Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on October 24, 2004, 11:34:55 AM
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A civil discussion on weather or not you think israel will take preembtive action against Iran if they persue proliferation of Nuke weapons.
My opinion says yes. They did it before with Iraq and Sadam, they will do it again. Israels neighbors are hell bent on destroying her, they would see this as in the best interest of national security.
The current admin will decry the action publicly but will probably be happy it got done and our hands are clean of it.
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A civil discussion in the o'club!? No, I dont think they'll do it. ;)
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Originally posted by Octavius
A civil discussion in the o'club!? No, I dont think they'll do it. ;)
Yea I know.....I threw that whole "civil" part in there in hopes that it might tame the thread slightly. Oct. do you care to elaborate why you think they wont?
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If Iran and other countries in the middle east are still bent on Israel's destruction, as it appears to be, then perhaps Iran actually wants Israel to attack so there can be an all out retaliation against Israel, mirroring the six day war in 1967. In that conflict Israel struck first, however brought on by Nasser closing the gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping in a move provoking Israel to war. Nasser's goal was to pull Israel into conflict so the combined forces of the Arab states could annihilate her. Haha too bad the Israeli's beat their arses again.
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curious, was there a major retaliation when they struck Sadams Nuke facilities in the 80's?
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Well US is supporting Israel; maybe Iranians should manufacture few tons of sarin and spread them in Washington; pre-emptive strike and as such fully acceptable as US and Israel have shown in Iraq and Sudan :)
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I wonder, what steps could a country like Iran take to develop nuclear weaponry without being attacked? Eg, what combination of diplomacy and foreign policy would allow a non-G8 country to get that sort of power?
In the 90s, I often felt sympathy for the plight of the palestinian refugees, for example, but right when their impassioned speeches to the media reached a point where I felt that 'yeah, these guys are getting the shaft', they'd start talking about zionist conspiracies and jewish bankers being pushed into the ocean and so on, and they'd lose me. I remember thinking, 'These guys would probably get further if they hired a PR company to manage their affairs'.
If you apply that to a country like Iran, I wonder what machinations would give them the latitude to build this stuff? Is there a right combination of words that the global players will accept?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I wonder, what steps could a country like Iran take to develop nuclear weaponry without being attacked? Eg, what combination of diplomacy and foreign policy would allow a non-G8 country to get that sort of power?
In the 90s, I often felt sympathy for the plight of the palestinian refugees, for example, but right when their impassioned speeches to the media reached a point where I felt that 'yeah, these guys are getting the shaft', they'd start talking about zionist conspiracies and jewish bankers being pushed into the ocean and so on, and they'd lose me. I remember thinking, 'These guys would probably get further if they hired a PR company to manage their affairs'.
If you apply that to a country like Iran, I wonder what machinations would give them the latitude to build this stuff? Is there a right combination of words that the global players will accept?
IIRC they had a UN team there to monitor they're development but ended up kicking them out or something.
Staga do you think a Gass attack on a nation's capital is equivilent to a strategic attack on a Nuke production plant?
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Consider this: Israel IS a nuclear power. Its missiles can reach far beyond Iran. If Iran develops a nuclear capability (and in keeping with Iran's threat to destroy Israel), I'd expect a pre-emptive nuclear strike by Israel.
Therefore, if we let Iran develop nuclear weapons, we invite the strong possibility of a major nuclear disaster.
It's past time to quash the Iranian maniacs. But, I fear Europe lacks the will to participate. So, be ready for the USA and Russia to team up to eliminate the threat. Putin has already stated his determination to strike wherever he sees a threat (Iran has been supplying the rebels and terrorists in Chechnya). Likewise, Bush is no shrinking violet on Iran. Add the probability that Bin Ladin is currently in Iran and you have provided two of the world's most powerful nations with substantial motives to deal with Iran in a most violent manner.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Staga
Well US is supporting Israel; maybe Iranians should manufacture few tons of sarin and spread them in Washington; pre-emptive strike and as such fully acceptable as US and Israel have shown in Iraq and Sudan :)
Better yet spread a few tons of sarin in Helsinki, then maybe you might begin to understand
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Israel won't attack Iran with fighter bombers or missles...
Mossad will smuggle a small nuke into Iran's facility so that Iran can have an 'accident' that will destroy it's efforts and set it back 20 years.
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And yes, I believe that Isreal will take care of the nuke problem in Iran. They Know what would happen if they did'nt.
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Israel doesn't do anything alone. The U.S. is getting yanked into this one, & I'm sure Boosh is behind it somehow. sigh
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Staga do you think a Gass attack on a nation's capital is equivilent to a strategic attack on a Nuke production plant?
You really haven't learnt anything about recent happenings, for example in N.Y and in Iraq ?
Do you expect a country like Iran to use conventional weapons against US nuclear arsenal?
Of course not or you would be naive; if third world country would attack against US it would use biological and chemical weapons and use different ways to delivere them to US.
Now what I don't understand why pre-emptive strike is acceptable if it's done by US or Israel but if some other country would hit you first you'd scream bloody murder?
btw when was last time Iran attacked against some country? When was last time US did the same?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Yea I know.....I threw that whole "civil" part in there in hopes that it might tame the thread slightly. Oct. do you care to elaborate why you think they wont?
They won't do a civil discussion that is. A few posts into it, so far so good. :)
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Originally posted by Staga
You really haven't learnt anything about recent happenings, for example in N.Y and in Iraq ?
Do you expect a country like Iran to use conventional weapons against US nuclear arsenal?
Of course not or you would be naive; if third world country would attack against US it would use biological and chemical weapons and use different ways to delivere them to US.
Now what I don't understand why pre-emptive strike is acceptable if it's done by US or Israel but if some other country would hit you first you'd scream bloody murder?
btw when was last time Iran attacked against some country? When was last time US did the same?
I was simply pointed out the differences in attacking.
Example....what strategic good would a gass attack on DC or NYC do?
Answer....nothing except incite fear and anger.
What strategic good would a conventional strike on Nuke facilities in Iran do? Alot, It is a specific target, not an attempt to kill as many civilians as possible.
I don't buy into the fact that the US supports Israel therfore terrorists need to attack America instead. Truth be told I beleive with nukes Iran would gladly take the chance to strike Israel and hope for the best. This is were a preemtive strike BY ISRAEL would be justified.
Just cause syria or jordan may support Iran does not mean we strike them first, not unless there is a viable reason IE support of terrorism.
But in the end I'm not trying to justify anything here I asking if YOU beleive they will or will not do it?
EDIT:
Staga are you also saying that you disagree with UN policy. You mentioned Sudan earlier...If you try and somehow blame the US for that you belong in a mental hospital. If you think that the US and Israel are the only ones that don't want Iran to have nukes you are just blind. This has been a UN effort of diplomacy for the last 2 years. No one here is just gonna attack someone out-right if there is a chance to diplomatically handle this or at least delay it a couple of years.
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Tell me how could a country like Iran attack against US strategic targets? You know very well that is's more or less impossible. So what can they do when put between a rock and a hard place?
At least I would use any way I could to retaliate the aggressions; If it means using dirty tricks so be it. I may get hurt but maybe the aggressor would think twice before he commits his actions against me or someone else.
I don't want Iran, or any other country, to get nuclear weapons either but I also don't think a "pre-emptive strike" is the answer to your problems; it would be just another tool for Ajatollahs and other nutbags for rising the islamistic countries against western world and especially against Israel and US.
Of course it looks like that's what you want so maybe you'll get it :)
You know the sayings "You reap what you sew" and "You've made your bed; Now lie in it".
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Originally posted by Staga
Tell me how could a country like Iran attack against US strategic targets? You know very well that is's more or less impossible. So what can they do when put between a rock and a hard place?
At least I would use any way I could to retaliate the aggressions; If it means using dirty tricks so be it. I may get hurt but maybe the aggressor would think twice before he commits his actions against me or someone else.
I don't want Iran, or any other country, to get nuclear weapons either but I also don't think a "pre-emptive strike" is the answer to your problems; it would be just another tool for Ajatollahs and other nutbags for rising the islamistic countries against western world and especially against Israel and US.
Of course it looks like that's what you want so maybe you'll get it :)
You know the sayings "You reap what you sew" and "You've made your bed; Now lie in it".
well that was at least a better answer. And you make a point but what happens after deplomacy fails? That is what is going on right now.....UN and alot of Euro countrys are pressuring/negotiating w/ Iran trying to get them to stop enriching uranium. What happes when this fails, is Israel supposed to just sit there and get Nuked?
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Originally posted by Widewing
...But, I fear Europe lacks the will to participate....
My regards,
Widewing
Just get the French to surrender to the Iranians, then we can call it another liberation!
LOL
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bodhi let us not forget.
you=french!
Europe doesn't want to get into this, they had enough of huge wars. So it will likely be the european superpowers who aregoing to make europe choice. But isreal could be taking a huge risk if done with nukes. if done with nukes then isreal will be over ran in weeks by europe and the rest of the world. It would make for huge unapproval ratings. IMo it is best to let iran take the first move and go on from there. And Iran won't move they will just sit and twiddle their thumbs and it will become a stalemate. Iran doesn't have the will to attack irseal because she no support.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Consider this: Israel IS a nuclear power. Its missiles can reach far beyond Iran. If Iran develops a nuclear capability (and in keeping with Iran's threat to destroy Israel), I'd expect a pre-emptive nuclear strike by Israel.
Therefore, if we let Iran develop nuclear weapons, we invite the strong possibility of a major nuclear disaster.
So if i see it correctly, you say, that if one nation nuke other, its ok
but when 2 nations nuke eatch other, you consider it diseaster ?
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btw can anyone post some links, where Iranian authority claim that they are intersting in destroying israel or any other country ?
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Originally posted by lada
btw can anyone post some links, where Iranian authority claim that they are intersting in destroying israel or any other country ?
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20031230.shtml
http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm
If you even have to ask for proof that most Arab countrys would love to see Israel destroyed...........well never mind. It is supposed to be a CIVIL discussion.
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according to first link..... ummm i dont know why Israel or US didnt offer any help, but we did and we was there...
Can you post some link by Iranian news agency, where they refuse help from israel ?
http://www.vnitro.cz/hasici/aktualit/2003/tz1231.html
About the nuke.... Yeah ... some Cleric LOL
I guess we can find much more smart cleris all around world....
Any other statement... for example from someone in Goverment and not retarded cleric ??
however thx for link, interesting reading...
btw that server is located in Florida :)
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Originally posted by lada
So if i see it correctly, you say, that if one nation nuke other, its ok
but when 2 nations nuke eatch other, you consider it diseaster ?
Any use of nuclear weapons would be terrible.... Especially for the nation on the receiving end, wouldn't you agree? Therefore, it is essential that the so far useless UN resolve to forcing Iran into giving up its desire for nukes, or.... The major powers will do it anyway and it won't be pretty by any measure.
My regards,
Widewing
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Lada can you even try and add to the descussion. There is no need for any of us to provide specific links to reasons why Iran would want to take out the jewish state. That has been the goal for ALL muslim countrys for a very long time. Jewish hatred is what drives them to do the things they do. It is the main reason that US civilians (IE woman and children) are targeted, because they support a nation that supports Israel. This isn't even worth talking about to you since all you want to do is fan the flame.
The thread topic is do you think Israel will launch a preemtive strike (conventional or otherwise) against Iran if deplomacy fails to halt their nuke program? I am not trying to justify either nations actions just curious about if people think Israel would do it even considering they've done it before.
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Golly-gee how fearless and triggerhappy people you are; real John Waynes :)
What are you going to do? Make a pre-emptive attack to Iran and Bomb it? Maybe even a full-scale ground attack?
Just don't cry if some nutbag wants to revenge and blows up the building your family happens to live.
Heh I heard a funny joke... "What happens when westerner goes to an elevator and presses the button?
Elev goes up.
What happens when muslim radical goes to an elevator and presses the button?
Whole building goes down.
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Originally posted by Staga
What are you going to do? Make a pre-emptive attack to Iran and Bomb it? Maybe even a full-scale ground attack?
Israel just bought a cubic metric s**tload of bunker busters. I wonder what they are for?
Continued from Staga
Heh I heard a funny joke... "What happens when westerner goes to an elevator and presses the button?
Elev goes up.
What happens when muslim radical goes to an elevator and presses the button?
Whole building goes down.
Really funny... (silence, broken by an occasional cough, a waitress serving drinks in the far back corner)
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Originally posted by Staga
Golly-gee how fearless and triggerhappy people you are; real John Waynes :)
What are you going to do? Make a pre-emptive attack to Iran and Bomb it? Maybe even a full-scale ground attack?
Just don't cry if some nutbag wants to revenge and blows up the building your family happens to live.
Heh I heard a funny joke... "What happens when westerner goes to an elevator and presses the button?
Elev goes up.
What happens when muslim radical goes to an elevator and presses the button?
Whole building goes down.
Staga don't you think this is a topic worth discussing.
Facts:
Iran who is ran by radical cleric muslims is hellbent on destroying the jewish state is developing nukes
Israel who's been attacked by acts of terrorism for the last decade fully realizes the threat AND has in the past taken preemtive action against another threat (Sadam)
To me when you are the smallest guy on the block that knows how to scrap you are gonna defend yourself. Even if that means kickin another guy in the teeth before him and his buddys can jump you.
I don't envision Isreal nuking the entire country....I think they'll use an airstrike and hit the plants/enrichment facilitys and try and set them back a decade or so.
to me it makes sense considering the history of the region.
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It's past time to quash the Iranian maniacs. But, I fear Europe lacks the will to participate. So, be ready for the USA and Russia to team up to eliminate the threat. Putin has already stated his determination to strike wherever he sees a threat (Iran has been supplying the rebels and terrorists in Chechnya). Likewise, Bush is no shrinking violet on Iran. Add the probability that Bin Ladin is currently in Iran and you have provided two of the world's most powerful nations with substantial motives to deal with Iran in a most violent manner.
There's two reasons no sane US president is going to attack Iran at the moment.
One is oil. Iran is one of the major producers, and there is only just adequate supply at the moment. Attack Iran and oil goes up to $100 a barrel immediately, even more if the Iranians attack other oil facilities in the Gulf (like Iraq's)
Second is the situation in Iraq. If the US attacks Uran, expect the number of attacks in Iraq to go through the roof, and the US death toll with it. Also expect in 2 - 3 years a US pullout from the region, a far more radicalised Iran and Iraq, and far more problems than we have now.
Truth is, there's not much that can be done now to stop Iran aquiring nukes if they want them.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
There's two reasons no sane US president is going to attack Iran at the moment.
One is oil. Iran is one of the major producers, and there is only just adequate supply at the moment. Attack Iran and oil goes up to $100 a barrel immediately, even more if the Iranians attack other oil facilities in the Gulf (like Iraq's)
Second is the situation in Iraq. If the US attacks Uran, expect the number of attacks in Iraq to go through the roof, and the US death toll with it. Also expect in 2 - 3 years a US pullout from the region, a far more radicalised Iran and Iraq, and far more problems than we have now.
Truth is, there's not much that can be done now to stop Iran aquiring nukes if they want them.
True...but an Israli strike wich would be expected yet condemd by the US would have far less impact. Also, I don't believe it would be a large scale airstrike accorss the country.....just a few strategic targets.
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An Israeli airstrike would also have far less effect.
Iran took part in the airstrikes against Iraq's nuclear program in the early 80s, and they've not only spread their nuclear facilities around, they've buried some of them.
Given that their admitted plants are subject to inspection, the real work is likely going on in underground plants that will be hard for the Israelis to hit.
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When are you gonna learn, Gunslinger?
Niether the US, nor its close allies can ever do anything without being viewed as the aggressors. We make a retaliatory strike against an enemy, it's an illegal act of violence, a crime against humanity. When this same enemy decides to strike at us preemptively, it's because we were asking for it, because we'd pressed the poor, marginalized, harmless little nation up against the wall, leaving it with no other course of action. There was no evil until we started our emperialistic enslavement. No bad men with guns... Just innocent shepards and farmers whom we forced into armed combat. We're the bullies, and they're the freedom fighters. If and when the case may be that the preemptive strike happens to be an act of terrorism, then it's a 'nutbag' fanatic who's at fault--a man whose actions cannot, in any way, be indicative of the general sentiments held by the people who subsequently march around, by the thousand, with photos and banners glorifying the actions of said fanatic. Conversely, when we strike back, it's a corrupt administration backed by a nation of naive, bible-thumping simpletons. And after we strike back, it's a unanimous: 'now you understand why they use airliners as cruise missiles.'
Example: The earlier thread on why we used the atomic bomb. Of course it was our fault the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. We had no right striking back. We certainly had no right striking back with superior technology.
And the same goes for Israel. We're co-conspirators with the Israelis, you see. A pair of wealthy, Zionist-ruled nations, worthy of unending suspicion and doomed to fall just as Rome fell, under the weight of our own sins and indulgence.
The funny thing is, this criticism is generally coming from the sidelines. It's easy as hell to reprimand a nation whose interests spread to every corner of the globe when you're a citizen of a country that has barely been a blip on the radar of modern international affairs. How wonderful it must be to know everything, to be infallible...How orgasmically cozy it must feel to be engulfed, head to toe, in the safety blanket of global insignificance.
Will the Israelis do it? I don't know. All I know is that there is no such thing as an Israeli preemptive strike. There has never been. Like it or not, they're at ideological odds with just about everyone else in their region. Make no mistake about it, gentlemen. They are hated, outnumbered and worst of all, feared. They strike when they're threatened, and because they do it with ruthless efficiency, because they do it with advanced weaponry, and because they do it against an armed enemy(verses an unarmed child or grandmother) that is either too busy praying or simply to backward to respond in like, they will always be viewed as the aggressor.
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Israel just bought a cubic metric s**tload of bunker busters. I wonder what they are for?
those are for self defence... :D
and lada:
destroying israel is one of irans goals. you have to be extremely naive not to belive in that... there where countless declerations from irani officials about making israel no more.
they are allso activly train and fund terrorist organizations and probably have a great deal of control on their leadership..
last year israely navy captured several smuggling boats full of weapons (including 240mm rockets and anti tank launchers) where do you think those weapons came from?
as for the rest of the scenarios posted, you guys watch way too much movies :)
i must say i dread the day iran will achive nuclear capability. not because i think they will use it.. they are not that stupid. but because it will completely unbalance the middle east. iran will become "un invadeable" and basicly could do what ever she wants with out fear of serious retaliation.
i hardly belive that israel in its currnt state will launch a strike, unless the US will ask her to (which might happen hopefully)
but the iranians will be prepare this time. like the old saying "fool me once shame on you- fool me twice shame on me"
they wont do the same mistake iraq did..
lets just hope for the sake of the western world that iran will never achive nuclear power.
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btw.
feel free to correct any grammer or spelling mistakes :D
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good post Neubob,
I have never felt that America is a nation with clean hands but one thing is for sure. 9/11 changed the way I feel about the rest of the world. I no longer care what about other nation's "opinions" of my country. Those day's are long gone, they just don't matter.
When I see idiot protesters marching for the plight of Hamas and waving Israli flags that have swasticas on them I'm reminded just how dumb people can really be. These people remind me of the fact that those that decry America's actions never have her best interests in mind to begin with.
I think Israel will strike. I don't think they will ask anyone's permission to do so becaue an Iran w/ nukes is not in Israel's best interest.
We live in exciting times gents and these are power plays. It's gonna be interesting to see how history unfolds itself.
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but an Israli strike wich would be expected yet condemd by the US
The problem is any Israeli strike at Iran's nuclear facilities has to cross Iraq. Iraq's airspace is controlled by the US, and so Israel can only attack if the US agrees.
i must say i dread the day iran will achive nuclear capability. not because i think they will use it.. they are not that stupid. but because it will completely unbalance the middle east. iran will become "un invadeable" and basicly could do what ever she wants with out fear of serious retaliation.
Yes, that's what I think as well.
i hardly belive that israel in its currnt state will launch a strike, unless the US will ask her to (which might happen hopefully)
but the iranians will be prepare this time. like the old saying "fool me once shame on you- fool me twice shame on me"
they wont do the same mistake iraq did..
I think an attack will do minor damage to Iranian nuclear facilities. The Iranians will respond by withdrawing from non proliferation treaties, and it will actually speed up their nuclear program.
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The islamic terorists are not unlike the Japanese during WW2. They're extremely fanatical and are perfectly willing to die for their cause.
Like the Japanese, I don't think they'll give up until faced with the prospect of having their entire race wiped off the face of the earth. They're motivated, and they believe they're right. They WILL NOT just up and quit because we ask them to or because we replace one shaky government with another. As with WW2, we must give the islamics a choice between unconditional surender, or the complete and utter destuction of their entire people--and we must have the resolve to follow through with it if they choose the latter. Look at what it took before the Japanese finally threw in the towel--hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians slaughtered, most of their cities leveled to the ground, their nation completely ruined economically. They were this - close to being eradicated from existance. It's incredibly ugly, dirty business. But it's better to end it now than to see my gandchildren still fighting it. Let the historians 50 years hence debate whether we did the right thing from the safety of their offices, rather than let our children and our children's children continue what we didn't finish. It's better that way.
The way we're fighting this "war" now, it'll never end. We aren't fighting it to win. They sure are--they're doing their best with what they have to destroy us--but we aren't. War is always dirty business, so the quicker it's over with the better. Let them see what it means to face the entire wrath of the United States. Let us fight with a grim resolve that frightens our enemies and maybe some of our friends.
I don't CARE whether we do the "moral" thing, or the "nice" thing. What good is being "right" if you're dead? No, if you're going to fight, you either fight to win with 100% effort, or don't fight at all.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Nashwan
The problem is any Israeli strike at Iran's nuclear facilities has to cross Iraq. Iraq's airspace is controlled by the US, and so Israel can only attack if the US agrees.
The US doesnt have to agree, Do you think We would launch interceptors if the Israeli's had a fairly large strike group heading for Iran?
We would identify them as the IAF, and probably vector our airborne aircraft away from them to prevent an "Accident". Possibly launch a KC135 to make sure they got enough gas to get back to Israel.
Surely the Syrians or Jordainians would be pretty peeved and could possibly inform the Iranians that they were coming, Who knows what would happen about that. Surely the IDF would have aircraft ready to handle them if things got ugly.
So, In other words, Yes, I beleive Israel is capable of doing it and doing it successfully as well. Will they do it? That I dont know, give it a couple of years and I wouldn't be suprised.
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Originally posted by Staga
You really haven't learnt anything about recent happenings, for example in N.Y and in Iraq ?
Do you expect a country like Iran to use conventional weapons against US nuclear arsenal?
Of course not or you would be naive; if third world country would attack against US it would use biological and chemical weapons and use different ways to delivere them to US.
Now what I don't understand why pre-emptive strike is acceptable if it's done by US or Israel but if some other country would hit you first you'd scream bloody murder?
btw when was last time Iran attacked against some country? When was last time US did the same?
So Captain Ameristalker, exactly how many WMDs did the
evil American Empire hit Iraq with?
Iran was attacking oil tankers in the Persian Gulf quite
regularly during the 80s, guess that little datum passed under
your radar screen.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Lada can you even try and add to the descussion. There is no need for any of us to provide specific links to reasons why Iran would want to take out the jewish state. That has been the goal for ALL muslim countrys for a very long time.
I do not agree on this statement.
It has been claimed by some little group of retarded idiots or countries whitch are at war.
My point in this discusion is.... That i do not see any single reason, why should Iran attack anyone.
They are interesting in quite a lot other things...
http://www.irna.ir/?SAB=OK&LANG=EN&PART=_ARCHIVE&TYPE=_NARCHIVE&id=20041022182854F01
i found a bit more things about their activitions
http://www.irna.ir/?SAB=OK&LANG=EN&PART=_ARCHIVE&TYPE=_NARCHIVE&id=20041022094723F01
http://www.irna.ir/?SAB=OK&LANG=EN&PART=_ARCHIVE&TYPE=_NARCHIVE&id=20041022105210F01
But i didnt find anything related to "Death to Evil non-muslim coutnries"
Actualy why do you fear ? What information did you get, that you have sutch attitude.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
The problem is any Israeli strike at Iran's nuclear facilities has to cross Iraq. Iraq's airspace is controlled by the US, and so Israel can only attack if the US agrees.
The only one problem are S-300`s, whitch has been part of Nuclear Technology order from Russia. :)
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Originally posted by Flyboy
those are for self defence... :D
and lada:
destroying israel is one of irans goals. you have to be extremely naive not to belive in that... there where countless declerations from irani officials about making israel no more.
they are allso activly train and fund terrorist organizations and probably have a great deal of control on their leadership..
last year israely navy captured several smuggling boats full of weapons (including 240mm rockets and anti tank launchers) where do you think those weapons came from?
Wow ... realy ... thats odd.... non of my iranian friends around know anyhing about sutch goal.
However.... my Kurdish friend from Kermanshash, proud iranian, had very good relation ships with his jewish neigbour.... .
But you probably hear it on CNN, so its holy true..
Yeah ..... and every month there is many Tons of Drugs, whitch leave Iran trough Iraq or Azerbaijdzan...... I guess you probably belive that those drugs has been grow by Iranain goverment, to destroy Western youths ... right ?
And we better do not talk about Afghanistan and Russia. Coz average american is probably convinced, that there is not smugliing in Iran, they simply produce all those baaaad things to silently destroy you....... rofl
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Originally posted by Rino
So Captain Ameristalker, exactly how many WMDs did the
evil American Empire hit Iraq with?
Iran was attacking oil tankers in the Persian Gulf quite
regularly during the 80s, guess that little datum passed under
your radar screen.
So Iran, while in war against Iraq, atacked oil tankers 20 years ago.
Was it about same time United States warship USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian Airbus and killed all 290 of its passengers? Wow that many kills with one missile... You must be proud :)
When was last time US attacked a country ? Was Iraq the latest one? Where are the WMDs ?
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I try to show you the iranian point of view:
Iran already has missiles which can reach Israel.
Iran also has chemical weapons - so it could use them to equip these missiles.
But - surprise, surprise - Iran didnt attacked Israel.
Also - in the last 100 years Iran has not attacked any other nation with its military.
On the other side Iran was attacked during WW1 - despite its declared neutrality.
Iran was attacked and occupied by the allies during WW2 - despite its neutrality.
Irans democracy was destroyed in the 50tes by foreigners which resulted in the terror regime of the Shah and his SAVAK and later in the terror regime of the mullahs and the SAVAMA/VEVAK.
Iran was attacked by Iraq and forced in a bloody 8 year war.
The last thing Iran would do is to attack Israel. Because Israel is a very useful tool to distract the sworn enemy of the iranians: the arabs. Arabs and Israelis are members of the semite race - Iranians are not.
My uncle once told me a joke: If 20 palestinian arabs and 5 Israelis are killed in fighting each other, Iran leads 25:0.
For most iranian the arabs are a much worse threat to Iran than Israel.
Also its not so much the nuclear power of the jewish Israel, which cause fear in the shiite Iran, but much more the nuclear power of the sunnite islamic Pakistan.
Then another thing:
Before Bush made his stupid "Axis of Evil" speach, there was a bitter inner political fighting in Iran, in which the mullahs were loosing power to more liberal and democratic powers.
But when Iran itself is threatened by foreign nations - and its not important if this is Iraq or the USA or Israel - the inner political fightings are stopped because of a possible foreign enemy.
So Bush was really succesful in stabilizing the mullah regime.
And so its not a surprise that last week the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran recommended that the US citizen should vote for Bush instead for Kerry.
Never before in its history Iran has recommended the USA who to vote.
I think that the mullahs wish that Israel or the USA would do an air/missile strike against the nuclear installations in Iran.
Because then they could say "look - they are hating us - we have to force our hard laws in order to protect iran from the iraqui or afghan fate"
And the mullahs also know that its very easy for them to replace attacked installations. They have the money and countries like Russia or China dont care about embargos - they will rebuild any damaged or destroyed installation if they get enough oil-money.
Also many european states will do so.
So any air strike would only help the mullahs.
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yeeeep true, nice post babek
but i wouldnt say that they fear Arabs....
Its more like with a Turks. They are convinced , that average Turkish is educateless donkey. I dont know if they fear them or not, but its true, that when i meet some Arabs in Persia, they were somehow marked as guests. Or when somebody introduced me iranian with arabic roots, they never ever forget to mention it :)
However you forget to say, that last Shah was supported by americans. But he were as inteligent as Saddam. Revollution in 80`s were not supposed to bring Islamic goverment. It were revolution to get rid of lobotomized Shah, who were consider to be US`s sheep.
Like vote for Kerry means No Bush anymore.
Religion party used(abused) situation and took power in that time.
However country is changing rapidly and life standart is growing.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
A civil discussion on weather or not you think israel will take preembtive action against Iran if they persue proliferation of Nuke weapons.
My opinion says, i dont wanna think about where this could lead,
the whole region is more explosive then TNT.
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...and you are assuming that Iran is completely stoopid, and keeps it's production medium in little wooden huts. Seeing what happened to their neighbours (yes, I think they do have access to television) they are likely to hide those. Bunker buster or not, will you take the chance to hit, and miss one or more location? Too dangerous.
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More hype aimed at whipping up fear of the Islamic bogeyman.
The Iranians aren't stupid enough to use a nuke aggressively, either against Israel or anyone else. They want them for the same reason every other nuclear power has them, for deterrence and as a guarantee of national independence.
The anti-zionist rhetoric that emanates from Tehran is no different to the utterances from clerics in Eqypt, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, yet the US sees fit to call these nations allies. Stupid "Axis of evil" pronouncements by Bush only serve to entrench the Iranian mullahs and roll back the creeping progress of liberalisation in the country.
They want nukes because Israel has them and because the USA has demonstrated its willingness to resort to military action in pursuit of replacing uncompliant regimes with compliant regardless of whether they are a threat or not.
Israel isn't scared about being nuked. They know, just as we know and the Iranians know, that any aggressive use of a nuclear weapon would be met by overwhelming retaliation by the USA and european powers. What scares Israel more is the consequent shift in the regional balance of power, skewed for so long in Israel's favour thanks to her unilateral nuclear capability. Israel could no longer act with impunity with relation to the Palestinian territories and would be forced to do something that they have successfully avoided for the last two decades, which is to negotiate in good faith with a view to ending the occupation of the west bank.
Hence the squawking from the pro-Israel neocons currently.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
...and you are assuming that Iran is completely stoopid, and keeps it's production medium in little wooden huts. Seeing what happened to their neighbours (yes, I think they do have access to television) they are likely to hide those. Bunker buster or not, will you take the chance to hit, and miss one or more location? Too dangerous.
baaaah ... dude i noted that you are not french... but according to colours in your sign, you must be german :D
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Israel just bought a cubic metric s**tload of bunker busters. I wonder what they are for?
I think what Holden really meant to say, was that American taxpayers bought Israel a chitload of bunker busters.
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Originally posted by Torque
I think what Holden really meant to say, was that American taxpayers bought Israel a chitload of bunker busters.
actualy who owen company who produce it or sell it to israel..... damm this world is sooo smalll :D
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Originally posted by lada
Wow ... realy ... thats odd.... non of my iranian friends around know anyhing about sutch goal.
However.... my Kurdish friend from Kermanshash, proud iranian, had very good relation ships with his jewish neigbour.... .
But you probably hear it on CNN, so its holy true..
Yeah ..... and every month there is many Tons of Drugs, whitch leave Iran trough Iraq or Azerbaijdzan...... I guess you probably belive that those drugs has been grow by Iranain goverment, to destroy Western youths ... right ?
And we better do not talk about Afghanistan and Russia. Coz average american is probably convinced, that there is not smugliing in Iran, they simply produce all those baaaad things to silently destroy you....... rofl
CNN?
no my friend- theres a "if israel does that and that we will destroy it bla bla bla" by some iranian official atleast once a month, i do hear on the news and i do belive what i hear, its not exactly the kind of stuff you make up...
as for the rest of your reply... sorry i completely lost you there,
:)
but you know what i have an idea.
lets Email iran's Foreign Ministry and ask them what is their official stand regarding israel
what do you say? :)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
A civil discussion on weather or not you think israel will take preembtive action against Iran if they persue proliferation of Nuke weapons.
My opinion says yes. They did it before with Iraq and Sadam, they will do it again. Israels neighbors are hell bent on destroying her, they would see this as in the best interest of national security.
The current admin will decry the action publicly but will probably be happy it got done and our hands are clean of it.
Isreal was more then willing to wack Saddam during Gulf War 1. Satellite pass's over their missile fields showed their silo's open which brought the US in - only reason they showed restraint was the PAC-2's they rolled in in defense of the Al husseins. But i'm sure if they had chem and not conventional warheads we wouldn't be speculating in this fourm.
Wolfala
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Originally posted by Staga
What happens when muslim radical goes to an elevator and presses the button?
Whole building goes down.
Staga is thus revealed as nothing more than a ****ing ticking timebomb bi-polar nerd with more accounts than a social life would permit, just waiting for the proper situation to explode. Everyone is missing "your point" because you can't form one properly. Listen, ok? Brush your hair off your entended forehead, whipe that sweat off your unibrow, and look
in the mirror. You're a mongoloid.
Wolfala
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but you know what i have an idea.
lets Email iran's Foreign Ministry and ask them what is their official stand regarding israel
what do you say?
info@iran-embassy.org.uk
This was the only one I could find in the time available. Maybe send them a link to this thread too ;)
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I hope you all realise that this whole "Ameristalker" labelling trend is just as retarded as Freedom Fries. Which is even more retarded than calling someone a liberal because it's viewed to be an insult by those throwing around the label.
So basically, any argument in which it is used becomes retarded - and so is the poster.
-SW
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Unfortunately,I think the threat of any mideastern country of using missles to deliver nukes is rather remote.
I say its unfortunate because I think the most likely way they would deliver them is by some sort of personal human delivery system. Such as the suicide bombers.
Then nations like Iran, can "officially" disavow any knowledge of it
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Staga is thus revealed as nothing more than a ****ing ticking timebomb bi-polar nerd with more accounts than a social life would permit, just waiting for the proper situation to explode. Everyone is missing "your point" because you can't form one properly. Listen, ok? Brush your hair off your entended forehead, whipe that sweat off your unibrow, and look
in the mirror. You're a mongoloid.
Wolfala
Are those the meaniest insults you could figure out? Oh well, have a nice day :)
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I'm with lada here.. Where are the 'official' quotes outta Iran declaring them calling for the fall or Isreal?? For the fall of America?
I figured there must be many, but i have yet to see any??
Personally I can't blame them if they were trying to get a a bomb..
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Wow way to have a discussion Lada,
About Iran having no history of attacking anyone is completly irrelevent.
Radicaly Fundamentalist Islam = Hate and wanten destruction of the jewish state What kind of Govt is in power right now in Iran? How you so easily want to right off any discussion of this a rhetoric because "your Iranian friends never talk about it" is about as dumb as your ramblings of how Iran is such a nation of peace and the US has attacked somone recently...therfore US = bad Iran = good.
PPPPPPLLLLLLLEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAS SSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEE!
This holier than thou attitude makes me sick from both sides. NO the US does not have it's hand's clean in the region but then again neither does Iran. Neocon....Liberal....amerista lker....to me they they are all haters....they are driven by their hate of what ever ideology they opposes this week and will side with/say anything in order to prove to themselves that the hate is still there.
It is a FACT that an Iranian Nuke is a threat to Israel. Whether they will use them preemtively is not in question.
It is a FACT that Israel veiws a fascist radical muslim country with nukes as a threat and HAS taken preemtive action in the past.
IF you cant add anything Usfull to this thread why post here?
EDIT: New subtopic. For those of you who think this is soley a US/Israli effort to keep Iran away from proliferation.......How can you justify this opinion when the fact is that this has been a UNITED NATIONS goal for quite sometime!
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Originally posted by Flyboy
but you know what i have an idea.
lets Email iran's Foreign Ministry and ask them what is their official stand regarding israel
what do you say? :)
that sounds good .. do it i will try to guess what will be answer...
"We do not respect,declare israel as Country"
But if im wrong and he will tell you that he wants to annihilate israel from the Map, feel free to post it.
ok and now tell me how is it realted to fact, that Ir authority never ever claimed, that they will or want to attack some other country ?
And please note, that im speaking about Gov... people like president and not some clerics.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Wow way to have a discussion Lada,
About Iran having no history of attacking anyone is completly irrelevent.
Radicaly Fundamentalist Islam = Hate and wanten destruction of the jewish state
yes
Originally posted by Gunslinger
What kind of Govt is in power right now in Iran?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/middle_east/2000/iran_elections/iran_struggle_for_change/who_holds_power/default.stm
How are they related to people who you spoke about ?
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Isreal was more then willing to wack Saddam during Gulf War 1. Satellite pass's over their missile fields showed their silo's open which brought the US in - only reason they showed restraint was the PAC-2's they rolled in in defense of the Al husseins. But i'm sure if they had chem and not conventional warheads we wouldn't be speculating in this fourm.
Wolfala
sorry ????
US stepin in a moment, when Iranian opened silo`s ?
Man .. you must be kidding.... Get some proper informations about the conflict.
Big hero of USA, Saddam Hussein, was officialy supported by USA. Mr. Rumsfeld was shaking hand with that brave fighter.
and Iran... Iran has been supported silently by USA. as well.
Its like joke that someone mentioned few pages back.... When 2 iraqi kill 1 iranain and get killed by other Iranian, USA lead 3:0
Did you ever ask your administration, why was both Iran and Iraq supported in war by USA?
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Originally posted by lada
sorry ????
US stepin in a moment, when Iranian opened silo`s ?
Isreal you dumb ****. Read the quote properly then spell check your flame mail.
Wolfala
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Isreal you dumb ****. Read the quote properly then spell check your flame mail.
Wolfala
ahh you are right, i trough you speak about Iq Ir war.
consider that post pointeless
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About Iran having no history of attacking anyone is completly irrelevent.
Really? Care to elaborate ?
You sound like a broken record; you're so filled with hatred and bigotry that I wonder where did you get your attitude...
btw Israel is a coutry having nuclear weapons and it's also practising apartheid, big part of people living there aren't allowed to vote etc; Wouldn't you think they're a bigger threat to the middle-east than Iran?
What are you going to do about it?
Oh well; in few decades israel is an islamistic state; little by little the Arabic part of the inhabitants grows bigger and a Jewish state (hopefully) turns to a democracy where every citizen has a right to vote :)
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Octardius WINS!
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Originally posted by Staga
Really? Care to elaborate ?
You sound like a broken record; you're so filled with hatred and bigotry that I wonder where did you get your attitude...
btw Israel is a coutry having nuclear weapons and it's also practising apartheid, big part of people living there aren't allowed to vote etc; Wouldn't you think they're a bigger threat to the middle-east than Iran?
What are you going to do about it?
Oh well; in few decades israel is an islamistic state; little by little the Arabic part of the inhabitants grows bigger and a Jewish state (hopefully) turns to a democracy where every citizen has a right to vote :)
The jews have really pulled off a feat with this one. Surrounded and outnumbered 25 to 1 by people that either openly or clandestinely hate them(mostly openly)--people, btw, who practice apathied against the women in their own families--and yet they're the biggest threat to the middle east.
Here's a question, my disjointed, safely-distant, all knowing, all-seeing, unbiased, elightened fair-skinned friend... What exactly does it mean to threaten the Middle East, anyway? Are the Israelis, by practicing the policies they practice, at risk of turning the region into an uncivilized, inhumane, disorganized tinderbox of hatred, violence and intolerance? I always thought they were trying to secure the survival and advancement for their people. If it takes systematic raids on Iran every Ramadan to assure that Israel will remain out of harms way for another year, it's more than justified.
The Israelis have been a nuclear power for decades. Not once have they misused, or even used, for that matter, this power--even at a time when Saddam was randomly lobbing scuds into Tel Aviv. Personally, I would not want to be the one to authorize the same experiment with Iran.
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uncivilized, inhumane, disorganized tinderbox of hatred, violence and intolerance
Oh I thought you were talking about Israel :)
btw using personal attacks kinda makes everything else you wrote worthless waste of webspace, try again but leave slanders away this time :)
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If the issue with Iran working to build nukes isnt resolved diplomatically I think Israel WILL launch a preemptive strike of some sort. Israel has a history of favoring the preemptive strike.
1967, the Six day war, Israel knows she is about to be attacked by multiple Arab countries including Egpyt and Syria, Israel launches a preemptive strike and secures the Sinai noodleula, Gaza Strip, West Bank and the Golan Heights in a mere 6 days.
1973, Yom Kippur War. Again, Israel knows she is about to be attacked but before a preemptive strike can be made the US gov't pressures Israel into NOT taking preemptive action. This (imo) leads to unnecessary casualties on both sides. With a preemptive strike the war would have been over in far less than the 30 or so days it did last.
1980's Saddam is working on nuclear weapons, Israel hits the reactor with F-16's.
If the diplomatic process fails, I think we can expect Israel to attack.
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Radicaly Fundamentalist Islam = Hate and wanten destruction of the jewish state
This is in part due to the fact that both the Jews and the Arabs consider Jerusalem to be a Holy City for their respective religions. The Arabs consider it an affront to have the Jews in possesion of one of their Holy Cities. Much like bin Laden considers it an affront to have American troops permanently stationed in Saudi Arabia, home of the 2 holiest cities to Islam.
Also, ever since the time of Abraham the Jews and Arabs have conflicted with each other. This conflict has been ongoing for thousands of years now. It's not likely to stop anytime soon imo.
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Originally posted by Staga
Oh I thought you were talking about Israel :)
btw using personal attacks kinda makes everything else you wrote worthless waste of webspace, try again but leave slanders away this time :)
Where did you see a personal attack, Staga? I think that you are a smug, amatuer armchair political theorist, nothing less, nothing more. Not a bad person by any stretch of the imagination, just a guy with some spare time and an itchy emoticon finger.
Being such, I doubt you're in any position to determine which posts are a waste of webspace and which are worthwhile. As I've said before, you represent a class of people that is in the enviable position of being able to criticize from afar without ever compromising your own situation. I have no disdain for you and I do not sink to the level of personal attacks because frankly, I don't care enough about your point of view to let it upset me for more than a moment or two. I simply stated what I believe in regards to you, as I do with most any topic. You can take it, or you can leave it.
As for Israel being whatever it is you think it is... I suggest you travel there, as a jew(yes, it changes things), and see it with your own eyes, at ground level. I've done it... If you have been there, and continue to believe what you believe, well then, I guess we can just amicably disagree on the topic.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Isreal you dumb ****. Read the quote properly then spell check your flame mail.
Wolfala
Lada's reading comprehension falls in between an autistic gopher and a concrete slab, edging more towards the concrete with each reply.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Staga
Oh I thought you were talking about Israel :)
btw using personal attacks kinda makes everything else you wrote worthless waste of webspace, try again but leave slanders away this time :)
It's not slander if it's true and an established fact.... Moreover, it's not slander if it's written. That's libel. However, it's not libel if it's true and an established fact.
Are you following this?
My regards,
Widewing
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Too many Martinis...
IMHO Israel and Palestine should be wiped out from the earth; Without those people middle-east would be much safer place and in long run whole world would be safer for all of us :)
So nuke Israel, Kill every Jewish, Islamic and Christian people in there, Nuke Gaza and Golan heights, Kill every frigging bigot over there.
It's better to have a big bang than listen news from that part of world year after yeart after year... Send all those *****g stupid idiots to their gods; they want to get there so why not help them?
btw is there anyone who says Israel isn't practising apartheid?
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Originally posted by Widewing
Lada's reading comprehension falls in between an autistic gopher and a concrete slab, edging more towards the concrete with each reply.
My regards,
Widewing
wow .. ok im idiot, coz i missunderstand one post....
So show me how excelent guy you are and post some links, where Iranian Goverment officialy claim that they want to destroy israel or attack any other country.
So you can be hero of our discusion.
thx.
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TEHRAN, 28 May, 2004 (IPS) The new Iranian Majles, or Parliament, dominated by the conservatives and independent deputies was officially inaugurated on Thursday with shouts of “death to America”, making the usually austere ceremonies the first ever highly politicised one.
the full article (http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2004/may/seventh_majles_28504.shtml)
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Octardius WINS!
yaaaaaaaaaay
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there has been new progress regarding this theme.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3981307.stm
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=11/6/2004&Cat=2&Num=004
i guess my prediction were closer to what happen ;)
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
the full article (http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2004/may/seventh_majles_28504.shtml)
keep your pseudo Iranian news, whitch are released at Florida :D