Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: MOSQ on October 27, 2004, 06:47:46 PM
-
Excerpts From:http://federalistpatriot.us/alexander/edition.asp?id=279 (http://federalistpatriot.us/alexander/edition.asp?id=279)
"...Kerry has consistently refused to sign a Standard Form 180 authorizing the Department of Defense to release all of his records....
For his part, Kerry claims he received an "Honorable Discharge" and that all his records have been released and are posted on his website, Kerry-04.com -- uh, make that JohnKerry.com. But Kerry has refused to say when he received an Honorable Discharge. Indeed, some of his military records are posted on his site -- but not all of them. Here, an experienced eye can read enough into what has been released by Kerry to develop a good profile of what hasn't been released.
It is our considered opinion, therefore, that John Kerry was separated from the military under a less than honorable discharge.
Among Kerry's released records is a 1977 cover letter from Jimmy Carter's Navy Secretary, W. Graham Claytor. What is revealing about this document is that it notes Kerry's original discharge was subject to review by a "board of officers" -- yet no such review should be necessary for an Honorable Discharge.
The review was conducted in accordance with "Title 10, U.S. Code Section 1162 and 1163," which pertains to grounds for involuntary separation from military service.
As many Vietnam veterans who served their nation with dignity and honor will recall, Jimmy Carter's first official act as president was the signing of Executive Order 4483 --less than an hour after his inauguration on 21 January 1977. EO 4483 provided general amnesty for draft evaders, war protesters and other offenders of that era. Its corresponding, and equally dubious, DoD directive took effect in March of 1977, expanding that amnesty to include separation from military service by other than honorable discharges. The DoD specified an appeal procedure whereby discharges could be reviewed on an individual basis to determine whether the status of a particular discharge could be revised.
Having lost his first bid for Congress, Kerry no doubt decided that his political future would be brighter as a war hero rather than a war protestor. While there are several categories of discharges beneath honorable, including general, medical, bad conduct and other than honorable, it is very likely that Kerry's discharge was dishonorable.
Supporting this assertion is the fact that Kerry had all his medals mysteriously reinstated in 1985. He claims that he lost his medal certificates (perhaps these are what he famously threw over that Capitol fence in protest), but when a military officer is subject to a Dishonorable Discharge, in addition to the loss of pay benefits and allowances, all medals and honors are revoked. In any case, it would be a cinch for John Kerry to refute our claim by simply signing that Standard Form 180. But he won't. Nor will hard-hitting journalists like Katie Couric and Dr. Phil press him on this issue.
Thus, while Kerry can correctly say -- thanks to Jimmy Carter -- that he received an Honorable Discharge, he could also say with equal precision that he received "other than honorable discharge." His activities as a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War were, indeed, forgiven by Carter's EO 4483 and the subsequent DoD directive.
However, according to legal scholars, John Kerry's meetings with enemy agents from Communist North Vietnam on multiple occasions between 1970 and 1972 are not covered under EO 4483. For that reason, we delivered to U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft on Monday of this week a "Petition for Investigation and Indictment," calling on the Department of Justice to determine conclusively whether Kerry's actions, in direct violation of UCMJ (Article 104 part 904), U.S. Code (18 USC Sec. 2381 and 18 USC Sec. 953) and other applicable laws and acts of Congress, constitute treason. (To read the text of the petitioners' request, go to http://patriotpetitions.us/kerry/letter.asp )
Why prosecute Kerry now?
In October, 2003, Mr. Kerry chose to make his disputed Vietnam War record the centerpiece of his campaign for the presidency. In response, the more than 180,000 signatories of the above-referenced petition chose to make Mr. Kerry's war record the centerpiece of their campaign to determine whether his actions are subject to the Constitution's Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3.
The pertinent language states: "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President ... having previously taken an oath ... to support the Constitution of the United States, [who has] engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
While it is clear that no action will be taken on the petitioners' request prior to 2 November, we remain committed to holding Senator Kerry accountable for his actions regardless of the outcome of his presidential bid. Indeed, we are all committed to serving Kerry with an irrevocable dishonorable discharge from public office.
-
Kerry's trial should be right after Bush's AWOL and failure to obey a direct order trial.
-
Originally posted by rpm
Kerry's trial should be right after Bush's AWOL and failure to obey a direct order trial.
Kerry has already had his hearings, he just won't release them to the country he wants to be president of.
-
Well there's a good example of media bias:lol Highly implausible and no evidence whatsoever but a rattling good yarn. You know, Kerry would have been better off it he had dodged the war like one or two others
-
This...this is the best you can come up with?
-
John Kerry saved a man's life, shot and killed a Vietcong, and did not lose any crew members.
Would not surprise me one bit if the military gave him a dishonorable discharge.
-
Yeah, good for Kerry and a big
to him for that.
However, he then went on to meet with the North Vietnamese illegally ( twice) and also lied about war atrocities he said he witnessed in VN.
Kerry also admitted he that he commited war atrocities himself.
-
he's a WAR HERO!!!
"REPORTING FOR DUTY!!!"
LOL LOL LOL
-
Originally posted by cpxxx
Well there's a good example of media bias:lol Highly implausible and no evidence whatsoever but a rattling good yarn. You know, Kerry would have been better off it he had dodged the war like one or two others
bill clinton comes to mind:aok
-
Originally posted by JBA
bill clinton comes to mind:aok
And Dick Cheney.
-
Hey all.
I just went on the Kerry web site. His DD-214 is there and says he did get an honorable discharge. Why don't you guys do a little more reaserach FIRST!
I'm voting for Bush and you're making us look bad.
Thanks for nothing.
-
Kerry is a self-grandizing, self-centered condescending slime bag, that is by now pretty well proven and accepted. Whats the point?
dago
-
DD 214 is not a form-it's your entire record of service, which is what Kerry refuses to release
-
Originally posted by cpxxx
Well there's a good example of media bias:lol Highly implausible and no evidence whatsoever but a rattling good yarn. You know, Kerry would have been better off it he had dodged the war like one or two others
All he has to do is sign that little old form 180
Looks like he's hiding some dirt to me, but then I always knew he was a traitor
-
Originally posted by rpm
Kerry's trial should be right after Bush's AWOL and failure to obey a direct order trial.
Ya know, thats funny, Bush signed his 180, Kerry won't
That does'nt ring any alarm bells in your head ?
-
LOL, he can't hear any alarm bells in his head because of the voices, the voices whispering "Bush bad, Kerry good, Bush bad, Kerry good" :D
dago
-
Originally posted by Flit
DD 214 is not a form-it's your entire record of service, which is what Kerry refuses to release
That's odd, my DD 214 is a form.
:confused:
-Sik
-
Originally posted by Sikboy
That's odd, my DD 214 is a form.
:confused:
-Sik
I stand corrected
Got it mixed up with 201 file maybe?
-
Originally posted by Phaser11
Hey all.
I just went on the Kerry web site. His DD-214 is there and says he did get an honorable discharge. Why don't you guys do a little more reaserach FIRST!
I'm voting for Bush and you're making us look bad.
Thanks for nothing.
Phaser, if you had read the article closely you would have seen that Kerry now has an Honorable Discharge. The question is did he originally have a Dishonorable Discharge and loss of his medals, then much later after Carter signed the executive order, petitioned to have his discharge reviewed and subsequently changed to Honorable and have his medals reinstated.
If he would sign the form 180 either the Federalist will look like a fool, or Kerry will be disgraced.
Why won't he sign the form 180? Bush did.
And the larger issue:
Constitution's Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3.
The pertinent language states: "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President ... having previously taken an oath ... to support the Constitution of the United States, [who has] engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
I can see a constitutional crisis looming. The right wing will press this issue to the hilt. How would this be resolved? Are we looking at another impeachment process?
-
Check the dates on the DD214 on Kerry's website.
The "Transfer or Discharge Data" block shows the date as 15 Dec 66. It's his discharge from U.S. Naval Officer Candidate School, not his final discharge from the USN.
You guys need to read this stuff a little closer.
It does say that "No Discharge Certificate Issued at time of Separation" and "Continuing on Active Duty as Ensign, USNR".
So, Kerry posted what is, IMO, a very misleading DD214. I think he should just sign the form for the FULL RELEASE of his records.
There IS, however, a DD215 that corrects his date of separation from active duty to 03-01-70. It also corrects some awards. Interestingly, this DD215 is dated 2001/03/12. Makes me wonder WHY anyone would bother correcting his Reserve separation date 30 years later. If anything stinks of dead fish in all this... this is the first whiff.
But his records ALSO show a letter of Honorable Discharge from the Reserves on Feb 16, 1978. I'd think it would be hard to get an Honorable from the Reserves without getting about the same from active duty.
-
I don't give a rat's bellybutton about Kerry's or Bush's war record(s). Kerry's Congressional voting record, alone, is enough for me to vote for Bush.
-
OH!
Does that meen he will go away now? :p
-
Your DD214 shows your last discharge status. "Other than honorable" can be changed to "honorable" over time and it will not show up on a DD214. That is... you can be discharged under "other than honorable" and have that status changed some time down the road to "honorable" by filing a request... which is almost automatically granted. The "honorable" status doesn't really mean squat unless it was granted at the separation date.
-
But...but!
See the press *demanded* Bush documents and got em. He's also released his financial data too.
Kerry hasnt opened up his "proud" military history nor has he fully released his financial data, nor his sugar momma, err, wife :)
I've also heard that thanks to the Carter administration, Kerry probably got his medals and such back due to the pardon. Im not certain but some of the articles Ive read would *indicate* his short tenure may not have been quite as gallant as he paints the picture.
Im just curious who put him in for those Purple Hearts. Himself? If he opened his records, we'd know and could put that issue to rest
-
Originally posted by slimm50
I don't give a rat's bellybutton about Kerry's or Bush's war record(s). Kerry's Congressional voting record, alone, is enough for me to vote for Bush.
Im guessing you have never really read the congressional records pertaining to Kerry and say, Cheneys voting records?And I dont mean the cherry picking version from Sean Hannity :)
-
Originally posted by Phaser11
Hey all.
I just went on the Kerry web site. His DD-214 is there and says he did get an honorable discharge. Why don't you guys do a little more reaserach FIRST!
I'm voting for Bush and you're making us look bad.
Thanks for nothing.
damm good point.
-
Kerry also admitted he that he commited war atrocities himself.
Yes, using .50 cal weapons, engaging in the free fire zone, and calling artillery in on a village. If these are war crimes, about 500,000 other vietnam vets are guilty too.
-
Originally posted by WhiteHawk
damm good point.
No, it's a foolish point.
Again:
Check the dates on the DD214 on Kerry's website.
The "Transfer or Discharge Data" block shows the date as 15 Dec 66. It's his discharge from U.S. Naval Officer Candidate School, not his final discharge from the USN.
You guys need to read this stuff a little closer.
It does say that "No Discharge Certificate Issued at time of Separation" and "Continuing on Active Duty as Ensign, USNR".
It's his discharge from "90 day wonder" officer's school, not his discharge from the Navy after VietNam.
-
Either way, if he went to Paris and talked to the NVA, He's guilty of treason and aiding the enemy
He should'nt even be holding public office
-
Originally posted by Flit
Either way, if he went to Paris and talked to the NVA, He's guilty of treason and aiding the enemy
He should'nt even be holding public office
That's my biggest concern. This is not going away. If Kerry loses, it will be a minor tiff in history as it gets worked out as to whether he can continue in the Senate.
If he wins the presidential election and this issue continues, it will cause a Constitutional Crisis.
Article XIV: Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
You may interpret this clause a couple of different ways. It would seem that for a Senator to be in violation you would have to have sworn to support the Constitution, ("having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress") then later given aid and comfort to the enemy.
So Kerry could be OK there, no one claims he's done that since winning any elections.
However, "or as an officer of the United States" I have to assume includes officers in the US Navy. Or does it? If it does, then we could be looking at a trial? Note the 2/3 vote in Congress is not to impeach the "suspect", but to remove the "disability" of not being able to hold public office. So then who decides if Kerry can hold public office, a Federal court, with a right to a jury trial? Could a President be removed by a Federal Court, without ever having been impeached and tried in Congress?
What a mess this could be. I hope it's just an academic exercise, otherwise the country will be bogged down for months or years on it.