Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Habu on November 04, 2004, 03:28:21 PM
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I just wondered what they are like. Fun to fly or not?
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Flown one. Very fun to fly.
Of course, cars will beat you to any destination, but that's not why it's fun to fly them anyway.
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Flown, fun though a little mundane...
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Have flown an N3N, pretty similar but the N3N has 4 ailerons instead of two, and an all metal structure.
Fun to fly, not exciting, but great in the summer when the wind isn't too strong.
Flew one evening as the sun was starting to set along the St. Croix river, 1000ft AGL, gentle flight wagging wings to the boats below, was a perfect flight.
This is a picture of my oldest son standing in front of the aircraft.
(http://www.cpinternet.com/~tlong1//ericn3n1.jpg)
dago
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There's 3 Primary Trainers of note from WW2. The Stearman, the Fairchild PT-19 and the Ryan PT-22.
I've got a lot of time in the Fairchild, some time in the Ryan and just a flight in a Stearman.
If you're thinking of buying or just a flight, go with the Ryan or the Fairchild.
All of them are built to meet the performance specs the Army laid out, so they all are about the same in speed and climb and such. Minor differences only. They're about like a C-172 at best.
Biggest part of it for me was the view. The Ryan and Fairchild are low wing monoplanes. You can see forever; it's a like flying a convertible.
The Stearman is all wings and struts and wires and stuff obstructing the view. Bleah.
Plus, for some unknown reason, Stearmans cost way more than either Ryans or Fairchilds. Performance is the same, so beauty must be in the eye of the beholder.
The Ryan has a tiny little cockpit and my head stuck up way above the windscreens. That's why I went Fairchild when I bought.
Enjoy, though, they are al lfun.
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Plus, for some unknown reason, Stearmans cost way more than either Ryans or Fairchilds. Performance is the same, so beauty must be in the eye of the beholder.
One word aerobatics...
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Both the Fairchild and the Ryan are fully aerobatic.
I don't know the G-limits for the three but they'll be very close due to the Army specs.
I can tell you this; the Stearman feels like a dump truck compared to the controls of either the Fairchild or Ryan.
And yes, I've done loop, roll, spin, lazy eight, split S in them.
The one thing that never will change is that you can't see shirt out of a Stearman compared to a Ryan or Fairchild. Whoever gets stuck in the front seat of a Stearman REALLY can't see shirt.
Stearman is much trickier in a strong crosswind too. Important if you're not good at wingtip/fabric work yourself. ;)
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Personally, I think the Ryan is the "looker".
(http://www.yellowairplane.com/pics/Viewers_Pages/Dan_Collier_Ryan231.jpg)
Next would be the Fairchild.
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My mother's father used to fly the old PT-22 that a friend of his owned up in Denton, Texas. I got to ride in it long ago...it was quite fun. That was before an accident wrecked the thing. :(
My dad's father has been hard at work restoring a Stearman. I'll be going up in that once it's done. :D
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I flew in a Stearman and the best way to describe how it felt, especially as compared to even marginal acro planes like the Great Lakes, was, ummmm, stately. It will do most positive G acro maneuvers (including so I've heard a lomcevak), but on its own terms, which generally means very slowly. For a similar speed, wind in the hair and song in the wires kind of biplane experience, I'd take the Great Lakes or even an experimental like a Starduster, but of course that wouldn't involve "living history" like a Stearman.
For a great read, try Steven Coonts' "The Cannibal Queen"; it describes a trip across, around and through the US in a Stearman. Coonts, btw, is the formal Naval aviator who wrote "Flight of the Intruder"
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Texace, was that Don Singleton's Ryan? He was further East than Denton, though. At least his farm hangar was. Heard the motor quit on him and it was pranged pretty hard in a muddy field.
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It may have been, Toad. The only thing I remember about the aircraft was that up until the accident it was hangered at the Hanger 10 Flying Museum at Denton Muni, owned by Dr. Jim Almand. He's the same man that own one of the last flying Lockheed L-10 Electras.
As far as I know the aircraft was flown on a regular basis up until the accident when the motor quit on take-off and it crashed into a field. As far as I know the aircraft is still in Hanger 10, missing the wings and tail. New wings were supposed to go on but I lost track of the aircraft once I started college.
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Probably not the same aircraft then. Don kept his at his farm over NE of Dallas. He was flying it down to Addison to get the annual done when he had engine problems. He tried to get it down but the field was muddy and it didn't roll when it touched down, it stuck.
Interesting though... I didn't know there was one at Denton. I flew that Cub they used to rent out at Denton and I knew a guy there with a Globe Swift that was pretty neat. Didn't know there was a Ryan on the field though.
When I was looking for a Ryan, I knew where most of them were. There was only about 40 of them airworthy at the time. I went to the 50th reunion at Hemet and saw most of those. It was a great time.
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Originally posted by Toad
There's 3 Primary Trainers of note from WW2. The Stearman, the Fairchild PT-19 and the Ryan PT-22.
3 Primary American Trainers of note?
Tiger Moth looks awesome to fly
(http://photos.airliners.net/middle/3/1/2/644213.jpg)
As does the German Bucker Jungmann
(http://rafaero.free.fr/Photos/bucker.jpg)
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I am 6' 7" so a small cockpit is definetly not a viable option for me. I have found a pretty good deal on a Stearman that is located on the west coast but it is the wrong time of year to fly out there in my Cessna to check it out. There is a local one near me that I can go and see but I don't know if I will be able to fly it. The guy that owns it is a collector and it mostly sits in his hanger unused.
I have never even considered a Fairchild before but I am going to read up on them today. One of my major concerns is cost of maintanance and the Stearman is not too bad in that department. There are enough of them around that you can still get engines and other things for a fairly resonable price.
Very interesting to read the comments in this thread so far. Keep them up. Your experiences and opinions are very interesting.
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Toad do you still have your Ryan?
BTW, I hope your health issues get worked out for the best. I've definiately been thinking about you and hoping it all goes OK.
Are you able to keep your medical given the treatment you're on?
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Crow,
I am 6' 2" and about 230; the Ryan was too small for me. It also has a limiteed pilot/passenger load and relatively "short legs". With my head sticking up above the windscreens, I kept getting smacked in the forehead with the big bugs.
I ended up owning a Fairchild for 13 years. I loved it; a superb airplane for plain old fun. Probably the best tailwheel trainer I could ever have picked for introducing my sons to flying.
I lost my medical in 2002 and went through appeals without luck. So, I sold it in 2003; after that the FAA wrote me and said they thought I might be able to get it back. Gotta love it... then this currently unresolved kidney cancer thing popped up. I'll just have to see how it all plays out. The medical is not my major concern right now.
Anyway, the guy I sold it to lets me go flying with him anytime I want to, so it's OK. He let me fly it for two hours in July... jeez, that was sweet.
Habu, at one time we had 4 PT-19's in the family. Parts aren't that bad and they are an extremely simple aircraft to work on.
At present, my brother has a freshly-restored Fairchild in Lincoln, NE for sale. He's a US Air pilot and they're in bankruptcy for the second or tenth time or something. This airplane has about 25 hours on it out of restoration. It was taken down to the very last nut and bolt. It has a fullyl rebuilt center section, the wings have been totally redone, the engine built up by a very experienced builder that did all our engines.
If you want to fly it, let me know.
Trust me on this... don't buy a Stearman until you fly a Fairchild. Fairchilds have torque tube/ball bearing control connections. The only "cable control" on a Fairchild is the elevator trim. You will be amazed at the difference in control pressures in a Stearman and a Fairchild. You can literally fly a trimmed Fairchild using one finger on top of the stick. Second, the view is OUTSTANDING. Third, without doubt, the Fairchild is the best crosswind aircraft of the three US trainers. Check out the size of the vertical stab and rudder. Fourth, Fairchilds are WAY cheaper than Stearmans. Fifth, if you are 6'7", you are going to be cramped in the back seat of a Stearman and amazed at how much room you have in a Fairchild. Also, if you want to go cross country, a Fairchild has a 3 hour range with an hour of reserve. Both the Ryan and Stearman are about 1.5 with a .5 hour reserve. That's been a big comfort to me a few times when the weather got dicey.
Fly both before you buy... you'll be amazed at how good a Fairchild flies. And for far less money.
This was my aircraft:
(http://new.kcghostsquadron.org/gallery/albums/pt-19/Twin_PTs.jpg)
I owned 33; that's me in the front and my Dad in the back. Dad trained in Fairchilds in 1942.
50 was my brother's first Fairchild; it's already sold. He's in the front and his old squadron CO is in the back. My brother flew 50 while the other one was being restored. The restoration was done by the fellow (IA) that restored my aircraft from a pile of parts in someone's back yard.
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Toad
Can you email me with the details on the plane (price TTAF damage history etc)? And also where it is located and a picture if possible.
I like the range and the fact it would fit a larger pilot. Crosswind handleing is a big plus as well.
My email is artgarden@on.aibn.com
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Originally posted by Furball
3 Primary American Trainers of note?
From Britain, there was also the Chipmunk (http://www.deltaaviation.co.uk/html/aircraft_chipmunk.html)!
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Habu,
My brother will be in contact via E-mail shortly. I'm down here in Houston doing this kidney thing. You might as well talk directly to him.
Worst you'll do out of this is get a fun ride in a great airplane, even if you decide not to buy it. I think though if you fly a Fairchild and then a Stearman... you'll lose interest in Stearmans.
;)
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Thanks Toad.
Good luck with the treatment. I know it will go well for you.
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I most certainly should have said " WW2 AMERICAN Primary Trainers.
The Tiger Moth is nice but pretty underpowered from what I've heard. The Bücker Bü-133 Jungmeister is a great, fun airplane. I had a buddy that owned one of the few in the US for a while. Parts are a real problem though and it is another small airplane with a real small cockpit.
Chipmunks are great airplanes too. But it wasn't really a ww2 trainer. It first flew in 1946.
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There is a flying Tiger Moth and club located at Collingwood airport north of Toronto. I have a hanger there as well and see it flying all the time. I have never asked what they charge for a ride or sat in it, but it is a really cool airplane to watch.
It is small and low powered and reminds me of an ultralight in many ways. Perhaps next summer I will go up for a ride.
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BTW, Beet.. I so enjoy the way you dance so semantically when you are wrong that I must point out one other thing.
The de Havilland Canada DHC-1 Chipmunk
The Chipmunk is a Canadian designed aircraft, not British per se.
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Gee, Habu... didn't realize you were Canadian.
He also has a Fairchild PT-26 in Canadian paint. A lot of your boys trained in Fairchilds for the big one. My dad flies the -26; he's old and the canopy makes for a longer flying season in cold places like Lincoln, NE and Canada. Otherwise, it's the same airplane.
It looks about like this.
(http://www.mujweb.cz/www/kolesa/images/book03_02.jpg)
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Your link is bad, you did not copy the whole address.
Yes I live north of Toronto but do not worry if I bought the plane I would probably fly it to the US quite a bit for Oshkosh and such. And you would always be welcome to come up here to go flying.
I own a 40 by 60 heated hanger and currently have a trike and a 182. I always wanted a warbird to fly to shows and generally just keep polished and preserved.
Funny you mention the Chipmunk. There is one at Buttonville airport that is immaculate. The guy is keeping it outside so I am going to approach him about storeing it in my hanger over the winter.
I was at a paint shop at Oshawa airport (these are all around Toronto) on Wednesday and saw a Harvard that they had just about finished restoring. It had its side pannels off and looked amazing.
I should start to carry my digital camera around and take pictures of these things and post them here.
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My link?Or Beet's? I'm seeing the Canadian PT-26 drawing in the thread.
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Your link Toad. It is just a red box. You other picture came out fine in the earlier post though.
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Hmmm... shows up in my thread and the link looks complete.
Here's a different one then:
(http://www.100megspopup.com/photo4phood/webaircraft/c03pt26-1a.jpg)
A good shot of the insides of one:
(http://www.pimaair.org/Acftdatapics/imge037.jpg)
Old B/W shot
(http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/2870L.jpg)
One at a Canadian museum with the outer wing panel off
(http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/databases/images/19599.jpg)
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Originally posted by beet1e
From Britain, there was also the Chipmunk (http://www.deltaaviation.co.uk/html/aircraft_chipmunk.html)!
As toad has already said, the chipmunk was a little later. Were you thinking of the Miles Master?
http://www.miles-aircraft.com/M.9a_and_m.24_master.html
That was the more advanced trainer (i think) rather than a primary.
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Toad
I hope the proceedure goes well for you. My prayers are with you.
I know your brother is coming down to be with you. Tell him we can link up next week by phone.
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Originally posted by Toad
I lost my medical in 2002 and went through appeals without luck. So, I sold it in 2003; after that the FAA wrote me and said they thought I might be able to get it back. Gotta love it... then this currently unresolved kidney cancer thing popped up. I'll just have to see how it all plays out. The medical is not my major concern right now.
Sorry to hear about the medical.
Once you feel well enough to fly, I guess you can roll into the new Sport Pilot rating since it doesn't require a medical. Cubs and Champs are a blast...especially Champs.
Also, you can self certify "fit to fly" for gliders...that goes for motor-gliders too, which include some aircraft that a person would be hard pressed to tell that they weren't a normal powered plane when sitting in the cockpit.
Hang in there!
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Nah, I don't fit in Sport Medical either because I was once turned down for a medical. When they denied my attempt after the heart stent, that knocked me out of the game.
It 's no biggie. I have many friends that are more than generous with stick time in a variety of neat aircraft. Got about an hour in a Citabria two weeks ago.