Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: humble on November 06, 2004, 09:53:23 AM
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Sigh....
This sums up me and the 38 perfectly...
http://www.azhacker.com/images/uglyduck.ahf
In any other plane I can fly this pretty basic reverse with no problems...in a 38 I'm just miserable. Obviously a wee bit of flaps would of helped...but I get zero warning before departure and my speed is in the 135+ range at worst. Any comments from you gods of the 38 greatly appreciated:)....
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first let me say I'm not a "38 god", but here are my thougths anyway :)
First you had an F4u-1 on ya and he was closing with some good "E". Flaps would have helped, but I wouldn't have been as aggressive in responce to his moves. I would have maneuvered enough to mess up his shot, but then would have leveled out in a different direction. This would have made him burn more E to get back to me, so I could equalise with him better.
However, having pushed the attack.... that reversal ya did is one of my favs... you could have stayed with him using the flaps. Rolling over the top of the loops you should have been 2 if not 3 notches of flaps, bringing them back up one of two notches as you went into the lower part of the loop. You could have gone on continusly like that were to hog wouldn't have been able to do more than a couple. At that point you would have closed angles and gotten the kill.... well as long as you don't shoot like me!
Of course, I'm not a "god" so you can take it for what its worth :)
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Maddog...
your thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated....
I had a nikki back there who had just gone out of icon range...I was dragging as far as I could...all though I'd of let him close anyway. Once I broke the hog determined my actions....basically there are always three possibilities...bad, ok, good. He picked "bad" and that let me be aggresive (I'll always be as aggresive as I can). I dont like to give guys free shots so I'm not inclined to let em reload and try again.
What speed to you pop flaps at under those circumstances?
Basically I felt he was toast once he went ahead and took the shot....snap stall suprised me a bit....working on getting used to flaps...most other iron no need at those speeds.
Also sounds like you keep a notch or two even thru bottom...leave em down till they auto retract???
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Like MDJ pointed out, there are many options ...
but the one you picked was just fine and your reversal was beautiful. What I noticed in the film is that on his first pass, he shot some control surfaces off your plane. This could account for the sloppiness and the auger.
Do you use manual trim on the P-38 ?
I personally never use Combat Trim and I only trim the elevators to help keep a nose up attitude when needed.
With that in mind, once you completed you "roll" reversal (which was sweet), once I saw him start to go vertical, I would have started to dial in some elevator to get the nose up into my loop quicker. Like MDJ pointed out, just before the apex of the loop, I probably would have dumped 1 notch of flaps to bring it over quicker, and once that happened, I would immediately bring the flaps back in to gain some speed on the downhill run.
I think that if you had not suffered damage, and could have completed you loop, you would have gotten then F-4U.
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I was going to point that out too.... don't use combat trim in a 38 ! the slower you get the more the nose trims up, throwing you into a stall.... you can "wallow" around at the top of a loop like that, makes a real easy target :)
The flaps are hard to explain, Slap would have used only one notch at the top, where I would have use 2 or more. With a speed of 135, for me its two, thinking about the third. I guess its a feel thing. But using them seems to save E by getting the nose up and around quicker.
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Thank you both.....
1st off I didnt even realize he dinged the plane...90% of the time that type of "grazing" fire just damages the paint...i'll need to go back and look....very possible that caused the stall. I never use combat trim on any plane. I didnt think about dialing in some nose up however....great point. Once I get a few more under my belt I'll post a follow up ugly for intermediate lessons:)...
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It appears he nailed some flaps on the merge. In that case, flaps were not an option. At least flaps are what I saw fly off the plane as he made his shot on the merge.
I noticed the other night in our third fight, you actually had a slight advantage and evidently pulled too hard trying to maximize it. I saw you spin in, and put a few rounds in you to make sure. I actually expected you to maintain your advantage, so I dropped flaps and tried to stay nose high, because I figured you would drop your nose slightly for a nose low turn and then try to use the speed to complete the turn and pull up inside. I intended to reverse the turn as you came up.
You might have been able to recover if you had killed the engines (you should not have to in a P-38, but it DOES make a difference).
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Were you flying as "savage"?? (duh...didnt see the tag :D)
If so I remember it....I'm just not intuitive with the 38 at all. I probably have it on film...I'll chk tonight and see. If I've got it I'll post up...that way you can see it from my end and comment as appropriate.
For whatever reason I just dont seem to mesh well with the 38...it's a plane that seems to need to be flown very specifically to its strengths. I tend to prefer planes like the Ki-61 that I can make fit whatever role I want them to...often feel like the 38's flying me instead of the other way around:)
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I can't watch your film until maybe friday, so if you could describe your reversal I would give you help decieding flap deployment. But basically the 38 wants to get slow, and flaps help it get there. The F4U is a dangerous foe in a medium speed fight, much like the jug, and will put up a tremendous fight if well flown. The F4U can not, however, hang in there down at the <120mph range, and will lose position very quickly. Thus full flaps become the ideal. In a slow speed fight position almost always goes to the slower guy.
As far as the versitility of the 38 goes, I'm not sure what you mean when you say the ki61 can fit into any situation and the 38 can't. Success in any plane requires flying to that planes strengths. This is true in the 38 as much as anything, yes, but the difference the 38 offers (and why so many vets seem to prefer it) is that the 38 has advantages it can fly to in any situation. I'll list a few here, as maybe you've missed some in your initial trials.
At high speed the 38 can roll pretty well. It's no 190, but it can out roll a spit pretty well when shooting along at 350-400mph.
The 38 is damn heavy, and dives like a brick. The relatively lower compression speed requires you to be careful, but a well timed dive can get you away from many "faster" planes. The extra mass also contributes to good level flying energy retention, giving the impression that you can maintain rediculously fast speeds on the deck and often causing people to break off and comment about how fast the 38 is on ch200.
While the 38 doesn't really retain E like a 51D, it makes up for its higher drag with stall characteristics. So you're 50mph slower after your same zoom, but you can keep going up longer, and accelleration at low speeds is awsome in most fighters. Top out your zoom at 80mph and fewer planes will be able to follow.
At medium speeds the 38 offers a solid high drag platform and again incredible stall characteristics. Thus you can at least maintain position with the better medium speed turners until the fight transposes into a low speed stall fight. Flaps come out pretty fast at 200-250mph, and like all the american planes turning nose down with flaps out gives you a very solid turn rate. Take advantage of the drag and verticle performance to go for quick aggressive reversals, usually built around nose high barrel rolls.
At low speeds the 38 is one of the best planes in it's class. Only the early war planes can hang in there with you, and even against them you're going to have an advantage in stall characteristics. Verticle scissors is the name of the game. If you're losing position on the verticle scissors get aggressive and do a nose high flat scissors. Nothing else in the game is so adept at going nose up until 0mph and having total control in the reversal.
My impression of the KI-61 is that it's a solid medium speed turner, but is weak in both low and high speed fights.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
-pellik
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pellik....
Film is a basic on the deck angles reverse...basically a climbing right hander into a sweeping downward left hander presenting a relatively low % shot that sets up a nice kill shot setup that I blow...
Anyway,
38 is a plane I keep coming back to but simply dont like much. It's simply not fun to fly (for me at least). It reminds me of the 109 alot in that it has a "right way" and a "wrong way". Only 109s worth beans are the G-2/F-4 IMO. I've run into enough of them to see what they can do...simply find that a bit to boring for me...low attention span I guess. The 38 is basically a surgeons plane and I'm the guy with the chainsaw at heart. Average fight for me is probably 1-2 minutes max. Most good 38 drivers are barely warmed up by then....still I'm always up to learning something new and I'm using the 38 as Jabo (instead of planned A-20) this tour.
I'd love see a few clips from you if you've got em....got enough clips on Ki (and lala) up to give you afeel for how I fly (good and bad)...
Thanks again for the comments, greatly appreciated...next jabo hop I'll fool around with what you've suggested...if I get a decent clip I'll put it up for critique.
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Lots of good films at the Raiders Site (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=1) been thinking about making it my "home page" :)
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Just watching your film with stick in hand as if I were flying....
The initial first half of your turn to face the f4u, I was with you all the way. The 2nd half I wanted to roll harder left (you held your horizon angle, then rolled right) to not leave the shot.
The reversal was exactly what I would have done.
Savage is correct that you lost a flap, so flap usage was a moot point. With undamaged flaps, I probably would gained so much more angle on the way up, that it would completely depart from the remaining film.
On the verticle down of the loop I really, really wanted to flatten the turn off to the right, rather than continue a split-s.
Dont ask me how, but I would have headed that spin off at the first wiggle to the left.
The other gents here seem to be responding with good 38 tid bits, so Ill just leave it at that.
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i love combat trim in my 38:D
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I finally got to look at your film today. If I were flying I'd have been more comfortable with a lower faster reversal starting my break turn a lot earlier and keeping things a little softer. The reversal you did is a good one, it's advantage is that it can be very hard to counter. The down side is that E fighters like the F4U1 who can scrub E incredibly fast in a nose high turn will pick up the snapshot much too often. My concern when setting up any reversal is to be sure that I'm going fast enough at a high enough AOT that he can't get his nose around on me until after I've started my barrel roll. When you're a little slower then him going high like that slows you down too much, then even at a ~90 degree AOT you won't keep in front of his guns.
I would have started my barrel roll a full second or so before you did, too. He already had a shot on you, if you started your roll earlier you would have only shown him your engine, and avoided the hit to the flap. Oil probably would have gone, but that's not too terrible. Starting the barrel roll earlier requires the roll to be a bit bigger. The snap shot you'd get would be harder if he extended out, but if he tried to turn with you your high position would have allowed you to get into a stall loop pretty quick to end the fight.
I don't have a good film of this reversal in a 38 (Like everyone else, turning film on pretty much guarantees I'll fly like crap). But I do have a quick film of a very similar reversal while flying a 262 that's posted on the 479th's site.
-pellik
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thanks....
One of the "tendencies" I have is very late breaks. I think it comes from two things...1st as a trainer way back I just got in the habit with the babyseals....
2nd I feel that the longer I can hold the break the more I dictate the fight....seems with most folks once they "lock in" that they will continue to push the fight. I've found (again probably back as a trainer) that most folks have a go/no go....prior to that point they'll be a bit more flexible to "safe" fighting....but once they saddle up they just go....personally I'm really comfortable in "the phonebooth"....
This may give you and idea of normal for me....is another Ki-61 hop (literally last hop I flew)....let spitty in to~800 before I broke...good stick fun fight....missed my shot window he extended broke of to bring him back and 109 broke me off....bad SA/decision loop killed me but still pretty good example of how I fly.....
http://www.azhacker.com/images/film69.ahf
I've picked up a couple things here....
Murder...
Diff in roll.....agree completely....felt like the guy in movie titanic going ...turn...turn...turn...got to look at it again and see if I can pick what you see up...as for correction know what you mean...if ya look at clip I lose ki and grab her back 2 or 3 times....
Pellick...
I dont like flat anything...to me the hi yoyo rev is faster....but next time i'll try it...as for barrel roll i'll look at that to....I honestly didnt think he'd even hit me let alone ding me...I almost never get damaged on a rev (5% or less)...Barrel roll sooner just to avoid shot or as a part of the reverse?? ie timing or shot avoidance only?
two questions for both of you....
Given the situation as it was....is there a more prefered reversal??
Were flaps a big deal or simply me dealing with learning the FM...
Part of the issues are probably just learning the realities of the 38....again going to the clip in this reply...I can let a spit (or any plane) well inside 1000 in most planes in the set. F4U/F6/F4F/205/202/109FG2-6/lala5-7/P51b-d/....now obviously not everything plays out the same but thru 80% of the flight envelope they fly the same. The 38 just baffles me....from your comments I think I'm just "late" with the plane. I'll fly some more hops this weekend and if I come up with something worth the bandwidth Ill put it up...
Thank you both again...
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Btw, I often brake late, though the choice usually depends on what I plan on afterwards. Just to expand on my earlier comment. The first turn on your film, in that specific situation, I would have been looking to do a 360 nose down cork screw. At the merge point the intention would be to be crossing from right to left almost underneath him, which leaves practically no shot. If they push the issue to take a merge shot, it is an easy setup for a reversal.
One other addition, I would have taken a leading shot on the exit of that barrel no matter what. So often, whether or not you make a few pings, It causes the faster plane to instinctively maneuver, and it allows you to reel them in quicker. Here is an example film (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownloaddetails&lid=11&ttitle=reverse.zip)
I dug up a .38vf4u film (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownloaddetails&lid=17&ttitle=film45.ahf) film. Its not the best, but mabey it will give you some insight into the speed/flaps/E management considerations that have been hinted at.
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so instead of the reverse...you'd be looking to circle??...basically fly under him???...
Point on shot makes sense...been flying the Ki recently so ammo hordeing:)...I plan on going to your film lib over weekend...thanx for clip also....
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Originally posted by humble
so instead of the reverse...you'd be looking to circle??...basically fly under him???...
Not exactly, I didnt say Id follow all the way through with it, but trying to explain if you placed your plane in a slightly different position you could have avoided the hit, but still been close enough to original position for the reverse. Its only a matter of tens of yards and a few degrees. So saying 'approach as if' to distinguish the difference.
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cc....
Getting the feeling that getting the big ol barge (BoB) out of the line of fire is a bigger issue than I'm used to with other birds:)....
Thanks again...
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Nose high reversals are especially risky against the 38, 51b, f4u1, and 47d11. Basically, these planes just burn too much E and turn too well when nose high to effeciently avoid. If you had been fighting anything else your reversal would have been great.
When I watch your film from WCGUY's position I notice that you're set up for one of the easiest reversal counters in the game. Basically all someone needs to do to beat the reversal you set up is lag turn and stay low. Whenever anyone does a high break turn against me I always keep my nose well below my opponent expecting him to 'roll under' sooner or later. When someone starts to roll down in that reversal I transition from lag to lead and get a relatively easy snap shot. Furthermore I'm not really turning very hard for this shot and come out of the whole mess with a greater E advantage and just as good a position. So much greater that the reverse can be lost to a single or double immel.
If you did a low to high reversal instead he would have had to use that f4u's E burning potential to get in position for the shot, and would have been hurting bad after the reversal happened. I know the high reversals can be quick and dirty, but against american planes they are just too weak. Play to his weaknesses (long nose down turns run him out of E in no time) not his strengths (instentanious rate of turn in the f4u-1 is incredible).
He might have missed if you were in a smaller plane, yes. But you still picked the wrong reversal, IMO.
-pellik
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I'll have to look at the clip again later...from what I recall he had alot of E on me (or at least I thought)...I use that reverse whenever possible since its the most offensive rev in the book vs a significantly higher E con. Basically you get some early nose up response followed by a shot attempt that basically loses the fight right there. I dont have enough 38 experience to know if I'll get hit alot more or not but 95% of the time thats a clean kill. Now obviously thats based on the response I got (which is the norm)...he's in view all the way and I'll act accordingly. The problem with the low reverse you suggest is that (in my experience) it encourages the con to fight the correct fight (the vertical energy fight) in addition to giving him the angles fight. If you low rev and the positive E con goes high...you have less E and he has the high ground. In my mind you just made the fight alot harder. Easpecially vs a hog, which can shed E from the vertical and saddle up easily. I never reverse to evade...I'm looking to kill the other guy. Now obviously I got hit...so by definition I blew the pooch....on the other hand I had an easy kill and just let the plane get away. I'll certainly fool with various low rev etc and greatly appreciate your input. I just feel a "flat" reverse is almost always your worst option there...a good stick has an almost pavlovian response to counter with a hi yoyo....which is the last thing I want to encourage.
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I'm short on time here so hopefully my brief explanation gets the point accross.
I think this is where spending a lot of time in the 38 comes in to play. Ok, so he can do a high yo-yo and try to beat you from the verticle. You're in the best verticle fighter in the game. He can't take a shot on you in a low to high or flat reversal without blowing his E, competent at high yo-yos or not. Even if he doesn't pull hard enough for the shot you can reverse him anyway and just follow him up once you get a read on the E situation. He may go up higher, but if you do it right you'll be right behind him and can hang on the props longer, letting you stall last. If you get the E situation set up so that your stall is above his level flight recovery alt you've got it made. Of course this is only a good plan against planes with slightly more difficult stalls. The f4u's can be tough to control if you stand em on their tail too long.
-pellik
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Not to minimize the concern about a planes horizon bias, but I wouldnt get too tied up in the orentation of the reversal. Like I say at the conclusion of the yo-yo article (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=10), if you change the axis of the example reversal diagram, the picture and result are still the same.
Reading pelliks comments though did remind me of an encouter the other night with a similar hi/fast f4u in on my 38. At the point where you did a turn to merge to reverse, I waited...waited...waited...an d did a flat evade into a verticle reversal, and had him cross in front of me at 200yds. As pellik described I just followed him through the verticle in lag with less alt, staying inside his lfr alt. Once he had to nose down, I had him squirming on the deck from that point on.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Not to minimize the concern about a planes horizon bias, but I wouldnt get too tied up in the orentation of the reversal. Like I say at the conclusion of the yo-yo article (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=10), if you change the axis of the example reversal diagram, the picture and result are still the same.
Reading pelliks comments though did remind me of an encouter the other night with a similar hi/fast f4u in on my 38. At the point where you did a turn to merge to reverse, I waited...waited...waited...an d did a flat evade into a verticle reversal, and had him cross in front of me at 200yds. As pellik described I just followed him through the verticle in lag with less alt, staying inside his lfr alt. Once he had to nose down, I had him squirming on the deck from that point on.
Hey I'll always live and learn but as of now I totally disagree with respect to E vs angle fighting. If the Hog is in a +E state and has a clue he'll go vertical with no problem....your simply not gonna get a shot in the vertical unless he misjudges relative E state....now obviously if he tries to take the shot he's giving away both the E and angles you just gave him...any reverse is dependent on the other guy...he has both E and angles and has to be coerced into giving both up...A pilot schooled to go vertical on your reverse isnt going to give you a shot...and if you go vertical with him you'll die if he's any good...just a simple statement of fact.
Obviously however I'll go mess with it and see if I'm wrong....:D
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Originally posted by humble
Hey I'll always live and learn but as of now I totally disagree with respect to E vs angle fighting. If the Hog is in a +E state and has a clue he'll go vertical with no problem....your simply not gonna get a shot in the vertical unless he misjudges relative E state....now obviously if he tries to take the shot he's giving away both the E and angles you just gave him...any reverse is dependent on the other guy...he has both E and angles and has to be coerced into giving both up...A pilot schooled to go vertical on your reverse isnt going to give you a shot...and if you go vertical with him you'll die if he's any good...just a simple statement of fact.
Obviously however I'll go mess with it and see if I'm wrong....:D
Read Murdr's post again. The guy did go verticle, and Murdr didn't get a shot. What Murdr did do, however, was equalize E states enough so that after they both went verticle the guy couldn't get his nose back around fast enough for a shot. Murdr was then in an inside track stall fight with a f4u.
-pellik
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Some of you guys talk about a "vertical scissors". What is it, and more importantly does anyone have film? :)
We know the 38 is tops in going vertical....we're talking zoom... but even so zig zagging back and forth as we climb seem counter productive. I, as I'm sure others may already do this move, and just don't know that we are, but an explination could help.
Nomak showed me that the main idea is to maneuver to get a shot solution, not to just "do the maneuvers". Pellik showed me a strong merge, where going vertical in a double was a nice move to get on top and take control....tho AK-AK has know to get triples....I have no idea how !", but how much is too aggressive? when its 1 on 1 do ya throw away a ton of to go for the shot?
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Originally posted by pellik
Read Murdr's post again. The guy did go verticle, and Murdr didn't get a shot.
Actually I think I got a couple .50s in the outer edge of his right wing, but not sure. With that particular move, If you are good at anticipating, it gives a shot opportunity on exit. I hate to use the term snap shot, because you just shoot blind as they pass diagonally comming from underneath. Every once in awhile I guess perfectly and the fight ends there.
As far as the verticle goes, with this type of reversal, you exit so close to the other plane, it forces them to zoom partially horizontal.
Originally posted by MaddogJoe
Some of you guys talk about a "vertical scissors". What is it, and more importantly does anyone have film?
We know the 38 is tops in going vertical....we're talking zoom... but even so zig zagging back and forth as we climb seem counter productive. I, as I'm sure others may already do this move, and just don't know that we are, but an explination could help.
Nomak showed me that the main idea is to maneuver to get a shot solution, not to just "do the maneuvers". Pellik showed me a strong merge, where going vertical in a double was a nice move to get on top and take control....tho AK-AK has know to get triples....I have no idea how !", but how much is too aggressive? when its 1 on 1 do ya throw away a ton of to go for the shot?
You may have seen this before, but look at basic ACM (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=9) and seperate the blanket "verticle scissors" into individual merges. When you break it down you might see:
[list=1]
- immel vs immel= neutral-transitioning into
- immel vs immel= neutral-transitioning into
- [/list=1][list=a]
- immel vs flat turn=advantage immel OR
- spit-s vs flat turn=advantage flat turn[/list=a]
It breaks down as soon as one fails to turn up, so it often doesnt get to 3. The decision to 'chop' inside is a pure judgment call. If you cannot at least cripple the other plane, you will be left E deficient at that point. I typically dont do that in the MA, and occationally so it in DA. What is probably a more critical concern is your position on the merge.
Try this to see what I mean. Stack 2 quarters perfectly on top of each other. Your path follows the left half of the top quarter, your opponents the right half of the bottom quarter. You both come over the top into a mutual angle and possible HO.
Now slide 'your' quarter down 1/8 inch. You merge under him, and on top have an angle before your opponent.
Now also slide 'your' quarter right 1/8 in. You not only merge under him, but also pre-turn into the merge. Now you have alot more angle on your opponent, even sooner in your turn.
There is a limit, but with the right conditions you can get so much pre-turn that you barely brake the verticle plane, and can maneuver right in behind them.
(oh, and a tripple isnt too hard in a 38 with a fast start. Its possible to stall into a quad)
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Originally posted by MaddogJoe
Some of you guys talk about a "vertical scissors". What is it, and more importantly does anyone have film? :)
We know the 38 is tops in going vertical....we're talking zoom... but even so zig zagging back and forth as we climb seem counter productive. I, as I'm sure others may already do this move, and just don't know that we are, but an explination could help.
Nomak showed me that the main idea is to maneuver to get a shot solution, not to just "do the maneuvers". Pellik showed me a strong merge, where going vertical in a double was a nice move to get on top and take control....tho AK-AK has know to get triples....I have no idea how !", but how much is too aggressive? when its 1 on 1 do ya throw away a ton of to go for the shot?
I'll describe verticle scissors now reguarding a particular situation, and send a quick film from a DA fight I had with shane the other week to the 479th site that should be availabe in a day or so.
Let's jump right into a fight between two planes, a 38 and a spit9, where the spit9 has gotten a good advantage from the merge and is currently d200 out and about 100ft higher then the 38 on his 6. The spit is in the process of completing a maneuver and his nose is still below the 38, but he is pulling up to look for the guns solution, and by being nose down he is accellerating. To start the verticle scissors the 38 pilot pulls hard into the verticle, which is the smart move since the spit pilot is closing and is already fighting to get his nose up. By pulling up the 38 pilot reduces his rate of travel in the horizontal, and also slows down his plane by converting E to alt. Once he gets his nose straight up he rolls 180 and starts to pull it back down. Because of the reduced horizontal travel and because he put himself out of the spits guns the spit overshoots below him. Also because the 38 is slower, maybe only 80mph even when his nose reaches the horizon and he is travelling only horizontally, he is forcing an overshoot. The positions are now partially reversed. The 38 pilot is high and behind the spit, but his nose has to drop into a dive because of the sub-stall speed. The spit pilot wishes to regain his position and pulls up into the -exact same move-. He uses the verticle to reduce his horizontal travel and slow him down enough so that the 38 overshoots under him as he pulls up out of his stall recovery dive. The spit also reaches sub stall speeds and his nose drops past the 38 on it's way up. You now have a situation where both planes are scissoring in front and behind each other while maneuvering entierly in the verticle.
Eventually this fight will go to the 38, however. After a few moments of scissoring like this the hard maneuvers both pilots are doing drops speeds even further. Now when the 38 pilot goes up he drops far enough below stall speeds that his nose naturally drops back down, while the spit pilot finds a much nastier stall awaiting him at the top of the scissor. That's why spit9 pilots don't do verticle scissors with 38s very often. This whole thing is a nasty battle of successive overshoot maneuvers.
Your other question was about why you would want to "zig zag" in the verticle. When planes enter a stall fight, which encompasses the rope-a-dope maneuver, the winner of the fight isn't the guy who goes up higher unless the lower plane is outside of the higher planes level flight recovery altitude. The winner is the guy who's stall is better timed. If you're going up behind me and stall first I rope. If I'm going up behind you and you stall first you'll overshoot in your stall recovery dive giving me the attack position. When you have so much more E then your opponent that he can't even get within d600 for a shot on you then going straight up is fine. You're sticking up way above him hoping he will throw himself into a complete stall just pointing his plane at something well out of range. This works on newer sticks, but many pilots will break off early knowing exactly what your plans are. My rope-a-dope is very different from this in that I try to decieve my opponent. I'll be going only maybe 50mph faster then him as I take my pass, and he can probably get a good tracking shot if he follows me up. So what do I do? I barrel roll straight up with my nose about 10 degrees shy of verticle. By not going straight up the closure between our planes is pretty much zero instead of negative 50mph, giving him the impression he can catch me. Also hitting a plane in a barrel roll is hard enough, let alone when you're fighting a stall. Thus I keep him nice and close, maybe in the d400 range, while we both go up. When I start getting down to 100mph or below I know he is stalling and just reverse over and pop him. I find this ropes many many more people then the go super fast and extend up approach. The 38 is both an angles and E fighter, which makes it's ideal fighting style that of putting your opponent into a difficult E situation and then starting a turnfight.
-pellik