Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dowding on November 04, 2004, 12:26:22 PM
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... to get Blair and Labour out.
Although the rotational motion of my grandfather six feet under makes me feel uneasy.
Any other Brits feeling the need to give Blair a kicking in the polls?
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Dowding, does this mean we Americans can be obnoxious tulips and voice obnoxious opinions about who you people choose for your PM, or should we just sit quietly and let you choose, since, after all, it is up to you.
:D
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Fire away, they are almost as bad as Bush and Kerry! ;)
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Originally posted by Dowding
Fire away, they are almost as bad as Bush and Kerry! ;)
Akwulfe-fence-sitter-syndrome. You're never wrong when you can point fingers at everyone!
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Wow, are you stealing my soap at night?
-SW
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No, but he is taking pictures of you in the shower.
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Can I download those pictures?
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Can Maggie run again?
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Im confident Blair will remain the favorite unless the Brits are so far gone that they dont see the necessity for him.
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Hamilton, Aitken, Archer. Dont do it. Remember what Aitken said?
If it falls to me to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play, so be it. I am ready for the fight. The fight against falsehood and those who peddle it.
right before he was nicked and sent down for perjury.
The right honourable member for Texas north might be iffy but he's not that bad.
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I know this has been discussed before but could you define the political parties in England,
Thanks
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I have a question about the British system...
If the Conservatives win the election today, do you already know who they will put forward as the P.M.?
I mean, is it pretty much automatically Michael Howard? Or do they ever switch up the leadership once they gain a majority?
-Sik
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Information courtesy of The British Information Services
The political party system is an essential element in the working of the British constitution. The present system depends upon the existence of organized political parties, each of which presents its policies to the electorate for approval. The parties are not registered or formally recognized in law, but in practice most candidates in elections, and almost all winning candidates, belong to one of the main parties.
Since 1945, either the Conservative Party, whose origins go back to the eighteenth century, or the Labour Party, which emerged in the last decade of the nineteenth century, has held power. A new party - the Liberal Democrats - was formed in 1988 when the Liberal Party, which traced its origins to the eighteenth century, merged with the Social Democratic Party (formed in 1981). These three parties accounted for over 90% of the winning candidates in general elections held in 1992.
Other parties include two nationalist parties, Plaid Cymru (founded in Wales in 1925) and the Scottish National Party (founded in 1934). In Northern Ireland there are a number of parties. They include the Ulster Unionist Party, formed in the early part of this century; the Democratic Unionist Party, founded in 1971 by a group which broke away from the Ulster Unionists; and the Social Democratic and Labour Party, founded in 1970.
Since 1945 eight general elections have been won by the Conservative Party and six by the Labout Party; the great majority of members of the House of Commons have belonged to one of these two parties.
The party which wins most seats, although not necessarily the most votes, at a general election, or which has the support of a majority of members in the House of Commons, usually forms the Government. By tradition, the leader of the majority party is asked by the Sovereign to form a government. About 100 of its members in the House of Commons and the House of Lords receive ministerial appointments, including appointment to the Cabinet on the advice of the Prime Minister. The largest minority party becomes the official Opposition, with its own leader and 'shadow cabinet'.
Wow! You can vote for the Bish, Rooks or Knights! Are you sure HTC isn't behind your party system?
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Well, currently you have three main political parties.
Labour, lead by Tony Blair, used to be left wing. Currently doesn't really know where it is, unless there's a nearby bandwagon to jumped on which has a popular movement behind it (gun control, fox hunting etc).
The Conservatives (Tories), lead by Michael Howard, used to be right wing. A bit like Labour, they pander to certain elements of society and are desperate to appear warm and fluffy so they can be electable again. Margaret Thatcher was a Tory as well as satanist.
The Liberal Democrats, lead by Charles Kennedy, were often thought as a middle ground option. These days, they sound more left wing than anyone. Not much chance of being elected, but are pushing the Tories for second place in many areas.
There are lots of other parties - the UK Independance Party campaigns purely on a keep Britain out of Europe ticket. Very much on the fringe. Then you have all your independants campaigning for local issues.
As far as nominating a PM - the leader automatically assumes the position. By now, this close to election, there should be no changes. Unless Labour get a whiff of imminent defeat and swap Blair for Gordon Brown.
Saudakar - you haven't lived under Blair or seen the kind of undemocratic, unconstitutional, pointless changes he's made to legislature and parliament. The man is a control freak and nanny state advocate.
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can any of the candidates fly a jet fighter like our prez can?
lazs
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No, they employ people to do that for them.
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Yeah, aparently its too difficult to fly it alone with a silver spoon stuck up your a**! :D
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I know Charles rides a horse. what's her name again....Camilla?
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I know this has been discussed before but could you define the political parties in England,
Labour (Tony Blair's party) = left wing, tax and spend. The party is much more left wing than Blair himself.
Conservative = right wing, tax cuts, anti European Union.
Liberal = supposed to be centrist, but socialy more left wing than labour, economically more left wing than current labour government. More libertarian than conservatives or labour.
As you specified England, no need to mention the Scottish and Welsh Nationalist, (both left wing, both seek independence) or the Northern Ireland parties (right wing Ulster Unionists, left wing Democratic Unionists, left wing SDLP and Sinn Fein, political wing of IRA terrorist group)
If the Conservatives win the election today, do you already know who they will put forward as the P.M.?
I mean, is it pretty much automatically Michael Howard? Or do they ever switch up the leadership once they gain a majority?
Definately Michael Howard.
They can switch leadership, but only do so when they are in difficulties. If they win an election under a leader, there's unlikely to be a movement to unseat him.
Saudakar - you haven't lived under Blair or seen the kind of undemocratic, unconstitutional, pointless changes he's made to legislature and parliament. The man is a control freak and nanny state advocate.
Couldn't agree more. ID cards next, and from 2007 when you apply for a passport you also have to have an ID card, and go on a national "identity register". Oh, and pay £85 for the privillege.
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Dowding, or anyone, what type of ballots do you use in england?
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When is the election anyway?
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Dowding
When I read your initial post, I almost fell of my chair! :eek: But we'll be glad to have you on board. I joined the party! - £15, and I got a nice membership card.
VWE said Wow! You can vote for the Bish, Rooks or Knights! Are you sure HTC isn't behind your party system?
Yes, our voting system was designed by HTC and even has an inbuilt ENY limiting feature. :aok
Lazs said can any of the candidates fly a jet fighter like our prez can?
One former senior cabinet minister in Thatcher's day, Norman Tebbit (another of Dowding's heros - lol) was in the RAF in post war years, and flew a Gloster Meteor.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
When is the election anyway?
Nilsen - our system is (pretty much) unique, in that the PM can call the election at any time in the allotted 5 year term. Blair won in June 2001, so he could in theory keep going till June 2006. But most believe he will seek a dissolution of parliament between Feb and May of next year.
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Thanks for the replys, very informative.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Nilsen - our system is (pretty much) unique, in that the PM can call the election at any time in the allotted 5 year term. Blair won in June 2001, so he could in theory keep going till June 2006. But most believe he will seek a dissolution of parliament between Feb and May of next year.
Ok :)
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My next door neighbor recently moved from England to KC working for GM. He’s English his wife is from the states. We’ve ended up being pretty good friends and have had several opportunities to discuss politics and the world view.
The reaction that I get from him about Blair is about the same as here with Bush. Who else are you going to vote for? For lack of a better candidate Blair seems to be the only choice. Of course as stated here though it’s more voting for the party rather than the candidate with an understanding of who would take charge after the election from local areas.
The neighbors state that “Blair is the best conservative the democrats have ever had”. This statement doesn’t completely follow the party breakdown but I’m sure he was simplifying it for me.
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The British election system is special in that it virtually guarantees that the party most voters DON'T want to be in government wins every time. As a result every British government is unpopular from the moment it's elected.
One man one vote - a great system,
:lol
Dowding: I think a vote for the Tories right now would be wasted. They are simply not ready. Howard doesn't really impress and there is no obvious Tory waiting in the wings. Your only hope is that Gordon Brown replaces Blair sooner rather than later.
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Dowding take heart...
I voted Labour (and Greens in the senate), and the barstard Liberals still won...nothing like a good scare campaign, and selling out to the christian-right to help keep you in power...
Fear will keep the locals systems in line...
Tronsky
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Originally posted by john9001
Dowding, or anyone, what type of ballots do you use in england?
Paper and pen, and then counted by hand by local govt employees. They're looking at other methods to try and change the generally abysmal turn out.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Dowding: I think a vote for the Tories right now would be wasted. They are simply not ready. Howard doesn't really impress and there is no obvious Tory waiting in the wings. Your only hope is that Gordon Brown replaces Blair sooner rather than later.
...and there's a lot of voter apathy just like this. I've talked to former tory voters who have said the alternative to Labour is no better. That's certainly why I didn't vote at all in 1997 and 2001.
[PPB] (short version, not the Beetlesque version)
But there comes a time when you look at Labour's record and realise that they haven't just mucked up one particular thing; they've messed up everything they've touched, and they've lied to the electorate - on Iraq (45 minute threat/Kelly debacle), on asylum/immigration (Beverley Hughes fiasco) and on taxes (66 new ones despite a pledge for no new taxes). Still to come are next year's tax rises to pay for Gordon's 2004 spending. And there are steep council tax rises being planned - the back door tax on wealth. Remember June 10 when the UK elections showed that most of us don't want the EU constitution? And the very next week, Tony hopped on a plane to Brussels to sign up to it?
I look at this and wonder - could the tories really be worse? Hmmm... OK, Howard is no spring chicken, and would probably give way to a younger leader before his term was up.
[/PPB]
But the electorate has really got to shake off this numb feeling of apathy and wake up to what's happening around them.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Dowding, does this mean we Americans can be obnoxious tulips and voice obnoxious opinions about who you people choose for your PM, or should we just sit quietly and let you choose, since, after all, it is up to you.
:D
Like some euros opinion is going to stop us from being obnoxious bellybutton Americans.
We're unilateral man! And we don't speak feminine foriegn languages or put creamed eggs on our freedom fries!!
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Surely such a pillock doesn't realy exist?
Personaly I think The Liberal Democrats should get a go as both the other main parties have managed to balls up everything over the last 30 years or so.
Won't happen though. Sadly.
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What's the difference between the House of Commons and the House of Lords?
I was once dragged to a chick flick that said a position in the House of Lords is a hereditary title. For some odd reason, despite being American, I feel a bit uncomfortable going about my day believing that based on the testimony of hollywood.
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dowding... shouldn't you just do a poll to see how the rest of the world wants yu to vote.... I mean.... we live on the planet too!
beetle... whoever that guy who flew meteors was.... bet he was a good un.
lazs
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Lazs, Norman Tebbit, satirised as Normo Tebbs and a well known hard bastard. He was Thatchers hit man, you knew when he visited by the body count.
He also survived the IRA Brighton Bomb when they tried to off Thatcher. His wife unfortunately was paralysed from the waist down, they're still together.
He was Thatchers Pitt Bull on the leash. I F*cking hated him.
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Originally posted by Vudak
What's the difference between the House of Commons and the House of Lords?
I was once dragged to a chick flick that said a position in the House of Lords is a hereditary title. For some odd reason, despite being American, I feel a bit uncomfortable going about my day believing that based on the testimony of hollywood.
The House of Commons is the lower house (like US Congress?), the House of Lords the upper house. The UK is divided into about 670 constituencies. Political parties can field a candidate in any or all of those constituencies. When we go to vote, we don't vote for Howard or for Blair as such - unless we happen to live in the constituency represented by those MPs. We vote for the candidate representing the party we want to elect. Whoever gets the most votes in his/her wins the vote for that constituency, and a seat in the House of Commons. Whichever party wins the most seats becomes the elected government.
Tebbo was cool - the original Essex Boy from Ponders End! I read his autobiography. He hated those snivelling welfare bums, and people who refused to help themselves by learning a new trade or profession as their old skills became redundant with the passage of time. More power to his elbow. He was also a pilot for BOAC, flying 707s until 1970.
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F**king hated him and the Thatcher Govt too.
Wrecked our country and turned us into some sh*te parody of a certain bigger country!
Think it was the sod you jack I'm ok attitude that they preached messed up this country for good.
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Dowding, if you guys would behave we might consider letting ya become a state in the USofA.
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We already were lol
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they can be a state so long as they don't get the right to vote.
chortle... the guy sounds pretty cool to me. Bet he and I would get along fine. What was wrong with Thatcher? didn't she fix your socialist economy a little?
lazs
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Depends on your view, Tebbit and Thatcher are idolised by the right and villified by the left.
Telling 20,000 3rd generation miners they were no longer needed as coal could be bought much cheaper from 12 year olds in the Malaysia needed a firm hand, but they seemed to relish it. Tebbit was a thug in a suit as far as I'm concerned, amusing to have a chat with no doubt but not someone you want running your life.
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How did he feel about gun control?
and... I don't want anyone running my life...
lazs
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I haven't seen a Thatcher/Tebbit/Ventura quote that I didn't agree with.
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Chortle/Blue2
I know things were tough for those stuck in 19th century industries with 18th century working practices as late as 1980. Labour had allowed industries to fester, while they poured money into them - money raised by having an 83% top rate of income tax, with a 15% investment income surcharge, making a total tax take of 98%. There was a GREAT deal of catching up to be done to drag industry into the computer age. I'm sure the cloth cap culture was cosy, but car workers spending their winter days standing around braziers with strike placards? It couldn't go on...
I had a good ding-dong about all this with Dowding about two years ago. I'm glad he's finally seeing the light, as can be seen from the title of this thread.
Beet1e & Dowding ding-dong thread from 2002 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71804)
Ignore Lazs's walls-o-text in the above thread. I think he was suffering from PMT/PMS at the time. Either that, or one of his cats pissed in his supply of gunpowder.
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cat piss actualy increases the explosive power of gunpowder by 30%
thats what it means when you buy a " +P " round.
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yup... john is correct, That is the real reason I have two cats.... I didn't have the heart to tell that to beetle when he visited tho... it might have put him off shooting myu guns that were "cat powered".
lazs
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Never woulda figured you for a cat owner lazs, guess you're just multi-faceted. Sure you don't live in an apartment? ;)
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cats are girly pets
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Suave, how about Thatchers 'There is no such thing as society' quote? or 'A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure'
Lazs, I'd have to google Tebbits gun control view as I've no idea. I'm guessing he'd be ok with guns in the 'right' hands.
Beetle, interesting read. Still think the miners were screwed though, admittedly by their own leaders as much as the govt.
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how about Thatchers 'There is no such thing as society' quote?
The full quote doesn't say what the abreviated versions suggest.
What she actually said was:
"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation"
What she was saying is that "scoiety" is made up of individuals, and that any burdens placed on "society" are met by the individuals who make up that society.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure
Interesting quote, and not one I've ever heard before. And having been very interested in politics through the 80s, I find that strange.
A bit of digging finds the first reference to this quote is a liberal mp in parliament, in 2003. Google finds 13 repetitions of it, all subsequent, most referencing the same liberal mp.
Given that most Maggie quotes are easy to find, I think it's made up, quite honestly.
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iron and nielsen... the cats are left over from my daughter and after having dogs... the cats are a whole lot easier to deal with... food, water, litter... see ya in a week.
At work I actually got the cat on my own. we are in the country. dogs are for looks and people who don't have real friends... cats work. no mice or snakes or other nasty vermin around the machinery eating wires and such with work cats around.
lazs
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Nashwan, your probably right on both counts. I've such dislike even now of Conservatism from that period that I sometimes go off half-cocked. I certainly dont remember the bus speech, but had heard it attributed so threw it in anyway.
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Hehe, just yankin' yer chain lazs.
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Originally posted by Chortle
Nashwan, your probably right on both counts. I've such dislike even now of Conservatism from that period that I sometimes go off half-cocked. I certainly dont remember the bus speech, but had heard it attributed so threw it in anyway.
Chortle,
were you or either of your parents employed by one of the nationalised/unionised industries during the 1970s?
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my dad asked me about this awhile ago
what plane did Bush fly?
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No Beetle, I was still in shorts and my parents were white collar. I got this chip on my shoulder all by myself, even before I started reading the Guardian ;)
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Simshell - don't know about GB2 (Dubya). Maybe he flew F16s for the CIA and VOSS was his CO.
GB1 was the youngest pilot in the USN in 1945, and flew a TBM Avenger. It's on the USS Yorktown. I've seen it!
Originally posted by Chortle
No Beetle, I was still in shorts and my parents were white collar. I got this chip on my shoulder all by myself, even before I started reading the Guardian ;)
Oh no, the Guardian... :(
If you read the Beet1e/Dowding ding-dong thread, you'll see that I was always very much one for improving my own lot, instead of waiting for the Government to do it for me. That's why I'm a Thatcherite/Tebbo-ite. I can't stand the culture of people digging their heels in, refusing to learn new technology or new methods of working.
That's why, in the Aces High game, instead of whining about the CV getting sunk or HQ getting flattened, I was always one of the ones to do something about it - either by prevention (interception) or cure (resupply). The socialists in the MA were the ones who, instead of doing something about it, would whine to HTC to have THEM do something about it. Waaah - harden HQ/CVs. They wanted Nanny to do it for them. The MA Trotskyites were the folks who, instead of working out how to play a bad hand as best as they could, would dictate the terms under which they were prepared to play: "I want my fields to be here and here, with *my* ride(s) to be available at all times, and I don't want to have to fly more than 1½ minutes before I can start shooting cons".
And the ENY whiners were just plain communists. They wanted Nanny to help them by giving them the nicest planes at all times. They didn't want to have to learn anything new. No telling them to get on their bikes if their favourite ride had been ENY disabled. For them, the game was unplayable if they couldn't have a P51/LA7, and they would go on strike - not for better pay, but for an increase in the MA attendance value before ENY limiting is initiated. They'll be happy when it's set to 1000.
And then there was me, the Thatcherite. Never flew a Big5 plane in the last two years I played. Never complained about ENY limiting, never whined about my HQ being destroyed. Did what I could to defend the CVs, resupplied HQ or intercepted inbound LANCs. Sure, it could be boring making the flight (it took more than 2 minutes to get on station), but it was a job which had to be done. Resupply was another job which had to be done. The whiners were the ones who wanted Nanny to do it for them. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by simshell
what plane did Bush fly?
GHWB:
(http://www.aerosphere.com/Art_Collectors/Untitled/Bush/Plane/Bush_lg.jpg)
GWB:
(http://www.philsaeronauticalstuff.com/aircraft%20photos/f-106/images/airshowf-106a-1.jpg)
although his said Texas on the tail
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Beetle, you’ll get no argument out of me that things were fine and didn’t need to change. What sticks in my throat is how the misery caused by the miners strike in 84 is held up as one of Thatcher’s crowning achievements and miners themselves demonised as scrounging, whining communists permanently begging for handouts.
There was no national ballot on strike action, but Scargill went ahead anyway. In those mines that held a ballot many voted against it.
Personally, I cant see how smashing unions, the majority of who’s members would traditionally vote against you or populist exploitation of the winter of discontent qualify Thatcher for such adoration. She stockpiled coal at power stations, and set the scene for the unions to self-destruct. Admittedly watching mounted police charge strikers needed a strong stomach, but hey, they were all communists anyway.
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Originally posted by Chortle
Personally, I cant see how smashing unions, the majority of who’s members would traditionally vote against you or populist exploitation of the winter of discontent qualify Thatcher for such adoration.
You don't see it, even though you gave the reason yourself, further up. No Beetle, I was still in shorts
So you wouldn't remember the Union wrecking years of the 1970s, when the Labour government ministers were mere puppets in the hands of their trade union paymasters. It was because of all that 70s crap that taxes were so high and entrepreneurial ventures never stood a chance in Britain - hence the brain drain. You wouldn't remember that for three winters out of four in the years 1970-74, our homes were subject to being blacked out by power cuts caused by striking mine workers and/or electricity workers. I remember revising for my mock O levels by candle light. And I remember my father's tax bills, and his ashen face after he'd opened one.
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we has similar misery with the buggy whip makers of the 1890's and the typwriter workers of the 1990's..
and iron... sure... pick on poor ol harmless, defenseless lazs..
lazs
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So Beetle you forgotten all the crap the conservatives forced down our throats last time they were in ?
They also in my opinion have no credible leader, and thats also the opinion of many in the party.
And when it comes to tax cuts pre election then all parties are the same.
When elected they openly give it back with one hand while they think of ways to take it back behind your back.
Anybody who believes tax cut pledges and votes on that premise is a sucker.
Having rippled the surface of your pond i shall now retreat to the murky depths :)
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214th - you're wrong. The Cons brought income tax (top rate) down from 83% to 40%, where it has stayed ever since.
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Nice comparison Laz, I can just imagine whole towns and villages depending on the buggy whip and typewriter industries, buggy whip brass bands marching down the streets, typewriter male voice choirs singing....brings a tear to my eye.
Beetle, I remember power cuts and to be honest really enjoyed them. We sang revolutionary songs round the fire drinking vodka and eating borsch.
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lol Chortle :D
Shame I've been away these last few days, would have contributed. Although that thread Beetle posted above does have most of what I wanted to say in it.
One thing I will say about the whole Miner's strike, to sum up, relates to the arrogance of the Southern bastards brought into the fray by Thatcher. The Metropolitan Police force or 'Met' posted "You've met the Met" stickers all over my local town during the trouble. In a way they were the spokespeople of Thatcherite maliciousness - supposed to be keeping the law, not provoking the infringement of it.
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Yeah riiiight Beetle.
Cons brought the top band of income tax for the elite 0.001% of earners down to 40%.
Well done as i agree it was extortionate anyway.
But what about everybody else ?
Btw i have been a paid member in the past as well, I have also seen how they operate at local level.
Have you been out knocking on doors canvassing for them at election time yet Beetle ?
Try it :D
Locally i will NEVER vote Labour, as last time they were in control they screwed us big time.
Overspending the budget on all sorts of underprivilidged do gooder crap, then they just upped and walked out of office when the going got tough in mid term!
Conservatives locally had to step in and slash and burn the budget drastically, Labour in following local elections had the cheek to try and suggest it was the conservatives who were responsible for the loss of services.
Nationally though I can admire TB for sticking to his guns and taking what he considers to be the correct course of action.
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier
Cons brought the top band of income tax for the elite 0.001% of earners down to 40%.
Well done as i agree it was extortionate anyway.
But what about everybody else ?
The new 40% top rate was better for everyone, because tax receipts actually went up. That's because with marginal tax rates competitive with the rest of the world, fewer felt the need to seek out a tax haven overseas, so more money was spent in Britain instead. And that can only be good.
What Labour could never work out is that you can't make 20,000,000 people better off by levying a punitive taxation burden upon a few thousand people. Labour's "soak the rich" methodology proved that. Yeah, they gave something back: The butter subsidy. Labour subsidised the price of a ½lb package of butter to the tune of ½p. Wow, that must have made some pensioners 20p a year better off.
No, I've not done any door banging or envelope stuffing.
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Cons brought the top band of income tax for the elite 0.001% of earners down to 40%.
Elite 0.001%?
The threshold for the 83% tax rate was £24,000
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chortle.. whole towns were dominated by remington rand typwriters. Another example would be steel mills that were outdated and not competitive...we had a bunch of em... we don't now.
lazs
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Nashwan £24000 back then would seem a lot more than £24000 now, and besides i was exagerating :D
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£24000 would still have hit quite a lot of people, doctors, solicitors, etc, let alone many small businessmen.
Another example would be steel mills that were outdated and not competitive...we had a bunch of em... we don't now.
I thought you still did, that's why Bush introduced protectionist measures for them a year or two ago. :)