Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ramzey on October 28, 2004, 01:27:21 AM
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Just courious
why CV can be sink by single strafing bf110 , no bombs
just gunfire?
thats kind a weird for carrier to be sunk by 20-30 mm rounds
ramzey
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lol..I thought it was easy when shooting it down with my baby N1K. But, it was most likely really soft from other players bomb hits, and you finished the job.
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I just did some testing offline with a 110 (4 20mm [1150 round] & 2 30mm [255 rounds])
I can kill a CA in 1 pass taking less than 206 20mm & 88 30mm
I can kill a CV in 4 passes taking less than 924 20mm + 255 30mm, this means that just 4 110s can take 1 pass each and kill it. They would proburly have enough spare ammo to kill the CA aswell.
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You realize how damaging 4x924 20mm's are? Added onto that 4x255 30mm's are?
However, I agree that this shouldn't sink a CV. But, I would like to make it cease all operations. A CV that just got strafed by 4 110's won't be sinking, but it sure as hell won't be launching planes.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
You realize how damaging 4x924 20mm's are? Added onto that 4x255 30mm's are?
However, I agree that this shouldn't sink a CV. But, I would like to make it cease all operations. A CV that just got strafed by 4 110's won't be sinking, but it sure as hell won't be launching planes.
Do you realize how hard Carriers were to sink? There was a post about this in the general AH forum, someone posted just what it took to sink a carrier.
With that said, no capital ship should be sank merely by strafing with aircraft guns. Capital ships were just to big and aircraft guns alone would not have been able to sink them.
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Read much? Did I anywhere in that single post say that 110's should be able to sink a carrier...
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
You realize how damaging 4x924 20mm's are? Added onto that 4x255 30mm's are?
Yeah, enough to kill 4 CVs, and possibly 4 CAs
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I meant outside of this game.
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30mm would only leave scratches on the hull of even a small ship. The scratches would lead to corosion which would slowly, but surely, lead to the sinking of the ship.
Bozon
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Said it once, I'll say it again...
Ships need their own armor model ala Gv armor modeling to be realistic. Currently a single P-38 can de-ack half the fleet in two firing passes, and a Bf-110G packing spud guns and bombs can sink any ship in one pass. It's a serious oversight that's never been tackled, though I suspect 2.01 will at least address the AA guns on ships being made of balsa wood.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
(http://www.wa-net.com/~delta6/sig/page25.gif)
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I dont think u realize how much dammage 30mills would do to a ship yet alone 4 more 20 mils. 30mils would burn a hole in a ship, maybe from the side but shurly from the top. 30 is a small cannon not a mg. Concentrated 30mils would sure as heck almost completly cripple a cv. IMHO....
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and as for a "small ship" same, if not more effective.
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Unless it hit a fueled up or bombed up plane or planes the full broadside of a 110 would not do anything but kill exposed crew members and break windows.
You could as easly say that sprinkling small grenades over the lenght of a carrier would destroy it.
If it was so easy to kill capital ships then the outcome of ww2 would have been signifigantly different, the weapons developed would have been signifiganlty different.
Weapons made to hurt aircraft covered with only 5mm aluminum over most of thier airframes will not hurt ships covered with 15mm of steel over even their weakest points.
15mm of steel would be considered an exceptional level of protection on an aircraft. On a ship it doenst even count as armour.
And strafing down the length of a cv deck will kill almost no gun crews. the gun crews are below the flight deck level in metal gun pits.
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i may be wrong.. but wasn't the essex class cv's deck made of wood?
I remember reading that during the kamikaze attacks, the US Navy cv's suffered badly because of their wooden decks, the kamikaze aircraft would smash straight through into the lower levels. Whereas the British armoured flight decks would simply bounce the kamikaze off, bit of sweeping up and were still operational.
My point being.. wooden deck + 20mm + 30mm = bad!
may not sink a ship but would make for some nasty splinters.
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Well, the 110 has cannons, but they ain't GAU-8 30MM cannons, meaning they won't cut armored ships to pieces.
They might rip up the wooden decks of warships, but they ain't gonna sink them or put them out of action, with the exception of POSSIBLY tearing up the flight deck on a CV, but to do that you'd have to be in harms way a long time to put enough ammo on the deck to hurt it. With AA guns on you at close range and you trying to concentrate on the deck to tear it up, you'd likely last about 15 seconds.
Were you able to catch planes on the flight deck en masse and set them on fire, you might set a CV on fire and knock it out.
There's no way that strafing with a couple of 110's is going to knock out all the AA guns, much less sink warships. The proper use for planes like the 110 against shipping is supply ships. Unless you want to bring large bombs.
On the other hand a 1K# bomb in the right place will knock a CV out of action. Put one or two on the flight deck and it won't be launching or landing planes for a while, the deck will be wrecked, and the hangar deck and other areas may be on fire for a long time. Not to mention that you might be able to blow the elevators out of the wells.
Fire was the main enemy of the CV, they were tall enough that a bomb would be hard pressed to pierce its way through the keel. Torpedoes on the other hand are a different story. But surviving a torpedo run long enough to get hits on a CV is tough. Perhaps it would be possible to have torpedo bomber formations, so that two or three people could put 6-9 torpedo bombers into play against a CV.
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Unless it hit a fueled up or bombed up plane or planes the full broadside of a 110 would not do anything but kill exposed crew members and break windows.
hmm, well a 30 mil is about and 1 1/4 of an inch, i think it would do more then just break windows. And it probably would easily disable those "armored guns" IMO. But ya I agree that killing a cv broad side would take more then that......
However about 110s they were first designed for fighters, but soon the LW used them as an attack plane. Realizing is was to big and slow for that purpose.The ju88s and other light/medium bombers were used to kill shipping.
Now, if we had ju88s with the "big daddy cannon" ...... O the mayham!
:lol :aok
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Originally posted by Furball
i may be wrong.. but wasn't the essex class cv's deck made of wood?
I remember reading that during the kamikaze attacks, the US Navy cv's suffered badly because of their wooden decks, the kamikaze aircraft would smash straight through into the lower levels. Whereas the British armoured flight decks would simply bounce the kamikaze off, bit of sweeping up and were still operational.
My point being.. wooden deck + 20mm + 30mm = bad!
may not sink a ship but would make for some nasty splinters.
You are correct about the wooden deck, furball. But let's remember that NO Essex class carrier was sunk during WW2, but one Independence Class CVL was sunk--the USS Princeton. The Independence class CVLs were armored to the same standard as the heavy cruiser design they came from--with deck and side armor--while the Essex class had no armor. Princeton was sunk by friendly destroyers after a massive fire caused by a single 500 pound bomb.
One of the navy's truisms: Ships are sunk by making holes that let water in, not by holes that let air in. In the game they model ship damage as best they can, but in reality most CVs (not CVEs, those are an aberration) sunk during WW2 were sunk by FRIENDLY torpedos after damage control efforts were unable to put out the fires.
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while the Essex class had no armor
I think you are wrong here, the hanger deck was armored and I am fairly sure they had an armor belt.
I will have to check.
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Originally posted by JB14
hmm, well a 30 mil is about and 1 1/4 of an inch, i think it would do more then just break windows. And it probably would easily disable those "armored guns" IMO.
Your opinion is 100% wrong. The 30mm guns on the 110 were designed for AA use and had little to no armor piercing capability.
When fired at thin aircraft skins, the shell usually penetrated before it detonated.
When fired at an aromored plate (which is the majority of most exposed parts of naval warships) there would be no penatration and the detonation would occur on the surface causing powder burns at best. Even if you were to hit the exact same point with 20 rounds at the firing rate of the cannon, the the only thing that would happen is that the armor would be really hot.
CVs probably need a more detailed damage model than they currently have, but at the very least non-armor piercing rounds should do 0 damage to it.
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Even if the wooden CV decks were suseptiple to taking damage form 30mm cannon rounds, I don't think the Destroyers or Cruisers would be all that effected.
In fact, I'm hopeing that someday we can have AP bombs as well as HE bombs. I often think about the Midway Paradox that the Japanese faced, which likely cost them the battle: Do you load HE bombs to attack the "soft" targets on land? Or do you load AP bombs to hit the "hard" targets (The US Fleet). In Aces High we never have to make that choice, because Ships react to bombs in the same manner as any other object.
Hopefully the addition of Armor to the Gun turrets will be one of a few new additions to the Ship damage model. I know that the focus of AH is on the air war, but as a Pacific War fiend, I can't seperate the Naval and Air Aspects very easily.
-Sik
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LOL, regardless of CV armor etc, do you know how hard it was for fighters/bombers to make it through the AA and flack barrage.
Very few attacks even made it close let alone hit it.
But as far as game play goes CV are way to soft! CVs account for some of the best action and on some maps they account for the only action.
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HT has fixed easy cv kills now,lucky to get one battery with a pass by a 110