Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JB35 on November 02, 2004, 01:53:06 AM
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Is it me or is it an all to often that you get that 1 shot and your on fire ?
getting to be that almost every time you up and get some damage you catch fire .
Planes are the 110... and now the B24...
Not sure on what other planes catch fire too often but please list them.
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Mosquito
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Originally posted by Karnak
Mosquito
MOSQUITO!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Karnak
Mosquito
Umm... The Mosquito was made of wood wasn't it?... Wood burns last time I checked and most ammo in AH is either API .50s (I = incendiary = arms containing highly flammable substances that will cause a fire on impact) or HE cannons of some kind.
Why shouldn't it burn?
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Because it didn't?
Seriously, before you spout fireplace guesses try reading about it it.
I can show you photos of night fighter Mossies that were coated in the flaming fuel of their victims that came home, only the paint burned away. By your reasoning the wooden airplane under the paint should have gone up like kindling.
So I can just as realistically claim that the P-47D-11 should burn because it is covered in paint too.
The fact is that the Mosquito had self sealing fuel tanks and was no more prone to fires than any other aircraft.
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Aluminum burns too. And much more fiercly then wood.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Aluminum burns too. And much more fiercly then wood.
Muuuch harder to ignite though.
--Peregrine.
PS. Solid rocket boosters for the shuttle burn aluminum.
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ahh.
yes it is. But so is a resin impregnated wooden airframe moving at 100s of miles per hour. The mossie is a very very survivable aircraft. Its fuel system and hydrolics(which are what really catch fire in aircraft) are very very survivable. It should not have an above average chance of burning.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I can show you photos of night fighter Mossies that were coated in the flaming fuel of their victims that came home, only the paint burned away. By your reasoning the wooden airplane under the paint should have gone up like kindling.
Some fuel burning outside in the slipstream is not the same as an API round lodged in the bowls of the aircraft burning at high temperature. Even with self-sealing tanks, multiple API rounds hitting in a small area (as is most cases in AH) would destroy the sealing membrane(s)/material(s) and ignite the fuel.
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Midnight,
That wasn't true and is moot in AH as it is the fuel tanks that catch fire in the Mossie, particularly the AUX tank in the fuselage.
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Originally posted by Pongo
ahh.
yes it is. But so is a resin impregnated wooden airframe moving at 100s of miles per hour. The mossie is a very very survivable aircraft. Its fuel system and hydrolics(which are what really catch fire in aircraft) are very very survivable. It should not have an above average chance of burning.
Burning alumimum isn't something you want to be anywhere near. However, if you take a propane torch (for example) to aluminum the aluminum won't burn, it'll melt long before it ignites. If I take a blow torch to resin impregnated wood, it may or may not burst into open flame, but it will burn. That being said, fuel is what we're really concerned about burning, and so the mossie shouldn't suffer signifcantly due to being plywood.
--Peregrine.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Some fuel burning outside in the slipstream is not the same as an API round lodged in the bowls of the aircraft burning at high temperature. Even with self-sealing tanks, multiple API rounds hitting in a small area (as is most cases in AH) would destroy the sealing membrane(s)/material(s) and ignite the fuel.
mossies didnt burn like this in real life and shouldnt in AH either
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We agree peragin, and the notion of the mossie burning because its wood has been defeated.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Umm... The Mosquito was made of wood wasn't it?... Wood burns last time I checked and most ammo in AH is either API .50s (I = incendiary = arms containing highly flammable substances that will cause a fire on impact) or HE cannons of some kind.
Why shouldn't it burn?
API rounds are Magnesium tipped. They didnt contain any "flammable substances". The magnesium sparked when it hit metal. If it didnt hit anything flammable there was no more risk of fire than a standard bullet and it did no more damage than a standard bullet. HE cannon rounds were different of course, but even given a wood frame I doubt they would start a blazing fire every time. As for the B-24, I went after a formation last night. Came up on the lead bomber, put a 1 second burst into his right wing. Got smoke. Slid to the left, another 1 second burst into the left wing. Got smoke. Then I died lol. I was very surprised how fast the engines went on it. (I was in Ki-84)
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Originally posted by Pongo
We agree peragin, and the notion of the mossie burning because its wood has been defeated.
Once the fuel was alight, I would expect a burning mossie to die quicker than say a burning 110. The resin/wood should char, delaminate and all sorts of bad stuff under the heat of buring fuel.
--Peregrine.
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Originally posted by peregrin
Once the fuel was alight, I would expect a burning mossie to die quicker than say a burning 110. The resin/wood should char, delaminate and all sorts of bad stuff under the heat of buring fuel.
--Peregrine.
Aluminium melts really fast under intense heat. The thicker skin and much thicker main spar of the Mossie wouldn't go any faster than the Bf110s structure, probably slower. In AH the Mossie's structure goes much faster than the aluminum aircraft once on fire.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
API rounds are Magnesium tipped. They didnt contain any "flammable substances".
Let's see
Encarta definition
Incindiary - containing chemicals that cause fire
From this website http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/bullets.htm talking specifically about the .50 fired from the M2
Incendiary bullets contain an incendiary composition.
And from the department of the Navy
The Cartridge, Caliber .50 4 API M8/1 API-T M20 Linked (DODIC A576) is used in M2 .50 caliber Machine Guns against armored targets. Upon impact with the target, the incendiary mixture bursts into flames and ignites the flammable material. The cartridges are linked with the M2 Links. The cartridges are 5.45 inches long with a brass case and are linked four M8 Armor Piercing Incendiary rounds to one M20 Armor Piercing Incendiary Tracer rounds. The projectile for the M8 Cartridge is a metal-jacketed bullet with a hardened core of manganese-molybdenum steel, a point filler incendiary composition and a base filler seal of lead antimony. The projectile for the M20 Cartridge is similar to the M8 Bullet but with a tracer element. An aluminum-colored tip on the projectile identifies the M8 Cartridge and a red tip with aluminum-colored stripe to the rear of the red tip identifies the M20 Cartridge.
I don't know... maybe I am not reading this the way it is written, but it looks to me that the API contained chemicals that burned
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ok But did ALL Planes in WWII have API Rounds ?
Seems like it doesnt matter what your hit by ,
be it even a Bird that fley by and crapped ....and his defecation hit your wing by chance ... you would catch on fire.
:mad:
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Originally posted by Karnak
Midnight,
That wasn't true and is moot in AH as it is the fuel tanks that catch fire in the Mossie, particularly the AUX tank in the fuselage.
And what exactly did you think I meant by saying that multiple API rounds piercing a self-sealing fuel tank would cause a fire?
I know in AH, a fire on the aircraft is always fuel related and that the AH API rounds don't cause fires in other things the way they can in real life.
What I meant by fuel in the slipstream was from your reference of night fighters having it splashed on the external parts of the aircraft. I agree that this wouldn't make the rest of the plane catch fire, however, an API round inside the airframe is another story.
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The information I had came from a Bio I read. I dont have the book with me, alot of my books are still on the mainland. However, your posted info comes from an official source, and I cant refute it so I stand corrected. Maybe the guy that wrote the book I read was talking about something else entirely and just called it API, or perhaps he was confused. It does say the bullets have silver tips. Magnesium.......Manganese.... .........eh. No biggie, aint the first time I've been wrong.
Since you obviously did your homework, I did a little myself and came across this.
50 Caliber M8 API
The M8 API (armor piercing incendiary) was put into service in 1943 to replace the M1 Incendiary, and is still in service today. The M8 is built nearly identical to the M2 Armor Piercing except the M8 has 12 grains of incendiary mix (IM#11) in the nose instead of a lead filler, and a lead caulking disc in the base acting as a seal. Having the same hardened steel core as the M2, the M8 matches the armor piercing capability of the M2 with the added advantage of incendiary effect. While it has considerably less incendiary mix than the M1, the performance of the M8 was greatly superior to the M1 because of it's ability to penetrate the target and ignite the material inside rather than just flash on the surface like the M1 often did, making for a greater first shot effect. Bullet weight is about 649 grains, and identified by silver tip paint.
These M8 bullets have been pulled from US GI W.W.II dated ammunition on the "old style" bullet pullers. This machine splits the case neck and then gently removes the projectile. As a result of this operation, there is 1 small line on the projectile from a point just slightly ahead of the cannelure down to the beginning of the boattail, leaving only a negligible mark sticking out of a loaded case. These projectiles have all been run through a set of draw dies to insure proper diameter, and eliminate the high spot caused by the split line.
Pyrotechnic performance of these projectiles is only slightly less than the M1 Incendiary. The flash varies exponentially with the amount of fuel, so while the M1 contains 3 times the incendiary mix of the M8, the flash is only about 30% larger. These M8 are also safer ( we have fired 20,000 plus rounds and not yet had a muzzle flash,) but they are less sensitive. When shooting through steel drums, they flash on the second surface creating a flash inside the drum. Similarly, when shooting vehicles, the projectile generally penetrates the skin and detonates inside on another sheet metal surface. High speed photos show the tip breaking off with the first penetration, exposing the incendiary mix which then detonates on the second impact. Plywood targets are merely penetrated with no flash. They will flash on a dirt backstop, but unless they strike a rock the projectile will more than likely penetrate about 6" into the surface before flashing, making only a small visible flash. But if your target is rocks, concrete, or heavy steel, these bullets provide a spectacular show!
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Originally posted by peregrin
Once the fuel was alight, I would expect a burning mossie to die quicker than say a burning 110. The resin/wood should char, delaminate and all sorts of bad stuff under the heat of buring fuel.
--Peregrine.
What the last second befor the plane is consumed looks like is of little relevence from a game stand point, or from a reality stand point. The Mossie was not more likely to catch fire or be destroyed by fire.
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First,
Does the Mossie in the game Really catch fire more than any other aircraft? I know it seems to me it does, But I dont have any solid proof that it does.
Second,
Once on fire, Does the Mossie in the game explode sooner than a simiular sized aircraft? It seems if fire starts its only a very short time before your dead. Other planes seem to fly along time burning away.
Third,
I had always read, that even thou made of wood, Mossies were very very fire resistant. Is that a misconception on my part?
Last,
It would be great to here someone from HTC pipe in on how the fire model works on this plane, normaly once explained, It all becomes clear.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Umm... The Mosquito was made of wood wasn't it?...
Q: And what does wood do?
A: It floats!
Q: What else floats?
A: Very small rocks? No! Ducks? Yes - Ducks!
So, since both ducks and mosquitos are made of wood, then ducks should also catch fire very easily, right?
Sorry - bored while the MA is under repair - My apologies to Monty and the gang
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three planes that catch fire 90% of the time:
Mosquito, as mentioned.
P47, almost a certain fire if hit with cannon here
and so far un-mentioned, and by far the most likely to ignite, the Zero.
i like fires, especially on other peoples rides. I think HT have this just right. planes did burn.
not sure if anyone saw the link posted here last month refering to P47 guncam footage. 9 out of 10 of the FWs and MEs that were shot down exploded into flame, and this only with 50 cals not even explosive cannon rounds.
the fire model is just right, and has been recently changed this way, for the better i would say.
just my opinion.
Batfink
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Originally posted by mechanic
the fire model is just right, and has been recently changed this way, for the better i would say.
Agreed. If you don't want to burst into flames... don't get shot :aok (or hang around Richard Simmons)