Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Guppy35 on October 27, 2004, 12:44:19 PM
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Dehaviland Hornet. Talk about a beautiful aircraft.
http://www.dhhornet50.net/
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1098898796_horncov.jpg)
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I clicked on the thread with the full expectation of seeing some other super-duper plane, and responding "Not until after we get the dH Hornet."
Lovely.
Dan, I second, third, etc. the motion, double stamped it no erasies.
Cheers,
Scherf
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Awesome plane, shame it was too late for wwii :(
Fastest piston aircraft ever to serve with the RAF i think.
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Hello my dear gentlemen.
In the back of my head, I have the memory of Hornets being ready for war somewhere in the Pacific, summer 1945.
Am I correct there, or did I mix up years or something?
Absolutely best regards to you gents.
Angus
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http://www.vflintham.demon.co.uk/aircraft/hornet/hornet.htm
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Mossie on steroids. It'd eat an F7F Tigercat for lunch.
Unfortunately it missed the war so i don't think it would be a suitable addition for AH.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Mossie on steroids. It'd eat an F7F Tigercat for lunch.
Unfortunately it missed the war so i don't think it would be a suitable addition for AH.
I'll disagree. There never existed a piston-engine fighter that could "eat the F7F Tigercat for lunch". Pilots who flew both the F8F-1 and F7F-3 have stated that the F7F climbed faster, accelerated faster and turned remarkably well.
Let's look at the F7F-3, similar vintage to the Hornet F Mk.3 (the model in Guppy's photo).
Max level speed: 460 mph at 21,900 ft. (Angelucci and Bowers. Grumman claims 465 mph at 22,700 ft)
Climb in WEP power: 4,550 fpm (Angelucci and Bowers)
Climb in WEP power: 5,130 fpm (Grumman)
Normal takeoff weight (full internal gas and ammo): 21,906 lbs.
Wing area: 455 sq/ft.
Wing loading at normal takeoff weight: 48.14 lbs per sq/ft.
Total HP: 4,200 hp
Hornet-
Max level speed: 472 mph at 22,000 ft.
Climb in WEP: 4,650 fpm (Green and Swanborough)
Normal takeoff weight: 21,060 lbs
Wing area: 361 sq/ft
Wing loading at normal takeoff weight: 58.33 lbs per sq/ft.
Total HP: 4,140 hp
If I were in the Hornet, I'd avoid dogfighting with the far more agile Tigercat. It's 12 mph speed advantage increases to 28 mph at sea level. It can run away if it starts out as fast or faster. However, it can't climb away or engage in a turning fight... Better stay fast.
If you want a more logical comparison, put the Sea Hornet Mk.21 up against the F7F-3. The Sea Hornet is 42 mph slower that the Hornet F Mk.3 and surrenders nearly 300 fpm in climb. Both the Mk.21 and F7F-3 are post-war twin-engine carrier fighters. Even if we match up the F7F-3N (twin seater) and the Sea Hornet Mk.21, the Tigercat has an edge in performance.
A post-war plan to re-engine the F7F with C-series R2800s was canceled before the engines were delivered. Meyer figured that a total of 5,600 hp would have produced a max speed of 485 mph and a climb rate of 5,500 fpm or better. However, this was still inferior to the XF9F.
Bottom line: Both are extremely capable fighter-bombers. Absolute speed goes to the Hornet. But, the F7F is a more capable dogfighter. Both have four Hispanos cannon. But the F7F adds four additional .50 caliber MGs to the equation. This is like the P-51D vs P-38L comparison in AH2. The Mustang cannot afford to dogfight the P-38. It can't climb away either. It must rely on speed to get an advantage. However, a good P-38 pilot can offset that advantage. Just like the P-51 vs the P-38, neither will eat the other for lunch. It will all come down to who makes the big mistake first.
My regards,
Widewing
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Hornet-
Max level speed: 472 mph at 22,000 ft.
Climb in WEP: 4,650 fpm (Green and Swanborough)
Normal takeoff weight: 21,060 lbs
Wing area: 361 sq/ft
Wing loading at normal takeoff weight: 58.33 lbs per sq/ft.
Total HP: 4,140 hp
Some of those figures look a bit suspect.
The Hornet I had a climb rate of 5450 ft/min. The Hornet 3 added 180 gallons of fuel, so should be worse, but should still be around 5000 ft/min
The wing loading and weight seems to be for maximum takeoff with external stores.
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Not sure about that. Hornet F Mk 3 was about 3500 lbs lighter than F7F-3 when both empty, and about 5000 lbs lighter at max take-off weight, which is kinda logical since Hornet is smaller aircraft.
That would mean they both had similar wingloading, with Hornet having better power to weight ratio.
I would say they were good match and would come down to the pilot.
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Another item of interest will be construction qualities of the two aircraft. The tiger cat's construction being Grumman and very stout. The Dehavailand's is?
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Another item of interest will be construction qualities of the two aircraft. The tiger cat's construction being Grumman and very stout. The Dehavailand's is?
well it comes from a good pedigree, mossie had lowest loss rate of any wwii allied combat aircraft didnt it?
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Another item of interest will be construction qualities of the two aircraft. The tiger cat's construction being Grumman and very stout. The Dehavailand's is?
de Haviland's was good too. The Mossie had a reputation for being very durable.
That said, I don't think it matters for either as the looser of the manuvering contest is going to be eating quad 20mm cannons and that, more or less, makes any fighter's durability a moot point.
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I've seen a Tigercat flying close formation with F8F's.
What a beauty.
I'd almost sell an organ to see the Hornet purring by.....
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The F7F was operational in April 1944, simply wasnt delployed so it was a year+ ahead of the hornet...the F7F isnt a post WW2 plane...
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I've seen a few F7F's for sale for 750,000 US. Its a steal compared to any warbird of its pedigree.
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double stamped it no erasies
:rofl
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I would assume the guns are in the nose, yet I don't see any in this picture... Is that still correct?
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Belly, same location as the 20s on the Mossie and P61 and Beaufighter
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Originally posted by Wolfala
I've seen a few F7F's for sale for 750,000 US. Its a steal compared to any warbird of its pedigree.
Look into the maintenance costs some time...
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History: In early 1941, Grumman began design-work on a new twin-engined fighter for the War Department, for use on a planned larger Midway-class aircraft carrier. On June 30, 1941, Grumman was awarded a contract to build two prototypes, the first of which flew in December 1943. The XF7F-1 Tigercat was unusual for a fighter, with its shoulder-mounted wings, twin underwing-mounted engines, all-metal construction and tricycle landing gear.
Before the prototype even flew for the first time, Grumman was contracted to build 500 of them for the US Marine Corps, to be used as close-support aircraft for the massive landing operations then underway in the Pacific. Delivery began in April 1944. The first 34 F7F-1s were similar to the prototypes, then 30 two-seat night-fighter variants (called F7F-2Ns) were produced. Next, 189 single-seat models called F7F-3s were built which featured slightly more powerful R-2800 engines, slightly larger vertical stabilizers, and a 7% increase in fuel capacity.
Much of the original order for Tigercats was cancelled after VJ-Day, and they never saw operational service in WWII. Less than 100 Tigercats were built after the war as night-fighters (F7F-3N and F7F-4N), electronic reconnaissance (F7F-3E) and photo-reconnaissance (F7F-3P) platforms, but higher-performance jet-powered airplanes soon replaced the Tigercat in the US Marine Corps. During the 1960s and 1970s, a few were gradually sold as surplus and converted to fire bombers or aerial photography ships.
Nicknames: T-Cat
Specifications (F7F-3):
Engines: Two 2,100hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800-34W Double Wasp 18-cylinder radial piston engines
Weight: Empty 16,270 lbs., Max Takeoff 25,720 lbs.
Wing Span: 51ft. 6in.
Length: 45ft. 4.5in.
Height: 16ft. 7in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed at 22,200 ft: 435 mph Cruising Speed at 5,000 ft: 222 mph
Initial Climb Rate: 4,500 feet per minute
Ceiling: 40,700 ft.
Range: 1,200 miles
Armament:
Four 20mm (0.79-inch) cannon in wing roots
Four 12.7mm (0.5-inch) machine guns in nose
One torpedo under fuselage
2,000 lbs. of bombs (1,000 lbs. under each wing)
Number Built: 364
Number Still Airworthy: 6
Links:
AeroWeb Tigercat Page
Photovault F7F Tigercat Photo Page