So ... as you and other Rooks take a beating on one or two fronts, you have your own private "horde" running amok and leaving you holding the bag.
This is what I fight EVERY night ... so even if the Knights enjoy a numbers advantage, there are still some of us who meet the "other horde" face on and in most instances, eventually get our arses handed to us ... but when we do turn them back ... that is the icing on the cake.
So ... my point is, I too face the "horde" most every night.
Changed my mind not worth replying too. What a waste of time
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Originally posted by SlapShot
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I look at the map and see a remote base start to blink (with big Dar-Bar or no Dar-Bar).
I launch and lo and behold its an inbound Rook raid. Seems to be an endless supply of NOE Lancs, B17s, 110s, P-51s, P-47s, P-38s, N1Ks, 109s, 190s ... etc.
or
Seafires, A6Ms, F6Fs, FM-2, F4-Us ... like coming off a conveyor belt.
I guess I have run into the "Rook Horde". One can still be outnumbered and still have a "horde". These are the ones that really DON'T want to defend against the Knights/Bish and only want to milkrun on their own.
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Given a choice of "defending" against multiple Hordes and eventually just getting vultched when the NOE Lanc's and B17's and B26's pork what might otherwise be a decent battle, and going on the offensive somewhere else - I take the latter option myself. But I'm rarely attached to a group of more than 8 or 10. That ain't a Horde, and that ain't a milk run.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Given a choice of "defending" against multiple Hordes and eventually just getting vultched when the NOE Lanc's and B17's and B26's pork what might otherwise be a decent battle, and going on the offensive somewhere else - I take the latter option myself. But I'm rarely attached to a group of more than 8 or 10. That ain't a Horde, and that ain't a milk run.
I am not really choosing to defend against multiple hordes, that just the way that it works out most of the time. What I hope for is to run in a group such as yours (8 to 10) willing to fight and if repelled, might come back again for some more fun and fighting.
My point was that hordes exist in all countries at all times ... some hordes being bigger than others ... so you don't have to be on the out-numbered side to experience/deal with the horde at anytime when logging into the MA.
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Anyway ... getting back to the original idea ... throttling odds via a shift in the motif of ENY ... focusing on certain capabilities (speed, ordinance, etc.) ...
- Ordinance is only really needed to close hangers. Cities can be handily taken down by any quad-cannon birds. So for this idea to work cities and capital ships need to be cannon-proofed.
- The Horde doesn't really need speed or climb rate as much. It has numbers and bases are close - so if they need an extra minute to climb to altitude, there's plenty of friendlies around to keep the few enemies occupied.
- NOE bomber formations need to somehow be part of this equation. Take these away and the Horde becomes much more of a band of lawn-darts and therefore much easier to cope with.
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- Ordinance is only really needed to close hangers. Cities can be handily taken down by any quad-cannon birds. So for this idea to work cities and capital ships need to be cannon-proofed.
Sounds good to me.
- The Horde doesn't really need speed or climb rate as much. It has numbers and bases are close - so if they need an extra minute to climb to altitude, there's plenty of friendlies around to keep the few enemies occupied.
OK.
- NOE bomber formations need to somehow be part of this equation. Take these away and the Horde becomes much more of a band of lawn-darts and therefore much easier to cope with.
What is your thoughts on how to prevent NOE bomber formations. I am at a loss as to how HTC could hamper/limit this.
Dive bombing formations is also a problem as far as I am concerned. Wouldn't requiring one to be in the "scope" to unload bombs on formations solve this problem ?
I still like the idea of moving the "towns" further from the field.
This would eliminate the lack of town killers that are lost to the vulch cap. This would in a sense elimiate vulching and also require the attackers to put up a fighting front between the base and the town.
I would also have a GV hanger(s) at the town and/or a spawn point from the base to the town. This would still provide some sort of immediate defense at the town, and give the GVers a role. If the attack force wants to be effective, they would have eliminate this threat rather quickly.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
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What is your thoughts on how to prevent NOE bomber formations. I am at a loss as to how HTC could hamper/limit this.
Dive bombing formations is also a problem as far as I am concerned. Wouldn't requiring one to be in the "scope" to unload bombs on formations solve this problem ?
I still like the idea of moving the "towns" further from the field.
...
I agree that the "battles" should be more over the towns - vehicle bases should be relocated to the cities so that the tank v. tank battles happen there instead of parked at the end of runways. And fields should only be capturable when 2 "adjacent" towns are captured (or something like that).
As for NOE bomber formations - ENY 'em at 5. Single bombers are still at their current ENY, but you lose formations as soon as the odds start to swing seriously your way. And if you have that many surplus players, you can afford 1 pilot per bomber. Set the ENY for formations of Boston's and Ju-88's at like 10 - the Ki-67 at like 8.
This indirectly affects the dive bombing heavies in that it greatly reduces their odds of getting close enough to press forward their lame-brained attack. And it reduces their payload as well.
I would think this is a pretty easy fix to put in.
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Originally posted by Furious
I like the lopsidedness.
It's back to the way it used to be and it's fun to be a rook again.
...it is funny though that the folks that posted unhappy thoughts re. the team numbers are not willing now to move about to fix it.
I totally agree. It's much better and much more fun overall to be fighting 5 enemy than to be fighting over 1 enemy with 5 friendlies. It's the climate that made me fall in love with AH. I love being Rook!
I think that's why there's not much whining about numbers now. Rooks have been outnumbered before and just learned how to deal with it on their own. It's not a big deal for most with experience, you just have to adjust your tactics accordingly. Inevitably, you'll be reset if outnumbered for extended periods, so if land-grabbing is your game, long-term numbers imbalance is an issue. But, imbalance doesn't mean you can't find good fights. In fact, the quality of fights goes up the more you are outnumbered, to a point, it just requires you fly higher and engage and dis-engage more descriminately to avoid the would-be gang-bangers.
Zazen