Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: humble on November 04, 2004, 07:03:24 PM
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Just died again to a buff on "final" so low over the water you couldnt even see the icon. I can tell you right now that when (not if) I quit this game for last time (I promise:)) this will be why.
Heres a dweeb (all low level buffers are spineless dweebs period) on auto with a perfect gun platform at 15 ft who can light up all comers with his "turbo" powered 50 cals (still x10 "power" if I recall). No buff formation would fly at this level. I think that "drones should be reconfigured so that they "detach" and land immediatly once you go below 2500 ft (above ground) also multiplier should be disabled below that level as well....
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Here's a dweeb gonna get him an easy kill vulching a buff on final ... oh wait ... no it ain't. :D
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, its the easiest way to fly buffs. Path of least resistance... welcome to Aces High.
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Originally posted by humble
Just died again to a buff on "final" so low over the water you couldnt even see the icon. I can tell you right now that when (not if) I quit this game for last time (I promise:)) this will be why.
Heres a dweeb (all low level buffers are spineless dweebs period) on auto with a perfect gun platform at 15 ft who can light up all comers with his "turbo" powered 50 cals (still x10 "power" if I recall). No buff formation would fly at this level. I think that "drones should be reconfigured so that they "detach" and land immediatly once you go below 2500 ft (above ground) also multiplier should be disabled below that level as well....
Humble sorry but you are wrong bombers did fly low sometimes. British lancs would straffe airfields on thier way home during night raids..... plus many more low missions were out there. True 80% were high alt missions but not all. /Matter of fact my Mother inlaw told me how american bomber crashed near her property in ww2 by hiting a tree on its way to oil fields in romania. I think killing bombers low alt 3 times easier than high alt bomber.
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Im sorry...but if you cant kill a low buff formation....you need practice,
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Originally posted by Arlo
Here's a dweeb gonna get him an easy kill vulching a buff on final ... oh wait ... no it ain't. :D
Anytime anyplace anywhere....any plane
I love this BS reply. The truth is simple....its not easy to kill buffs right on the water...especially if your not in optimal position...you either let em go or you take a beating. The game is set up to give buffs certain advantages...elevated hitting power and coordinated gunnery. No real issues, but when buffs are allowed to utilize those benifits in unforseen ways you create an issue....that simple.
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Originally posted by rod367th
Humble sorry but you are wrong bombers did fly low sometimes. British lancs would straffe airfields on thier way home during night raids..... plus many more low missions were out there. True 80% were high alt missions but not all. /Matter of fact my Mother inlaw told me how american bomber crashed near her property in ww2 by hiting a tree on its way to oil fields in romania. I think killing bombers low alt 3 times easier than high alt bomber.
I'm not arguing that bombers didnt fly low...they did. The raid you refer to was rare but bombers bombed at about ~800 ft. Light bombers often flew true NOE over france.
My issue is with the gunnery modifier and "auto convergance" at alt under 50 ft. As for the "Easy kill" I totally disagree unless your only attacking with an optimal setup.
14-5 lancs
6-3 B-17s
8-3 B-26's
Thats 2nd half of last tour after change to AKhumble...all in Ki-61 probably so not an ideal buff killer. And probably all attacked cause no one else was in position to or I'd of left em alone.
I have no issue with NOE or low level...I have an issue with flying at 15 ft "pop up" bombing or suicide bombing....thats not the same thing.
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HTC has repeatdly stated that buff guns are no more powerful than fighter guns. Obviously there are more of them.
Attack smarter next time and don't whine if you fail....jeez.
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What is this "autoconvergence" you speak of?
Buff guns do not converge on the target. The computer has no way of knowing what the target is, or what the desired convergence is.
What does "x10 power" mean?
Buff guns are no more powerful than any other aircraft's guns of the same make. In the case of the American bombers the .50s are the same as the .50s in the P-51 abd every other American aircraft.
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Originally posted by humble
Anytime anyplace anywhere....any plane
Cause I'm da man, get em how I can.
Any plane high or low.
Even over the rainbow.
On the deck.
Fast or slow.
On the runway, don't ya know.
Cause I'm humble .... yes, I'm humble.
I don't brag man.
But those bombers kinda suck man.
Even when they land man.
Hehehe .... don't let it all get to ya, Humble.
BS deserves BS.
:D
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Originally posted by humble
My issue is with the gunnery modifier and "auto convergance" at alt under 50 ft. As for the "Easy kill" I totally disagree unless your only attacking with an optimal setup.
Do you think that you could do better if each buff had 6 live gunners aboard?
The faster plane ALWAYS controls the fight. In a fighter VS bomber you always have the choice to engage, run or reposition. Your problem was that he was on final, so you only had a choice of attacking from a bad position while you could, or to run.
You bet that “they” would be too busy trying to approach for landing to man the guns. You made the unrealistic bet that you could attack 3 bombers with 18 gunners aboard without being noticed, and then hose them all down because. You figured that this would work because you expected that all 18 gunners would be in the cockpits helping the pilots land.
You expected a freebie (or 3) because you knew the game makes an unrealistic concession of making a single bomber pilot do the jobs of 30 men.
You made the wrong bet, came here and whined, in spite of your name.
eskimo
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Just died again to a buff on "final" so low over the water you couldnt even see the icon. I can tell you right now that when (not if) I quit this game for last time (I promise) this will be why.
So dont attack low buffs anymore.
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Originally posted by humble
No buff formation would fly at this level. I think that "drones should be reconfigured so that they "detach" and land immediatly once you go below 2500 ft (above ground) also multiplier should be disabled below that level as well....
nope.. never..
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/71_1099651669_do17z.jpg)
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Ever tried it with rockets (just one at the right spot can do it)? You don't even need to be in his gunrange.
If belly-scraping NOE is gamey, last I checked the cannon splash against water/ground still works.
Most efficient gunning down is with proper approach, fast, off center and preferably by surprise and/or with a wingman. Blind spots are a no brainer. Although AGL it's not as easy, you might be able to **** with the bogie's keyboard skills, fooling him into switching back and forth between positions.
Unless I'm mistaken you still only have to manage one wingtip to make any bomber tip over. Especially time-efficient if he's AGL.
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Harder to do, but maybe try approaching friom "not 6" and treating like a strafing run vs M16....
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Originally posted by jpeg
HTC has repeatdly stated that buff guns are no more powerful than fighter guns. Obviously there are more of them.
Attack smarter next time and don't whine if you fail....jeez.
Actually HT has verified the multiplier....unless it was altered when buffs went to "formation" it still exists...
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Sigh....
Sometimes the overall wattage coming from the BBS astounds me......
1st it's not a whine...it's a complaint. There is actually a difference between the two. We all whine from time to time...I'm guilty of it and so is just about everyone who posted here. As an example my last two "whines"
1st) I get waxed in a furball and immediatly ***** at mars who is right on the cons six....he got an immediate apology on open channel...not his job to chk my 6. Thats typical frustration....
2nd) A perfectly timed microwarp that took HISPD from ~300 plane form shot to 1.5 behind me...whinned on 200 bout that:):)....
Those are both clearly whines....
This is an ongoing issue regarding buff use....I have no issues with NOE....but if you allow 50 ft bombing or pop up bombing or suicide bombing now I need to either let em damage my base or intercept....since I'm not a score dweeb I do what I can...if they couldnt bomb I'd let em fly over field...but when 3 planes (one formation) can knock out all three FH on a small field like that you need to try.....
Now for the record (correct me if I'm wrong)....
1) when you fire a buff gun..all guns in the formation are slaved to that gun and "coverge" on target...so buff guns are always "on convergance" unlike other planes....
2) Buff guns have a damage effect multiplier that increases leathality
I believe both those statements are correct...
Now for those of you who have made comments on how easy it is to kill low buffs....not under the circumstances I describe. Yea its easy if your going to just let em drop and only attack when optimal....if you see a blur on the water (remember your not even seeing icons here) and its buffs 1/2 sector (12 miles or less) from your field going 300 mph...meanwhile your climbing out at 180 and 4k....its simple...you take the angle your given drop the nose hit wep and try and get a lick in on the lead plane...otherwise you lose all three FH's. I'd love to see anyone document the use of B-24s (or any hvy buff) in a tactical role flying NOE and pop up bombing a tactical target like an airfiled.
Now I have zero objection to Ju-88/A-20/Boston doing the above...those planes where all designed and utilized in exactly that type of role...even the B-26 is technically an "attack bomber" although I dont think it has quite the same capabilities as the others from a structural viewpoint...
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Two words....
skip bombing
In the Pacific 5th Air Force developed this technique and used it extensively. Primarily medium bombers .. plus B25s even were reconfigured with the 75 mm cannon to assist with attacking shipping.
Don't know of any heavies though doing skip bombing in the PAC though.
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
Two words....
skip bombing
In the Pacific 5th Air Force developed this technique and used it extensively. Primarily medium bombers .. plus B25s even were reconfigured with the 75 mm cannon to assist with attacking shipping.
Don't know of any heavies though doing skip bombing in the PAC though.
Skip bombing was done primarily with fighters or catalina's...also as you said medium bombers with outboard wing points (like A-20)...not easy to skip bomb with an internal bomb bay...
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Bombers so low as described here though the bomber itself would be blown up by any actual bomb attempt. Clearly though one has to maintain good SA at all times in the MA, and I bet this never happens to humble again. Next time he will land and thank the guy on 200 a few extra free kills he just gave him.
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Originally posted by Zanth
Bombers so low as described here though the bomber itself would be blown up by any actual bomb attempt. Clearly though one has to maintain good SA at all times in the MA, and I bet this never happens to humble again. Next time he will land and thank the guy on 200 a few extra free kills he just gave him.
I've personally seen all three FH's taken out by these "50 ft wonders" on multiple occasions. I could care less about the "free kills"...
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Do you think that you could do better if each buff had 6 live gunners aboard?
The faster plane ALWAYS controls the fight. In a fighter VS bomber you always have the choice to engage, run or reposition. Your problem was that he was on final, so you only had a choice of attacking from a bad position while you could, or to run.
You bet that “they” would be too busy trying to approach for landing to man the guns. You made the unrealistic bet that you could attack 3 bombers with 18 gunners aboard without being noticed, and then hose them all down because. You figured that this would work because you expected that all 18 gunners would be in the cockpits helping the pilots land.
You expected a freebie (or 3) because you knew the game makes an unrealistic concession of making a single bomber pilot do the jobs of 30 men.
You made the wrong bet, came here and whined, in spite of your name.
eskimo
Eskimo,
Maybe I read this wrong, but I got the impression that HUMBLE was the one on final, and was surprised by the pop-up buffs while on final, and didn't see them 'cuz they were so low.
RE: buff gun convergence. The other day I was messing around with different gunsite right after takeoff. Anyway, in trying to hit some spots on the ground with both the ball turret and the tail guns, I noticed that only my guns were hitting anywhere near the spot I had chosen as target. the guns from the drones were no where near. Maybe they don't "converge" until you're at altitude o soemthing, but at low level they didn't seem to be converging at all.
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No skip bombing was done alot with medium bombers in and around New Guinea (A20s, B25s, etc.). Of course the best altitude of skip bombing was around 200 feet.
Just found out that even B17s conducted some skip bombing.
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/1290valor.asp
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0594valor.asp
http://www.thehistorynet.com/wwii/blgeorgeckenney/
And the B25s generally were not bombing when they scrafed but they were definitely scraffers especially against shipping.
Not sure what altitude was used for parafrag bombing. Would be nice to have those also .. which we don't have now in AH2.
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at altitude use the Target command to pull up a test target.
example:
.target 500
Will set up a target 500 (or any range you want) yards out (It is always in same place I think due north)
.target 0
deactivates
edit:
you can move the same target closer and farther out, say you want to see theh bullet holes then type .target 100
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
No skip bombing was done alot with medium bombers in and around New Guinea (A20s, B25s, etc.). Of course the best altitude of skip bombing was around 200 feet.
Just found out that even B17s conducted some skip bombing.
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/1290valor.asp
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0594valor.asp
http://www.thehistorynet.com/wwii/blgeorgeckenney/
And the B25s generally were not bombing when they scrafed but they were definitely scraffers especially against shipping.
Not sure what altitude was used for parafrag bombing. Would be nice to have those also .. which we don't have now in AH2.
Just like in our lil game:
"AAF doctrine then held to bombing from altitude with nine-plane (when that many were available) squadron formations. Results had not been good, especially against maneuvering ships. Only about 1 percent of bombs dropped were hitting their targets. Clearly a better way had to be found.
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humble,
The BS whine part and your demonstrated "low wattage" in this case were yours claims that buff guns autoconverge when they do not and that buff guns are up powered, "x10 power" is how you put it and they are not.
In otherwords you buy into a couple of false myths and go on a rant about these things that don't happen being the reason you got shot down.
Given that they do not happen they obviously didn't play a part in you getting shot down.
I suggest you look for reasons elsewhere.
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Originally posted by humble
Anytime anyplace anywhere....any plane
I love this BS reply. The truth is simple....its not easy to kill buffs right on the water...especially if your not in optimal position...you either let em go or you take a beating. The game is set up to give buffs certain advantages...elevated hitting power and coordinated gunnery. No real issues, but when buffs are allowed to utilize those benifits in unforseen ways you create an issue....that simple.
You knew all this, and yet you attacked with no advantage. Shame on you, you got what you deserved:rolleyes:
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Vs just letting the buffs take out all three FH's slimm???
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well outside of not being able to dive on buffs flying at 50 ft, because of possibility of going in as a lawn dart, you really have no other option at killing buffs except fly in fast and level , jinking as much as you can and taking pop shots.....
the rocket theory works very well, if you have rockets loaded.....
this is just another way for buff flyers trying to survive, I saw 3 B24's flying so low they flew into a hillside because it could not pull up fast enough to clear them.....over land when in buffs on the deck it affects some of the players frame rates, they rather fly as low as possible with a frame rate of "7" LOL instead of flying with some alt regardless if it is 1k to 20 k just to have the ability of denying an attacking fighters to get below them....flying low like this keeps them from having to switch to the lower guns they can stay in the tail or top turret
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Just remembered something but at work so can't test.
But way back in AH1 HTC put into the code that bombs had to travel a certain distance to arm before they would go off. Something like 500 ft of distance.
This doesn't correspond exactly to alt. But it did correspond to the physical distance the bomb travelled on its drop before hitting the ground. Part vertical distance and part horizontal .. eg. bomb dropped doesn't just go straight down but continues moving forward also as it bleeds off the energy state of the aircraft that dropped it.
Now I don't know if its still in place in AH2. But if it is .. a buff flying at 50 ft and dropping its bombs would be useless. Its bombs wouldn't arm since it would travel far enough to arm the bombs at that alt.
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Originally posted by Karnak
humble,
The BS whine part and your demonstrated "low wattage" in this case were yours claims that buff guns autoconverge when they do not and that buff guns are up powered, "x10 power" is how you put it and they are not.
In otherwords you buy into a couple of false myths and go on a rant about these things that don't happen being the reason you got shot down.
Given that they do not happen they obviously didn't play a part in you getting shot down.
I suggest you look for reasons elsewhere.
Are you sure they are false?
I'm not complaining that I got shot down...
I'm complaining about the circumstances that forced me to engage. I'll give you a different example, yesterday morning I took my morning hop...encountered and killed a couple of cons. Was over an enemy field and noticed a spitty upping...also had a friendly engaged low with a P-51 away from the field...asked him if he was OK and he said no and asked for me to engage...I left the spitty alone and engaged and killed the pony and got killed by the spitty....perfectly fine game play...I could of bounced the spit then cleaned up the low slow pony and taken my four pelts home...or do what I did and take my chances with the spitty. Simple choice to make...I made the one I make every time.
I'm complaining about the fact that I'm forced to make a choice here that I dont consider valid. The spitty didnt "game the game" and if he wasnt a good stick I'd of killed him even with the advantage I gave him...and he got a GK not a whine afterward.
I'm simply voicing a complaint regarding game play here, agree or disagree. Why attack me for the complaint or twist things out of context?
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Humble.
They can be frustrating but unless they bounce you at landing they are not dangerous.
I would sugest you use up some perk points on a hog C..it really really is fun to wade into some of 0 ft buffs in a hog C.
I would also sugest you try a sorti on the deck on buffs and see how invulnerable you feel. I will aggree that the chance for an almost random death is very high fighting them and that is the kind of thing that bumbs out many game vets but really they are near helpless against a hog c. When they have to manuver over features and try to keep in formation with 800 rounds of hizooka to make em pay it is fantastic. When those bombers wing up and give you a full plane form at 300 yards you can just light up the whole thing...man its heaven.. the real trick is to hurt all three as soon as possible so that you will get credit for the kills when the lead get blown up in a hard turn and the drones auger.
When they are on the deck over water. Its no harder, same plane but you light up a patch of water in front of them..you know they are flying through it. With a front diving shot you will not likley be hurt but he will.
I think its dweeby too. But the bomber is way more effective and deadly at alt then it is on the deck.
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NOE formations is just assinine. End of story.
It allows one player to soak up 2 or 3 fighters worth of CAP - and forces the defenders to engage because of the high risk of all FH's being downed by 1 player in 1 pass.
Having the formation detach below some altitude would be tough because it'd have to be based on some kind of timer - to allow climb out, etc. ... so it could be gamed.
But if formation drones (a) didn't fire defensive guns and (b) were made more fragile when they were below 2500 ft AGL ... then it gets interesting. An NOE formation is basically handing over 2 free kills as the drones should die as quick as Zekes, and it only has the defensive gunnery of the lead ship - so it can't be a mobile AAA battery. As long as the formation stays above 2500 AGL, they get all their goodies.
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Originally posted by humble
Vs just letting the buffs take out all three FH's slimm???
Well, in light of that, I recant my earlier statement, if I may. Instead, it looks like a truly heroic act on your part, to dive down in the face of certain death to save your base. Truly, I salute your effort.
;)
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hehe...I'm not whinning...I'm complaining:)....
if some guy wants to park his buff 20 ft over the water and think...gee how many dorks gonna be dumb enough to come down and play thats fine...no diff than putting M-16 in tree line and watching carnage (saw that last night:))....simply tweaked about the choices I was handed....I've let em go before and it seems like the probability of losing the FH is awful high on the small fields. So now if my number comes up I engage em...
Pongo...
I flew the -1 hog last tour as my primary fighter. Even the 6 x 50's give you a decent chance at longer ranges...the Ki-61 ballistics force you in close...the 20mm fire so fast you cant spray....basically cant open up till inside 300. With the poor ballistics firing under high G load wont work either so you cant "swoop em"...basically I drove in 90 to buffs....chopped and skidded and opened up at ~200 or so got flashes then 1st ping got oil wing tip and pilot wound....
Buffs were on final to "our" base on FH line....no other friendlies in position to engage that I saw....
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Now you have my dandruff up.
Actually HT has verified the multiplier....unless it was altered when buffs went to "formation" it still exists...
Buffs have never had a multiplier, I have never implied they did, in fact every time some one comes up saying they do , I describe exatly why it feels like they do when shooting from the rear.
I repeat again the buff guns are no different than any other gun of the same type. Does that make it clear enough humble.
HiTech
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A kill has been recorded.
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If your going to attack a formation of bombers in that situation (Basically you are rolling the dice :eek: ), in my opinion, attack with a lot of E from their 2 o'clock or 10 o'clock and AIM FOR THE COCKPIT :D
hehe...I'm not whinning...I'm complaining
Didn't know there was a distinct difference. Did they offer you any Cheese with your Whine? :D Just Teasing.
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Originally posted by hitech
Now you have my dandruff up.
Buffs have never had a multiplier, I have never implied they did, in fact every time some one comes up saying they do , I describe exatly why it feels like they do when shooting from the rear.
I repeat again the buff guns are no different than any other gun of the same type. Does that make it clear enough humble.
HiTech
Yup...
BTW head and shoulders great for dandruff....
Thanks for your reply on other thread.
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Originally posted by EN4CER
If your going to attack a formation of bombers in that situation (Basically you are rolling the dice :eek: ), in my opinion, attack with a lot of E from their 2 o'clock or 10 o'clock and AIM FOR THE COCKPIT :D
hehe...I'm not whinning...I'm complaining
Didn't know there was a distinct difference. Did they offer you any Cheese with your Whine? :D Just Teasing.
Took this from other thread on a couple of clips I put up on training forum...
not sure if its on clip but while I'm pissing and moaning I get lit up...just a reminder that the game doesnt stop cause you get a bad break
To me a whine is just that @#$%# about "normal" gameplay. A "complaint" is an objection to a fundemental aspect of the game. I'll use Karnaks (and my) various "complaints" about the K1-84. Top speed is a whine....I think HT & Pyro went out of there way to document and justify how they got to that aspect of the planes performance. Now the rollrate is more of a complaint...the plane simply doesnt handle as well as various accounts would lead you to believe it should. To me there is a difference....
Now my "complaint" is ultra low level bombing of tactical targets by hvy bombers. HT certainly cleared up 1element specific to gunnery modeling which might help survivability (mine) in future. I still feel that bombing below ~800 ft or so in a hvy buff is unrealistic and impedes "fair" gameplay...that simple.
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HT,
You get so many "perception" based complaints on gunnery ... "these guns don't kill" ... "those planes don't die" ... and so on.
Maybe this in the game already and I haven't found it, but if we could pick the plane type of drone when offline then it'd be easier for players to go offline and see that things kill and die as they should - without the unknowns of net lag, slow connects, and so on getting in the way.
Likewise if there were GV's of each type parked out on a "firing range" that we could strafe or fire on.
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Actually they did. Ploesti. Didn't work out real well though.
Originally posted by humble
Just died again to a buff on "final" so low over the water you couldnt even see the icon. I can tell you right now that when (not if) I quit this game for last time (I promise:)) this will be why.
Heres a dweeb (all low level buffers are spineless dweebs period) on auto with a perfect gun platform at 15 ft who can light up all comers with his "turbo" powered 50 cals (still x10 "power" if I recall). No buff formation would fly at this level. I think that "drones should be reconfigured so that they "detach" and land immediatly once you go below 2500 ft (above ground) also multiplier should be disabled below that level as well....
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Originally posted by humble
Are you sure they are false?
And the other shoe sounds like this when dropped:
Doug "Pyro" Balmos informed us some time back:
Version 2.00 Patch 8
Patch 8 Changes
======================
Radar circles now turn red if the radar is destroyed.
Planes can now operate WEP without RPM having to be maxed.
Fixed a bug that was causing planes not to collide with other planes correctly.
Fixed a bug that was causing a corrupted display in the hangar list.
Bomber and bomber formation guns now converge at 500 yards instead of 1000.
Base icons should now flash or not flash correctly when you first enter the arena.
Fixed a bug that was causing base radar to still function when destroyed.
Added a new country balancer that disables available planes based on country number imbalances and plane ENY values.
NOTE: Values for this system may change as the
system is optimized.
You now get a message box on login when your account is out of balance.
Adjusted combat trim settings on the P-51D and P-51B.
Fixed a bug that caused the Ju 88 to lose power at 30k.
Made changes to the armor penetration model. Small caliber weapons (20mm and below) have less penetration. Fixed a problem with HE munitions that was giving them too much armor penetration from proximity hits.
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At lunch I checked the arena settings avaible to CMs and offline to everyone.
There is GroundGun Lethality (affects AA) and PlaneLethality. So you can change the lethality of the weapons for planes. However, this changes the lethality for all planes both fighter and bomber.
So if you change it to say a lethality of 0.5 that means the guns on every plane and every bomber of all types is reduced.
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No "other shoe" involved...
I posted a seperate thread just to make sure I did get the facts right and appreciate HT taking a moment to put his dandruff back down and clarify things for me. Personally I'm looking forward to seeing those NOE buff runs in one of the scenarios...
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Originally posted by Muddie
Actually they did. Ploesti. Didn't work out real well though.
Actually I think Ploesti wasn't unsuccessful from a damage inflicted point of view but casualties were higher than expected. But your comparing a strategic target (pretty easy to carpet bomb a refinery) vs hitting a specific structure like a fighter hanger. 54 out of the 177 planes were lost but damage was very heavy...
This is part of the operational order...
ATITUDES: BENGASI to TOCRA to 38º20' N 20º08' E begin climb so as to cross CORFU at 10,000 feet until reaching PIROT. At PIROT begin descent so as to cross DANUBE at 3,000-5,000 feet. Remain at 3,000 to 5,000 feet until reaching PITESTI. From PITESTI to IPs maintain minimum altitude above terrain. From IP to target reduce altitudes to bombing level.
Curious what the bombing level was...not clearly stated in "order 58".
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We are talking about a Ploesti scenario. Basically you have multiple attacks on Ploesti. Couple high alt bombing, a P38 JABO raid, and a low level B24 raid.
So in discussion stages right now among CMs.
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I don't know what their drop alt was. It was pretty low though. I've seen references to some of the buffs going trhough the field at 50 ft and others that mention "climbing to drop altitude". I have an acquaintance that flew B-24s and hit Ploesti. I don't recall if he was on the low run or not. I'll see if I can contact him and get an answer (if he's still with us, that is).
He's quite a guy. Up until about 5 years ago, he was playing a credible game of doubles tennis. Very poor form to take an overhand at him though (just don't let him know that).
Originally posted by humble
Actually I think Ploesti wasn't unsuccessful from a damage inflicted point of view but casualties were higher than expected. But your comparing a strategic target (pretty easy to carpet bomb a refinery) vs hitting a specific structure like a fighter hanger. 54 out of the 177 planes were lost but damage was very heavy...
This is part of the operational order...
ATITUDES: BENGASI to TOCRA to 38º20' N 20º08' E begin climb so as to cross CORFU at 10,000 feet until reaching PIROT. At PIROT begin descent so as to cross DANUBE at 3,000-5,000 feet. Remain at 3,000 to 5,000 feet until reaching PITESTI. From PITESTI to IPs maintain minimum altitude above terrain. From IP to target reduce altitudes to bombing level.
Curious what the bombing level was...not clearly stated in "order 58".
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ghostdancer....
Any solid data on B-24 drop height?
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What kind of approach were you making on the buff formation there humble? Pretty much every bomber set except the ki's has a very hard time tracking cons attacking from the high (very high) 6. If you tried to come in too low you're presenting an almost stationary target with your engine and other essential parts pointing right at the guy. If you can't line up for a cockpit shot try to take your shot while > 45 degrees nose down and aim for the base of the wings. This method should aleviate some of your frustration.
-pellik
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I was climbing out from one of the "seaside" bases and noticed the B-24s coming in over the water...had to dive in and take "best angle"...was coming in pointed ahead of nose from about planes 9 oclock...literally no icon was visable during initial part of attack (think "top" part was at end)...I probably could of flown on thru with minimum damage but wouldnt have effected drop...chopped and "Skidded" plane to 45 degree facing at ~300 or so from lead buff...got pings in but 1st hit got oil,pilot and wingtip...no issue that it was a kamikazee run on my part. Simply tired of this type of suicide buff runs. Obviously with him running below "icon range" he was able to get in close undetected....hopefully we'll see more "real" bombing and nor more of this...but the combination of speed and bomb load also make this the "uber" suicide buff also...
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Originally posted by humble
No "other shoe" involved...
I posted a seperate thread just to make sure I did get the facts right and appreciate HT taking a moment to put his dandruff back down and clarify things for me. Personally I'm looking forward to seeing those NOE buff runs in one of the scenarios...
There was thread a year or two ago (Pyro was part of it ... maybe hitech) which explained the *apparent* advantage of buff guns. It went something like this ... If the buff and its attacker are flying the same speed, then all of the buff rounds have a speed of x; however, if the attacker is closing on the buff at say y, the round will have the apparent velocity of x+y. Kinetic energy depends on the square of the velocity ...
Hitech recently indicated there is no convergence setting for the buff guns (ah2 bug forum.) I guess each 50cal is bore sighted.
curly
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Curly...
When I say "convergence" I'm talking about the concept of all guns being aimed at the same point...if I'm sitting in buff tail aiming at inbound fighter I thought all my guns in formation are slaved to my aim and that all with LOS fire at target when I do....
Pyro said that convergance is 500....does that mean that all other guns only hit at that range??
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Originally posted by humble
Pyro said that convergance is 500....does that mean that all other guns only hit at that range??
Yes. At longer and shorter ranges the other other guns get progressively further from the target.
Use the .target command offline to see how much it changes.
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humble the drop height is for all bombs regardles of plane type or fighter or bomber designation.
Will have to go back through some things to find it. But basically the bomb must travel a certain distance before it arms.
So it depends on alt and speed. If you are at 100 ft and moving 100 mph the bomb travels x many feet before hitting the ground. At 100 ft and 230 mph the bomb travels x many feet before hitting the ground.
I just have to dig up how many feet travel it takes to arm a bomb.
But rough guess is a bomber at 50 ft is too close to the ground to allow the bombs to arm.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Yes. At longer and shorter ranges the other other guns get progressively further from the target.
Use the .target command offline to see how much it changes.
Thanks...will check that out tonight after TOD...
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I think they have to TRAVEL 500 feet. This can happen if a plane is very low, but also very fast. E.g., if a plane were traveling at 500 feet per second, the plane would only have to be at an alt of 17 feet. (I know that that's not a realistic speed, but it illustrates the point.)
eskimo
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I think your right about the 500 ft of travel distance. Just have to find a reference to it.
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Originally posted by humble
Thanks...will check that out tonight after TOD...
Did this immediately after AHII came out with the changes of ballistics and icons, it was making my squad crazy. You can see the changes between AH and AHII here B17 Gun Test (http://www.skbg.org/AH2Gunning-1.htm)
My complaint at the time was the guns from the formation converged at 1000 yards and as a fighter came in, they could get inside your effective range rather easily and you would basically shoot around them. HT has since moved that convergence to 500 yards and it made a very nice change to lethality when someone is dumb enough to fly up your six :rofl
Haven't updated with the pages with the new convergence but I have tested with the new setting and the bullets definitely hit hard at 400-600 and are spreading as you move away from those distances.
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Flossy found the reference for me in regards to how far a bomb has to travel to arm:
Release note 1.08 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14771)
Added fuzes to all bombs. A bomb will not arm unless it’s traveled 1000 feet. This translates to about a 100 foot drop at 250 miles per hour. The faster you travel, the less altitude is required and vice versa.
So at 50 ft the bombers would have to be travelling at roughly 500 mph to have their bombs arm.
It does seem possible for one of the faster moving bombers to bomb from 100 ft though (anything that can reach 250 mph). Or go up to 200 ft (where skip bombing was done by B17s in New Guinea area) and they can definitely bomb.
On side a note would still like to see parafrag bombs.
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:D
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Originally posted by Bunyip
:D
Sigh....
Why dont you read up on it yourself so you know the differences...BTW all that was was skip bombing with a specially designed bomb....
ghostdancer....
Thanks...so basically we have a drop height of ~75+ feet or some type of "pop up" bombing if your truely NOE....but basically they can level bomb from 100ft for certain at speed. So a B-24 flight with 20x1000 has 60 bombs to spray down the "flight line" and needs 10% accuracy to take out all three FH's....or am I wrong here with the math?
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and MA bombers are regular carpet salvoes with specialy designed ACM :D
Humble just be more careful with the way you show yourself in the bombers' gunsights, you'll see it's not that hard to scalp em.
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i should'nt even touch this one...
ohh well.
buffs! wether thier low or high should always be approached slowly, dont just always barrel into them and hope they arent looking!
i love killing buff's but i always try to probe first, unless of course the buffs already got a couple fighters on him.:D
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Originally posted by humble
Sigh....
So a B-24 flight with 20x1000 has 60 bombs to spray down the "flight line" and needs 10% accuracy to take out all three FH's....or am I wrong here with the math?
it's either 60 One Hundred pound bombs OR 24 One Thousand pound bombs, so one way or another yes, you are wrong ;)
Point is you are never going to stop the NOE buffs... unless you fly with a 30mm.
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This buff situation has a problem..... It is a combination of the buff being to soft and the guns being to powerful......
I mean look at it... we all know the American buffs came home shredded and half thier crews getting hosed out of the back of the planes.. What was left of them... Sure they shot down a bunch of German fighters ... Hell they didn't all die on one frickin pass.... These things took one heck of a pounding before they went down... We despiritly need to bring this gun thing back to some reallitiy.....
I know I spell like HT....
Gatr
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Originally posted by Alpo
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Point is you are never going to stop the NOE buffs... unless you fly with a 30mm.
It's not NOE buff's per se ... it's the NOE buff formations that is really porking gameplay. It's an exploit of a feature put in to foster and support long range strategic bombing. If the NOE's were coming in as singles no one would be saying a word. But if they were coming in as singles they wouldn't be coming in at all.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
... it's the NOE buff formations that is really porking gameplay.
And the solution is?... If you say perk formations :lol
I have said any NOE should be exposed to a large amount of ground fire which should alert anyone in the area that something is coming. Put some of the manable 5" guns you find on ships outside of the base perimeter along with some AI puffy ack.
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Originally posted by Alpo
And the solution is?... If you say perk formations :lol
I have said any NOE should be exposed to a large amount of ground fire which should alert anyone in the area that something is coming. Put some of the manable 5" guns you find on ships outside of the base perimeter along with some AI puffy ack.
With the morons already porking troops and radar, what makes you think serious AAA would survive any better?
Perking formations makes sense to me - at lest from forward bases.