Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Grits on November 01, 2004, 11:16:46 PM
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OK, after doing some back to back testing offline (after the patch) I think the Ki84 might not be so bad afterall. Here is what I found:
At SL the F6F is 5 MPH faster than the Ki84 with WEP, 5 slower without WEP, but at 5K the Ki is +/- 5 MPH faster even with the F6F using WEP. Speed is not great, but its not bad either.
BUT.....
Speed is not the only thing...the Ki84 outclimbs the F6F (even when the F6F is using WEP) by 5-600 FPM from SL to 5K, and it outclimbs the F4U-1D (even on WEP) by 800+ FPM. That is a SERIOUS advantage in climbing ability considering it is basically on par with the F6F speedwise, and it outclimbs the F4U-1D by a wide margin.
It has (to me) very nice handling below 325 MPH, above then it gets mushy and it starts creaking well before 400 MPH (probably about 375 MPH).
So is it what I expected it to be? No. But more importantly, can I work with it as it is and hope for improvements or an additional model? Yup.
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So?
The N1K2-J did all those things too, plus has better firepower, better manuverability and better high speed handling.
Why the Ki-84 is the same speed as the N1K2 at sea leval and faster up high makes no sense. It is using the same engine at a lower power rating.
The Ki-84 will not do anything at all to help deal with the F4U. They will still be absolutely immune to the Japanese and that is an unfortunate fact.
We got a early 1943 prototype Ki-84 to fight the 1944 and 1945 USN and USMC with.
I'll not waste my time playing target drone for the over modeled US aircraft. Sorry.
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I hear ya Karnak, I am a bit dissapointed with it too, I'm just saying its not the end of the world. Remember, the C-hog was accidently modeled incorrectly at first and they fixed it and made it heavier. I'm sure they will tweek it or add a later version sometime down the road.
On positive note, since we have the '43 prototype version, I see no reason why it should be left out of any late '43 setups.
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Originally posted by Karnak
So?
The N1K2-J did all those things too, plus has better firepower, better manuverability and better high speed handling.
Why the Ki-84 is the same speed as the N1K2 at sea leval and faster up high makes no sense. It is using the same engine at a lower power rating.
The Ki-84 will not do anything at all to help deal with the F4U. They will still be absolutely immune to the Japanese and that is an unfortunate fact.
We got a early 1943 prototype Ki-84 to fight the 1944 and 1945 USN and USMC with.
I'll not waste my time playing target drone for the over modeled US aircraft. Sorry.
Sadly I agree with you. Shame on pyro and HTC the modelling is bogus.
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Does seem to be a big let down.
IMO that was the "whole point" of everyone crying for the FRANK was to have a Japanese Late War fighter platform. Why AH in it's infanite wisdom gave us the 43 prototype version just defies reason. :rolleyes:
Have to say the same for the B-24J Model bomber. We already had late war model bombers with the B-17G & Lancaster. The B-24 should really have been the D model or even better the Japanese BETTY or perhaps a Russian Model bomber.
I hate to say it but it does seem that AH favors giving the Allies a bit of an edge when they put out models of planes. Still, hopefully with AH2 out now in it's new format we can see more conversions of the models of aircraft we have now changed to early or late models.
One can only hope... :aok
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Jester are you flying again?
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Been flying under the handle "Storch" I believe.
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What did I do to deserve THAT Slash??? :confused:
Hey Bear, yea downloaded the new version when I heard about the KI-84 coming out. Shame it is such a DOG - the old Warbirds FRANK would eat this one's lunch. Think any of the old 27th Sentai guys (Best pilots of Japanese Iron I ever saw) would tell you the same.
Am trying to get me account started again under my old name - going to fly a bit between classes but won't be doing any squad flying for awhile.
! Guys!
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Originally posted by Jester
What did I do to deserve THAT Slash??? :confused:
! Guys!
I'm guessing this ;)- I hate to say it but it does seem that AH favors giving the Allies a bit of an edge when they put out models of planes.
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with the tweak of the Ki-84 in this last patch, I have found the Ki-84 to be a very formidable opponent or even more a great ride. With the knowledge of using proper trim ( read as turn combat trim off ) I have had no problems flying it against others...I have not flown it a whole bunch ( I do not like japanese planes ) but when I did fly it I won my fights........
sometimes I think alot of the negatism has to do with the pilot not knowing what to do with the plane, and expects the plane to fly itself ( read that as do all the work for the pile-it )
It can dive, it can accelerate considerably fast and hit some rather high speeds all with out structural damage( think near 500 ) if you do not yank and bank it or fly it hamfisted.....and when it is under 200 it becomes very manuever friendly ..........
it might be a sick pup according to the data everyone refers too, but data is not always something to go by..just a thought......
:cool:
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The Ki84 has the speed of an A-5, turns like a SpitV rolls as good as a 190 and has a climb rate of 4200 FPS, better than any other non perk prop ride. The Ki84 is easily a match for any plane in the US inventory.
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The Ki84 has the speed of an A-5, turns like a SpitV rolls as good as a 190 and has a climb rate of 4200 FPS, better than any other non perk prop ride. The Ki84 is easily a match for any plane in the US inventory.
It's actually quite a bit slower than the A-5 at all altitudes. It's speed is pretty comprable to the spit 9 up to about 10K, where it really starts to drop off. It's climb is about even with the MC-205 on wep. As for turn, the Spit 9 seems to be pretty close, but the spit 5 is a bit of a reach (unless you get real slow and get the flaps out, but the flaps don't deploy until you are really really slow). Basically, a slower but better climbing low altitude only Spit 9, with similar but less potent guns. IMO.
Hammer has some good Java applets for speed and climb comparisons here.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=135708&referrerid=5405
Charon
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The Ki-84 is no faster than the N1K2-J is. It is more than 15mph slower than the Fw190A-5 at sea level. It is 30mph slower than the F4U-1s at sea level. It is 44mph slower than the P-51D at sea level.
Until HTC posts charts for it I have to go off of published engine data to test critical alts, and right now the Ki-84 doesn't seem to be capable of hitting 388mph at it's best altitude. The best I could get out of it was 384mph. Not only did HTC use the slowest data there is, the AH Ki-84 can't even hit those speeds being 1mph slow at sea level and 4mph slow at 21,000ft.
It did absolutely nothing to reduce the speed gap and that is why I will not fly it in the CT. I find getting bored and zoomed to death by massively faster aircraft to be tedius and unenjoyable.
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Karnak, the Ki84 is ruling the late PAC set right now. It easily owns all the late war US stuff.
Speed is not everything.
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it is when that's all you know...
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Shane
it is when that's all you know...
:rolleyes:
Exactly. It is boring to fight against people who have such a huge advantage and only know how to make a single pass and run. If the Ki-84 had narrowed the speed gap a bit it would make it harder for the boring "one badly executed pass and run" types to run with impunity and at will.
As it is, it does no better than the N1K2-J in that regards and the boring "one pass and run" people still find the US side in a late war Pac setup to be their ideal environment.
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i find plenty of higher japanese planes bnz me and running after they blow it...
and i'm in a lower hog, or even a d11 jug which is hardly a speed demon.
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Well, they may run for a short time, but if you give pursuit you'll be overtaking them after no more than a minute or two. That is an option that no Japanese fighter has. I didn't expect the Ki-84 to change that either. I just thought it would make it a bit harder for the US fliers to run by eliminating their ability to massively mess up and still get off scott free. I figured it would limit them to normal level mess ups while getting away with it. Sadly it was not to be.
That is not my preference. I only try to witdraw if the odds have gotten stupid. I'll fight a 2 or 3 on 1. I'll probably lose, but I'll fight.
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What did I do to deserve THAT Slash??? Heya Andi:D
As it is, it does no better than the N1K2-J in that regards and the boring "one pass and run" people still find the US side in a late war Pac setup to be their ideal environment.
Your posts show me that you havent flown the plane in combat. More than once anyway. If you're not going to fly here then move along. We have enough trouble in here with out some one who has written the place off dropping in to stir the "Axis/Allies" whinefest up anymore than it already is.
The Ki-84 is very capable. Period.
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The Ki84 is as uber as any non-uber plane can get.
I almost feel slightly ashamed when I use it. Almost. It's THAT good. I'd never be caught dead in a SpitV if there was anything else to fly, but give me options and I'll choose the Ki84 almost all the time.
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Slash27,
A) The post was addessed to me.
B) I have almost 100 kills in the thing and for me to have done that in two weeks means that I am flying a lot more that I have been in the last two years.
C) I popped into the CT for about half an hour, flew two Ki-84 sorties and one C-47 sortie to the uncapturable airfield.
My squad does not fly in the CT, and I have been trying to figure out how to use the Ki-84 in AH despite the fact that it is slow as crap. The CT is a very, very bad environment to try to do so as the fights are few and the flights long, especially in a slow plane like the Ki-84.
In short, go take a flying leap.
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Originally posted by Slash27
Your posts show me that you havent flown the plane in combat. More than once anyway. If you're not going to fly here then move along. We have enough trouble in here with out some one who has written the place off dropping in to stir the "Axis/Allies" whinefest up anymore than it already is.
them there be some strong words......
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Sometimes the "CT" stands for Combat Theater.
Sometimes the "CT" stands for Combatative and Threatening.
Depends on the day of the week, phases of the moon...........
How much they've had to drink..................
Just let em sleep it off TC. :D
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The lack of top speed isn't problem, high speed handling of KI84 is.
F4U, F6F, F4F, FM2, P38, P47, they'll all turn inside you if you come into fight with anything above 250mph. Not even trim will help you. Before speed drops you'll be dead against any good pilot.
To win you have to merge with 250 max and go first turn with zero throttle, drop flaps and you'll have your kill. Throttle management is very important.
If they have significant E adv, sticks like Shane will try to rope you, but often, good climb abilities of KI84 helps you to follow up. If you're less than 600yds bellow when he reverses on top, he won't be able to get angle on you on the way down.
Also watch the dead zone between 10 and 14k alt. MAN pressure drops there and you won't have the performance to outclimb the faster bandit.
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Inyo,
Turn off Combat Trim and the high speed turning problem goes away. With Combat Trim on the Ki-84 cannot pull a blackout at 300mph. With Combat Trim off the Ki-84 can pull a blackout at 500mph.
I have watched the climb indicator and the airspeed indicator and I cannot tell a difference as the manifold pressure changes. In the Spit XIV it is very easy to tell, but in the Ki-84 it seems not to be modeled.
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Even with trimmed KI84, high speed instantanious turn rate is worse than that of most allied planes. At 275 is about equal, at 250 is better.
What I'm saying is that most merges occur at max level speed and good stick in allied ride will use this against you.
Climb rate drops for about 750fpm in dead zone. Didn't check about the speed.
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134549
Note where the boost drops. The Ki84 does best between 4k and 12k, and then again from 20k to 23k.
Where the boost drops, the climb drops, as well, but that's a general relationship, I didn't make recordings of the climb rate (kind of hard to do when it's pegged)
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You know, that f6f is way undermodeled.
It cant even outclimb a zero, and the nik kicks its arse up to 8k in climb rate. It cant turn with any japanese plane below 300 mph, and it doesnt get a speed advantage over anything but the zero until 11k for the nik and 15k for the ki. The nik has 4 monster cannons and all it has is those machine guns.
Yeah, we could all whine about a plane. Why you guys ever thought they would give you a plane that had 8 cannons, outclimbed a spit 14, outhandled a zero, and performed instant rolls at 500 mph is really beyond comprehension.
Grow up
The 84 is a nice plane, has personality, is a good flyer, has decent guns, climbs like a bat out of hell, and can hold its own in a turn fight. What did you want?
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What did you want?
Another reason to whine?
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What Erg said. The Ki84 is a great plane that can easily hold its own against anything short of a Spit 14 or a Temp.
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i'm interested in seeing how it holds up to the spit5/9...
and of course, the la5/7.
:D
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ergRTC,
You must have a differnent F6F-5 than I do. The F6F-5 is faster than all Japanese aircraft at sea level. Not as significantly as the F4U by any means, but it is faster.
I'll agree that it isn't comfortably faster though.
What I wanted was a Japanese fighter that would make it so that the F4U was faster, but not comfortably faster.
As for your other bull****, grow up. You're being an ******* for even suggesting that I asked for, or complained about the vast majority of things you mention. I have never claimed it climbed too slowly, that it was undergunned or that it should perform instant rolls at 500mph. As it was originally I thought it rolled too slowly. Apparently Pyro came to the same conclusion. I also thought that it's elevator heaviness was overdone, but Widewing pointed out that Combat Trim was causing that and I've said nothing but good things about it's elevator authority since. The only thing that I have complained about was the speed and from that you some how get that I wouldn't be happy with it unless it climbed better than a Spitfire Mk XIV and had eight cannons? You're an idiot.
It is what it is and I am trying to learn how to use it. This involves a considerable ammount of unlearning how to fight in the Mosquito as they are very different aircraft. The fact that I don't wish to be used as target practice by F4U-1Cs and P-51Ds does not mean I think that the AH Ki-84 is useless, just not something I want to fly against CT fliers who like to fly "historically", e.g. chicken****, without regards to their mission or wingmen.
Karnak's Ki-84-I-Ko rating:
Climb and Acceleration: Good
Rollrate: Very good
Low Speed turning: Very Good
High Speed Turning: Average
Speed: Below Average
Firepower: Above Average
Ordinance: Average
Visibility: Very Good
Fuel Endurance: Good
Durability: Average
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Originally posted by Karnak
So?
The N1K2-J did all those things too, plus has better firepower, better manuverability and better high speed handling.
Why the Ki-84 is the same speed as the N1K2 at sea leval and faster up high makes no sense. It is using the same engine at a lower power rating.
The Ki-84 will not do anything at all to help deal with the F4U. They will still be absolutely immune to the Japanese and that is an unfortunate fact.
We got a early 1943 prototype Ki-84 to fight the 1944 and 1945 USN and USMC with.
I'll not waste my time playing target drone for the over modeled US aircraft. Sorry.
Karnak,
In a 1-1 Co-e the Ki-84 dances all over any of the blue planes (assuming roughly equivalent pilot skill)
Ok The hog has a running "out" but hey , it's totally outclassed in just about every other aspect . (High speed turn rate the exception, and that doesn't last for long)
If the Ki-84 comes in with E adv on any of the blue planes it should win period.
So in it's place in history in the CT , it does pretty damn well , I really can't see what all the fuss is about.
Your not happy because it doesn't outclimb, outurn , AND outrun the F4u ? to quote the wonderful Mr. Loaf - 2 out of 3 ain't bad :)
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Wow that sounds like a much different plane then the one you have been complaining about. All I have to say is whatever karnak.
I am including the speed pics, I included a black line as a suspected/guessed at performance of the ki. Not sure about the deck speed of the ki but I heard it was 333.
Oh yeah, that on the deck speed advantage of the f6f. HOLY SH## BATMAN why havent I been taking advantage of that!
(http://mysite.verizon.net/kjard/speed.GIF)
(http://mysite.verizon.net/kjard/climb.GIF)
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Originally posted by Karnak
The Ki-84 is no faster than the N1K2-J is. It is more than 15mph slower than the Fw190A-5 at sea level. It is 30mph slower than the F4U-1s at sea level. It is 44mph slower than the P-51D at sea level.
Until HTC posts charts for it I have to go off of published engine data to test critical alts, and right now the Ki-84 doesn't seem to be capable of hitting 388mph at it's best altitude. The best I could get out of it was 384mph. Not only did HTC use the slowest data there is, the AH Ki-84 can't even hit those speeds being 1mph slow at sea level and 4mph slow at 21,000ft.
It did absolutely nothing to reduce the speed gap and that is why I will not fly it in the CT. I find getting bored and zoomed to death by massively faster aircraft to be tedius and unenjoyable.
There is always the DA, MA. If you feal froggy, try PF (where the Ki-84Ic..30mm wing guns...rule with speed and climb)
http://www.vmf312.neptune.com
HOWDY JESTER!!!!
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ergRTC,
The Ki-84's deck speed is 323mph. Pyro said it's speed is 324mph at sea level and 388mph at best altitude. The fastest sustained I've gotten it is 323mph at sea level and 384mph at 21,000ft. I'm not sure what Pyro has it's best altitude set to.
It's climb rate, at sea level, with full fuel is aboput 3,750fpm. With 50% how most people fly it the climb is just barely over 4,000fpm at sea level. I assure you the climb rate drops off faster than you're guessing.
If that is how you think the Ki-84 performs you are giving it too much respect.
Late War Pacific Setup Aircraft Speeds at Sea Level in AH2 given by the E6B:
F4U-4:
WEP: 376mph
MIL: 354mph
P-51D:
WEP: 367mph
MIL: 355mph
F4U-1D:
WEP: 357mph
MIL: 343mph
F4U-1C:
WEP: 357mph
MIL: 343mph
P-38L:
WEP: 343mph
MIL: 332mph
P-47D-40:
WEP: 343mph
MIL: 330mph
F6F-5:
WEP: 330mph
MIL: 315mph
N1K2-J:
WEP: 325mph
MIL: 314mph
Ki-84-I-Ko:
MIL: 323mph
A-20G:
WEP: 318mph
MIL: 313mph
Ki-61-I-Tei:
WEP: 314mph
MIL: 306mph
FM2:
WEP: 301mph
MIL: 293mph
A6M5b:
MIL: 288mph
Ki-67:
MIL: 284mph
B-26B:
MIL: 272mph
B-24J:
MIL: 232mph
CurtissP-6EHawk,
The Ki-84-Ic never saw combat. Only a very few were built, less than five maybe. IL-2:FB has some screwy modeling and the Ki-84 is way overmodeled there. The game seems to way over favor 30mm cannon. With the Ki-84-Ia (two Ho-5 20mm cannon and two Ho-103 12.7mm guns) I couldn't shoot down a single Me323. With the Ki-84-Ib (four Ho-5 20mm cannon) I could just barely shoot one Me323 down. With the Ki-84-Ic (two Ho-105 30mm cannon and two Ho-5 20mm cannon) I could shoot an Me323 down with a quater second burst, and easily destroy a flight of four Me323s. 30mm cannon hit harder for sure, but not that much harder.
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OK, I got the Ki-84 to sustain 387mph at 20,950ft with 8 minutes of fuel left at X2 fuel burn.
Restested and it will sustain 386mph at 20,950ft with 18 minutes of fuel left at an x2 fuel burn rate.
Only 2mph shy of Pyro's 388 intneded. Still, I'd rather it erred on the high side.:D
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Karnak the Ki84 is vastly better than Niki.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Karnak the Ki84 is vastly better than Niki.
I agree that it is better, but not vastly better. The Ki-84 is slightly better overall. When I posted saying that the N1K2 was more manuverable it was v2.01 Patch 1 and the Ki-84 had not yet had it's roll rate boosted. I also did not know about turning off Combat Trim to fix the heavy elevator problem.
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Hey Hawk!
How goes it? You got "OUR" plane built yet?
You got stock in PF? :D
!
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Pyro
In the last 2.01 patch, we’re just going to continue to make some fixes and there are some performance issues with the Ki-84 that I plan to change.
Happy Thanksgiving Karnak.:aok
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Thanks Slash27. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving as well.
I am curious as to what will be changed. Hopefully we'll see next week and I'll have a operable computer the week after so I can try it myself.:D