Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: terracota on July 19, 2000, 10:47:00 AM
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Any expert p-51 driver there can share at least 1 of his evil tricks and tips with me ?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
please not the very now tips like :never flat turn, etc. bla,bla.
some hidden trick you discovered maybe a maneuver or something like that?
AMMO somebody said to me that you are one of the finest p-51 drivers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif), you have some evil tip to mee
ok thank's to all
if you dont want to share your tip I will buy it to you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) just tell me how much it cost, of course I will pay you with virtual money like t$3.00 (thank'$) or thank's thank's and thank's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Heres a trick fer ya:
Leave it in the hanger. P51 is anemic in AH and has a stubborn habbit of shedding wings far more commonly than any other type.
Yeager
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/yeager.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-19-2000).]
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Wow, someone lied to you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Well, if there was some advice I would give it would be this--
1) never take off when there are enemy around, always from a field away from the action. Get used to the long climbouts. Climb to at least 26K. The 51 is at its best at that altitude.
2) Be picky about your battles, dont dive into huge furballs, take the ones on the outskirts. If you must dive into the furball, get out as quickly as you came in.
3) Stay fast! I dont "saddle up" on cons when in the pony. I make good passes at them then cash my speed back into altitude. Always strive to be higher than your enemy.
4) when in trouble dont be embarrased about running, just do it. the pony's speed is its biggest advantage so use it. extend to a safe distance then reengage the con.
there are several REAL good pony pilots, maybe they will chime in with there thoughts.
If you wouldlike, I would be happy to get with youi in the TA and show some manuevers.
Email me and we can set it up.
ammo
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Thats my point ammo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
All good conservative tips BTW just ashame to see the premier allied fighter of WW2 relegated to feeding on the leftovers and otherwise using its *only* admirable quality in AH, speed.
Yeager
I used to fly the P51D in AH exclusively. All beta tours up to tour 4. Especially troubling is the total lack of even half assed performance above 23k. Did I mention the ease with which the pony jettisons its wings? *IMO* Its totally whacked out from the historical record.
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/yeager.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-19-2000).]
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obviously as you can see some people don't care for the 51.However it is one of the airplanes that i fly.Some rules that i live by never let the speed bleed below 200 and when i zoom in on a enemy i will drop 10 flap for a little more control don't forget to retract them when zooming back up.If i am one v one and i saddle up then i go 20 flap and the plane will turn better but keep an eye out for cons because when you saddle up you are open to other enemies.Always pick your fights and fight them on your terms. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The pony is definetly an plane meant to be on the offensive. It is great when you have the fight on your terms and is severly handi-capped when forced into situations of being at an E disadvantage. The best tactic is to fight on your terms only. The 51 is really good if in a somewhat restricted way. At high speeds especially in dives I will pull out using only my trim tabs, seems to help keep the wings on. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I've been told you can turn with some oponents if you're plane is light enough and you can keep your speed up, but only for a couple passes after that it's time to roll out and bugger off, come back later you have the gas for it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~kalger/sig.gif)
"Smoke me a kipper boys, I'll be back for breakfast"
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 07-19-2000).]
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Sadly, there are no "evil pony" tricks (least that I've found). Ammo's real message is pretty simple...take the high ground...or run.
Now going beyond that is truely an iffy thing...but here are a couple of things to try. The pony is a good turning plane...when FAST. Now if you are engaged with a plane that has a slower top end by a nice margin(spit,nikki,zero), you can use that to your advantage. On merge extend thru..horizontally and watch bogie closely...if he goes for seperation and lead turn...start a gentle turn AWAY from his turn..unless he purely vertical you'll see which way to go. Keep your G's LOW...2.5 max and your speed up...never get below 300 if you can help it. Now if the con is pulling hard to gain angles at high speed he's really bleeding E...if he's "lagging" you (not gaining angles) level wings and run. Now if he's gaining hard he should be burning E...go into a quick dive and low G zoom...if you do it right you'll top con out 1.2 to 1.5 under you. It wont work with G10 or 38 and is iffy against other planes with high potential E like the 205...but is a sweet trick to use on over aggressive spits nikki's etc.
[This message has been edited by humble (edited 07-19-2000).]
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Also the P51 has awesome hanlding with the combat flaps deployed -> *warning* Useage of flaps in a dogfight is pretty much a lst ditch effort when there are other cons around because then you're too slow already.
This is true for all US planes in AH:
P51, P47, P38 and F4U
I use 1st Flap setting when coming over the top of a loop or immelmann and in nose low scissors -> don't forget to retract them when you don't need them tho as they'll decrease your acceleration significantly!
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uff thank's good trick's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
and ammo sure I will drop ya a nota to see if we can meet this weekend, american time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
just 1 quiestion:
you guys said never drop spped under 250-300 this is true in a zoom too?
if I start the immelman before 300 I will be fast but not higher than the enemy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
so what's the trick? or only in zoom I shpuld drop speed under that to gain more alt?
thank's to all for the replies
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That's what a Zoom climb is for terracotta (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Yeager, you are one good P-51 pilot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Does Hangtime know how you feel about the pony? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
well, I dont know what it did in real life so I cant say whether it is hobbled in AH or WB's ar whatever game. It is true, the advice I gave you terra is basic smart flying and conservative. It is the kind of advice that will keep you alive and a few kills to boot. It can also be applied to to most high wing loaded AC in AH (and even the good turners, except for the speed comment).
The P-51 does well in its envelope, But in a multi-AC battle, there are better choices in my opinion. Just remember thas soon as you dive and engage chances are a high con will show up, never fails (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) AC to watch for when in the Pony--the spit 9, N1K1, FW190A5, and the YAK all get my fullest attention when I'm in the Pony, but only if they are coalt or higher.
Like any other AC, it takes practice and experience. Be patient in your flying style. There is a time to be aggresive and a time to be passive, experience will tell you when. Oh--BTW when you are zooming, you are gonna get slow, thats just gravity, but you are conserving energy by doing this. Just dont do it with a con at your 6 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Got your Email--will cya tonite.
ammo
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Originally posted by Duckwing6:
That's what a Zoom climb is for terracotta (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Yes I now ,but what Im asking is if u zoom climb at near stall speed or when I get 200 300 speed I start the reverse? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)(immelman, etc).
what I do now is if I'm at 400 start the zoom them when reached the stall speed or near I start the reverse, of course I'm talking about a merge (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
oh! Duckwing I'm learnig just with films that redwing send to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I got the duel that you guys did the other day, this is one of my best films, very descriptive and I'm learning a lot of merge things with this kind of films (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)(just stay away from flack's in duels (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
CC ammo see ya tonit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by terracota (edited 07-20-2000).]
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Heh stay hi, run away, pick on the outer vulnerable fighters.
Hristo call such people "opportunists" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<G, D, R>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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terracota,
your really using a zoom as an E fighting tactic...so speed isn't the issue it's seperation. In the example I gave you above your using the efficiency of the wing at high speed to force a better turning plane to bleed E thru higher drag. As he gains angles he'll lose E..now if you judge it right he'll be neg E to you before he kills you...you good go level and run away in other words. Now, if you start to climb a couple things can happen...since the spit and nikki both outclimb the pony a gentle climb works against you in long run...if you pull to many G's to quick you may bleed E to fast and top out early. Find the sweet spot and you'll convert E to alt quick enough that the spit cant rebuild it's E enough for a shot...ideally you'll sucker em into a nose up situation where they're hanging prop 800 below you...you'll be 120 or so 1/2 flaps in an almost flat turn around em at end. reason for the turn is it eliminates the prop shot...no rudder authority at top of stall so they cant follow you around with nose. So here the key is closure, if the con starts to close to quickly in the zoom you goofed...Idealy the closure will be slow and controlled...you know you got em when you need to cutwep and/or throttle to keep em hooked.
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terracotta as humble said the speed you have when you start your reversal after a zoom climb is depending on
A) how agressive you want to reverse/re-attack
b) How much speration you seek
For example in the F4U i will usually go for a large lateral (alt) seperation between me and a more nimble opponent because when i come down i can negate any turn he does whil just rolling in the vertical.
Against a slower turning opponent or a bogie that is really low on Speed/E i'll probably start reversal earlier (higher speed, more agressive).
Also the threat sitation plays into this .. if it's 1 enemy only and you're alone in the sector you can be a lot more agressive than when he has some buddies hanging around.
DW6
p.s. yea the Duells against Rediwing were great (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (the ack wasn't shooting btw .. there's something messy with the film viewer when your arena has the field set to a diffrent country (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The pony is an pretty nice turner aswell (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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good now I think I got the idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I will try this moves to see what happens
thak's a lot for your help guys (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Actually,running is only an option for the 190 drivers.
Last night as i do many nights,i stay low & let the cons come to me,P51 can stall fight for a minimum amount of time. And i do mean stall!!
Fighting 2 Spits i used a ton o rudder and let the pony stall,controlling my drop with rudder. cut the spit i 1/2 as he passed through my guns. Good SA helps,knowing where the Spit was let me setup my stall,as my nose dropped in stall,ruddered over so Spit had to go through my guns. Also took the 2nd Spit out the same way.
Very intense fighting,not for the 190 drivers,er faint of heart (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Dog out........
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terracotta,
maniac would be another good stick to talk to...one of the best ropers i've seen in pony...invariably he'll get a good shot on me if he's got the E to start with. i'd ask hang, ammo rwy maniac if you could observe a flight or two.
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Especially troubling is the total lack of even half assed performance above 23k.
Hmm, according to the charts the P-51D can out-climb all but the Me 109's, P-38L and Spit 9 at 25k. The only thing faster is the G-10, and not by much. The full arse performance version must be the P-51H...
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Heh stay hi, run away, pick on the outer vulnerable fighters.
Hristo call such people "opportunists" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
God i hate this 'pure figthing bullocks'. The MA aint a duel, its unfair, period. 8 of 10 kills in this game could be deemed 'opportunist'. If you were to only engage perfectly co-e opponents (ie non -'opportunist'), you be dead cause some other 'opportunist' would shaft ya. stay hi, run away, pick on the outer vulnerable fighters. sounds like good advice irrespective of what you fly.
'opportunist' sounds like the moan of the defeated.
BTW, i have mauled plenty of 205s in the aforementioned drag and zoom then hammerhead move. They are not as easy as spits or nikis but can be done.
I agree with wardog, the stang can stall fight reasonably well. I got into a stall fight with an n1k2 and beat it (2 notches of flaps and wep). Just that its far from its strong points.
Hi-speed turn is brilliant, i've outturned spits at high speeds and wound up on their 6 by outturning them (not extended stall turns folks).
Stang is a nice ride, and if ya in the toejam ya *can* run. Other people cuss ya and call you all sorts when you do, but they're only jealous (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Overlord Spatula
if you adhere to all the rules you miss out on all the fun
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_sig1.jpg)
=357th Pony Express=
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 07-23-2000).]
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Originally posted by humble:
terracotta,
maniac would be another good stick to talk to...one of the best ropers i've seen in pony...invariably he'll get a good shot on me if he's got the E to start with. i'd ask hang, ammo rwy maniac if you could observe a flight or two.
this will be great thanks humble (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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now Im no expert in 51 (or any plane realy hehe) but one thing I use in the e fighter planes ALOT is after a pass and go into zoom (even if not 1st one) watch the con in your 6 view once you have a slow seperation and are nearing 150 pull rest of way over slowly and watch them. they are about to go to a nose low to save themselves (note this is best when you have 1 to 1.2 vertical seperation) when you pull over get your wings level with his and set up a lag turn (more E for you and less for him) you SHOULD have a nice shot since he is still slow and somewhat stead fighting stall to get out of your guns. if he doesnt pull up get your speed to about 250 or so and pull out... re set up the egagement with him lower. but most important. if your not in trouble use LOW G manuvers.
the only times I get in trouble with this is when I let my SA drop looking for other planes OR if its people like Hristo, Mitsu, and Citabria (they seem to have thier own flight models) <G,D,R>
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I fly the p51 a lot and have yet to find a particular plane in AH that can't be beaten co-e with a little patience. With an E advantage the p51 is nearly invincible in a 1 vs 1. Basically I just try to keep speed to a maximum and always turn while climbing or diving. When you have an E advantage you can "outturn" any opponent by zooming up while at the same time rolling to place them directly in your high 6 view. By continuing to roll as you come over the top of your loop they should be directly in front of you and probably about 5k below. Repeat as neccesary. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As for the wing sheading aspect of the stang, the trick is not to roll the plane during a pull up at over about 450 mph. The p51 does seem to have a nasty habit of losing wings without warning, so I try to use rudder and chopping throttle to limit speed to about 500 mph max while in a dive.
Honestly I'd say the p51s biggest disadvantage is the fact that it must rely on E fighting to win. In the main arena you rarely find fights where you can zoom continuously without another enemy coming along and picking you off at the top of a loop. I think this is the reason for the "pick off the guys at the edge of the fight first" comments. This is good advice in any plane, but I personally just try to engage the highest con in the area by making a quick pass to get him to split-s or maybe even catch him sleeping. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I find the biggest advantages of the p51 are it's range, speed, and the ballistics of the 50 caliber. The 50 is the easiest gun to get hits with in snapshot situations, BUT you must get about 1 second of hits on a single part of the aircraft to damage it severely. Don't rely on speed to save you all the time though. Many planes, like the 109 and 190, can easily catch you with their superior acceleration before you can get up to top speed. Fortunately the p51 seems to be able to hold it's own in a turn with the 109 and 190a8. Beware of the a5 though, it can perform amazing vertical turns at a much lower minimum airspeed. It also carries a mean punch with 4 cannon and 2 MG. The F4u, P47, and Typhoon should also not be taken lightly. They all can beat you in top speed under the right circumstances. The F4u and Typhoon are incredible at low altitudes, while the P47 can stay right with a stang from about 20k on up. Diving away from a p47 is also a bad idea. Fortunately the p51, when loaded with 50% fuel or less, can hold it's own in a turn with the p47 and can easily turn with the Typhoon. I have been having a terrible time with the zeros recently. It seems they can force a HO at will, and even though you can probably kill them, they will almost always take off a wingtip, radiator, and/or the amazing paper rudder.
Another good piece of advice that is true for all E fighters is to use vertical manuvering when at all possible. When forced to turn, make sure you use 1 notch of flaps. Because of the p51s great range, I generally take a 50% fuel load and two drop tanks. If I think that a fight may be nearby, I will drop one tank immediately and climb using a single DT. (Make sure you trim out to keep from stalling when flying on 1 tank and when you release the tank.) When the p51 gets to about 1/4 tank it can turn amazingly well with a notch of flaps for about 2 turns. Beyond that, I'd say your options are to try to extend, or drop another notch of flaps and hope the other guy makes a mistake. Sometimes I find that I can catch the other guy in an all-or-nothing diving turn and snapshot at close range. Of course if you miss you will be at an E disadvantage and lower than the bogey.
Hope this helps a little. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS