Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: WW on April 21, 2000, 06:51:00 PM
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I would like to enquire about a couple situations I have run into.
My First encounter with Hmble, I asked if I could engage, He agreed. I dropped on him and AirRev, shot me down!
When I asked Hmble what that was all about, he replied, "I pay him to keep my 6 clear"
Interesting training tactic.
Almost daily, I've come into the arena and found the runway egged. In my experience, this means you cant use it. I had the pleasure today of watching AirRev egg is from end to end in a 17 from very low altitude. When I asked Hmble if this was acceptable, he indicated it was fine as long as it didn't interfere with normal flight operations. I told him I was unable to take-off. He said he had just done so. So I tried. Ofcourse, I began taking damage. Then as I'm rolling down the runway, I loose all my gear in a spray of bullets from Furbalz who then circles to finish the job.
Today, practicing landings at an empty field, I landed, taxied into the hanger only to be shot by a spit taxiing behind me (it was Ace02)
My Friend Wiz who is just learning is completely fed-up with the arena after only 4 days.
I don't know what you guys call it, but the term unrelenting does come to mind. especially when a trainer is helping the process, "I pay him to keep my 6 clear"
In Hmbles favor, we did fly clear of AirRev and have a meaningful and productive one-on-one session.
So whats up with that?
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WW, it was av8r that got you way back when. he's a great guy who spends a lot of time in TA helping out/dueling/furballing. That was an inside joke and he immediately backed off.
Today, what I told you is that it's not a TOS violation (and i'm not an enforcer per se) to bomb a runway...you cant interfere with general flight op's is what i said. Now plenty of folks took of from A1 repeatedly so obviously there where very few problems. I spent at least 4 hrs in TA today and all in all was very friendly. Almost no vulching and certainly zero harassment that I saw.
Only issue i see is clarification of firing rules. To me plenty of room for everyone..i I do think bomber practice should be away from main flight area but there was no real damage that I saw.
To the best of my knowledge airRev did not drop again on A1. The vulching was very limited and everyone backed off when "warned". Only possible problem i'd agree with was Ace02..but that more of a rudeness issue. I didn't notice a lot of complaints...but then again I was "teaching"...and I'm using the term loosely (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...a good 2-3 hrs so I may of missed something.
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As for impact in the training area...if i'm a negative influence in there i'll be happy to step down at the request of any other trainer/AH staff member. I certainly do not want to impact this sim in any negative manner.
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hehe humble we all still love you relax (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I have brought this up in the past. What I feel we need is one more arena. This arena would be strictly a "Free For All" enviorment. This arena would provide non-stop action, where anything goes.
I have even thought that it would be a way for HTC to provide an intermediate price structure. $30 a month for access to all arenas. $15-20 a month for access to this "Instant Action Arena".
Personally I like the Free for All at times. It is certainly a nice change of pace from the MA. However; currently I am an Aces High Trainer and I typically look for players in need of help first. I engage in the Free for All mostly to pass the time and when I am pretty sure of what is going on.
I can't say that I have had any bad experiences in the TA, but I can very well see how it can get out of hand. What I typically see is players who are not yet fitting into the MA, but crave engagement. They really don't care who they offend, because at this piont they are just testing out the game.
This is like my brother who I was helping with the game for the first time. The first thing he wants to know is "How do I shoot the guns" and "What can I shoot them at?". Take offs, landings and BFM is secondary. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Good Luck in the Un-Friendly Training Skies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Just for the record , AirRev is not in our squad . There are lots of differant Air etc and we never have a problem with other like spelling names . The only way to find out is check the squad link or here .
www.airsquadron.com (http://www.airsquadron.com)
bty airsid and airgard are now flying AH . At least one more to come 8-).
spro <---- happy
(http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1589/airlogo.gif)
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Hmble,
Sorry if I used AirRev's name for the other scenario, Av8tr is a name I havn't seen much of. AirRev has been vulching me (and my friend who just joind) since day one. I think I might actually have him on film at it.. I'm not sure.
When I told you I would try taking off, Furbalz shot me rolling on the runway after I bounced out of the line of potholes. Then, while I sat there on the runway stopped, he circled back for to finish the job. Again, you where 7.0 away. I was also killed later in a hanger. All this while you where in the arena. YES, you couldn't see it all and NO you shouldn't be expected to see it all. BUT I do strongly object to your suggestions that it's not that bad in this and other threads.
Perhaps it's the difference in approach. Certainly, an inside joke like the one a few days ago is gonna leave an outsider wondering what the deal is right? My reaction to it was to wonder if I should try again. and remains so to this day.
Later today, when I came on, I noticed you where being more proactive and asking folks not to hit A1. Reasonable since a brand new individual is gonna come out there and not know what the heck is going on OR what to do.
I guess having only been there 5 days, and having gone through it, I'm a little sensitized to it. This stuff is BUSINESS AS USUAL and your inability to see it (as the only available authority in there sometimes) diminishes how big a problem it is.
Certaily, allowing your buddie to do a newbie like that for an inside joke says something about how the newbies are viewed.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think your a bad guy. Not at all. Hey, as the only one in there sometimes in authority, the vetrans think your fantastic. Unfortunately, the newbies being used for target practice don't think its so cool.
If your ever interested, I have films of me taking off and asking to not be attacked. I became a bloody magnet! I've got all kinds of films like that. Interesting that a newbies only here for 5 days should have so many films of something happening that rarely happens isn't it?
BTW, no one likes to be a snitch. No one generally reports it until they're completely ticked off. Or they just log off. I know thats how my buddy handles it. Then he comes to me and tells me how frustrating the arena was.
As for adding another arena to solve the problem, that may be nice, but I doubt vetrans go into the training arena and start hitting newbies just because they would like a nice free for all place. I think it's more about people who are tired of having to work for their kills and come into the training arena for some easy prey. Someone told me I should be honored that the people want to take me on. It's pretty hard to feel honored when Goldwing or someone else is sitting on the end of the strip in a panzer picking you off. (I think I have film of that too) or when people are taking advantage of the fact that your engaged in a fight to drop onto your six and put you down. The Av8tr insider joke is a case in point but there are plenty of others. One of the other trainers has been heard of a couple from me.
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-22-2000).]
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WW;
Have you tried changing fields and/or changing teams? Try going to a field in a teams land that is desolate. Most "Free for All'ers" will congregate at one airfield.
Sometimes this is a way to get the peace that you need. I often do this when working with some one, to get them off alone. This way I have fewer interuptions.
BTW look me up in the TA or the MA. I would be happy to help you out.
Good Luck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Hey Minotaur!
Actually, I mentioned that I flew to an empty field. In was an empty sector. Landed, taxied to the hanger and was followed.
So Yeah, I have tried that. My mistake was even taking off from A1. Ace02 went well out of his way for the kill.
The real problem seems to be noone asking if they can attack. They jsut do. You can't have a little one on one with someone to try to figure out what your doing right or wrong, because if you do it near A1, you get nailed by a third party. If you go to another field, it's empty. And most folks aren't gonna want to leave the collection of people to play with.
But if I want to practice my landings, Air to ground attacks, bombing, I can go to really remote fields for that and I'm generally OK. The targets are poor and a nice dummy tank range would be nice. But if I want to play with someone I didn't bring with me, I have to hang out at A1.
I must say, I was flying a 17 earlier today and found it really refreshiing when a fella asked if he could attack me. I told him it was OK but ended up augering the plane since I knew the other 4 dots in the area wouldn't leave it at just to the two of us.
Looks like the bulk of my training will be in MA
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You know WW--I would like to chime in on this one.
I will have to agree with you. I was getting ready for a duel yesterday and stepped in to the arena for a little practice. Posted what i wanted to do and decided that A1 best choice because of the altittude. This turned out to be a mistake (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It seems that everyone was flying there. No problem i say--i tell the guy to roll south climb to 17K and reverse and we'll cold merge at 15K. Ill go south and do the opposite. Well I get off the ground OK but he gets vulched on Take off. He gives up and tells me on prrivate a quick apology. The current train of thought was that 1 was a free for all base and you are subject to attack. Well I ask humble if he would like to do some merge's he says yea but in a minute--. I then just go along with the crowd. I even got new guys (no offence to you--I dont think you just no anybetter) that are shooting at me as we roll down the runway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thats right--two of us are taking off and the guy behind me is shooting at me.
I make a suggestion to him that we should get airborn before shooting at each other (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
OK having said all that--
questions--who decides what field will be the free for all field? Does the free for all folks have precedence over the folks wanting training? do the trainers actually have any authority here? Are they just helpers without any means to stop irrational behavior? Does the trainers have any tools to enforce ( ie--can you boot someone from the arena)
Finally--Is this the impression we (or HTC) wants to give new guys? They are attacked mercilously and do not know any "ettiquite" in the flight sim world. To them after flying in the TA they do not know what WWII air combat was (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) they do however get a few short moments of stick time before getting shot down. And when they complain they are quickly told to go to another field--this one is a FFA. So shouldnt the new guys be the center of attention?
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cammo.jpg)
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WW Mino is talking about the .move command you just type .move and the field number to go to a new field.If you have film of someone vulching you and you asking them not to send it to HTC they will deal with the person We have no real power in the arena except to ask thats it. This game will progress to the point were there will be CM's watching the arena and trainers will have powers to use in the training arena.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Trainers are like anyone else when it comes to powers. We have no ability to remove people, change the arena settings, etc. I didn't want this power before, but more and more I see it as a necessary evil.
This is my viewpoint of the TA, gathered in slice o' life we call the 8:30-11:30 PM EST time period...
There are always 12-20 guys on. Five will want help NOW. The rest will be at the default field in melee. This means I am juggling 5 conversations, trying to help one or more people, and watching the traffic buffer. (anyone wanting to see what it's like to be HT or Pyro should try this!)
Then comes the "Hey, let us out of the hangar!"
"Please don't vultch" says I.
And so on.
I have been there when WW is on, and he has a very valid point. He is a very good pilot AND an AW trainer, so he knows a bit about what he's talking about.
Now from a personal standpoint, people leave me alone more-or-less (except Jase, and he's a dog (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). Sometimes I pop on the runway at the main base and sit for a few to see who will strafe me. If/when that happens I will ask for that behavior to stop. If it doesn't I use the only power that is available to me- shoot the offender down. Every time they are caught in the behavior, down they go. The trouble is, this is tying up time that would be better spent in helping others. Last night was an example. I lift off, am talking to someone that had a joystick problem, and see tracers bounce around me. I looked back in time to see a B26 slicing in from the rear quarter. I was in a 1C, full rockets, so I dumped the rockets and barrel rolled around to a position right over his head. I dropped on him and let him have it. Flying around a few minutes later (with him promising I would not land) and I see the same B26 moving in from a low 11. I popped up, he passes under and assumes a six approach on B17 nearby. I hit him again.
"You cheater!" he yells.
"Why?"
"You ambushed me!"
"Didn't you try to ambush me? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)"
"Well, yeah..."
I don't think he was going to stop, and I could have easily killed him all night.
Here is the funny part of the whole night; at times the melee was "civilized" as in, everyone at A1 knew what was going on, and accepted it (I think Tern was a bit upset at times). I don't normally get involved in melees, preferring to watch the buffer and behavior, but I had some killers after my pelt (Citabria, Jase, Dogftr).
And it was fun.
Seems to me it works like this:
- Default fields will be FFA
- Anyone wishing for training needs to secure a trainer or someone that will help and move to a quieter field
- furballers should not follow trainees to quiet field
This has worked for me, the trouble is how would a new guy know this?
There is another solution to the problem; turn killshooter on in the TA. This type of abuse will drop to "0" then. Of course it will get in the way of training, but it may be necessary if people cannot cooperate. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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I recently posted on this as well. My advise :
1. Move to airfield not presently occupied.
2. Let any other pilots that show up at the airfield that you do not want to be bothered.
3. If they shoot you, tell them to go away.
4. if they don't or otherwise interfere -like continue to buzz you. Film it and send it to HTC.
I had a recent incident with this. I asked the offender to go away, but he continued. I was trying to practice slice-backs and had this annoying jerk on my 6 most of the time.
He flies for knights and will never, ever get a six clear from me.
Sour
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Sourkraut
JG-2 Richthofen (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/saurkraut.gif)
[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 04-22-2000).]
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deleted
[This message has been edited by Sharky (edited 04-22-2000).]
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trainers---plz dont take what i said as an attack on you. I think you guys are great. I just think the mentality about the Training arena needs some focus. I am in no position to do this I know. I am just the average joe with an opinion--disregard it if you disagree with me.
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cammo.jpg)
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Ammo
I don't think WW's post is/was "wrong" with regard to details however I do disagree with the perspective entirely. To me these were relatively isolated events, not a pattern of activity.
Personally I'm thrilled that some of the best sticks in the game can be found in the TA from time to time. Since they will almost universally crtique/comment on action this is a boon to any newbie. This is an combat sim, without someone to fight you cant learn. I'd hate to see the day when you had no one to practice against who would offer constructive advice.
Now, on the other hand harassment DOES happen and it does need to be delt with. Someone vulching (really vulching) or repeatedly stalking an unwilling foe can't be tolerated. I think I've seen two real incidents and intervened in both.
As a final thought ammo, last night after you called out your duel and it was interrupted...who did you bounce (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...would you call it 'harassment' I wouldn't. It was no big deal at all.
WW, sorry you don't like my sense of humor. As I stated earlier I do my best to maintain reasonable order while attempting to help those who are struggling with the learning curve in AH.
I believe that the TA is integral to the future of this sim. We are accumulating a force of experienced sticks beyond either AW or WB (IMO). Combine this with the sophistication of the FM and the barrier of entry is awful high. So far I think the TA is a great place for inexperienced..or experienced fliers to learn.
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That's the trouble, Ammo. How can we change it? Or more directly, how can anyone here change it?
It comes to this; you behave in the way you want others to model, whether they choose to follow or not. You try to exercise societal control by verbally asking for the behavior to stop. If it works, great. If not, there isn't much anyone can do but tape and send it in. If you have an arena full of people that are in the mindset "anything goes", that is what will happen.
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WW
>>allowing your buddie to do a newbie like that for an inside joke says something about how the newbies are viewed.<<
For the record, you weren't "set-up" by av8r and I. He and a few others "stalk" me all the time...and I'll look for them also. He bounced you, I let him know in a very polite way he was interfering (by accident) in a training session.
I would hate for av8r or any of the other regular's who help out in the TA to view there presence as being unwelcome.
As for how I view newbie's...I've carried my cpid since I picked it after a day of being hosed in the AW "newbie" arena by all the vets who got there rocks off stalking us "deer in the headlight's" types.
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Good thoughts. I did however bounce humble as he said. i didnt stop there either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I shot at all those that shot at me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dont know fellas. I hate to point this out. The TA in WBs--the trainers have control in there. However they have tools to enforce it too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) But a true training atmosphere is fostered there. you guys have all the talent you need here. and there are soem really good sticks that come in the TA too!
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cammo.jpg)
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OK,
For those who gave me .move instructions, you may want to read some of the later posts.
As for the definition of harrasment. Yeah Hmble, that is A definition of harrasement. But your definition allows 2 or more pilots to kill a person again and again without being asked to stop. In fact it allows the whole arena to do this to ine person.
My definition is a little broader. If a person can't have any peice even after having asked for it (remember some are just learing how to fly), that constitutes harrasement.
You indicated you had the same problems with airwarrior III and you seemed quite unhappy about the events you experienced. Well, firstly, You CAN'T get shot down in any of the AWIII training arena's. All you that happens is you see a message saying you got shot down in the buffer, and you ammo is completely replenished. Thats it, no real death. So your experience must have happened a long time ago. Secondly, if your getting harrassed, a report to the AWTC can get the offending individual barred from the training arena all together. What this all means is that I can take off regardless of vulchers. I can fly around and just ignore them cause they're not effecting me. eventually they got bored and go away. However, back to your unhappy experience in AWIII. Although that can't happen now as you described, welcome to the world that ALL newbies experience here at AH!
Now Hmble, about my sense of humour. Think about it. This is the first time you've told me it was a joke. THE FIRST TIME. Up till last night, to attack you meant to be killed by a third party. Make believe for just a second that your on the outside of that joke. How does it look? I understand NOW that it was a joke and wasn't intended, but it is still representative of the kinds of things I have been experiencing since the beginning, regardless of that particular situation being an accident, joke, whatever.
As for emailing films. I'm not in the habbit of complaining publicly. I did try mailing my complaint to 2 of the 3 HTC mailing addresses available on the site. I got the messages back as delivery failures with "Access Denied" as the reason. So much for sending anything to HTC.
Besides, the idea isn't to get people in S**T. It's really about ENFORCING some kind of etiquette. I don't want to get anyone booted, I just want a little sanity. Imagine if the police stopped enforcing laws in your area. Chances are you would start having problems and chances are it wouldn't be from the same person all the time. So your not being harrassed, right? Laws are great as are rules. But niether is of much use if their not enforced and enforcement builds an attitude in peoples minds that they behave or else, which means, less people intentionally break the rules.
I've Seen Kieren in the arena and I always notice Kieren asking people to behave (politely). This is how I knew Kieren was a trainer. until VERY recently, I have not been able to tell who is and who is not a trainer in the same way. I have to check the Roster. I think it's all Kierens fault for setting a standard that protects Newbies from what I define as Harrasement. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(Kieren, perhaps you can save yourself some work and call a all to swarm the offenders in the training arena. "OK Trainees.. Attack ID and keep him down till I say otherwise" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .Not really, but it's fun to think about.
Kieren was the first trainer I encountered and I expected all to be like that. I think Kieren has a good point with the self kill thing although I would add to it. In the non trainging arena's in AWIII, if you want to duel a contryman, you can type "/duel id" If they accept, you can kill each other without penelty. If they decline and you kill them anyway, You can loose your ammo for 24 hours. I think the /duel thing might add the control you need. it enforces the "ask before you attack" idea and allows people to fly together without being interfered with.
Now, AWIII has been around for a very long time, but things are well controled there and perhaps there are some helpful lessons to be learned. AW Trainers DO have the power to boot someone. But not only can users lodge a complaint, there are menu options RIGHT IN THE GAME for doing just that. Additionally, I just went through the extensive application to become an AWIII trainer. It took weeks as they checked AW records for the existance of any complaints or repremands. This speaks of an extensive effort on their part to insure people can enjoy their time in AWIII and play together nicely. This also insures that Newbies have a chance to get used to things. My first days where in a newbie free for all arena where after 10,000 points, you lost all ammo. I still went back to that arena later, but just to fly with the newbies.. I couldn't shoot them down. AH is a great game with tons of possibilities over and above what AWIII has. Newbies don't get the chance to enjoy ANY of them and I'm willing to bet that AH has already lost a fair number of customers (players) as a result. I know my friend is about ready to quit.
Remember, it's not all about one trainer or one incident. This thread is the resulting erruption from a buildup of problems. Kieren saw a smaller erruption in the training arena a couple days ago. Now we're on to the big one. Like I said earlier, some confront the issue and some just quit. Quiting would be my next logical step but I'm also fighting for the rest of the poor sobs who are just getted torn to sheds in there. It's simply isn't right.
Now later, after my first post last night, I went up in the TA again (When I got shot down in the hanger by Ace02) I did take off from A1 with film rolling (No attack!) Hmble asked someone to leave A1 alone. I circled to land at A1 (No Attack!) I took off again (No Attack!) I circled and landed again (No Attack!) and their where dots all around. This was a first for me and even though I did get nailed later in a hanger, I was VERY VERY surprised. In the extreme. WTG hmble.
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-22-2000).]
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-22-2000).]
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Well i think the training arena has and is a full flegded blast.
Some of the FFAs are just pure bliss.
But i think experienced players should set up a specific field thats not a default field, to FFA.
Some times newbies come in and make faux pas ,or they are so desperate to see something blow up rather than themselves they vultch or shoot on takeoffs from behind you or mI6 the field.
With some of the killers ffa 'ing in the last week it could be easy to see how a newbie jumping into the fray would feel 'picked on".
Experienced players who Free For All should police themselves. Help others when they ask.
99% of my experience in the Training arena has been positive. 1% Stunk because some fool was acting like one .
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Aces High Correspondent for www.dogfighter.com (http://www.dogfighter.com) (http://members.home.net/1baddawg/Sims/dog-bite.gif)
[This message has been edited by Baddawg (edited 04-22-2000).]
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Hey Hmble,
Heres a quote from Robert in the other etiquete discission. (I shoulda included this thread in there but I dont use these and didn't know how to respond to it at the time Doh)
"...one sure way to get pounced by everyone is to vulch or start whining over the radio. you will surely get bombarded by everyone wanting a piece of your panzy oscar........... "
This quote should provide you with some idea why you dont hear about the problems. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It is respesitative of some of the attitudes in there. I have gotten verbally dumpped on for asking people to stop.
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WW
The "newbie" arena is what I was referring to. back in the AOL days many players had multiple accounts and augered to keep points down.
Anyway I spent another 2-3 hours or so in the TA this morning, again very isolated problems.
Now your last item confused me, in the 1st i'm a problem, now I'm not. I'll always respond to requests to police the TA...in the 1st post you basically said i condoned improper behavior. The last said i intervened and it stopped.
I have no axe to grind with you or anyone else...I'm trying to respond to your critique of my actions in an open and even handed manner. Often there is only one trainer up and only so much can be expected.
My role as I see it is to help those who want to learn. I've never had a training session interrupted in a serious way. I hope i do a reasonable job as a trainer...if i'm a poor "policeman" I appologize.
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WW,
on a slighty different topic, I thought you did a great job with blueice today. Your filling the same roll as av8r RWY and many others are in the TA. To me it's the most important aspect of the arena..lot of us can kill the "newbie's"...it's those who take a moment to try and explain what's happening (and why) that make a positive differance.
Just realize that the folks you help who paint a bullseye on you later (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Wow... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Well Hmble,
In the first I was on the outside of your inside joke which set the stage. Built around that stage was the words, "I don't see things being that bad" and , "I'm not an enforcer" which when combined with the inside joke, suggested you may be turning a blind eye to it or allowing it.
Telling me, "I just took off and it was fine." when I reported AirRev had just egged the runway, didn't help matters either. Cause when I tried to take off, I lost tail gear and bounced all over the place until Furbalz finally shot the gear out from under me and I slid to a stop. As Furbalze blew past me he goes, "I don't see any craters" while I was surrounded by them and you directly in front of me 7.0 away. This all combined was not painting a pretty picture.
Through the discussion you have let me in on your joke. That changed things a lot. The rest of the discussion has been an effort to help you see what you don't, how bad the problem is. The last comments which confused you where an effort to show you what "Good" is, by way of real life example.
As for the AWIII newbie arena you flew in, that probably explains why they did away with it. Now all newbies end up in the AWIII training arena where you CAN'T be shot down no matter what. You have to crash to die.
As for how I was working with BlueIce and Dilbert, thanks I appreciate the comments. I don't think it's appropriate to just keep pounding some poor bugger without giving him something to help him fight back. ESPECIALLY on a 1 vs 1. But it took an hour of flying in circles watching the fight to find someone to go to another field with me. Even then, Aquadude tried to shoot me off the runway on takeoff. This illustrates the point that when you can get someone to another field, things can work out nicely but it's not always that easy.
Additionally, you would have noticed me politely telling BlueIce to be good. Tern had already complained about him killing folks on takeoff in the other discussion and he tried that with me at our own field twice in a row. Then tried to give me that febal, "I was only joking" bit. It was more like, "My gunnery needs work.".
And I have no idea what happened to Dilbert. After that last merge I was telling him what a great merge it was and he was gone. He had just up and left?!?! Perhaps he got booted.
I don't mind getting killed in a fair fight. Hell, BlueIce did me twice and I congradulated him. I mind getting killed by a third party whose interfereing in a fair fight. It disrupts the ideas/tactics I'm testing. And I Friggen HATE getting fragged either rolling down the runway or just off of it with no E. That is simply a total and complete pain in the six.
Anyway, I didn't think you where a bad guy, our lesson together was a good one which added more confusion later. The joke I wasn't privy too said, "bad guy" (I didn't know it was a joke or that you told him to stop) but the training said, "Good guy". A few other situations suggested "Bad guy" so colour me confused until you started explaining things a bit.
Face it, had there been no joke, had you really had a buddy clearing your six as a trainer, that definately would have made you a bad guy. I was new and it was my first encounter with you. Perhaps it was a joke best left for someone who knew you a little better.
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-22-2000).]
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WW,
I certainly understand your perception of my comment regarding av8r's bounce...but we went on and had zero problems...had you expressed any irritation I'd of explained it better.
I didn't see any bomb damage at 1 when I took off, niether did anyone else...only thing I can think is we have 3 actives now since hangers are up. I always go N or S..you use hanger to launch?
Your following comment sums it all up for me...I don't think it's appropriate to just keep pounding some poor bugger without giving him something to help him fight back...anyone with that attitude is one of the good guys in my book. It's why i look at all the sticks that come in and furball as a welcome addition. It's a very small percentage of players who cause problems.
As I stated earlier your comments and facts were not without foundation, but our perception obviously differs. The truth probably lies somewhere in between.
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If i was a trainer (and dont want to be). I would set the session up on H2H. No destractions.
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Funny, I see one simple solution for this.
There is a reason Killshooter is on in the main. I think it needs to be on in the TA as well. It prevents all kinds of dweebery.
Those who want to FFA can still arange all the fights they want between 2 fields.
Trainers no longer will get interupted without notice.
Also a trainer should also be able to kick anyone out of the arena instantly, and repeat as needed. Otherwise as a policeman, he has NO authority. He should also be able to have someones acct suspended for a month on a single email or phone call. The ultimate big stick.
If all you want is a free for all go to main or H2H. Personally I tend to stay out of the TA for the exact same reasons WW explains.
If I want a fight I want it fair, 10k coalt, cold merge with no interuptions.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, & maybe I'm used to the TA in WB. That one was run with an iron hand firmly nestled into a velvet glove.
Exactly the way it should be in MY opinion.
If people must have a FFA arena, give it too em. No ack, no Killshooter, 10k bases, no rules, fly strickly at your own risk. Label it accordingly both inside with a startup banner & in the arena list.
Frankly hot sticks who stalk & vulch people
are bully's plain & simple. They have no place being in the same arena with new pilots. ANYONE who see's this kind of behavior and condones it is no better IMO.
Leave the TA for Training for pete's sake!
------------------
Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cghosth.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Ghosth (edited 04-23-2000).]
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Again, thanks for the comments Hmble, it's appreciated. And yeah, the truth is probably somewhere in between, but keep in mind your days in AWIII newbie arena. To the newbie in AH, the truth is considerably worse. ESPECIALLY when they're comming out right in the middle of it and don't know how the map or .move command works.
As for my irritation, that was something that built up incident by incident, building on an already confused perception of your role in the whole mess. Like I said, put enough of the pieces together and it doesn't paint a pretty picture. I'm glad I posted.
To answer you question about which runway I used, the N & S runway was hit and thats what I use. You where 7.0 away. I suspect you got out just before the 17 came in cause I saw him come in and drop (Thought my ability to see the bombs fall was cool). When I tried to take off, I lost my tail gear and bounced around. If that isn't consistant with craters let me know, but I think it is. Furbalz typed that he didn't see any craters after he shot my wheels out from under me, but I think he was just trying to be cute, they where along the entire runway. I doubt you could have seen them from 7.0 out though. I've seen a lot of this when AirRev was around before and from 4000 feet up, you can't see them.
I think Ghosth makes some useful points. As usual, its the few jerks who ruin things for everyone else. It takes an Iron hand to make sure that doesn't happen, and a velvet glove to make sure the innocent errors don't result in disgruntled people.
I still think the Killshooter with a "/duel ID" command would satisfy most needs in there. It enforces and "Ask before you attack" idea and forces people to respect other peoples wishes without a lot of policing. If you get into having to up from different fields, it might as well be MA.
If one needs a reminder how much we need to enforce "respecting others" is needed, just look at the earlier post with the comment about killing Panzy oscar..S. I think some folks forget they're supposed to play TOGETHER. Not much has changed since we where 10 has it??.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-23-2000).]
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-23-2000).]
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Very few of the hot sticks "stalk" or vulch anyone. I had great "lessons" from histro and Jase today. Got a chance to learn stuff i'd of never picked up in the MA. It's a training arena and as long as these guys are willing to critique/comment they can hose me all day.
I do agree that some kind of "enforcement" power is needed...and i'll enforce any TOS AH posts for the TA...but...I love the TA how it is...least when i'm flying. Now, maybe it reflects the times I'm up...or how I "police" it...but with a few exceptions..and yes incidents do happen..It's a great place to learn.
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I have not flown in the training arena in Aces High, only in main arena but I was a trainer for several years in AW. What I suggest may not be on target, but in the training arena make planes when shot not show damage, ie..die, but a kill message would appear, when enough damage occurred. This takes the fun out quickly for people looking for kills but very helpfull in training. The new guy's can see that they got a kill and for the trainer, he does not have to take off again. The only time a crash/kill would be necessary would be if out of fuel.
The other suggestion is for trainers to be given ejection powers from the arena. This would help with potty mouths (Main Arena) or people set on disrupting a training session. The trainer before ejection would have to have film. Most people who are asked once, stop. For the truely offensive, kick them out for a set period. For most flight sims, trainers are considered business partners/associates and are understanding of their responsibility.
Big Mac
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<RANT MODE>
Pyro has stated that instructors will have the eject command soon. Once trainers have this power it will be possible to boot the cherry-pickers who kill people as soon as they leave the runway.(easymo) If your not in the arena to either recieve training,or volunteering to help out new flyers-YOU HAVE NO REASON TO BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE! The arena isn`t listed as "The grabass cherry picking furball and do what you want to the newbies arena"-it`s listed as the Training Arena. When your called on wrong behavior-your response shouldn`t be to call an instructor a "whiner" or other derogatory comments. (easymo) You should shut up and leave,if I sound pissed off-it`s because I AM! It`s difficult enough to bring new people up to speed on flight commands,setting up sticks,views,etc-without having to worry about <BAH> scorepotatos/cherry pickers on your six.
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If i was a trainer (and dont want to be). I would set the session up on H2H. No destractions.
This takes the cake-again,whats the name of the arena,and why should instructors and students have go H2H to avoid all the complained about behavior? I`ve already had to move to a different field before because of you specifically easymo,I`m singling you out because your one of the people who propogate this kind of Bull Sh*t in the T/A, your assinine remark above really hacks me off,why don`t YOU take it to H2H? Some of the guys in the T/A pulling this bone-headed crap have the excuse of being new to the game,and don`t have a clue as to proper etiquette,you on the other hand have been around for awhile-both here and in Warbirds and should know better by now. Again-I`m not saying you shouldn`t come in for training,you definately need help with your gunnery-(Tour 3 0.0406) (Tour 2 0.0311) but not at the expense of people trying to grasp the concepts of the game. (http://www.geocities.com/~tomscar/deadface.gif)
<RANT OFF>
[This message has been edited by weazel (edited 04-23-2000).]
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Weasel,
I do believe sir that you have been mis- named! hmm Thumper suites you best.
Nice to see the TA will get the power they need and nice to see that my whining about being vulched isn't considered a "Panzy" act.
BTW hmble, I just figured out late last night what the N, H & S squares where all about on the lower left corner of the clipboard. I never new beofore and always hit the top one or H if it was the only one available.
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Weazel's outline of easymo's conduct clearly illustrates a problem exist's...I guess I've been fortunate to have avoided that level of harrassment. Under those circumstances I'd agree..Ban em..or hunt em down till they leave.
I'd like to pass along part of a private conversation that occurred after this thread started. The pilot involved would be familiar to any who spent time in the TA. He related stories of multiple incidents of folks asking to be left alone..then bouncing others..then complaining when they get shot down. His concern was avoiding being percieved in a negative way by the community.
I'd noticed his recent absence from the TA and as far as I'm concerned it would be a loss for all if he chose to avoid it.
As a side note Visconti and others spent plenty of time working in rookland without a problem...no one seems to have bothered them at all.
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WOW, thats a new one!
I flew in there last night, and was hanging around way above the action waiting for someone to take me up on my offer to go to another field.
Poll16, Sky-something or other, Zig-Something or other, Furbalz and a couple others where in full furbal mode. There was a major battle going on over the tank base and the amount of swearing and name calling going on was unreal. Sexually derogitory names where being hurled at Poll16, Sky-something or other was being told where to go, all kinds of it. I hope no kids play this game.
Then I watched as they all started the air to air battle. PJ was flying along (had been for some time) when Aquadude (I assume a new guy) jumped him without warning. Then someone bounced him, and the chain continued till they where all taking off again. Not a single word of, "Can I attack" or , "Here I come" was spoken.
PJ had been down there flying south of the field, trying to land his 38 for a half an hour or so. Totally out of it and minding his own business.
BTW. Moving to this base where the M16's can't get to the runway was sheer genius.
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-23-2000).]
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Weazel. Ive ben in the TA maby 3 times all togeather. During that session i was getting vulched ON the runway.
I am happy to see they have someone to teach the newbie,s how to whine. You are the perfect choice.
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i love the way my post is reflected on every other post. the whinners that i talking about are the ones that attack with out asking......then when you shoot them down here it comes .....YOU HAVE TO BE CHEATING BLA BLA BLA ......if this isn't panzy then i don't know what is.
the whinners are the ones that cant get off the runway because 5 ppl got vulched by him and the ppl are trying to keep him on the ground so he will lay of the vulching.
then he comes over the radio why don't you quit vulching me so i can play(he say)
soon as you let them up there right back to the same old thing vulching and disruption.
the ppl that use the arena for something productive,more power to you.
other ppl seem to think that the vets should stay out. i myself like to play with ppl that can fly and when the vets come into the TA (KIEREN,MOSS,NASH) ill ask them every time there up to fight. IF YOU FLY WITH THE BEST YOU FLY LIKE THE BEST.
Some ppl seem to think that the newbies should be the only ones in the TA. I learn something everytime i go in there so i guess im still a newbie.
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Robert-
Sorry to have misunderstood you. In the current context, it seemed you were unsympathetic to WW, who does make valid points. As your comments are directed at others, I see what you mean.
Cheers!
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Robert,
I read your post here and in the other forum. Obviously what you MEANT to say is not what got posted.
The quote I posted here was a direct copy paste and I was careful not to leave anything out that would change it's context.
I even went so far as to look for followup posts to your statement for signs of a correction. All I really found was Kierens polite condemnation of it in the other thread.
It was not my intention to make you look bad. It was my intention to show some of the attitudes that existed. Your post indicated a negative attitude towards whiners but didn't make any distinction and anyone getting bounced regularly who complains would be classed as a whiner. I know I have been jumped for whining myself.
It's unfortunate that that your post didn't portray your true meaning and I for one hope you'll accept my thanks for clearing that up.
I know I've seen a few of the whiners you speak about as well.
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-23-2000).]
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Easymo,
ummm...
I don't know what you and Weasel are talking about specifically but your comments have a more generalized ring to them.
So what your saying is I'm Weasels Student?
I'm just a newbie whiner?
Because your post suggests that this is what you believe.
Have you mistakingly miscommunicated yourself out of anger or do you really mean those comments you've made?
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-23-2000).]
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WHAT THE F*CK IS ALL THIS WHINING ABOUT?
99% OF THE TIME THERE ARE *NO*, REPEAT, *NO* PROBLEMS IN THE TA.
I have been spending quite a bit of time in the TA, and have been having a blast practicing 1 on 1 duels and also engaging in the occasional FFA that erupts around F1. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
There are quite a few vets and really good sticks who hang out in there, as well as newbies who are getting their first taste of simulated air combat. I have learned a lot, and I think, helped teach a lot, while in there.
From what I've seen in dozens of hours in there, when the Trainers are teaching the beginners, they are NOT disturbed.
In fact, I, and other "vets", regularly help out the trainers and answer the beginners' questions, serve as targets, or have newbies "join" up in our cockpits in order to help them become familiar with AH's flight model and ACM basics.
So, LIGHTEN UP. If you get shot down "by accident" while in training, politely ask to be left out of the FFA, and folks will respect your request. (moving to a remote field is not a bad idea either) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Above all, have FUN in there and leave your stress in the Real Life Workplace where it belongs.
BTW, Thanks for the kind words Hmble. You, Kieren, and most of the other Trainers have real class, and are doing a great job for the AH community through your dedication and service. <S>
Av8r
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Yup, here we go again. Newbies are whiners.
I was just in the arena. I took off, and maintained autoclimb. Never moved, just watched. Nash drops in behind me and shoots me down.
When I tell him it's not a FFA arena, he argues that it is. Then starts telling me I'm whining and giving me "Whaaaaa"
That is not a training arena. Sorry. And no one sees it that way becuase it isn't strictly enforced.
I've gotten complaints about Nash before and that was part of the reason I went to A1. he was there and I wanted to see what he'd do.
Sure enough, kill anything that moves no matter what and call them whiners when you tell them its not a FFA.
Oh and by the way Av8tr, I sent my buddy (Wiz) over to read the posts telling him that this whole idea of whiners was not supported by the experienced guys.
I'll be advising him that this was a total misconception. There's no training arena here.
As for Stress, Your right! Your absoutely right. Who the hell needs to try to make the training arena good for the newbies right? They're just a bunch of friggin whiners anyway right? Nice little targets to bounce at will. Your right, I don't need to waste my time here. It's much easier to tell those who complain to me about it that HTC and the users of the training arena think newbies are just a bunch of whining babies so if your having trouble in there, just dont go.
That should be great for business.
you heard em Wiz, I wouldn't waste any more time in the FFA arena as it might as well be called.
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-24-2000).]
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Whoah.
I will address this fully tommorrow.
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WW,
No one bothered us at all during our training session. While I was there the TA was fine. Only the 1 base was a FFA area. I noticed zero "harassement"...from the buffer it appeared a singular "vulch" occurred (JAS). After JAS asked to be left alone taking off I heard no further complaints from him...and later he was begging for folks to engage him.
I applaud your efforts in the TA over the weekend and do hope I was able to help Wiz in at least a small way. Personally, the best thing for him now is to have folks like NASH pound him a bit. Nash is not a vulcher, I've never seen him strafe the runway. Wiz was instructed by me to mix it up and work on his views. I told him that at his level dieing wasn't a problem..to work on "seeing" the fight so he could begin to develope the SA required to dogfight. Now without people in the FFA...hows he gonna do that.
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Nash's post from the other thread.
The whole things nothing but a big joke.
---edit-----
hrmph.. another thread just caught my eye. Just found this forum - but yegads - sure is heavy in here huh?
I'll post my thoughts there - cuz it looks like my name's been brought up. <sigh> hehe
But let us not fool ourselves. These are dark and trying times gentlemen. The TA frought with peril, greed, seal clubbin' and just downright pure eeeevil. The strong prosper, the meek perish in glowing balls of engine fire.
wotevah.
Most people get it, some don't, and some refuse to. I'll post my thoughts over there.
It's 5am and I got an appointment with bed.
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A second comment here, when I stopped in last night (10pm or so PST) there were 5 players logged in..it grew to 12-15 quickly with no trainer present. I stayed off the buffer for a good 5 minutes and saw zero problems reflected on the buffer. I saw zigrat Dukemskt and others helping and commenting. Later NASH showed up and joined the commentary.
I do know this, right now if I wasn't a trainer I wouldn't set foot in the TA. I wouldn't bother with the attitude and BS there. The thought that a large number of the vets are feeling the same way saddens me, it's a better place with them involved.
I'm still wondering how we get combat training without the combat part.
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I spent another 3 hours with Wiz last night showing him how to loop, roll and bank. He didn't have it all down. Wiz was the "Buddy" who told me Nash was attacking him last week. He said he couldn't get off the field because of it, at that time.
But hey, I think we've got this solved. Nash is right, it's not a training arena. its an FFA. That was the focus our our difference of opinion in the TA. And brand new people have the honour and privledge to come out at FFA central (A1) where they can help to imrove the gunnery skills of people like Nash. (After lineing up on me, he took the time to nose down again to get closer before opening fire. It was quite commical the trouble he went to for the perfect shot)
I think you summed it up in the other thread Hmble, As an FFA it is a place where they can learn fast. Learn that flight games are not for them because they suck at them.
Additionally, the lack of a clear decision about what that room is, just makes more problems. Nash and I would never have had the difference in opinion (and thus wouldn't have started his smartmouth routine) if it was clear that it WAS an FFA or NOT.
I just don't know how you enforce rules of engagement in an FFA. The two ideas seem in complete conflict.
Now, in anticipation of the all to common, "Whining cause he got shot down Whaaa". I could care less if I get shot down. Lets face it, I sat there watching him 'TEE' me up for a good minute or so. I watched the spray of bullets missing all over the place till he finally hit enough to damage the plane. I had been watching him make his approach from 7.6 out. (nothing wrong with my SA). Through the whole thing, I didn't move. Yeah, I hate it so much, I sit there and watch it happen. The fact is, I was expecting it and waiting for it. I call it the TA Rope-a-Dope. Catches the cherry pickers everytime.
I hate the idea of newbies getting bounced by people without the intestinal fortitude to go find a target that at least represnts a small challenge. But no, even after I suggested to Nash, "Didn't you think I might be AFK?" his response was, "I don't care, it's a war in here <G>"
So FFA it is.
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-24-2000).]
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Hmble,
That brings us back to the beginning doesn't it. How newbies can get bounced on the field, jumped when asked not to be, etc, with a trainer in the room.
It's not a training arena. It's an FFA. Kieren mislead me when he told me I should ask before attacking.
So here's a question for you. If FFA is such a wonderful training tool and helps the newbie learn so much faster, why not train right over A1? Why was Av8tr wrong to clear your 6? Hey the newbie needs to learn SA too!
It wouldn't have anything to do with learning ONE thing at a time would it instead of having to deal with it all at once.
Nope, lets face it. As a newbie in AH, my understanding of the words, "Training Arena" on the menu where incorrect. In AH, "Training Arena" means FFA.
I submit Hmble, Your right. I'm wrong. FFA it is.
In which case Easymo shouldn't been penalized either. The man is just doing what everyone else does, and what you yourself support. He's just playing in the FFA. "Free for all" which means, that anything that enters the arena is a target, including instructors and students. regardless of the circumstances. So you can't fault the man for following the rules you have endorsed and promoted. He's not doing anything wrong in the FFA. Nor was Nash, he killed a moving target! Moving streight and not turning at all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (lol) but moving none the less. Nash is also right when he says some people just don't get it. It's an FFA. It's just the sign on the door thats wrong. Us idiots who ask before we attack and like the same in return, What a bunch of fools!
I am by "whining" about it! Why didn't someone just tell me the sign on the door was wrong?
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-24-2000).]
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WW,
I do train right at the spawning base, and I've had no real problems. Our session occurred right at the spawn point without a problem after the initial bounce.
Now, if you auto takeoff and fly up...you'll eventually get bounced. That's what you wanted right..you were trolling for it.
It's obvious that tension's are growing over the FFA aspect of the arena. I think it's a very welcome addition to the TA mix. NASH is certainly in no need of padding his ego, he already resides near the top of the food chain. Last I saw he and Zigrat were going to do some 1 on 1's.
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Hmble... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I already said, Your absolutely right.
It's an FFA. Not a training arena. I'm wrong.
Your right! Your Right!
And Yes, I trolled to see if Nash really was the kind who would shoot down a newbie just minding his own business. But again, I had the foolish impression that this kind of activity was not acceptable in the "TA".
Nash is just playing the game like the rest of them. Now I know that. Thanks for clearing that up.
"No problems after the initial bounce" . (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) LMAO. I love how everyone saying there is no problem talks about those one or two bounces EVERYTIME without fail...LMAO. It's an FFA, thats to be expected... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm not upset or excited, not now that I understand it's an FFA. It's just hilarious how everyone talks about no problems "After" they got bounced. Everyone mentions that unfair bounce, but "I dont see a problem"..LMAO
Biggest forums here are on etiquette. This one grew over my long weekedn and there's no problem (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) LMAO
There's a big problem.. The name on the door is wrong. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-24-2000).]
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Originally posted by humble:
WW,
It's obvious that tension's are growing over the FFA aspect of the arena. I think it's a very welcome addition to the TA mix.
A welcome addition? Now granted it can be fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) but I must asume you mean that the new guy (or girl) gets an idea of how to survive in the main Arena. This is where I disagree.
A new pilot would be better armed with a trainer giving them the proper training on Basic ACM and Energy mangement. Learn the capabilities of their aircraft, Situational Awareness, and effective evasives.
I think that WW has made his point (and beyond--dead horse) but I agree with some of his points. The TA needs a "training atmosphere". It needs a schedule. I dont see a problem with the FFA during off hours of a schedule. And I dont see a problem with pilots goin off to another field and doing their own thing. I think that A1 should be the Main training field--due to the advantages of its altitude. But whatever trainer is on duty or volunteering his time should have total control of the field he has. he should dictate the training.
DISCLAIMER~ This is my Opinion and only my opinion. I am not a trainer.
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cammo.jpg)
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Ok THIS is rediculous. I'm having a very hard time avoiding the temptation to RANT in the biggest way here. WW - I'm sorry, but you must have a couple hundred posts here, probably havan't left the computer all day for clicking refresh and waiting for the next rebuttle, and I think I have a pretty good idea of the kind of person you are. What to do? Should I make poor woe is me, put upon WW feel all rosy and happy inside? Should I say "Oh - I'm sooo sorry, it was a misunderstanding - let's talk this through".. or something. Nuh uh. I've seen yer type, and you get a certain satisfaction by bangin' yer head against a wall. Guys like you aint never really happy unless they're unhappy. That's my observation and I'm stickin' with it.
Now... this whole thing strikes me as just silly. There are... ok WW, this could get complex so I'll type s l o w l y for you... ready? There are SIXTY FOUR some odd bases in the training arena. That's right! Sixty-four of the damn things! They're EVERYWHERE! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Now... here's where it gets tricky... Only ONE of these bases is what we like to call a FFA (that means Free for All). Ok so far? Good. Now - what happens at the FFA base is, you guessed it, a good 'ol FFA. I suppose I should describe what that is for you. You take off, fly to where the others are fighting, and join in. There are unwritten, but fairly common sense rules to this, of course.
Ya don't vulch.
If yer upping just behind another plane, turn and get seperation before firing.
If ya see a trainer hovering overhead (kieren, humble etc.) answering questions, don't attack them.
Do not whine or complain. Ask questions instead.
When someone asks a question, answer.
Hmm.. that's all I can think of off the top of my head. See? It's fairly loose. Now to address your issues WW. Does one need to ask permission to shoot someone down? "Excuse me Mister P51 - would it be ok for me to fire at you?". Gosh man, do I really need to talk on this? That's ludicrous. There are some 12 guys fur ballin' it and we need to have a discussion before we go guns on eachother?
Duels. "Please don't shoot me and so-and-so, we are dueling". Yah? Well this is where that 64 base thing comes in. Why in the world do two people need to duel at THE ONE, SINGLE, ONLY, FFA BASE? Go elsewhere - it's a couple clicks away and you will NOT be disturbed. I fly with plane-type icons on, not names. This is to see what kinda plane's I'm engaged with. Now - do I really need to cycle the icons to name and back again, then cross reference these names on a pad of paper I keep beside my computer of those requesting immunity as they are dueling? Bah. Please - go elswhere. This is not a dueling field, it is not a training field, it is a FFA field. Comprende?
Which brings us to the Training part. Ya really gotta hand it to the trainers WW, they're no fools. See - what happens when they are training someone? They move... here it is again... TO ONE OF THE SIXTY-THREE BASES THAT ARE NOT BEING USED AS A FFA BASE. These trainers are fantastic, helpful, level-headed. Go ahead and ask for help - they'll be there inna heartbeat. The "training" element in the "training arena" is most certainly there. I see a session or two going on all the time. They are not being disturbed because...here we go again... THEY ARE NOT TRAINING PEOPLE AT A FFA BASE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Man, I *hate* gettin' worked up like this. It's sunny out, I got the day off, and here I am spending a half hour, bordering on fuming mad, because of one guy who's taken aim at me. Ignorance gets my goad like nuthin' else. The Traing Arena has been so much fun, and obviously there are misunderstandings - but christ... Lighten' up WW. Yer makin' the place out to be some kinda horribly failed experiment. SAVE THE TA! SAVE THE TA! Feh... It's actually quite an enjoyable place... but something tells me you'll never really be happy - and you quite like it that way, don't ya? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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You said it Nash!
I agree 100%.
And, I WILL CONTINUE TO ENJOY flyin in the TA and I WILL NOT let this stupid and pointless "discussion" ruin my fun.
Weather it's helpin out with teaching a newbie, or doin "for fun" duels with the trainers when they are "off duty", or goin h2h with the likes of Nash, Citabria, and several other GREAT GUYS who hang out in there with me, or even...(Heaven forbid!)...
partaking in a FreeForAll at F1, I'll be having a good time and releiving some of my REAL LIFE STRESS.
So I'll prolly be there tonight as usual, and if WW is in there, and if he POLITELY asks not to be repeatedly kilt by me...well..I just MIGHT let him fly unmolested, depending of course upon his INEVITABLE response to this, and every other post in this thread. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
heheh.
Av8r
"keep the stress in RL where it belongs"
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Sorry to hear Reading is not you strong suite. If it where you might have noticed that YOU nave been noted for breaking one of the rules you noted. but heck, you don't care anyway.
As for Icons, I had no idea one could switch it to a plane type. I'm a Newbie moron! And moveing to new fields, cool. Your at the hanger telling all the newbies how to do that RIGHT MORON!
And Av8tr is right in there ready to get his vengence on this newbie by harrassing same. And all these folks are buddies with Hmble. Sounds like a cool click to me which I guess also reflects well on the first items in this discussion.
Actually Nash, since your not the real thinkin type, allow me to spell it out for you.
If you tick off the newbies, they don't come back. Hence, no players, hense no one to play with, hence HTC looses a fist full of cash and no AH.
Sorry Nash, more of that readin stuff and big words too!
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-24-2000).]
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Hell screw it,
I'm not gonna bother with this place anymore. It's dead anyway, just hasn't fallen over yet.
I'm cancelling my count. Thanks Nash, Av8tr and the head of the pack, Hmble for that one.
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If i was being polite I'd say I'm sorry to see you leave...however I feel like answering this one personally.
Don't let the door hit you in the Ass.
I now revert to my politically correct form.
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"Sorry to hear Reading is not you strong suite."
I get by. Is grammer yours?
"If it where you might have noticed that YOU nave been noted for breaking one of the rules you noted."
Nope - I haven't. I'd like you to bring in this Wiz person you keep talking about... and have him decribe this alleged incident. Forgive me for forgetting what exactly it is I'm being accused of.
"but heck, you don't care anyway."
As a matter of fact I do. I *enjoy* my time in the TA. I want to *continue* to enjoy my time in the TA. It's a great atmosphere. Why do ya feel the need to stink it up so bad?
"As for Icons, I had no idea one could switch it to a plane type. I'm a Newbie moron!"
Er... that was *supposed* to be funny right? Actually, yes - alt-I toggles 'tween names/plane type/off. I'm a moron for not knowing that you didn't read the readily available and extensive help files included with this sim? So I'm supposed to be flying around trying to read yer mind, lookin' for gaping holes in yer knowledge on accounta the fact that you were too lazy to help yourself?
"And moveing to new fields, cool. Your at the hanger telling all the newbies how to do that
RIGHT MORON!"
Heh. "All newbies please form a line here - we are going to explore the fabulous new world of changing fields". Ya know what? Yer just.... ah nevermind. Anyways, no. Newbies, unlike yerself, are really quite easy to distinguish. How so, you may ask. Because they usually aren't so full of piss that they actually ask questions of people. They are polite. They are there because they need help. Trainers descend on these guys like flies, and next thing ya know - they are back the next day with 1000x the knowledge you managed to dig up in the one and a half weeks of attitude.
"And Av8tr is right in there ready to get his vengence on this newbie by harrassing same. And all these folks are buddies with Hmble. Sounds like a cool click to me which I guess
also reflects well on the first items in this discussion."
Yer just mumbling at this point - did u have one? Sorry, I seemed to have missed it... I have an excuse though. I am a MORON. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"Actually Nash, since your not the real thinkin type, allow me to spell it out for you."
That would be just dandy WW, please, I think at this point I really *do* need you to spell it out for me.
"If you tick off the newbies, they don't come back. Hence, no players, hense no one to play with, hence HTC looses a fist full of cash and no AH."
Hmm... this reminds me of a few places I've worked at. There'd be the odd person or two who would take any opportunity to complain, point fingers, and generally just cast a pall over an otherwise great place to be a part of. That wasn't exactly good for business. Messes with the moral. Turns the place into a drag.
Sure - "ticking off the newbies" isn't a good thing. When it comes to my personal conduct, my conscience is completely clear. I'll dispute your claims to the contrary and I will *continue* to dispute them. When it comes to other people's conduct, I have to be honest with ya man... I must be wearing blinders cuz I just aint *seeing* these horrible acts of which you speak.
It's unfortunate though. How easy it could have been for your experience to be so much different than it appears it now is. Man, when I was a newbie, it was probably the best period of time in my whole flight-sim uhm... career (insert more appropriate word here). You probably aren't gonna listen to this advice, but here it is anyways.
Try to cease alla this nonsense. Come at this thing again with a fresh set of eyes, a fresh set of ears. Try to renew your passion for what brought you to Aces High in the first place. Marvel at the masters, annoy them with your questions. Share the things you're learning with people at the same level as you. Make a mental note to improve on your weaknesses. Relish a well executed manuever that would have been impossible only a week before. Set goals, and meet them. Ask, ask, ask. Read. Ask again.
Ask any old hats 'round here what the most rewarding time has been, and they'll tell you it's when they were newbies. The sad thing is... ya can never go back. I *miss* being a newbie. Please, WW, stop this garbage and relish this time.
"Sorry Nash, more of that readin stuff and big words too!"
Enough. Please.
Nash
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Hmm.. too late. In that case - what hmble said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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WW,
>>I don't know what you guys call it, but the term unrelenting does come to mind. especially when a trainer is helping the process<<
>>Later today, when I came on, I noticed you where being more proactive and asking folks not to hit A1.<<
>>Now later, after my first post last night, I went up in the TA again (When I got shot down in the hanger by Ace02) I did take off from A1 with film rolling (No attack!) Hmble asked someone to leave A1 alone. I circled to land at A1 (No Attack!) I took off again (No Attack!) I circled and landed again (No Attack!) and their where dots all around. This was a first for me and even though I did get nailed later in a hanger, I was VERY VERY surprised. In the extreme. WTG hmble.<<
>>Anyway, I didn't think you where a bad guy, our lesson together was a good one which added more confusion later. The joke I wasn't privy too said, "bad guy" (I didn't know it was a joke or that you told him to stop) but the training said, "Good guy". A few other situations suggested "Bad guy" so colour me confused until you started explaining things a bit.<<
>>Again, thanks for the comments Hmble, it's appreciated. And yeah, the truth is probably somewhere in between, but keep in mind your days in AWIII newbie arena. To the newbie in AH, the truth is considerably worse.<<
>>And Av8tr is right in there ready to get his vengence on this newbie by harrassing same. And all these folks are buddies with Hmble.<<
WW, are you a drug user by chance?
I do have a "real life", I've found AH to be a blast and jumped on the offer to help out. I'm one of many who are trying to help. I never met av8tr or any of the other TA regulars (with exception of JASE) till 2 months ago. I've done my best to treat you with respect and explain my actions. You are only interested in spreading falsehoods and creating problems...what a sad life you must lead.
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This thread began with the legitimate complaints of a customer who is "helping" beginners learn and love AH.
The thread degraded into personal attacks?
As a result I have lost a squaddie and one of the best wings I have ever seen.
I am not happy.
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- Voss -
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Voss I won't get into this too deeply as I respect you and have had many a good time flying with/against you in the MA.
WW, for whatever reason is blowing this whole thing completely out of context. There it is.
I'm sorry you lost a wingman. He said he's only been in AH fer one and a half weeks... is this correct? Anyways, yes, it's unfortunate. But his problems do not accurately reflect the situation in the TA.
I'm sorry it lead to his leaving, but - and this is just my take on it - he would have found *some* reason for getting upset, over something, with the same result. It happened to be the TA.
You should actually frequent the TA some. I know the newer folk would love for you to share your experience/knowledge with them.
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Please, take this at face value, and not as a podium discussion...
I see this as human nature, Nash. Machismo gets in our way a lot, too. I have never been in the TA, except to check the roster. It may be a good idea for me to do so.
WW has only been known to me for a week or so. He'll get over this, I'm sure. Look at the incident as cause and effect. WW saw something he really liked (AH) and tried to share his god-given-talent with some newcomers (perhaps personal friends). Frustrated in his efforts he posts about his experience, and is not well received. Further, the topic degrades into personal attacks.
It's not HTC's fault, it's not your fault. It's human nature and inevitable.
The written word is imprecise, at best, in conveying our feelings. Someone you would otherwise like can piss a reader off just by using a few too many negatives. I can see a newcomer getting really frustrated, and leaving the online flight realm after being berated by guys that live on high protein diets and air combat. I can see it very easily. I expect it to happen again. But, it doesn't belong under the heading "Help and Training" and should have been handled differently.
I respect you all in the air (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and will be more then happy to fly with/against you anytime.
This thread did not make me happy, however. I hope we can learn from it and move on.
And, Nash, I am not holding you responsible, I don't disagree with you entirely, and I did not answer you to attack you, specifically. I just wanted to make my position clearer.
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- Voss -
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Oh, and my wingman is Rude, and has been for "years." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As C.O. I check out every recruit. WW has a natural talent as a wingman. That is very rare in itself. If, he returns to us, he will become *very* scarey.
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- Voss -
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Just one thing to say about this:
"WELCOME TO THE MUPPETSHOW!!!!"
BORK,BORK,BORK!!!
Crabofix "yes, fishslaps hurts"
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Voss,
As far as I'm concerned the only personal attack's in this thread came from WW. I'm sorry to see anyone leave AH...even WW...and he did hit on some real issue's. But he blew them out of proportion and painted a very misleading picture...as for his ability as a wing..or any other part of a plane..only time would tell that..but he had the potential for sure.
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My first hour in the TA I see Kieren telling people, "Ask before you attack". My First HOUR! I was over A25 (I think it was) at the time which was the base I came out in. What you are all now calling the FFA base.
Ever wonder Nash, Hmble, why I asked before I attacked. This would be why.
So, how many people do that in the TA at A1?
So you see an FFA base and I'm told, "Ask before you attack".
Why do I see an ettiquette problem?
Twisting words:
In this thread, Hmble talks about getting killed alot in the AWIII Newbie arena by vets. In the other thread Hmble talks about AWIII having a training arena where there was no one to practice with and makes a reference to AWIII not having anything like the FFA here. I quote the two statements in a post and I'm twisting words.
In the beginning of this thread, Hmble doesn;t see a problem. When Weasel looses it, Hmble admits there may be a problem and suggests baring easymo. Soon as Nash starts in on me, Hmble says I'm blowing things out of proportion.
This whole thing started cause I Asked if I could attack Hmble and Av8tr shot me down. Hmble says it was a joke, fine! Wiz complains that Nash has been shooting him on the runway, "Several times" as he put it to me. When Nash starts in on me, Hmble and Av8r all join in like a team. All three see me as a whiner or trouble maker.
Only trouble I've caused so far is to raise questions people didn't want raised, point out what they themselves said and take 2 accounts away from HTC which pleased Nash, Hmble & av8tr no end.
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When I was a boy, we didn't HAVE a training arena. We had to tie ourselves to one of the vets planes and be dragged around the arena flapping our arms until we understood ACM. We didn't have auto takeoff... or P38s..., and until we understood the mystery of torque (not Torque) we took off in clockwise circles...
we ate nails and glass shards for breakfast and walked 6 miles to school uphill in snow barefoot
..and we liked it.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by LuckyDay (edited 04-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by LuckyDay (edited 04-25-2000).]
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Luckyday,
When I was a boy, we didn't HAVE a training arena. We had to tie ourselves to one of the vets planes and be dragged around the arena flapping our arms until we understood ACM. We didn't have auto takeoff... or P38s..., and until we understood the mystery of torque (not Torque) we took off in clockwise circles...
we ate nails and glass shards for breakfast and walked 6 miles to school uphill in snow barefoot
..and we liked it.
Wuss (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sharky
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PLEASE - Will you stop saying that Wiz says I killed him multiple times trying to take off? You state this like it's fact. It's just not true. Have Wiz come speak on it if he wants. I don't ever remember seeing him, and give me some some credit here - vulchin' newbies is not only lame, it's boring to the extreme. I get my kicks elswhere thanks you very much.
Now. The only reason I even got involved in this thread and 'started in on you' was because of your accusations. I'm just glad I even *found* this thread, lest be perceived as some kinda vulchin' dweeb by anyone who takes what you say at face value.
You brought this on yourself, my friend.
And seriously. Grow some skin, or something. I mean, I've been killed a number of times on the runway by rookies who honestly do not know any better. A quick "hey man - that aint cool" does the trick almost 100% of the time. Why you have turned this into some huge issue is beyond me. Like I said earlier, you really oughtta lighten up a bit.
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Ok Nash... Here I am and not because WW has asked to prove his point or defend him, and not even to accuse, blame or single you out... I'm here on my own accord to give my two cents into this discussion.
First of all, WW was only stating the facts as I have mentioned to him through my own observations in my 1 week in the "Training/FFA" arena. Yes, you have shot me down several times while I was flying around minding my own business and yes I do recall you shooting me down once either during my take-off, or just as I was clearing the run way or even when I was trying to practice landing (that was before I knew about the ".move" command). Now I'm bad with names and don't remember everyone who has shot me down on field 1, but your name was one of the easier names for me to remember since you've shot me down so many times... the reason you might not remember me is because you fly with plane-type icons...
Now that I know that field 1 is designated as an FFA, I'll try to stay clear of that field if I want to practice anything... however I do have one question for you and for the others that like the FFA. There are times that I get bored practicing by myself and would like to just take some time off to fly around the FFA and just observe the battles going on. Can anyone suggest a way for me to do that without getting shot down? If I try to request emmunity to the battles going on, will you guys honor my request so that I may be able to fly around in peace?
Again Nash, I hope that you don't think I'm singling you out or anything, and if I've offended you in anyway, please accept my sincere appologies as this was not my intention.
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Here's what I do; I take the time to climb away from the fight, get high (say 15-20K) and circle around the fight. 95% of the time no one will try to climb to me, as it would be foolish to attack a higher con (and since I am in the 202, they aren't going to outturn me when they get there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). If someone should get near, you can broadcast on country channel:
"P38 making low approach on high SpitV over A1, please, I'm observing"
You might find that will work for most. If it doesn't you have plenty of room to extend or turn and kill it. I won't guarantee this will spare you from everyone, but it will do it for most. Heck, most of the guys want to mix it as quickly as possible, so will show little interest in you at that height.
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Also, if the fight is low around the field (what I assume, I am no TA regular and when I'm there I mind my own business in another corner), you can use either external view (F3) plus pan view (F8) or pan view (F8) together with the head movement keys (cursor, pgup, pgdn, numpad numbers) to have a look around from the tower.
Az
(http://www.link-goe.de/~m.henze/images/177k.gif)
II.(K)/JG2
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No worries Wiz. That didn't offend me in the least. It's actually quite nice to finally hear from you. And I appreciate both your candor as well as the difficulty you faced at the FFA field.
As far as shooting you down on the runway, even the one time, it's not even a question of jogging my memory to come up with the name of the person I did this to. ie. "Let's see, was it Wiz I shot down on the runway?". I just have never done this... it's so not my style. But I realize that names, events can be confusing in an FFA environment when you're just getting your bearings.
Oops hang on - I just reread your post. You say you can't remember if the time I shot you was when you were taking off, just clearing the runway, or comming in for a landing. In that case - it's *possible* I might have shot ya when you were on final. Sometimes the fur moves perty close to the field, and though it is easy to tell who is rollin' down the runway taking off, it's a bit trickier when someone's already airborne and coming in for a landing.
But what you have described is far far diffirent than WW's *constant* mutterings about me shooting you down "multiple times on the runway". You paint quite a different picture, and I've come to expect this sort of distortion from him.
As far as shooting you multiple times while you were minding my own business - I'm no doubt guilty as charged. You've got to understand, Wiz, that when planes are everywhere, firing this way and that way, it becomes difficult, nay, next to *impossible* to distinguish between an 'observer' and a threat.
I really hate to be the source of trouble for anyone, especially someone new to AH or flight sims in general. Please accept my apology, and I will at least *try* to avoid you if you say you don't want to be fired at.
But that's no guarantee you will be left alone to watch the fights in peace. I guess one suggestion is for you to get a bit of altitude. The fights wind down to ground level very quickly. If you stay high and keep a bit of distance, you will probably be safe.
Also, don't be afraid to dive into the fight! It's a blast Wiz! Just jump in with both feet and start trying out different styles of fighting. Death aint a big deal like it is in the MA. Ya just up again, and the fights only 2 minutes away.
Anyways, I hope your experience in the TA wasn't bad enough to the extent that you have misgivings about returning to it (you arent one of the guys who closed their account with WW are ya?). I'd love to see ya back there, and if there's anything I or any of the trainers (or heck - *anyone* - the guys in the TA are top notch) can do to help ya, just holler.
Cheers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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My god...what a mess...
Well I want to give one or two thinks here. Why do I go to TA?...well I go for a fight. Mostly to calm down from some hard heating in MA. So I go in, I take off and I ask someone to fite.
ALWAYS...I repeat...ALWAYS ends in a all for all mess. Not because me, but for some experienced guys that come for it...AND BECAUSE MANY NEWBIES TRY TO KILL YOU EVERY TIME!...
I always try to enforce the use of the warning ("in") before attacking. The results are always sad ones, many new guys keep on attacking people regardless what you told them...and excuse me, but then I go for em and I kill em.
If the thing goes ok, then I keep on fiting people, and nearly 100% time I end fighting with some new guy that in the merge flat turns,or spilt S... so I ask him if he is new and needs help and I start to give him some advices, help, and so.
I also help people that come in asking for help from trainers, although I'm not trainer myself. I love to help people, even in MA I've helped people even from the other countries...
And yes, there is vulching in TA, there is harrasment on TA...but MUCH of it come from newbies ,not experts. Of course I've seen everything in there...but what ussualy happens is what I've explained.
I really think that many things will be ok now there is that advice when coming into TA. New people will know what is TA for, and experienced people will get the idea of what is going on in there.
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Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 04-26-2000).]
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I think it's gonna be ok now.
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WW
...Only trouble I've caused so far is to raise questions people didn't want raised, point out what they themselves said and take 2 accounts away from HTC which pleased Nash, Hmble & av8tr no end...
I answered your original post in an open and above board manner...
>>WW, it was av8r that got you way back when. he's a great guy who spends a lot of time in TA helping out/dueling/furballing. That was an inside joke and he immediately backed off.<<
>>Only issue i see is clarification of firing rules. To me plenty of room for everyone..i I do think bomber practice should be away from main flight area but there was no real damage that I saw.<<
>>The vulching was very limited and everyone backed off when "warned". Only possible problem i'd agree with was Ace02..but that more of a rudeness issue<<
Later in response to a second post...
>>I don't think WW's post is/was "wrong" with regard to details however I do disagree with the perspective entirely. To me these were relatively isolated events, not a pattern of activity.<< ...also...>>Personally I'm thrilled that some of the best sticks in the game can be found in the TA from time to time. Since they will almost universally crtique/comment on action this is a boon to any newbie. This is an combat sim, without someone to fight you cant learn. I'd hate to see the day when you had no one to practice against who would offer constructive advice.
<<< ...followed by...>>Now, on the other hand harassment DOES happen and it does need to be delt with. Someone vulching (really vulching) or repeatedly stalking an unwilling foe can't be tolerated. I think I've seen two real incidents and intervened in both.<<<
From my view, I didn't "gang-bang" you at all, or run from any of the point's that you raised. In fact I went out of my way to praise the positive aspects of your involvement. I simply questioned some of the statements you made that differed from my first hand knowledge of a specific event. I didn't challenge anything I wasn't there to personally witness.
As for being "pleased" you bailed...no not really..but you can't please everyone. I have 2 small kids (1 with a developmental disability)..a 60 hr+ gig that puts a gun to my head every day and this is a source of enjoyment for me in an often troubled world.
Out of the blue..you jump down MY throat..for things I have a limited ability to control..and start an series of what I do consider personal attacks...so pardon me if I get pissed.
The bottom line is i'm in the TA every week trying to make a positive contribution to this community.
And truthfully, more and more I'm the one wondering if I'm wasting MY time, it's sure not worth being dragged thru the mud over it.
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Humble,
I'm bummed out after reading your last post. You seem really upset over this.
I just want to say that in my opinion, after spending many hours with you online, I know that you are one helluva GREAT TEACHER, a really fun guy to fly with, and against, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
and a real asset to the AH community.
You shouldn't let the above roadkill get to you. Some BASTARDS have nothing better to do so they create "issues" to debate on this board and eagerly watch the thread count rise ("ooooooooooh look its over 70 now") as they continue to reply to well intentioned and honest posts, with personal attacks designed to ellicit more responses, ONLY TO SATISFY THEIR SICK NEED GET "ATTENTION".
It don't mean nuthin bro, let it go.
As I stated before, "Real Life" (RL) has more than enough stress, we don't need more of it generated here.
Most of us are here to RELEIVE stress and blow off steam built up during a tough day in RL.
A very wise and talented man once sang:
"Won't let the bastards grind me down"
(Van Morrison, "Days Like This" album, song, "Raincheck")
Words to live by, IMHO
Hang in there bud,
Av8r
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What av8r said, exactly. Yer presence in the TA is fantastic humble! *One* guy has a different opinion. *One guy*. Fahgeddaboudit.
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Quotes from Humble:
You are only interested in spreading falsehoods and creating problems...what a sad life you must lead.
As for being "pleased" you bailed...no not really..but you can't please everyone.
If i was being polite I'd say I'm sorry to see you leave...however I feel like answering this one personally. Don't let the door hit you in the Ass.
Quotes from Nash:
As a matter of fact I do. I *enjoy* my time in the TA. I want to *continue* to enjoy my
time in the TA. It's a great atmosphere. Why do ya feel the need to stink it up so bad?
"As for Icons, I had no idea one could switch it to a plane type. I'm a Newbie moron!"
Er... that was *supposed* to be funny right? Actually, yes - alt-I toggles 'tween names/plane type/off. I'm a moron for not knowing that you didn't read the readily available and extensive help files included with this sim? So I'm supposed to be flying around trying to read yer mind, lookin' for gaping holes in yer knowledge on accounta the fact that you were too lazy to help yourself.
Quotes from Av8r:
(Heaven forbid!)...
partaking in a FreeForAll at F1, I'll be having a good time and releiving some of my REAL
LIFE STRESS.
Quote Me:
Personally, I haven't spent more than 2 hours in the training arena. I cant understand why anyone beyond newbie status or those genuinely interested in helping people would spend more than a few hours in the TA.
To Nash: guess what I heard the other day...Quake 3 Arena is out!!! Give it a shot, sounds like your style.
To Humble: Guess what, I hear Unreal Tourney is looking for a few good trainers. The old ones quit because they could type fast enough to get anything across before being killed.
To Av8r: I suggest a playboy, a tube of KY, and a blow up doll for all that stress. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Really guys, this is rather pointless. Their is a training arena and a main arena. One is for newbies and the other one is....really....a Free For All. Really. Try it some time..... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Robert E Leezard
[This message has been edited by Lizard3 (edited 04-27-2000).]
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's about all I can say after reading this whole thread for the first time tonight. Somehow the fact that a thread that started off with good intentions and then managed to degenerate to this point worries me... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I'm not going to try to post anything more than that, and frankly, this thread should be closed. I've flown with (and against) many of you since beta and since I've been here only one other thread that I can think of that degenerated to this point. It too started out with good intentions. In the end I think we learned something from that thread, I hope the same will eventually be said about this thread. (FYI: That thread was called "B-17 Flight Model" under the general discussion forum.)
Unfortunately HTC has lost 2 paying customers as the end result of this thread, and all I can say is why? Maybe some good can come of this ... I sure hope so.
------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 04-26-2000).]
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All in all, Lizard, this was the most stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc post I've ever seen or readed in my life.
If you want to listen a tip, follow this one: Know people before talking about them. Judging people for one experience or post, or whatever, is of 1 year old childs.
Thats why I say that the stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc is the post ,not you...unless you keep that stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc line.
Hope you get it. Respect people and the people will respect you.
I sincerely expect an apology about your post to those guys you insulted in that way. If you dont...well then you'll fall into the same level of your words (you already know:stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc )
------------------
Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 04-26-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
All in all, Lizard, this was the most stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc post I've ever seen or readed in my life.
Response: I feel that my post wasn't <very> offensive nor stupid. I was basing my post on the quotes I listed at the top. The one part that was truly offensive, was truly said in jest. Hence the " (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)". I would never suggest a blow up doll as something to take your stress out on when there are so many other avenues for relief of this type. REAL women. Gun ownership. Prozac.
I've read worse, stupider, and more offensive posts here in this forum and to be exact, in this thread.
If you want to listen a tip, follow this one: Know people before talking about them. Judging people for one experience or post, or whatever, is of 1 year old childs.
Response: I did, I saw 3 or 4 posts of thiers. Question: Isn't calling me a 1 year old child offensive? Should I be offended?
Thats why I say that the stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc is the post ,not you...unless you keep that stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc line.
Response: Thats a cop out. Calling my post stupid, etc etc is calling me stupid etc etc as the one is the product of the other.
Hope you get it. Respect people and the people will respect you.
Responce: I get it, I got it. I generally dont shoot my mouth off about stuff like this, but I get a bit riled when people start picking on other people just for stating their opinion. THATS childish. When people use derogitory language and try to box up people with real concerns I HAVE to put my 2 cents in. If people state out in the open that they like FFA's in the TRAINING areana alarm bells immediately go off. Me, I love a good furball. In the Training arena? Get real?
I sincerely expect an apology about your post to those guys you insulted in that way. If you dont...well then you'll fall into the same level of your words (you already know:stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc )
Response: If I have "greatly" offended anyone, please forgive me. Let me know who you are and I'll shoot off a personal appology forwtith. If I've mildly offended many, shocked a few into realizing their rudeness, their haughty attitude, or even made someone chuckle a little, GOOD! Mission accomplished!!!
Lizardicus
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Liz
"Their are only two types of aircraft-fighters and targets"
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Hmble,
Obviously, you've had time to cool off as have I.
I'm not gonna go into who said what, because when it comes right down to it, I said things that pissed you off and you returned the favor, (or visa versa, I don't know which)
For my part, I precieved some attacks on the verasity of my concerns and responded in kind (not the best plan I guess) and again, I'm not gonna list any here or get into a competition over weather or not that preception was well founded. That's how they where precieved.
When Nash came into the picture, I precieved all hell breaking loose. Since that time have been thanked for leaving by just about everyone but my squaddies.
It comes down to this. I NEVER had a personal problem with you or your training. or any of the trainers. My problem was with Newbies as fishbait. I was told, "Ask before your shoot" and was getting shot down all the time without being asked. The first thing I wanted to know was why a trainer let me get shot down by a third party when I asked to attack him. You answered that VERY MUCH to anyone satisfaction. The rest was supposed to be about helping the Fresh newbies who may have the same lack of understanding as I was recieving here.
That was my objective. Completely, Totally. I am not a complainer. I've been with AW for 1.5 years and never had anything like this. I just felt Newbies needed help.
The only reason I provided names, was because I don't know anyone from anyone else. Who the sticks are who the newbies are?!?!?! You we'rent seeing any of it and seemed to need something to help you see what I saw.
I never had a problem with you or the other trainers as people or as trainers.
It started out as a question, moved onto a debate of the issues and an effort on my part to bring you information that you could evalute. Then the s**t storm hit and it's been flying ever since. It's about the only thing flying that hasn't been shot down in here.
I said 2 things in this thread somewhere of far greater importance.
1. I never use discussions cause they rarely go well. But I was unable to email my concerns to HTC.
2. Something to the effect of some people speak up and some just quit.
I shoulda stuck to what I knew.
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-26-2000).]
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First...av8r&NASH,RAM...thank you for the kind word's. Each of you has spent considerable time in the TA and your opinion (good or bad) counts because of it.
Lizard3, your post(s) are childish and you have no standing with me...your not on may "radar" as a member of this or any other flight sim community.
Now,bloom25,Voss,Rude,ghosth...I've probably missed a few...you all have my respect...and truthfully I'm upset that your opinion of me has been impacted by this chain of events. The issue of the role if any of a FFA component in the TA is an issue for the community...not a few individuals. I signed up as a trainer, and I was/am perfectly willing to be judged by all on that basis.
The fact that some of you feel the biggest issue here is the loss of a "customer" is somewhat disturbing.
One thing missing in this last go around...I spent a good 45 min or so training wiz right before this last blowup...at WW's request.
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Like I said Hmble, I never had any problem with You. AT ALL, in my mind we we're having a debate. Thats part why I called on you, but also to try to say, "I don't mind asking you for help, I'm not angry"
I spent 3 hours that night giving Wiz the Basic ACM he needed to make use of the training you had given him. The need could not have been detected had I not been an observer in the cockpit with him that whole time you where trying to help him. (I'm not questioning your Training!!!!!!)
Later that same evening was when I had my encounter with Nash. I STILL didn't feel badly towards you.
The rest is history
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-26-2000).]
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WW,
I just read your post, and I appreciate it.
I've tried to take the high road and hope that for the most part I have. I do understand your frustration with certain aspects of the TA, I do hope that my posts on these threads reflect that to some degree.
I do (and did) agree that some changes were/are required. I was and do feel removing the FFA component is/was a mistake.
My anger/concern was the effect of your thread on how I'm perceived by members of our community that haven't even been in the TA. Over the last week i've learned alot about how the peacekeepers in Serbia must feel (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
The bottom line is is really simple, I've done everything I can to conduct myself in a professional manner. I didn't orchestrate any attempt to create problems for you (To the contrary I mentioned you in the TA forum as someone to consider in the future if you volunteered).
I flew AW in AOL since it started there. You can check me out with YES (think he's a trainer there) among others in AW.
I just as soon bury this thread on an amicable last note. Nothing you've done/said is truely offensive to me on a factual basis. I do feel you've placed an intent on certain actions thats not fair to those involved. I'll stand by those I know..just like your squadies stand by you...I sincerely believe that there's a place...and a need...for all of us to make this community grow. On that basis I do hope you'll reconsider your decision to leave.
PS...send wiz back, he does need some more work (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by humble (edited 04-26-2000).]
[This message has been edited by humble (edited 04-26-2000).]
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WW,
As a last comment, you did the right thing with your 1st post...If you read the 1st few posts they started an important dialog that is changing the TA...hopefully for the better.
As for the rest, I guess that's why even baseball has brawls...I'm appreciative of those who've stood by me...and seen your squadie's concern over your loss.
I guess Rodney King said it all...
" why can't we all learn to live togeather"
Think I'll end my comments on that note.
-
I just wanted to say a thing or two if I may....
The loss of WW may mean very little to others but he was a new squadmate in the 13th TAS. Whatever happened in the training arena prolly shouldn't have but it did.
My one experience flying there was unpleasant and not encouraging in any way...I was verbally told to take a hike by a vet that if he knew who I was in WB's, I know he would not have addressed me the way he did.
He was using the so called training arena for his own enjoyment instead of promoting it to new users as a help and a teaching aid.
I know most of the trainers and fly with and against them often....they were not involved. I just think that it is unfortunate to have lost a good pilot who was excited about leaving AW3 and joining our community.
Strafing folks on the runway is in no way going to benefit anyone in the MA enviroment. It teaches no skills whatsoever, and it seems to have chased a few promising prospects away from our community.
I would hope that someone can do something to improve things there....I for one have personally trained new squadmates myself in the MA rather than to send them to the TA where a potential problem could arise.
Thats All
Rude Out!
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Hmble,
Wwe keep hitting this forum at the exact same time of day, It's hillarious.
Like I said, I was having a debate and trying to get you information to evaluate. I wasn't trying to trash you. (I think we came to agreement somewhere in here.) But I can see what you mean about being trashed.
My rep (not that there was much of one anyway) has been completely f**ked up in this. Like I said, I've never recieved so many thank you's from so many that I don't know.
I introduced Wiz to AW about 3 weeks ago (his first flight game) and AH about 2 weeks ago. I wouldn't be surprised if he subscibed anyway dispite all this. We both like the game.
But I get the feeling that anyone carrying the name WW in AH will be in for quite a lot of trouble from here on.
Not that you did anything directly to cause it. Thats just the way it went.
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Originally posted by humble:
Lizard3, your post(s) are childish and you have no standing with me...your not on may "radar" as a member of this or any other flight sim community.
WOW! Another one calls me childish. Funny, I thought the "hit you in the bellybutton on the way out" quote was far and beyond childish. Infantile comes to mind.
Likewise, you have no standing with me.
You shoot your mouth off at people who disagree with you. Call me a mirror of your reflection. Sir, I will not suck up in the hopes that I shall find myself on your "Radar". You and your Radar can take a hike. Flight sims(online) 6 1/2 years.
My experience with trainers is limited. I tend to learn on the fly so to speak. I have had a few fun flights with Joker of the old old old "Green Hearts". I do not know how you do as a trainer. I do know you are not a people person. Your insecure, you can't handle critisism.
I've been a member of this community for over 3 months. I Love it! I also left that piece of hacked trash AW3. As you can see, I dont post much. I tend to keep my mouth shut and try to learn what I can. The fact that I actually did post in this thread may hopefully show you the degree to which what you and others have said here has affected me.
RAM, I believe you misread what I was saying in my original post. The first half was quotations from others. I have gone back and edited it to help clarify what it was I was trying to get at.
<BAH!>
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I am very glad to see that a measure of reason has returned to this discussion.
I am also very glad to read that the biggest source of the problem is being dealt with.
To me that was the FFA at F1.
Nuff said on that score.
Nash, In no way did I mean to attack you. I did however in my mind raise a valid question. If you mistook my intention then I apoligise. By the same token I feel I am owed one by you.
Humble, keep up the good work. Customer's are important, each & every one of them. When I read or get the impression that the weak are getting shoved around by the strong you'll find me voiceing my opinion EVERY time!
If anything that I posted at any time to you upset you, or was anything but the truth then I apoligise. I have nothing but respect for the job you trainers are doing with the very limited resources you have.
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Quote:
"Strafing folks on the runway is in no way going to benefit anyone in the MA enviroment.
It teaches no skills whatsoever, and it seems to have chased a few promising prospects away from our community."
-Rude
Unquote
See.
This is why I got involved WW.
I'm gonna speak on my take of events.
In yer absolute zeal for Nailing Them Damned Bastages To The Wall fer the horrible INJUSTICE, the TYRANNY and the complete HAVOC that rears its ugly head in the TA...
...you accused me of doing this.
Repeatedly.
It proved to be completely, absolutely, baseless. I took issue (rightly) and that's when you claim this whole thing turned into a *real* mess. Gawdamned right it did. Obviously it struck a chord with someone (Rude is still bringing this up), and my name's attached. Unfair - and I took ya to task (rightly).
This was long after ya berated the Trainers (yes, that's right, those people who give freely, *voluntarily* of their time to HELP, fer chrissakes).
I have no issue with you *personally*. Hell, I don't even *know* you. You calling me a moron *repeatedly* rolls right off my back. But if you feel the need to back up yer claims of anarchy in the TA by dumping on the trainers, you've made a huge mistake. If you need to back up yer claims by focusing on me, then ya made another mistake. I could cull yer posts right now for so much garbage and unsubstantiated vitriol that... but I won't.
Now I'm gonna speak to you.
Somewhere in yer head you need to dig deep and find that area where common sense, tact, diplomacy, and just gawdamned human courtesy.... reside.
You will change *nothing* by flying around, building a film vault of so-called infractions. You should have understood from the get-go that things are a little undefined here. I've met about a dozen people who've been here a shorter period than you who have a much firmer grasp on things. It's what we make of it. Even the trainers are just now getting their legs, as it's a new and difficult spot for them. Why, in the ONE week of your AH experience, you chose to immediately dump on everyone, is baffling.
I aint *gonna* let ya off the hook - because there's a lesson here. When it comes to flight sims, and the whole flight sim community, respect is *earned*. Don't matter if yer the oldest of masters, or the youngest of baby seals. That's perhaps more important than anything you could learn in the TA, in which case I hope you've found this whole charade enlightening.
From my perspective, disappointing is the more aproritate word.
One more thing - as a community, our memories are notoriously short. Suck it up, focus on the positives, tackle the negatives *constuctively*, and innabout 2 weeks we'll all be talking about how great a guy you are. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yes Ghosth, I do indeed apologize. The TA I care very much about was being attacked, and I no doubt countered that by being overly defensive... to you. Again, the sincerest of apologies. It was never about you, really, it was the state of things, and you wandered into the crossfire (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I hope everything's cool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Fine here Nash, I think part of our problem is that we both can be very passionate about AH. Nothing wrong with that in my book.
As to WW, I think he's had a chance to cool down & take a 2nd look. Back off & give him a second chance. There has been enough of hot words for any week.
Let it die & see what happens.
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hehe...the thread that won't die (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rude,ghosth...impression is everything it seems...the FFA was never 1/10 the problem you guys percieve it to have been (IMO). I'm certainly sorry your 1 experience there was a bad one Rude.
WW, my whole initial point of "anger" was the impact on av8r...and probably myself as well...I've spent many hours in the TA and know what a positive presence he is.
Strangely, I do realize that your intensions are/were good, and the thought you feel you've been "trashed" as well saddens me.
Nash didn't show up in any way till way down the thread...again...a great guy & very positive TA contrbuter...sucked in and trashed over an isolated incident.
My hope is that we all move on in a positive way. As I stated earlier I took your 1st post as a very sincere critique...misguided (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...but sincere. I don't think anyone involved will hold a grudge for long.
Av8r, NASH you guys are in the dictionary under "foxhole buddies"
WW I hope we run into each other again...in AH.
Oh, lizard...nevermind
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Quote
"I don't think anyone involved will hold a grudge for long."
Unquote.
- Humble
So completely true. No matter how things blow up on these BBS's, it never really *sticks*.
One of my best buddies and I became friends only after we got into a fight. The principle (or is it principal?) locked us up together for the entire day in the janitor's room cuz our moms worked, and couldn't pick us up. Spent the whole day finally getting to know him.
He was *wrong*. Despite 4th and 8, we had *clearly* gotten a 1st down on that play. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But in a broader sense, we both cared so much about taking our teams to victory, that... well... anyways... it's a pretty good indication that we fought because we wanted the same thing. When all was said and done, it didn't matter that we battled over a few inches. His character in sticking up for his team said so much more.
And... if ya remove alla the crap... that's kinda what's going on here.
I hate the fact that alla this confusion is happening. It *saddens* me when something as cool as a flight sim so incredible as Aces High can be the basis over which we fight.
We *do* want the same thing, WW, I reckon.
Hopefully, with clearer guidelines (a step HTC just recently undertook - but didn't go far enough imho) we can bring an end to this kind of misunderstanding.
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 04-27-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 04-27-2000).]
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Lizard, the post is clearer now...but I readed it the way it was. Excuse me but I still think that you were greatly offensive there to some people. Even making some jokes (the one about Av8r ,IE) may be offensive and If I was him I'd be really offended and upset for such thing.
Look, people. We are attacking each other and saying BIG and OFFENSIVE things about each other...and, you know what?...its useless, because in the matter that really matters we agree all. The matter is that newbie harassment on TA is a fact, wanted or not, approved or not.
Said that I want to make clear that ,IMHO,a FFA is NOT acceptable in TA. Combat is accpetable, but not undeclared attacks. I am sick and tired of flying H2Hs with anyone to be shooted by someone that didnt say a word about it. if a FFA is happening, people that wants to be apart from it are to be harrassed. My suggestion is that if people wants a FFA, declare it and MOVE TO OTHER FIELD AND COUNTRY. Remember that TA is TRAINING arena, so the training people have more rights, and A1 is the best field to start a training, cuz its hi altitude.
I also find unacceptable the bombing of runways on A1. People are taking off from there, damnit. NEWBIES that dont know EVEN TO TAKE OFF from a ok field!!!!!!...give em 2 big holes in the runway and they wont take off in their life!!!!!
and no, dont tell me that training people can move to other fields. As I said before, training arena is to TRAIN before to fighting or bombing,so the moving guy MUST BE the bomber, not the newbie training.If you want to fight a H2H, warn the guy. If you want a FFA, move to other field. If you want to bomb a field, MOVE TO OTHER FIELD!
Ettiquete of Training arena? easy...I propose to add these 6 points to the message when you come in the TA:
1)Dont attack without warning
2)Dont harass people that dont want to fight.
3)Dont bomb the field from wich people are taking off
4)If you want a Free For All, declare it and the field that will be the scenario of it...ALWAYS far from the one used for training.
5) NEVER,unless in a FFA agreed to allow it, VULCH PEOPLE, nor FIRE PEOPLE ON THE RUNWAY
6)And over all, remember that Training people and Trainers have ALL THE RIGHTS that FFA-ing people hasn't. You are to follow and respect Trainer's orders. You are to respect other people's desires of fighting or not, and training or not.
Every one that doesn't follow these easy 6 norms, are to be filmed, or their acts saved in screenshots that will be promptly sended to HTC.
I think these points make clear what will the TA can be and what CANT be. If we all agree I think this can be mailed to HTC for them to put it on TA message.
Any thoughts?
------------------
Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 04-27-2000).]
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Nash,
I am trying desperitly to let this thing die.
Some of your points I can agree with. Some are dead wrong.
Listing the quotes that illustrate this would do nothing but get things going again.
Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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Ram,
See the thread in this forum called "The message window is a great idea".
Some of your points aren't bad, but I think we've already come pretty close to a fix here, and I don't wanna move backwards.
Nash
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In my earlier post, I never really addressed the issue of "proper etiquette" in the TA so here is MY two cents worth on this topic...
As many of you have already stated, this discussion has degenerated from being what I, and many of you probably think is an important topic that my friend WW has took to the floor… His intentions were innocent enough. He was simply inquiring about proper TA etiquette after a certain incident left a bad taste in his mouth… Further down the discussion, it went from being a question of what was the proper TA etiquette, to what the TA was really being used for, and a lot of name calling progressed. Suggestions were made as to what fields should and shouldn’t be made an FFA, which fields newbie’s (like me) could go to do some actual training by ourselves or with others, and which fields to stay clear of if we didn’t want to be engaged by anyone. All these suggestions are great but they are still unwritten “rules”. Since WW first posted this discussion, HTC seems to be getting the idea, and are trying to make the proper changes to clarify what the TA is for. I think they did a great job in trying to implement some changes as soon as they did, but as both Nash and RAM have pointed out, work still needs to be done with the wording… but it’s a step in the right direction I think… We can squeak, complain, and call people names, till hell freezes over, but to me that is all pointless. To me, our suggestions and feedback should be directed at HTC, and from the looks of it, they are listening (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
The words that I try to live by is this “Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.”… for this scenario, unless otherwise stated, ask before you shoot out of politness… please… I hate flying around minding my own business only to have to try and evade someone when I don’t feel like fighting. Yes I acknowledge that the FFA does exist and will move to a different field if I want to practice with a trainer or just by myself, or try to fly up to 10-15K to watch and observe the action. But by the same token, I’d expect for others to leave me alone if I request it (for those times that I would like to observe at a closer range). That is all that I ask…
Yes Nash, you and WW, AND all of us as well, do want the same thing… a place to go to have fun, and learn. So everyone, please bury the hatchet, Humble and WW seem to have, it doesn’t look good to newbie’s to read stuff like this, because it leaves a bad impression of what flight combat sims are all about…
Oh and Humble, I do plan on being back, but I’m away on holiday’s for two weeks… yes I do know that I need A LOT more help (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and you did a great job the first time… thanks again!!!
RAM, I think all your points would really help in de-mystifying the rules of the TA are great! I hope that HTC puts all those points in their intro message…
Wow… didn’t realize how long this was… and for those that got this far… thanks for reading it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Momma said,if ya hafta say something meen, always say something nice. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nash, The city of Vancouver was/is the nicest city I have ever visited in my life. The cleanest, freindliest by far. The worlds fair was great also. You should be proud.
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Liz
"Their are only two types of aircraft-fighters and targets"
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Yeah, it's a great city. I moved here from NYC a couple years ago, and there's a huge difference (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I notice that WW is from Toronto. Which leaves me to conclude; do not blame the confusion, misunderstandings, and raw emotions that lead to this thread. Blame Canada (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Actually Nash, I should clear something up.
When I last posted, I was focusing more on your post 4-27-2:15 AM.
I neglected to recognize your second post of the same day 4-27-4:17 AM.
My sincerest appologies for not mentioning it at the time. My attention was focused on the earlier post.
Your post of 4-27-4:17 AM was very well recieved. Thank you. and again, sorry for having been blinded earlier by the first one.
The first nice post you had with my name in it and I go a miss it..DOH!
[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-27-2000).]
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All past things are forgotten (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
WW....get your can back to the 13th, an I'll promise to teach you how to kill all of these guys (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cyas Up!
Rude Out
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This whole thread just goes to show how a BB is about the worst way to have a civilized discussion. I've learned in the time that I've been here not to jump to conclusions about an individual's personality based on what I read here. So often the conotation of a post to one person is completely different to another. This is especially true in the case of the diverse community of AH.
Humble, don't think for one second that I have lost any respect for you. On the contrary, your selection as a trainer is proof that you are well respected in the AH community. For the same reasons as above I try very hard not to judge a person's character by what they type. The truth is all of us would probably get along very well if we were ever to meet face to face. After all, we all share a common interest in aviation and WWII. Many of us also work in the same fields.
WW, if I was in your position, I feel that I too may have felt the same way you did. Due to the fact that I have been around since almost the beginning of beta I would have realized that humble's remark was just a joke. I probably would have responded with "LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) " or something like that. On the other hand, if I were new here I'm sure that I would be confused to say the least. The same reasons that change the conotation of a BB post would also apply to what I read in the text buffer. "I pay him to keep my 6 clear" to me NOW would be extremely funny. If I heard this back when I started flying AH, I may have logged right there confused and a little angry. Chances are I may have posted here in much the same way that you did. In some ways the post about people whining have been almost a running joke in here as well. As with Humble's joke some of the above posts can be taken several ways. On the other hand, some of the above posts were personal attacks that have no place in a community based game such as this one. I hope that in the end we can learn something from this. We all need to remember that those new to the game do not know the "unwritten rules" so to speak. We also can't expect what we say in the training arena to be taken in the context that we intended.
Fortunately it seems that some good has come out of this. I see from another post that a startup message has been added to the training arena as a direct result of this.
I hope to see you sometime in the skies of AH WW. Please don't let a few bad experiences soil your impression of this game.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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(Just what this thread needs, another post. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
I thought I might add that I too volunteer 8 hours of my time every week for something that I enjoy doing. As a result I have nothing but the utmost respect for all of the AH trainers. I've flown wing (and against (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) many of you and I've never felt for one second anything but respect, not only your prowess in this game, but also in your willingness to help others.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Nice to see this wrap up on a positive note.
Wiz it was great to see you in the TA...I hope both you and WW do decide to stay with AH...Hopefully the TA will evolve into a part of AH we'll all be happy to call home.
[This message has been edited by humble (edited 04-27-2000).]
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Yeah, and I think this is a good argument for *not* locking threads. Looks like this thing is wrapped up, amiccably, and my hatchet is officially burried.
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I agree 100% NASH, I'm glad we all ended it on our own. I hope we don't have another one like this anytime soon, but thanx for letting us all duke it out Pyro. Better to truely end it right than let it fester.
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Yeah,
All's well that ends well, glad everything is PATCHED UP.
" I got the KY, the rubber cement and a tire patch, gonna party tonight! " (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Av8r
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Actually I am a little disapointed that all of you kissed and made up. I wanted a thread of unheralded length that this BBS has never seen nor will ever see again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Still 925 to go... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
This topic is like a old caterpillar without tracks... It has done its work but now it's just a pain in the "backyard"...
Peace and happiness for everybody ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 04-28-2000).]
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AV8R....I busted a git on that one.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hmble,
Actually I reupped 2 days ago under an assumed ID. You and Rwy where dukin it out. Got into like 5 fights over A1 after I was initially shot down on a landing approach. But now that I know the "unwritten rule", I just reupped and killed em. They never asked, so neither did I.
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Psst, guys, lets post some more and go for the record length thread. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Since this dead horse has been beaten, burried, exhumed, beaten again, and reburried; I propose we switch to something like dining table etiquette. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I don't know about the rest of you, but I LOVE to put my elbows on the table........
Hehe, maybe not.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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WW,
Nice to see your still around...I have an odd habit of holding my drink in one hand while it's on the table...my wife's always busting me on asking "who's going to steal your drink" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...go thread go
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Dating ettique..
Important questions like, do you kiss on the first date, perhaps french? Is there a depth restriction or does one simply feel around to get a sense of general plaque build up above the gumline.
At what point does one check for breat implants?
Does one have sex on the first date, and if so, condom selection becomes an issue of paramount importance. Ribbed, lubricated or florecent?
How many sexual inderludes must pass before you can reach for the remote directly after.
How long can things safely go on before it's considered a "Relationship".
All very important questions I think.
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I simply have to have the table in a dining room with a clear line of sight to the TV. And the remote at my side.
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Glad you re-upped WW. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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P.S. The remote is not an issue if you do it "comme les chiens" and the TV is oriented properly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Glad you re-upped too WW.
"comme les chiens"
I had to take a few years of basic french, and the most I can make of this is:
"what the dogs" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Slept thru all of it, as you can tell.
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I paid Huge CASH for french lessons and didn't get any of that one.
Thanks guys.. I might just change my handle back
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Heh WW, a couple of Canadians gettin' out-frenched by a hoosier (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Oops, nevermind. Upon a closer look, Funked is from Illinois, not Indiana.
Slept through reading comprehension too.
Go THREAD Go!
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"comme les chiens" = DOGGIE STYLE
hehe, my favorite position with my blow-up sheep. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
av8r
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OK so Nash almost had it.
"What the dogs"....DO
For got the word DO.
This thread is getting SOOO big, it takes forever to load.
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My ... modem ... is ... so ... slow ... I ... almost ... can't ... stand ... to ... wait ... for ... the ... next.... Ah nevermind! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I know that I for one had a blast flying with someone in the MA last night. It was his very first night in there, and he did very well. I attribute that to the skills of our trainers.
126 and counting. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Well, not to take anything away from the trainers, but lets face it, MA can be much easier then the TA at times. The enemy is never your colour. You always know who's attacking and whose not. AND, youre generally not flying alone.
I've only been in there about 3 or 4 times and have gotten about 6 or 7 kills so far.
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rgr that WW.
The TA is a good place to learn, practise, and have fun. The whole point of it though is about bringing that knowledge to the MA, where, unless we get an HA, the *real* battles are fought.
This comment brought to you by Energizer. It keeps going... and going... and going...
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hehe, this takes longer...and longer...and longer to load up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...go thread go
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Hmm...
Would it be cruel to post something for no other reason than to have someone load this huge thread up, only to find out that there wasn't really anything important added?
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Holy crap... go out of town training for a week and KERBLAM!
Nice to see this thread seems to have calmed down near the end...
I couldn't read this entire WALL O TEXT, but I skimmed most of it. As lead trainer, I will say this:
1. In the future the training staff will have the power to control the TA to a greater degree, including things like killshooter and ejecting folks.
2. The map editor that will be released will give us the opportunity to make a specialized training arena more suited to our needs.
3. Although H2H can be used for 1v1 training, we trainers like to keep one or two of us in the arena, so leaving for a H2H session isn't the best option for us.
The trainers are a great crew, and we all mean well. There will be mis-understandings, but I ask that everybody try to be patient and be tolerant of others. We trainers are doing our best with the tools we have to work with. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) More tools are on the way that will help us make the training arena an even better place to learn.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 04-30-2000).]
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Hey Lep,
Every year I pass by your neck of the wood on my way to visit my Wife's family on the Rock!!
Best stretch of highway in all eastern Canada!
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Whew - thanks WW! Way to bring this thread back off topic where it belongs. Lephturn had me worried there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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This is the Go to jail box.
Go to jail, Go directly to Jail. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.00.
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LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I am a team player, magic 135!
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Guys,
we glossed over a critical area here...why the #$@% is it "french" kissing. I can't believe that the greeks,romans,chinese and so on all missed this one...the eskimo's I understand of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...
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Well, I don't know about the name of it, but I never did get an answer as to a depth restriction on the first date (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)