Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: oboe on November 05, 2004, 06:43:10 PM
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Wondering what you are thinking about the latest news? Sorry about the cut and paste but I wanted to relay the highlights of the story:
(from the Mpls Star/Tribune)
Northwest Airlines' board of directors has awarded $3.7 million in restricted stock to its top five executives...
The stock awards, disclosed in a Wednesday filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, come as Northwest pilots finish voting on a two-year contract that reduces their pay by 15 percent and saves the company $265 million a year...
Implementation of the pilots' new contract also would trigger $35 million in annual cuts for salaried employees...
But Northwest executives who were awarded the restricted stock recently received salary increases to reflect their new responsibilities. Northwest declined to release the amounts of raises for top executives.
Northwest, which has lost more than $2 billion on its operations since early 2001, is attempting to cut its labor costs by $950 million a year.
What about the rest of you guys? What do you think about NWA's management?
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thought that band broke up, and one of them died.
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NWA is teh suck.
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I is one of them NWA types.
Airline pilots are extremely overpaid at all the carriers, and the pension they get is so grossly inflated in the extreme as to be embarrassing. Dealing with them as often as I have. I never cease to be amazed at the number of them that are so freaking arrogant and basically define the term "prima donna". Not to say they are all like that, but too many.
Senior NWA management has positioned the airline pretty well in relation to the other major carriers, but the industry is in a difficult place right now. Too many factors involved in our industry to go into, but I would say we have at least an equal chance of survival long term as any airline today.
That is senior management anyway. I know and have talked to many employees at other airlines and they are all pretty much the same except for the livery. Without the paint job, you couldn't tell most of them apart.
dago
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I guess the point I'm trying to make is that senior management wrings salary concessions out of the pilots and promises them they will take a pay cut right alongside them, then right before the pay cut is voted in they give themselves fat raises and big stock awards.
I thought everyone at a company is supposed to be on the same team. It looks to me like the pilots just got a nice sucker punch in the jaw.
And this at an airline that has lost $2 billion. How the hell can you justify raises when the company's performance is that bad?
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You are a little short on the facts.
The stock options are part of their compensation package. The pilot group was informed prior to voting on the pay concessions about the upcoming stock issue, it wasn't a surprise or sucker punch.
The senior execs did not get a pay raise, just the opposite, they are taking a 15% pay cut with the pilots. All of management will be taking that pay cut, they have been aware of that for a while, but they were not to get the pay cut until the first unionized labor group agreed to a cut. That is what has just happened, and management will share in the pay cut.
I think if you compare the total compensation of the senior executives at NWA versus other comparable airlines, and especially other companies outside aviation, you will see that thier pay is no higher, and in fact lower than most others.
Richard Anderson ex-CEO left recently to go to another company where the CEO pay is 10X that of NWA.
One thing I do feel though is that the pay for CEOs in this country is out of control, and the huge bonuses many are recieving while losing record amounts of money is moral indefensible, and should be criminal.
dago
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southwest and jetblue will own you and all the other 1950's run airlines.
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southwest and jetblue
They are changing the industry, but you might want to look at their recent financials.
JetBlues bill is coming due, and soon.
Southwest has done well, but they are just barely beyond the "regional" carrier size at this point.
dago
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Recent Financials?
The air carrier Wednesday reported a net loss of $38 million, or 54 cents a share, compared with a year-earlier profit of $47 million, or 49 cents a share.
Revenue rose 13% to $3.05 billion from $2.69 billion a year earlier.
Southwest
Operating Results
Total operating revenues for third quarter 2004 increased 7.8 percent to $1.67 billion, compared to $1.55 billion for third quarter 2003. Operating income was $191 million, compared to $185 million in third quarter 2003.
Top 10 Airlines, ranked by January to July 2004 Domestic Enplanements
1 Southwest Airlines 47,466,094
2 Delta Airlines 46,883,939
3 American Airlines 42,928,542
4 United Airlines 34,963,033
5 Northwest Airlines 26,719,372
6 US Airways 22,183,855
7 Continental Airlines 18,493,610
8 America West Airlines 11,233,207
9 Alaska Airlines 8,176,271
10 American Eagle Airlines 8,072,099
The dinosaurs will eventually die out. It's real simple; there's Airline Management that understands the business and there's Airline Management that think the key to success is the type of china used in the First Class meal service.
The ones making money.... don't even have a First Class section. Go figure.
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I appreciate you straightening out the facts. But the story in the Star Trib said the execs were given unspecified raises BEFORE the 15% pay cut is to take affect. If that's true they may not get a pay cut at all.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5069730.html (http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5069730.html)
In fact, even after his 15% cut, Steenland will make $73,500 more this year than last year (in salary alone - not including bonuses or stock options).
http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5071504.html (http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5071504.html)
The concern you voice over out of control executive pay is really right on target IMO, and you put it better than I could. I agree the problem is widespread, but in the case of an airline that has lost $2 billion (and taken government handouts after 9/11) it seems especially egregious. Why there is not more moral outrage from shareholders and employees everywhere is a mystery to me.
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Oh yeah... about CEO pay. Here's what my airline paid the guy who TOTALLY DESTROYED it to leave.
Thanks to the folks at the Wall Street Journal--who took a look at the latest Delta proxy--and let us get the goods on just how lucrative being an airline CEO can be. Even after you are asked to leave because you did such a poor job.
Case in point. Mr. Ronald Allen, former President, Chairman and CEO of Delta Air Lines.
According to the Delta document, Allen was paid a $4.5 million lump sum severance payment. However, this, dear readers, is just the beginning.
Delta also disclosed that it will provide supplemental pension benefits to Allen with a total retirement benefit of $765,000 a year. In addition, Delta agreed to provide Allen with retiree life and medical benefits, flight privileges, office space, secretarial services, election as a "lifetime advisory director" of Delta, an annual consulting fee of $500,000 for 7 years, subject to an extension of another 8, and oh, yes, Delta is also footing the bill to pay for Ron's attorney in connection with the preparation of the retirement agreement.
The joke in the ready room was "Wow... it sure cost a bunch to get rid of Allen.... but it was worth every penny".
As to airline pilot pay.... have you ever gotten the training and experience required, applied to the majors, competed with 30,000 other guys and got hired, done the job and lived the life for a few years? If so, I'll listen to you. Otherwise, I'll just tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Originally posted by Toad
As to airline pilot pay.... have you ever gotten the training and experience required, applied to the majors, competed with 30,000 other guys and got hired...
(head scratch...) shouldn't the law of supply and demand keep the pay to be low if there are 30,000 others willing to do the job?
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Good God thanks Toad I have a bruise in the middle of my forehead where it it the desk after reading about Allen. Its an all-too-familiar occurrence, and that is an understatement.
I thought boards of directors were supposed to oversee the executive management, looking out for shareholder value. I think the pubic corporation business model is seriously malfunctioning - and guess whose gonna get hurt -- the little guy, the employee, the small shareholder. Certainly not big shots like Allen. It should be criminal, but who to convince to make it so?
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Unions are ruining America. The idea, at first, was great, and needed. Unions now are bloated and cost the American people more than they give.
A medium is needed to still support the worker without screwing the employer and the US's ability to compete on the global market.
Free market, by definition, denies the ability of employees to dictate above market wages for their work. Unions force this by laws that were needed at one point, but are archaic now.
Something needs to be done to level out the cost of labor without screwing the worker that has been getting union pay for years. I got no ideas here, but the global market is just starting to kick us in our collective prettythanges. It's not going to get any better.
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Airline tickets are far too expensive. Costs 400 bucks to fly from Kentucky to Florida on Delta. Costs 120 to fly on Southwest.
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Originally posted by Toad
As to airline pilot pay.... have you ever gotten the training and experience required, applied to the majors, competed with 30,000 other guys and got hired, done the job and lived the life for a few years? If so, I'll listen to you. Otherwise, I'll just tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Matter of fact, yes, I have licenses and ratings in my pocket. Also an A&P.
Lets see, about 250 hrs logged time will get you comm, mel, inst. Well less than half of that is training time. So, lets be generous and say, 125 hours documented training time to get in the right seat. After that, you can be paid to fly. During that paid time, you are now making money. Get to 1500hrs being paid to do what you enjoy, you take the ATP ride. Now you can be captain, maybe you are up to, 150 hrs training you have paid for, plus the additional training your company will have paid you to attend on thier operation and aircraft, Paid to attend.
Oh, very terrible so far. Give me a break.
Gee, almost equal to the many years Doctors go to school and serve internship, right Toad? Hardly.
Went to college? So what, it's not a requirement, just a preference some airlines have, and here is a shocker, not all airline pilots have degrees.
So, FAA requires at most 150 hrs documented training (acutally much lower number is closer to the truth), with another 100 hrs logged time to get paid to fly.
To get an A&P requires nearly 1700 hrs documented training. Why Toad, that is a lot more than a pilot, so I guess the A&P should make 10x more than the pilot? His work is performed on the same equipment, he has the responsiblity for the same lives resting on the quality of professionalism of his work. Surely you must agree. And most A&Ps will have worked at low paying jobs for tiny crappy outfits before they get hired by a major airline, so same route gaining experience.
But hey, it is so tough being an airline pilot. Lets review the challenge:
1) Show up for work
2) Find your flight plan laid out for you by dispatch
3) Your fuel load already determined by dispatch
4) Your weight and balance will be done for you by load control
5) Your logbooks reviewed and ready for you by maintenance
6) Your walkaround is done by the F/O
7) The passengers handled by the gate agents and the F/As, you sit in your seat and informed when they are ready.
8) Your F/O will work the radios for you
9) You taxi out, takeoff, and by 1000ft, you are on autopilot
10) The F/A serves you food and coffee
11) A/P flys the airplane until 1000ft before landing.
12) You land, taxi in, everyone gets off, and you rest from such a difficult job
13) Repeat a few more times this day, and wait for the the widebody slot that means you only have one takeoff and land once a day, for one week a month
Spend the rest of the month at home telling your family you are a God, and worrying over your expanding stock portfolio.
A few nods to the downsides, must keep healthy to maintain a medical, must pass competency checkrides on a regular basis, must stay in a hotel away from the family on a regular basis.
These aren't really all that horrible when you consider the downsides other people face in their line of employment.
And as pointed out in your post, an airline pilot isn't exactly a needle in a hay stack, advertise for pilots and you can form a line 6 miles long with applicants with the tickets in the pocket.
So, please stay off the high horse Toad, it aint that rough.
dago
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Originally posted by Lazerus
Unions are ruining America. The idea, at first, was great, and needed. Unions now are bloated and cost the American people more than they give...
Time to update your knowledge Lazerus. Union membership has been declining steadily since the 1950s, and in 2003 less than 13% of all wage and salary workers were members of unions: http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2004/jan/wk3/art03.htm (http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2004/jan/wk3/art03.htm)
I think labor unions were one of the driving forces behind the creation of the middle class in this country. (And nope, I'm not a union member and never have been). But I recognize their importance as a counterbalance to the exploitation of labor in the early part of the last century. In some cases, I think they were TOO successful and became a detriment to the industry in which they were so powerful (e.g. airlines and auto mfg). But I don't think that's the case in the majority. The positive benefits of unions are a well-paid, well-trained quality workforce. I would much rather work in a building built by union workers than one built by untrained, poorly paid construction workers hired off the street, wouldn't you?
Globalization and the offshore outsourcing it encourages is one of the answers you seek to driving wages, salaries and benefits downward for workers. But I'd be careful what you wish for. In my experience the cost savings realized by offshoring is simply paid out to senior executives as bonuses rather than passed on to the customer.
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1811_3982649)
I think your desire for a medium that reaches a balance between labor cost and benefits and keeps the US competitive shows reason and patriotism on your part. But I fear Free Market + workforce globalization = end of the American middle class. Like you, I don't have any ideas, though I approved of Kerry's plan to at least stop giving tax breaks to corporations that offshore US jobs. There is just no way to compete with a foreign worker who will work for 10% or less of your salary, and there is no way to stop the frothing at the mouth this produces in greedy corporate executives. I fear we are headed for the kind of society depicted in the first "ROBOCOP" movie.
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Lovely scenario, Dago, except that's not how it works and, if you really are familiar with the business, you know it.
So, FAA requires at most 150 hrs documented training (acutally much lower number is closer to the truth), with another 100 hrs logged time to get paid to fly
I've always said it's easiest to let people show their lack of.... understanding... with their own keyboards. As you did with that statement.
Currently, my son has a high school buddy that's gone the "civilian route". He got an aviation degree at an aviation college with his Commercial, Instrument, MEL and Instructor ratings in all of those. He spent a huge amount of money doing that. Since that time, he's worked as an Instructor to build time, making a pittance. To build his multi time, he actually had to pay an outfit that flies cancelled checks around at midnight to the Fed Reserve to let him fly right seat. Now he's flying left seat for them and making about $1200 a month.
You idea of getting "paid to fly" with a few hundred hours under your belt is not realistic and leads me, once again, to believe you don't have any idea what you are talking about. In fact, you "scenario" as to how one gets to the ATP level shows how little you know about the current situation and what went before. Perhaps a few guys like Cit or Frenchy will drop by here and clue you as well.
Had a good friend go to work for a Commuter; this guy flew fighters in the AF but didn't get enough time for the magic ATP. He paid $18,000 for the right seat training in their Beech 1900. They hired him, of course, he's an excellent stick and person. His pay the first year? $16,000. Second year? $18,000. Again, you have no knowledge.
When I applied, if you didn't have 2500 hours +, you weren't even in the game. (Holden, that's where the supply/demand curve skews; the major airlines, the ones that (used to) actually pay well have very high requirements. They may have 30K applicants, but there are many like Dago that think a few hundred hours qualify them for the job.) Beyond that, at the time I got hired, 90% + of successful applicants were military pilots. Being a military pilot meant you had about 6 years of full time flying experience in turbojet aircraft.
Your litany of what the job requires also shows you haven't done it. In fact, it's typical of a mechanics view of pilots. Let me guess... you are IAM for NW?
Much of the work is routine. Much of it is not; ever hand-flown 727 through a CatII in a blinding snowstorm into SLC and landed on a runway with "poor" braking action? No, I bet you haven't. Ever gone into mile-high Denver on a hot summer day and dealt with the windshear they are famous for? No, I bet you haven't.
Lastly, everyone likes to focus on that "high pay" those pilots get. The numbers posted are almost always produced by using the most senior pilots flying the largest equipment. When I hired on at DAL in 1980, I got $900/month for the first year. It took me four years to reach the annual pay that I had given up as a Captain in the Air Force.
So, again, if you ever really delve into the subject and learn someting about it....rather than just relying on the superficial knowledge the mass media puts out, let me know. Until then, best for you to stay out of the stable; you apparently can't tell the horses from the barn cats.
I think there's a few guys around the board pursuing a professional pilot career. Maybe they'll stop by and you can tell them how easy and how well paid it is.
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Toad, do you guys all get that speil off an ALPA website?
No, I am not in the IAM. Nice try at trying to belittle me to show you are better. Typical pilot.
Yes, I have spent time in a cockpit jumpseat and have observed many flight ops, narrow and wide body, domestic and international flights. I have a clue what is required of the pilot.
I also worked in our Systems Operations Control.
Yes, I know plenty of friends who choose to fly for a living, and many ended up in the left seat of an airline. I know of their challenges in getting there. Big freaking deal, stop feeling sorry for yourself.
Do you think other jobs don't have challenges??? Do you think most career people dont pay a lot of dues to get where they want to be????
Grab a slice of reality pie and take a view of the real world, everyone works hard and pays dues, working long hours for not enough money to become a success. They don't necessarily run their companies into near bankruptcy doing it.
Pilots are overpaid, period. The route to that seat isn't all that much harder than most other careers.
It is a good think I am not running an airline, or the pilots would find themselves flying for a lot less, and excercising a lot less control.
dago
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Aviation is ripe for explotation.
Young hungry pilots will fly for practically free. The big airlines all have unions and senority that effectively shuts out most new pilots from ever hopeing to get a job that pays well with them. In times of downsizing they are not hireing.
So new carriers will arise that do not have unions. They may start as charter or freight only but eventually they will start to fly passengers and because their costs are lower they will make money when big airlines can't.
In a deregulated environment that is the natural process. Only regulations and laws can stop it from occuring.
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Dago, I'll be glad to discuss this further for a bit longer. I do have a pressing engagement however.
First though... jump seat rider, eh? Jump seat access is rather limited by FAA rules.
Why don't you tell us all just what position you hold at NWA?
Secondly, a simple question. Doing this job you have at NWA, do you consider yourself overpaid?
Thanks in advance.
Habu, nice theory but have you checked Southwest's pay rates? Their annual salary is very competitive (in fact it probably exceeds the majors now) with the majors and they've been profitable for 31 of their 32 years.
LIke everything else, people look for a scapegoat. Blaming pilot pay is the "easy out" and excuses folks from looking at the true systemic problems the majors created for themselves.
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Toad, I don't jumpseat anymore.
As you know, it's an uncomfortable seat. I prefer first (business) class.
But, I worked for a time out of our flight ops dept, and held a jumpseat authorization card signed by VP Flight Ops. That was pre-9/11. I have changed positions since. I used to grab the jumpseat to avoid bumping a pax. Now, if it comes to that, I just wait for another flight.
Jumpseating now requires a high up authorization, and isn't worth the trouble to get it. On business I can ride positive space coach, and prefer that for domestic rides. International, I just book space avail business class, and book carefully.
I don't care to get into anymore of this pissing match to be honest. My opinion won't change, I think pilots are overpaid. Your opinion won't change, you have tasted the greed and decided you are entitled.
So, I will let it go at that.
Hope your health issues are resolved and you get back on your feet soon.
dago
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So, what you are really saying it that you don't want to tell us what you did for Flight Ops and you don't want to tell us what you do now.
Nor do you want to offer an opinion on whether or not you are overpaid in your job.
I'm not suprised.
Greed? Hardly. You need to look at Management if you want to see raw, unadulterated greed.
Entitled? Earned.
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So, what you are really saying it that you don't want to tell us what you did for Flight Ops and you don't want to tell us what you do now.
To be honest, I prefer to maintain a reasonable amount of anonimity on these boards. I wouldn't mind telling you in an email, but I choose not to post a whole lot of personal info online.
Do I think I am or have been overpaid? No, but then I am not making a pilots salary, if I was, I would think so.
I agree about upper Management as I have already stated about CEOs in this country.
dago
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Guess im another one of those "overpaid airline pilots" Seeing as im now in my 5th year with an airline and still haven't made in all 5 yrs combined what it cost to get my ratings. I built my time the civilian route (flight instructor). And if you think making 12-15k a year for 3 yrs working approximately 360 days out of the yrs is enjoyable, feel free to become a flight instructor any time.
As for pay rates, do you realize a Southwest pilot has a higher pay rate than an American 737 pilot with same senoirity. But then again AA is one of those "dinosaurs" that isn't bleeding to death quite so fast anymore.
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Originally posted by talliven
Guess im another one of those "overpaid airline pilots" Seeing as im now in my 5th year with an airline and still haven't made in all 5 yrs combined what it cost to get my ratings. I built my time the civilian route (flight instructor). And if you think making 12-15k a year for 3 yrs working approximately 360 days out of the yrs is enjoyable, feel free to become a flight instructor any time.
As for pay rates, do you realize a Southwest pilot has a higher pay rate than an American 737 pilot with same senoirity. But then again AA is one of those "dinosaurs" that isn't bleeding to death quite so fast anymore.
I dont count commuter pilots, or the regionals either when you get down to it.
When did anyone tell you that you will return your investment in your career quickly? If someone told you that, they were misleading you, and you were not to bright to believe it.
So, if it is bad, why are you still at it? Because you hope to get to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and it is a very good job when you compare it to what others do for a living.
How about comparing wages and work rules for JetBlue pilots against the majors?
You might find it differant, and guess what? They are more profitable. Hmmm, lets see if we can find a possibility that might help explain that.
Could it be that they might be profitable because their pilots aren't bleeding them dry??? Hmmmmmmmmmm
dago
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yikes dago, kinda loose on how it really works as a pilot.
Starting eagle pay, 1600 a month. Starting cfi pay where I fly is 15 bucks a FLIGHT hour. The big bucks only come into long term captain slots. If anything the vast majority of pilots are underpaid. Considering the responsibilty they carry with each flight. How many lives does a 747 captian have in his hands? Do you want a pissed off pilot making 20k a year doing that?
Toad can tell you, Airline guys spend a ton of time away from home and long days, most of it unpaid.
EDIT: Most of us do it with no visions of a huge paycheck, I do it because I love to fly. I worked office space type jobs and hated it, made prolly 4 times what I could as a cfi.
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I'm going to chime in here since I'm feeling Dago has some burr up his rear and I'd like to shove it a little further up there.
First off, 21 years old...Commercial Pilot, Single & Multiengine Land, Instrument Airplane. I have around 550TT, 110 Multi, 120 Instrument. I fly Traffic reports, jump planes and any ferry flight I can get my hands on. All for pay. I refuse to fly for free so a business can get off the hook by giving me 'experience.' The best advice I've recieved came from Director of Ops at my Insurance company's flight department (Where I want to end up flying CL-604s and HS-125s) was don't be a potato to the industry. Pilots are professional, like it or not. Don't let anyone short change your hard work and effort by letting them think they can use it for their advantage in saving a dime.
Second, I paid for around 250 of the 350 hrs I had when I got my commercial ticket. Dago thinking that an automatic 250 hrs = commercial ticket is off. I went the part 61 route. I earned my private ticket while working as an Insurance adjuster and weekends at the airport working line service. I use rental airplanes to get around from A to B, a Mooney M20J is my preferred airplane.
I figured that I spent over $30,000 ($15,000 student loan, $15,000 out of pocket) on all my ratings to this point. I could be making piles of money for my age settling auto claims but who has a passion for that? Looking at how much I am getting paid now to fly...I won't be 'in the black' anytime soon. I'm working now at landing my first 'real' flying job (Traffic Reports and Parachute Drops are gigs, not jobs) and it isn't easy. I have my aspirations in the corporate aviation world, ideally the insurance company (Which has 3 jets, 10 pilots and is a model for any flight department) and not the airlines. I have a ways to go, am short on multi and turbine time and have no idea how to get it.
Dago, next time you want to badmouth any professional pilots, they all worked very hard to get where they are. They're skilled labor, and are responsible for millions of people every day being safely transported in a machine that has thousands of moving parts, lots of flammable fuel and weighs considerably more than the air it displaces. All your arguments stink of envy toward Toad. You list nothing but the good things and mention nothing of the bad. A furlough can come at any time, all the nights away from home, shooting a Cat II or III approach in weather rudolph can't see his nose in and lets not forget all the years of low pay and long hours they endured to get there. Sounds like you took the easy way out flying a desk, when you really want to be in the left seat.
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Originally posted by Dnil
yikes dago, kinda loose on how it really works as a pilot.
Starting eagle pay, 1600 a month. Starting cfi pay where I fly is 15 bucks a FLIGHT hour. The big bucks only come into long term captain slots. If anything the vast majority of pilots are underpaid. Considering the responsibilty they carry with each flight. How many lives does a 747 captian have in his hands? Do you want a pissed off pilot making 20k a year doing that?
Toad can tell you, Airline guys spend a ton of time away from home and long days, most of it unpaid.
EDIT: Most of us do it with no visions of a huge paycheck, I do it because I love to fly. I worked office space type jobs and hated it, made prolly 4 times what I could as a cfi.
I agree with most of what you say dnil, but my objection is with the pilots at a major. Commuter pilots and most of the rest dont get rich, far from it.
Tell me, how many more lives does the pilot have in his hands then the mechanic who installed the engine(s), or signed the maintenance release? Mechanics errors have killed people just as have pilot errors, yet the mechanics arent paid the same. Why is that? The A&P is harder to get, and they normally can expect to work low paying jobs for years to try and get into an airline, only to live with the ever present threat of layoff or airline failure.
But, you do realize that a 3 yr F/O at a major is in, feel free to correct me if you can prove me wrong, is making about 100g a year.
Time away from home? True, but next time in a hotel, look around at the other guests. They are almost all there for work too. Traveling and staying in hotels isn't unique to the pilot world. So, would you justify those huge salaries to everyone who travels as part of their employment? BTW, pilots know this will be required before they take their first flight lesson.
dago
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Golfer, you dont have the whiskers or cash to buy a clue yet, so dont bother trying to lecture me.
I have been in avaition full time for about 28 years. Worked for a major now nearly 20 years. I know more professional pilots as friends then you have probably met. On Saturdays I have lunch with a bunch of them, have done that for quite a while. Even they agree the pay/pension is getting riduculous, and they are 747 Capt types, and more than one airline is involved in that lunch crowd.
I have traveled the world literally, met the Chief Pilots, Training Dept Pilots, and Presidents of many airlines as part of my job. I know something about what I speak.
Since your comprehension is lacking, I will clarify for you. I think Capts at majors make too much money. I never said all pilots do, if I gave that impression, my mistake.
But, I do not agree, and never will, that a Capt who flies a widebody internationally needs to make 250-300 G a year to fly one week a month. I believe UAL pilots were making almost if not 400 grand a year doing that.
That is too much, whether your young fuzzy butt agrees or not.
If I ran an airline, I would pay Sr Capts 150g for widebody intl, Sr Capts domestic maybe 100g. That would be it. And that would be a good living.
dago
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My brother in law is a FO with delta, and he doesnt make 100g a year. Toad could probably give you the exact figure. You have to figure in what equipment they are on to. 737, md80 guys prolly arent making anything near what a 747 guy makes.
Piloting is a demanding profession. I dont mean the VFR junk mom and pop do on the weekend. I mean the professional part. Its no different then engineering or being a lawyer. Just in the long run it takes a lot longer to make the bucks they do right off the bet.
As an A&P you are probably making more then the majority of the pilots at your company.
I am leaning toward what golfer is getting at. There is something driving your dislike of pilots.
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http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/
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Originally posted by Dnil
As an A&P you are probably making more then the majority of the pilots at your company.
I am leaning toward what golfer is getting at. There is something driving your dislike of pilots.
Yes, I have an A&P, but dont work as a Tech, havent for quite a while.
I dont dislike pilots, nor do I dislike CEOs, but I just think that in many cases, the pay has gotten too high for the job.
As I mentioned in my post with Golfer, I am good friends, very good friends with many pro pilots. I sure as heck wouldnt have lunch most Saturdays with them if I dislike pilots. And as I have also mentioned, I have the licenses in my pocket to understand something about flying aircraft, on top of that, I have a fair amount of exposure to the demands of the job to at least in a sense appreciate what they do, what it took to get to the coveted seats, and the demands they face.
But, like it or not, agree with me or not, 300G is too much to fly one week a month!
dago
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BTW, a 3 yr NWA F/O on the 320 makes $96900, at least according to the sight Mora provided.
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jeez that expressjet gig is not a bad deal. 40k a year starting out, at a regional. Then you look at eagle and see the junk pay they get.
Still dont think my bro makes 100k at delta. If he is, he is holding out on me!!
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Originally posted by Dago
BTW, a 3 yr NWA F/O on the 320 makes $96900, at least according to the sight Mora provided.
If every single month he flew his 80 hours in the best of circumstances.
Also, Expressjet first year pay is a minimum of 18,000 and if ya flew the maximum of 83.3 hours every month you'd make just under 20. If it was 40,000 I'd use them to build time instead of flying jumpers and watching cars.
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was going off the website golfer, dont know how accurate it is tho.
with the guarenteed hours and per hour pay it was over 40k.
Dago, you do realise the vast majority of pilots dont fly the big airlines right?
Do you also want to limit lawyer fees to? I think they make to much and doctors to.....sounds socialist to me. If the airlines cant afford the pilots then it folds and the system corrects for the next airline to start up.
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Originally posted by Dnil
[B}
Dago, you do realise the vast majority of pilots dont fly the big airlines right?
Do you also want to limit lawyer fees to? I think they make to much and doctors to.....sounds socialist to me. If the airlines cant afford the pilots then it folds and the system corrects for the next airline to start up. [/B]
Dnil, do you realize I have said repeatadly that my issue is about pilots at the majors only? I fully believe pilots at the commuters and regionals are on the other end of the scale typically and are underpaid.
And I also realize that very few lawyers are getting rich, only the top few. Do I think they get too much, yup. Most of those are scumbags who prey on people without the ability to protect themselves. I watch commercials like Sokolove trying to reel in anyone possible that he can use for any possible class action lawsuit that firm can dream up.
I certainly dont think lawyers should make hundreds of millions off tobacco lawsuit settlements. Do you?
dago
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as a person that favors capitalism I think they should make whatever the market will support.
On a personal level I do think the old major airlines are waaaaay screwed up. The pay scales are all porked. Seems like the guys with all the seniority get to make the contracts and since they had to pay their dues they figure the new guys should get shafted also.
As to the delta pay, my bro was making over 100k, big doh on my part, but they just agreed to a 30 percent paycut, so its back down to 70k. Better that then unemployed.
Me I just want to be able to pay my bills and get to fly.
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Hate to disappoint ya Dago, I wasn't ALPA.
Those are my experiences and I could fill pages, like just about every other Professional Pilot.
Funny you take IAM as a belittling comment. I personally think mechanics have a tough job and are underpaid for what they do. Had that discussion with Creamo a few times. Still, you take the suggestion that you are IAM as a slam. Think that says way more about you than me.
And thanks for continuing the string. I've never yet met the man that thinks pilots are overpaid that thinks his job pays too much. I'm sure you know you are worth every penny they give you... it's all those other guys that get too much.
You realize that airlines set their own qualification requirements over and above FAA mins don't you? So what happens when you require perfect health, college degrees, extensive hours in the 2-3000 range in complex high performance aircraft? Would you expect to get these guys for below average rates?
They do get them for below average rates.. because the applicants understand that in addition to paying their dues before getting their job, they will continue to pay their dues. It's only at the end of most careers that the real reward comes.
Your example of guys flying 7 days a month never happened at DAL. The best lines of time we ever had were on the MD-11. The trip was ATL to Japan. It was 14 hours over, 21 on the ground and 12+ back. These guys flew about 10 days a month. You portray this as "standard". There were 20 lines of time each month of this and the trip, by FAA regulation, required two full crews. So 40 Captains and 40 F/O's could get this trip each month. That's 80 guys out of 9500 pilots. Of course, only the Captain's with ~30 years with the airline are senior enough to get that trip and the F/O's would have probably 20 years and could be flying Captain on the 757 themselves.
Not exactly the way you tell it, is it? Most DAL guys work 16-18 days a month. Another red herring is the "days" at work. Pilots at the majors get paid by block hour. Most duty days to get your "daily block hours" have you on duty 12-13 hours.
So you had a jumpseat card from VP Flight Ops? Wow. At DAL, VP FO had to authorise everyone's access to the J/S. It was a formality. Mechanics had j/s privs, some pilot schedulers (the rotation builders; it was felt if they had to fly some of the trips they created, they'd be motivated to make them conform somewhat better to the diurnal cycle), Dispatchers had j/s... j/s privs are no big deal.
In short, either you really don't know much about the job and how long it takes at most majors to make it to the top paying jobs or you take the typical management tactic of presenting the extreme end of the payscale, available to a small percentage of the pilots and representing that as the "average" for everyone.
And now... I'll be off the boards a while. Ta.
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Nothing like a double shot of realism to help swallow your pride.
Toad, best of luck with your health.
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Too bad you are so negative and nasty Toad, but in the situation you find yourself, I woudn't be a happy person either. I wish you well in your return to health.
When you do get back, and if you care to read this thread anymore, your attacks on me don't change the realities, either yours or mine.
Yes, I had VP authorization to JS anytime I wanted. Gave that up when I transferred to a position with less travel. When 9/11 came along, as you are aware, JS access was strongly restricted. I could still access it if I have a need, but don't need that now.
In fact, it's typical of a mechanics view of pilots. Let me guess... you are IAM for NW?
Sugarcoat it all you want, your inference and disdain is clear. You dont just say mechanic, you say IAM. BTW, IAM doesnt represent Mechs at NWA, haven't for a few years.
Sure, airlines set a high standard, and thank God for that. But so do many other professions. Doesnt mean they all get paid the pay of an airline pilot.
Yes, I talked about the extreme end of the scale, congratulations on finally percieving something correctly. That is exactly what I have been talking about.
I hardly understand why you are getting angry, insulting and condescending in this thread. I stated my opinion, and whether you like it or not, I have a right to my opinion. You are not forced to agree, and no inflated Capts salary will be changed by it.
Amazing how pilots rush to attempt to justify the inflated salaries Capts make because they had to pay some dues to get to that position. Welcome to the real world fellas, it is not unusual in the working world to do the same in other fields, so get over yourselves, stop feeling sorry for yourselves. If the challenge and effort to fly for a living is too much, choose another job. It does have a price that must be paid, monetarily and in effort.
dago
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jetblue makes a decent profit for now. mainly because they still haven't paid 1 cent for thore a320's they fly. once airbus starts collecting there lease and those same A320's start coming due for there major mainenance checks we'll see just how large their profits remain. they also are making a mistake in my opinion in getting the EMB190's the need to now have 2 different training curriculums and training everyone on the new type adds unneeded costs for a plane that really doesn't do much for your operations.
as for pay, i agree the exponential pay scale has gotten extreme. A portion of that is due to when they give pay increases, a lot of the time it is as a percentage, so the high end gets a larger increase than the low end. i would gladly see the scale leveled some, but to go to a max of 150k for a 747 captain would be a bit extreme.
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Ten most overpaid jobs in the U.S.
Commentary: If only such largesse flowed to all of us
9) Major airline pilots
While American and United pilots recently took pay cuts, senior captains earn as much as $250,000 a year at Delta, and their counterparts at other major airlines still earn about $150,000 to $215,000 - several times pilot pay at regional carriers - for a job that technology has made almost fully automated.
By comparison, senior pilots make up to 40 percent less at low-fare carriers like Jet Blue and Southwest, though some enjoy favorable perks like stock options. That helps explain why their employers are profitable while several of the majors are still teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.
The pilot's unions are the most powerful in the industry. They demand premium pay as if still in the glory days of long-gone Pan Am and TWA, rather than the cutthroat, deregulated market of under-$200 coast-to-coast roundtrips. In what amounts to a per-passenger commission, the larger the plane, the more they earn - even though it takes little more skill to pilot a jumbo jet. It's as much the airplane mechanics who hold our fate in their hands.
Link (http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B954AA053-F953-43F3-BBC8-63D351A3BF2A%7D&siteid=google&dist=google)
Thought that was amusing. Pretty much dead on too.
From an Atlanta TV Station report regarding a pilot pay concession deal:
Delta pilots are currently among the highest paid in the nation. They earn an average of $100,000 to $300,000 per year, according to the company.
Link (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/3866304/detail.html)
It would seem to me Delta should know what its pilots are making.
But, what do I know, I am not a pro pilot.
dago
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Originally posted by talliven
jetblue makes a decent profit for now. mainly because they still haven't paid 1 cent for thore a320's they fly. once airbus starts collecting there lease and those same A320's start coming due for there major mainenance checks we'll see just how large their profits remain.
Absolutely correct, a lot of us are curious to see how they fare in the future.
dago
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Dago get real,
The reason pilots make the big bucks is not the day to day hum drum flying, its when the emergency hits. Look at Sue City, look at the skill it to took to get the plane close to the airport A DC-10 with no flight controlls, they earn the big bucks. Pilots kill people at about 300 or more at a time doctors do it 1 at a time, get the point.
Try taking a rookie pilot who gets paid what some one a Mc Donalds gets and fly into Los Angeles in a Cat III weather conditions, flying DC-10, a 500,000 pound airplane with 305 people aboard, flying at 140 KTS and put it on the runway about the time that you see it, when the rookies would be wetting there pants driving there car in that stuff. But I do it all the time, and I get you there. Can you fix an airplane if you cant see it (dont think so). I can land without seeing the runway thats takes skill, not all airline pilots or airplanes are Cat III qualified.
Another thing Pilots have to worry if they can pass a first class physical every 6 months if they cant they lose there job, they have to not break any FARs or they lose there licenses, they have to get check rides every 6 months if they cant pass, they lose there job, they have to take route checks also, if they cant pass they lose there job. One incident can lose a pilot there job forever. When we have a bad day people die in a big way. Thats why we get it right all the time, that takes training years of training thats why we get paid like we do, ask your favorite football player why he gets paid so well even when he lose the game.
My dad retired USAF as a two star he flew F-105 over north vietnam with 100 missions and retired United Airlines as a Captain on the 747 making 320k a year flying 1000 hrs a year but those years are gone.
I make six figures not as much but I earn every bit of it. Even flying airplanes that are poorly repaired by high school educated and over paid A&P mechanics ( thats a digg ).
I dont have my nose up in the air when I walk, Im a very personable person, but when I here someone talking, that has no clue, you get the point.
So dago please talk about something you know about and dont get upset because your annual income is in the amount, of taxes, that gets taken from an airline pilot paycheck.
I have been flying since I was 14 got my private certificate at 16, and went on to get a degree in aeronautical engineering. I had a private, commercial, instrument, and certified flight instructor instrument and ATP, both in airplane & helicopter, before flying for the navy, flying F-14s. I have been with the airlines for 14 years flying L-1011s, DC-10s, Dc-9s, B-717s and presently a Captain on the B-767-300ER at the age of 45. Im also a FCC certified avionics tech, and a member of ALPA. So I think I know what Im talking about.
Later, Straiga
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Straiga
I will credit you with one thing, you made me laugh. Great troll, someone might actually bite on that nonsense, but I am not one.
Hey, do you call yourself "Voss" sometimes? :D
dago
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Yeah me to, all the way to the bank.
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Dago,
Troll or not, hes go the point down pretty well.
Except for the grammatical errors with a certain word.
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It's tradition for pilots to not be the best spellers. Actually, I've got some of the best grammar and spelling habits and they're nothing to be that proud of. Though, it's nice when I 'spell check' a certain word and it turns out to be right after all. :)