Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on November 08, 2004, 10:43:37 AM
-
I am having a heck of a time dealing with the La-7. It just seems unbelievably good.
I switched to the Ki-84 this Tour and am finding that the La-7 is simply a superior fighter in all ways. I cannot (and have not) defeated an La-7 that knew I was there. This looks like it will be the first Tour in a LONG time that I end with a negative Kill/Death ratio against the La-7 even though I have switched from the quasi-fighter Mosquito to the true fighter Ki-84.
It would be one thing if the La-7s would rely on boom and zoom tactics utilizing their superior speed or keep the fights fast where the Ki-84's controls are very heavy, but they don't even need to do that. The La-7 simply out turns the Ki-84, even once the Ki-84 gets it's flaps out. How the La-7 with those dinky little wings can out turn the Ki-84 I just don't know, but it does. My aircraft will be shuddering on the edge of a stall and the La-7 will still turn inside me. Watching over my shoulder it doesn't seem that the La-7 drivers are doing anything semi-fancy either, they're just holding the stick as far back as they can too.
What tactics should the Ki-84 use to deal with the La-7? How do you deal with an aircraft that is faster, better climbing, tighter turning, faster accelerating and better rolling?
-
One thing, too, I've noticed about the Ki84 is the flaps won't deploy til my speed has bled to somewhere around 120 mph. Seems like the lala can deploy flaps at just under 150 mph. Am I off, here, or has anyone noticed the same thing? Last night I tangled with a couple of lalas (they are very popular, it seems) in a F6F and in a spit: the outcome was not pretty, from my perspective. It's been several days since I even tried a Ki84, since my first 3-4 sorites in it were rather unfruitful.
-
How do you deal with an aircraft that is faster, better climbing, tighter turning, faster accelerating and better rolling?
I try to HO 'em... :aok
-
Ki-84 can put flaps out at around 167 to 160 for 1st notch
Karnak, the La7 is somewhat easy to defeat unless the guy flying it is a good stick......... Ki-84 should have no problem with it under 165 mph..........
I understand your frustration but think you would better your self if you spent some time in the DA with Shane, Nomak, Levi, and others..........film your fights and post them, ask people to view over your films and give you pointers on where you can accelerate your skills advantage....
everyone at one point or another hits a plateau / brick wall and needs a helping hand to get past it.......it is nothing to ask for some help, I do the same at times....
-
LA7's are easy to kill...
assuming your a good Hog driver..
the fu4-1 is particularly sutiable for la7 killing.. athough, fu4-c and fu4-d are good.
Now the La7 can't roll or sissor very well as well as fly slow speed...
I find La7s drivers trying to do both and most time I able to kill them ... even if they are on my six... a few fast sissors and hunter becomes the hunted...
any hog or fwa5 or Jug driver that knows his business should be able to kill la7's with out much trouble...
-
"The La-7 simply out turns the Ki-84, even once the Ki-84 gets it's flaps out. "
I humbly (however strongly) disagree. In my experience the KI84 well out classes either the la7 and la5. Just my opinion, but overall stats (and even my sorry numbers) seem to support this.
The La-7 has 237 kills and has been killed 250 times against the Ki-84-Ia.
The La-5FN has 32 kills and has been killed 53 times against the Ki-84-Ia.
-
Chitownflyer,
The F4U-1 is easy to kill La-7s in. It out turns them. I don't enjoying flying the F4U very much. Thanks for posting to crow about how great your fighter is.
Zanth,
I can't agree with that and posting numbers like that says nothing about how the Ki-84 won those fights. Every time I have gotten into a fight with the La-7 using the Ki-84, either verticle or horizontal, the La-7 turns better than the Ki-84. As I said, I'll have flaps out (meaning below 167mph), using the rudder and shuddering at the edge of the stall and the La-7 will have a gun solution on me within 270°.
-
The La7 in AH2 turns about as well as the Spit 9 does. The Ki-84 turns slightly better (slow), plus it has outstanding low speed handling. The Ki-84 can keep its nose up relatively easily at speeds less than 100 mph, giving you a huge advantage in a low speed rolling scissors type fight.
I've typically found that most La-7s will turn with you until you get close to a firing solution, then they level out and hit the NO2.. I think I'm only like 2-2 against them this tour, in spite of the fact that they are all over the place. I tend to get killed by more nimble planes in the gangbanging type fight your typical La7 driver prefers.
1v1, if you can get one that is willing to fight, I'd say the best bet is to sucker them into a spiral climb, as tight as you can get. Just stay out in front of their guns and spiral upward.. you can keep going up and around while they follow you trying to get guns on you.. they'll stall out before you do. Just make sure you actually do a spiral.. you don't want to be climbing outrageously steep.. they can track you pretty easily doing that.
You have to be pretty quick coming back around though, because as soon as the La-7 stalls the guy will be running. Ideally, you want to come over the top just before he stalls, and shoot him up as he noses down to dive away. You won't get a second chance to kill him.. if the La-7 driver has a quarter of a brain you won't even get a first chance, but the spiral climb has worked on every plane I've tried it on so far.
Also... I'm pretty sure the La-7 out turns the F4U by a pretty significant margin in a sustained turn. The F4U may be able to get inside of a La-7 initially because it bleeds speed so much faster, but once both planes settle into their turns I think the La-7 will turn circles around any F4U.
-
Originally posted by Urchin
Also... I'm pretty sure the La-7 out turns the F4U by a pretty significant margin in a sustained turn. The F4U may be able to get inside of a La-7 initially because it bleeds speed so much faster, but once both planes settle into their turns I think the La-7 will turn circles around any F4U.
what allows the F4U series to turn with the La7 is it bleeds E faster, once you reach near sustained or slower turn speed the La7 comes back on the f4U, as long as you can get him in the first 3 turns or less you ok, if you go beyond this you ( being in the Hog) will have to rely on your roll to reverse direction and cross the La7 up in the scissors maneuver..........this is how I view it anyhow.....
-
Originally posted by Karnak
posting numbers like that says nothing about how the Ki-84 won those fights.
Of course the numbers don't tell the whole story - however you can't just go to the other extreme and dismiss them out of hand either. All sorts of pilots all sorts of flying styles - overall numbers will indeed give you a crude average of what is going on
Picking Spit V because of it's popularity and it's common use as a flat turn fighter.
The La-7 has 191 kills and has been killed 137 times against the Spitfire V.
The Ki-84-Ia has 240 kills and has been killed 239 times against the Spitfire V. (see pretty even)
and just for recap -
The Ki-84-Ia has 252 kills and has been killed 237 times against the La-7.
-
Karnak....you need to clarify some stuff...
As a blanket statement your completely wrong...the la-7 simply cant turn with a Ki-84. But without a clip to look at there's no way to offer any feedback on whats going on.
As a general rule the Ki-84 cant roll with an La-7 and is limited with regard to elevator authority at higher speeds. Put those two togeather and the La-7 can manuever out of plane to a Ki very easily. It's very possible that your being yoyo'd to death. When you say you cant kill a Lala I'm assuming your dealing with both positive and neg E situations....are dealing with merges 1 vs 1 or bouncing them or being bounced. I have no trouble at all with la-7's 1 vs 1 in a Ki-61. I posted a clip over in the training forum thats a lala bouncing my Ki...you can see the verticals and rudder he's using...easy to lose that fight.
My guess is your simply carrying to much speed throughout the fight. If you'll post a couple of clips I'm sure TC and others can help you out an awful lot....I put some Ki-61 clips up (the last one is the Ki vs la-7) that could help...also one that is pony vs yak. Hardest thing for many to learn is speed/angles management....if your getting out turned like you say you are then thats probably why.
http://www.azhacker.com/images/Ki61vsla7.ahf
http://www.azhacker.com/images/Ki61.nikki.rev.ahf
http://www.azhacker.com/images/lowponyrev.ahf
-
Originally posted by Zanth
"The La-7 simply out turns the Ki-84, even once the Ki-84 gets it's flaps out. "
I humbly (however strongly) disagree. In my experience the KI84 well out classes either the la7 and la5. Just my opinion, but overall stats (and even my sorry numbers) seem to support this.
The La-7 has 237 kills and has been killed 250 times against the Ki-84-Ia.
The La-5FN has 32 kills and has been killed 53 times against the Ki-84-Ia.
:D :D :D
Hehe....
I'd like even one even fight with you in the MA.....
-
Originally posted by Chitownflyer
LA7's are easy to kill...
assuming your a good Hog driver..
the fu4-1 is particularly sutiable for la7 killing.. athough, fu4-c and fu4-d are good.
Now the La7 can't roll or sissor very well as well as fly slow speed...
I find La7s drivers trying to do both and most time I able to kill them ... even if they are on my six... a few fast sissors and hunter becomes the hunted...
any hog or fwa5 or Jug driver that knows his business should be able to kill la7's with out much trouble...
Actually I'd say its the lack of quality la-7 drivers....if your scissoring an la-7 and winning then your dealing with an awful poor lala driver. You scissor a hog vs a good one and your hog will have an apple in its mouth:)....
-
Originally posted by Karnak
Chitownflyer,
The F4U-1 is easy to kill La-7s in. It out turns them. I don't enjoying flying the F4U very much. Thanks for posting to crow about how great your fighter is.
Zanth,
I can't agree with that and posting numbers like that says nothing about how the Ki-84 won those fights. Every time I have gotten into a fight with the La-7 using the Ki-84, either verticle or horizontal, the La-7 turns better than the Ki-84. As I said, I'll have flaps out (meaning below 167mph), using the rudder and shuddering at the edge of the stall and the La-7 will have a gun solution on me within 270°.
1st...
The -1 is a great ride but it doesnt out turn an la-7 like the Ki-84 does. In fact its inferior in all ways except roll and dive to the lala. To beat a Co-e la-7 in a -1 hog you need to beat the other pilot not the plane.
2nd
Zanth is easily the "smartest" stick I've ever run into. He never puts himself at a disadvantage and always uses the tool he's strapped in the way it was designed. Now if your the "antizanth" and constantly putting yourself in bad situations that may explain the problems your having...
As for the Ki-84 vs La-7....the lala owns the ki in the vertical due to "total E" however the Ki hangs like a UFO so in a phonebooth fight the Ki will own the vertical. The Lala cant turn with a Ki other than at high speeds....
-
I've killed 3 La-7's in a Ki-84, and I've been killed once by an La-7 in a Ki-84, so no problems for me on that issue.
-
I don't think its that hard to kill an la7 seriously. Unless your in the situation where you are running from a horde, and an la7 plus 3 spits are picking away at you.
La7s 1 vs 1 aren't anything special, and the fact that you can't kill one in a ki84 out of all planes, puzzles me. Ki84 feels like another n1k to me, and doesn't seem like a plane that would have difficulty in a 1 vs 1 with an la7.
-
I'd not consider myself inexperienced. I've never had this much trouble with the La-7 in anything other than the Ki-84. They were very worrisome in the Mosquito, but I had a higher success rate in that overweight fighter-bomber than I do in the Ki-84.
humble,
If you are correct in that I am carrying too much speed through the fight (and I have definately lost Ki-84s that way to other fighters) then the Ki-84 is hopeless as I am getting the fight down below 150mph. If it doesn't have adequate elevator authority at 150mph it is worse than the A6M for speed induced control heaviness.
I don't have any film as I am usually too busy by that time to worry about fumbling with the keyboard to turn the film on. It seems that if I turn film on nothing interesting will happen. I've made lots of boring films over the years in AH, but have never got one of my interesting moments on film.
-
Karnak has 3 kills and has been killed 5 times in the Ki-84-Ia against the La-7.
Those three never saw me coming though. They were being dragged, roped or simply were unaware.
-
It's pretty easy to film stuff....I simply turn it on when I get into Icon range. Something is out of whack...a lala wont turn with you at 150...or 175..or 200...or 225...just that simple. However viewed in three dimensions the world changes. The lala might very well have angles on you...your at 150 and he's at 225 but flying in your oblique vertical. Take a look at the pony vs yak clip...I never "out turned" him...but I out flew him...I never actually was saddled up on him but used the vertical to convert a lag pursuit situation to a lead angle and set up a pretty decent shot window. I'd bet thats whats happening to you....you think your being out turned but your not...simply out ACM'd...your taking an awful tough road by not finding someone to work with.
-
From what I've seen, the Ki-84 and La-7 are pretty close. The La-7 has a better top speed. The Ki-84 outclimbs it and out turns it. If the fight stays close and dirty the Ki-84 should win. Of course pilot skill comes into play. A good La-7 pilot is going to use his speed to extend far enough that he has time to get some alt before the Ki-84 can catch him in the climb. I had a fight the other night vs an La-7 that lasted almost 10 minutes. I closed to within 200 yds of his 6 several times, but always at just the wrong angle. Every time I'd get almost to a firing solution, he'd dive out (always made sure he had air under him to dive away before engaging) and I'd keep up for awhile at 400 out and then slowly lose him. I have my convergence set to 300 and he could get out to 400 before I could line up on him. I dont waste ammo if its 400 yds. or more unless I'm trying to force him to break. At about 2k out he'd climb and I'd gain on him again, then he'd rev. and we'd go round a few times. Then repeat. Finally a group dove in and a pony driver got him.
-
humble,
It may be that, but it sure doesn't look like it when I'm in the fight. Looking over my shoulder it looks like the La-7 just gradually pulls around into position on me.
I've used lag pursuits to kill better turning fighters before and I'd think it would look more distinct from the fighter to be killed.
I'm not giving up by any means, but I am hoping that Pyro fixes the Ki-84's performance at speed. It isn't supposed to be an A6M, it is supposed to be a balance between Western and Japanese fighters in that regards.
The American test praises it for it's light control forces.
The RN noted that it rolled 25% faster than the Seafire.
The Japanese pilots noted that while they'd wanted a fighter like the Western fighters, the Ki-84 was a balance between them and older Japanese fighters.
-
A film clip will give you two things....your/his "track and accurate speeds. You'd be able to tell exactly whats happening. If your being out turned "in plane" by a lala at low speed then either he has angles and/or he got slower than you and you "pulled thru" his lag position as you slowed....in effect your flying the "outer track" and he's already on the "inner" one...your slowing down to "Get inside" and he's almost at stall but already flying his tightest arc...if you go vertical (urchins spiral climb) he's toast....by pulling in plane with him your flying into his shot window....only thing I can guess without something to look at. Again I strongly suggest you take up TC on his offer...if you happen to see me in MA I'd be happy to fly a few in TA or DA and see whats up...
-
As a last comment here Karnak....
You keep making this a "plane issue" when its probably a pilot issue. I normally fly iron in the ~30-40 ENY range and cant ever remember saying the plane lost. You can put any pilot in here 1500 out on my 6 in the plane of his/her choice vs me in a Ki-61 and I'm gonna beat em as often as I would on a straight on even merge. The guys who are gonna beat me are just gonna beat me...the others are gonna die most of the time (yea I'll lose a few to the initial snapahot)...look to the pilot (you) not the plane for answers to your problems here.
As an FYI I was 8-1 (as AKhumble) in a Ki-61 vs la-7 last tour...but 17-12 overall.
Mostly got killed in my "jabo" rides 3-2 in D40 jug 0-2 F6F/0-2 P38 etc...again dont know circumstances your fighting under. If I'm dropping ord...I'm usually going in taking out barracks DAr etc...not a high survivability endevour.
-
Karmak
I am talking without having seen your fights so I could be off, but I think you should give it some time to learn everything your plane can do. As far as the lala, I used to fly it a lot. I used to die a lot in it too, until I learned how to fly it. Its IMO the best fighter in the MA. So, since you are not in the best plane and dealling with the best, you need to find something else YOU can do better than the other pilot. One think is sure, if the lala driver knows what he is doing, its not going to be as easy as people make it sound.
Don't focus on what your plane can do better than his. Focus on what you can do better than him. If you do the right thing, is should not matter what he is flying.
-
La7 doesn't climb better than ki84, but if i don't get in stupid turn fight ,ki84 can't catch me.
Ki84 has lot of amo and better range, can use it for atack
La7 is still plane for short range,base defence
i think we have 2 planes with good peformances in the same range of alt, but whoever wants can trade the speed of La7 for range ,amo and turn rate of Ki84
-
Yea Karnak, if you want to fool around in the DA or something I'd be happy to show you how I fight them. It tends to lead to a lot of "draws" more than outright kills though, since they can run away at their leisure.
-
Originally posted by humble
Actually I'd say its the lack of quality la-7 drivers....if your scissoring an la-7 and winning then your dealing with an awful poor lala driver. You scissor a hog vs a good one and your hog will have an apple in its mouth:)....
thats not the only trick in the bag for the hog.. the hog can fly very very slow... with it's big flaps and huge rudder roll authority, I have taken on many La7 in co alt, co equal e fights and most time won and won against la7 drivers that knew their business...
a. Hog can out turn LA7 ( which it turth can turn almost as well as a spitted.
b. Hog can out roll and sissor any la7 driver good or bad. using rudder
c. A Hog can pace a la7 long enough if the la7 tries to book out of a fight to kill it running away while trying to disngage a bad situation..
Don't kid your self I 'v killed many an expericnced La7 not just harp seals... including, if i recall, you a few times...
The hog is very well suited for work in the Main Areana were speed toughness and manuverablity is important...
not many La7drivers have killed me in a fair square up fight with my hog.
Chi
-
hehe....
everybody has killed me at least a few times...if not more:( :mad: :D
As for the hog....
Well....
1st it wont turn as well as a spitty (even almost) of any flavor....period.
2nd it wont out turn a well flown la-7....period.
Hog does own lala in roll rate (and there for scissor)
The hog is a much better plane on the edge...however only a moron in an la-7 (i.e someone like me) will let you get there.
3rd A hog cant "keep pace" with a lala except when pushed off a cliff....
I agree the hog is one of the best MA planes around (especially the -1).
Now as for your comment and my response....
The scissor is a defensive move utilized to defend against a guns solution...nothing more nothing less. An attacker can elect to accept or refuse the scissors engagement. The lala is a "double superior" plane to the Hog (-1). A competent lala driver (oxymoron) will simply deny the scissors and have lost nothing.
Now since pilot ability is 80%+ of the equation an outstanding pilot in a familiar plane is very difficult to beat. I'm sure you outfly most of the lala's you meet. Dont confuse the issue, your not beating em with a scissors...your simply opening your attack with whatever twitch you use. (added at edit)...I'm always amazed how many folks (talking 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2) have no idea that I'm trying to kill em when I reverse. I'd just as soon have 1500 behind as ahead....been around long enough to know you think the same way...aggressive pilots win all ties
As for me and the lala, I suck in the thing (nikki also)...simply have never taken the time to really learn em well enough.
As for you and me, you've never killed me in AH2 (or me you)...:D :D
-
I have not flown to awful much in this tour prob 14 hrs or so, but my K/D against the La7 is 9 to 1, meaning I been killed once by an La7 and have 9 kills on an La7,
F4U-1 vs La7 = 7 vs 1
F4U-1C vs La7 = 1 vs 0
F4U-1D vs La7 = 1 vs 0
I did not beat these La7s by out turning them, I used out of plane maneuvers, etc..... only 1 fight was drawn to the deck ( because I was already low ) and I was in the F4U-1..after 4 horizontal turns on the deck the La-7 got around on me, notcing this I rolled & reversed the turn to get around on him in the opposite direction to score my kill......
other fights are where La7 is bearing down on me and I use a High G roll over the top, or High G roll underneath maneuver ( type of lag roll ) which pushes the bogey out infront of my 3/9 line......
or your basic high and Low yoyo's, catching them in a snapshot/crossing shot......
The Hog isn't fast, it can't accelerate out of the way of it's on tail, and is not that great of a climber or turner but if you know its quirks and where the edges of the envelope are you can use them to your advantage....same goes for any plane in AH2
edit: just saw where humble mentioned agressive pilots, my theory is if you think you have lost or will lose when you are in a defensive situation, then you WILL! I try my hardest to win regardless if I am missing 1 of my elevators, or flaps, or ailerons, or guns etc........you have not lost until you are teleported back to the tower.......so never give up or let defeat creep its way into your thoughts! :)
-
The La7 is a monster.
The only things that may give me trouble from time to time in the MA while in flying it is the Spit5 and the Zeeks. Throtle control and flaps (as much as you can whenever you can) and it can hang pretty well with some of the better known turn fighters.
Its almost more fun to take into a furball than the SpitV.
:)
-
Man, I love the Zeros in dogfights, especially the furballs.
You can turn inside anybody... And nothing is better at 210mph.
-
The one thing I did notice about it since the new patch came out is that it seems to be able to take more punishment. I came in on an unsuspecting one in a tiffy from a high 6, and counted a great deal of sprites on the top of th plane (at least 8), he snapped the thing to the right, and kept right on flying. Then a pony came in on him, ripped his wing off, and I'm left with an assist. There were a few occurrences this tour I can think of where I just beat the crap out of one, and he just flies around happy as a clam with only 1 aileron missing or something to that affect. :mad:
-
More punishment? It seems the same to me.
I ripped an La-7 in half with about 100 50cal shots from my P-51D two days ago. I remember doing the exact same thing about a month and a half ago.
-
i'll throw this out, then have all you call me a "realism nazi":
not 1 engagement scenario i have read in this thread is a realistic engagment.
so what plane XXX outperforms plane YYY fomr different theaters and countries.
do you really think the jap engineers planed on combating an La7 when designing the ki84? do you really think the americans planed on fighting an la7 when designing the f4u?
plane performance IMHO should be decided on reliably data, from actual engagments. 190A5-vs-La7 ki85-vs-F4u you get the idea.
karnak in his original post asked for help understanding the fight between an la7 and a ki84.
well there is no data in the world about that, so we here playing the game can base it only on gameplay. BUT using gameplay to accuratly judge the real life plane desings is so off i can't being to describe it.
just my thoughts.
-
Karnak....
flew a hop when I got home and filmed this...it might give you an idea...or maybe not. Is me in my Ki-61 vs a spitty I'm shadowing...no real merge or anything just MA reality.
Couple things that might be relevant....
1st) I'm in lag except when I'm shooting....
2nd) I'm off gas alot even though I'm probably even or Neg E at times
3rd) I'm almost never "in plane" with the spit
4th) at end I use the vertical to convert lag to lead and let the spitty "pull into the shot"...basically this is the inside vs outside track I'm talking about...90% of the fight I'm hanging in his 6 letting him do the work, near the end I'm in lag but set up out of plane and go from nose high lag to nose low lead....he tightens his turn and pulls right into a guns solution...now he might be going .....how did that Ki turn with me....but truthfully I never turned with him once in the fight....i'm always out of plane with him.
http://www.azhacker.com/images/film30.ahf
I've got no clue if you've even bothered to look at any of these...let me know if i'm just wasting bandwidth....
-
Originally posted by JB73
i'll throw this out, then have all you call me a "realism nazi":
not 1 engagement scenario i have read in this thread is a realistic engagment.
so what plane XXX outperforms plane YYY fomr different theaters and countries.
do you really think the jap engineers planed on combating an La7 when designing the ki84? do you really think the americans planed on fighting an la7 when designing the f4u?
plane performance IMHO should be decided on reliably data, from actual engagments. 190A5-vs-La7 ki85-vs-F4u you get the idea.
karnak in his original post asked for help understanding the fight between an la7 and a ki84.
well there is no data in the world about that, so we here playing the game can base it only on gameplay. BUT using gameplay to accuratly judge the real life plane desings is so off i can't being to describe it.
just my thoughts.
JB....
you couldnt be more wrong...ACM is ACM....the fight between a Ki-84 and an la-7 is functionaly the same as the fight between a Ki-84 and a -1 hog in many respects. In most instances the fighter pilot is the critical component in deciding victory in air combat. Karnak made a comment that he's being out turned by the lala....simply not a reality so something else is happening. He's losing the ACM battle by misapplying the aircraft.
-
JB73,
I wasn't talking about reality. I was talking about how they match up in the game.
humble,
I'm at work right now and I highly doubt this computer would even run AH2, let alone how my employer would react.;)
I'll take a look at them when I get home.
-
I just turned an La-7 with a Ki-84 at 180 knots in the MA, I was gaining until I ran out of fuel :lol
-
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
From what I've seen, the Ki-84 and La-7 are pretty close. The La-7 has a better top speed. The Ki-84 outclimbs it and out turns it. If the fight stays close and dirty the Ki-84 should win. Of course pilot skill comes into play. A good La-7 pilot is going to use his speed to extend far enough that he has time to get some alt before the Ki-84 can catch him in the climb. I had a fight the other night vs an La-7 that lasted almost 10 minutes. I closed to within 200 yds of his 6 several times, but always at just the wrong angle. Every time I'd get almost to a firing solution, he'd dive out (always made sure he had air under him to dive away before engaging) and I'd keep up for awhile at 400 out and then slowly lose him. I have my convergence set to 300 and he could get out to 400 before I could line up on him. I dont waste ammo if its 400 yds. or more unless I'm trying to force him to break. At about 2k out he'd climb and I'd gain on him again, then he'd rev. and we'd go round a few times. Then repeat. Finally a group dove in and a pony driver got him.
Let's review the two fighters side by side.
Max speed at 22k:
La-7 wins by more than 30 mph
Max speed on deck:
La-7 wins by about 40 mph
Sustained climb from sea level:
La-7 outclimbs the Ki-84 by about 800 fpm.
Sustained climb at 22k:
Close enough to call even.
Acceleration at sea level:
La-7 runs away with ease.
Acceleration at 22k:
La-7 still runs away, just not as quickly.
Turn rate at 300 mph:
La-7 wins because the Ki-84 has excessively heavy elevators (HTC needs a look at because this was not reported by Allied pilots who tested the aircraft).
Turn rate at 200 mph:
Just about equal, the Ki-84s elevators are still too ineffective.
Turn rate at 150 mph:
Ki-84 is superior, especially if fighting in the vertical.
Roll rate at 300 mph:
Heavy ailerons limit the Hayate. La-7 wins easy.
Roll rate at 200 mph:
Closer, but La-7 still prevails
Roll rate at 150:
About equal.
If and when HTC fixes the Ki-84 problems associated with speeds above 200 mph, the Hayate will become a far more dangerous adversary for the La-7. For now, it must drag the fight down to low speeds to win against a good stick. Moreover, a good stick will disengage before that happens. Fo rnow, you will have to depend on the williness of an La-7 fighter to mix it up.
My regards,
Widewing
-
How do you deal with an aircraft that is faster, better climbing, tighter turning, faster accelerating and better rolling?
I fly the 190A8, and last month I was 15 and 1 against the LA7.
So how do you deal with a superior aircraft??? While, just about any plane is superior to the 190A8. So the solution is energy management, pure and simple. Below could be called Dicta FokerFoder, but I stole all the ideas reading Robert Shaw and Dicta Boelke:
1. Stay higher,
2. Stay faster,
3. Pick your fights,
4. Never turn with the LA7 (or any other plane if in a FW190)
5. If you don't make the kill withing 20 seconds of engaging, break off the engagement and egress while you still have a significant E advantage.
Simple as can be, the LA7 is flown by a lot of bunny pilots and can be a nice light snack. In the hands of a veteran the LA7 will hand you your butt. But... if you stick with 1,2,3,4 and 5 and even a verteran will have a hard time taking you out. :aok
-
pffft, 190s can't turn fight. Any noob knows that! :)
-
AKFokerFodder,
That's great for the Fw190, and I have had good success against the La-7 in the Fw190A-5, but I can tell you right now that staying fast against the La-7 in the Ki-84 is a really, really bad idea.
-
I've learned to never argue with widewing on AC data but I'd give the edge to the Ki well thru 200 in a "flat turn" obviously I might be wrong. I just grabbed a lala and went Ki hunting (didnt find one)...but wow what a power band. Simply gives the plane amazing versatility....easy for a lala driver to play games with you. Was an interesting clip so I posted it in training forum but cant see it applies here....will play with lala a bit more though. From what I saw it excels at getting slower tha n con and gaining angular advantage then powering up for shot...kind of oppisite of the norm.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
AKFokerFodder,
That's great for the Fw190, and I have had good success against the La-7 in the Fw190A-5, but I can tell you right now that staying fast against the La-7 in the Ki-84 is a really, really bad idea.
Karnak...
You seem to always talk in absolutes, there is no such thing in ACM. You are either angles/energy/boom&zoom or some combo of the above as dictated by circumstance. If you bounce me in a spit 9 in a lala I'm gonna angles fight you...and yes I'll out turn you...now as e state equalizes you'll have a window I need to manage...then i'll convert to E fighting....once I have an edge I can either E fight B&Z or seek to convert back to angles....
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I fly the 190A8, and last month I was 15 and 1 against the LA7.
So how do you deal with a superior aircraft??? While, just about any plane is superior to the 190A8. So the solution is energy management, pure and simple. Below could be called Dicta FokerFoder, but I stole all the ideas reading Robert Shaw and Dicta Boelke:
1. Stay higher,
2. Stay faster,
3. Pick your fights,
4. Never turn with the LA7 (or any other plane if in a FW190)
5. If you don't make the kill withing 20 seconds of engaging, break off the engagement and egress while you still have a significant E advantage.
Simple as can be, the LA7 is flown by a lot of bunny pilots and can be a nice light snack. In the hands of a veteran the LA7 will hand you your butt. But... if you stick with 1,2,3,4 and 5 and even a verteran will have a hard time taking you out. :aok
I'm completely with ya' on this doctrine, even if I forget to practice it all the time. However, it seems that this is exactly a list of things that would make you a "limp-wristed wussy" in some very vocal (err, multi-thousand posts) people's lists. See some other recent posts for exact identities. Stay higher = alt monkey, stay faster = running wuss, pick your fights = limp wristed, 20 second engagement rule = running wuss also. But hey, sounds to me like you're pretty darn successful. Wish I had the discipline to employ these 5 things ALL the time. BTW, nice k/d ratio. :aok
Edit: Oh, yeah, didn't want to hijack a post. I've never really had that much of a problem with La7s. I take the time to fly every plane a few times. Learn it's strengths and weaknesses. La7 makes you over confident. La7 is not a wonder plane. La7 is always vulnerable to someone coming into a fight from above.
-
this is exactly a list of things that would make you a "limp-wristed wussy" in some very vocal (err, multi-thousand posts) people's lists.
Yeppers, I sure would be called that, :rofl
I believe it was Oswald Boelke who said "Always from above, seldom at the same level, never from below."
If anyone would really read Robert Shaws book on aerial combat. Well he talks about SA, i.e. not engaging without advantaqe, gang banging tactics (loose Duece, Valencias Mowing Machine, Thatch Weave), running like a scalded dog if you have to, shooting only when sure of the target... That book is the defacto bible of ACM.
I will gang bang, vulch, cherry pick, back stab, runstang, HO, drown kittens, and club baby seals... :rofl
Call me any name you want, guns are the only thing I really listen to :D
BTW Sir, you sound like you are not far from total enlightenment :aok
But the thread was on how to beat a LA7 with an inferior airplane. Well you don't do it following Code Duello. You act like a razor toting snake in the grass. That is how ACM really works.
Honor is not relavant to ACM :)
-
You act like a razor toting snake in the grass. That is how ACM really works.
YUp:aok
-
I told you guys the la7 PWN3S everything... all except the p40!:p
-
AKFokerFoder!
Amen Brother!!
If more people would go by that philosophy there would be alot less bitc......complai...........e xpressing of concern!
Just last night some N1K2 dweeb called me names for running in my Spit14. I was low on ammo and no fuel.
Some people just dont get it!
-
Originally posted by Karnak
How do you deal with an aircraft that is faster, better climbing, tighter turning, faster accelerating and better rolling?
Get out of the Ki-84 and fly a 109G10?
-
Originally posted by 4510
Get out of the Ki-84 and fly a 109G10?
no!
-
Originally posted by Karnak
no!
Well ya can't blame a guy for trying ! :rolleyes:
-
One last waste of bandwidth, couldnt find a Ki but found a spitty...I ended up digging a pool in the woods pushing a shot to far but it will give you some idea of what I think might be happening....I'm not out turning him anywhere but i'm out of plane almost the whole fight and managing both relative E state and my powerband....basically establish angles and create the neg E state I need on merge...he's then fighting me with to much E. I get two nice shots but cant convert....we then hit that drex thingie "convergence of E state where I have to switch to E fighting....spiral climb him and switch back to angles...ding him again...reconvert to E fighting....switch back miss my 1st shot and get greedy....basically I've got the E sucked out of him but pushed it a but farther than I should have considering I dont know the FM at all well....basically should of gone vertical and repeated...he wasnt going anywhere. Basically the same fight I'd fly vs a KI cept I'd be more careful on the verticals....
http://www.azhacker.com/images/film42.ahf
From what I saw/felt there a la-7 will not turn with a spit for long...
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I... Below could be called Dicta FokerFoder, but I stole all the ideas reading Robert Shaw and Dicta Boelke... /B]
FokerFoder.
This community needs much more of this kind of insight. In days of old when Knights were ... uh ... B-landers ... just about everyone who played read Shaw, Boelke, Galland, and so on.
Anyway ... I took the Ki-84 on a few test hops and the biggest problem I had with La-7's was waiting for the fight to slow down so I could cut inside of them. Once low and slow it didn't take long to finish the deed - no flaps needed. Not sure of the skill level of the La-7 drivers I ran into - since they tried to flat-turn with me - but that's what I wanted to check out anyway.
The La-7 could disengage at will with a well timed reversal but a straight extend started below 150 mph the Ki was able to stay close long enough to land cannon hits - there's like a 5-10 second window before the La-7's grunt kicks in and leaves the Ki-84 in the dust.
The '84 really felt at ease working the vertical too. I was more worried going downhill because of the controls losing authority than spinning or stalling out at the top.
-
Originally posted by 4510
Well ya can't blame a guy for trying ! :rolleyes:
Heh. I've done some time in the Bf109G-10 when I first started AH.
It's not really my cup of tea. I like the Bf109G-6 better actually.
Thanks humble.
I watched the first film earlier.
-
Those of you systematically posting "killing La7s with plane X is easy" think about how easy would be to kill plane X with La7. And about the funny stats, stop vulching La7s and lets see what kind or ratio the La7 would have. As far as I remember, La7s and spits were the very most vulched rides.
-
Originally posted by Zanth
"The La-7 simply out turns the Ki-84, even once the Ki-84 gets it's flaps out. "
I humbly (however strongly) disagree. In my experience the KI84 well out classes either the la7 and la5. Just my opinion, but overall stats (and even my sorry numbers) seem to support this.
The La-7 has 237 kills and has been killed 250 times against the Ki-84-Ia.
The La-5FN has 32 kills and has been killed 53 times against the Ki-84-Ia.
ZANTH Sorry numbers can not tell true story in AH. You have no clue how many la7's were vulched at capped base or vise versa. plane numbers just Don't show true facts, I've seen guys up vulched bases in every plane in game over and over. To me it seems la7 is plane of choice if vulched base. Just like b24s now SEEN a newbie Bishop take off 50 times in b24s at capped base. so imagine how b24 's deaths look. You know he's not only guy upping bombers over and over vulched base. ?And everyone knows most la7's will leave if they lose adv. where as ki84 can be caught by troops on the ground :)
-
Originally posted by humble
I've got no clue if you've even bothered to look at any of these...let me know if i'm just wasting bandwidth....
Humble, whether he's using them or not -- thanks for the post and comments!! I try to get all this stuff that i can....next best thing to tutoring for moving past basic acm to the more advanced stuff. Thanks!
-
Karnak...
Hope they help, if nothing else it'll give you an idea of 1 particular style of flying. Going back to the original question thats really where the answer lies. As a general rule superior planes tend to breed inferior pilots since the pilot relies on the plane to do the work for him. Thats why some planes get the "dweeb" tag...basically all spit,lala,pony drivers get "discounted"...at the same time all three are formidable planes when flown correctly.
If you look at the clips I put up...none of the things I do are plane dependent. Everything occurs well within the performance envelope of the plane....so I'm happy in anything with reasonable vis,roll & turn. Now if I'm in a plane like the lala I'll use it...all the ki rev are angles....while the Lala is energy driven. In the ki-61 I'm tightening the fight since I have no where to go and no "better" option. In the lala I'm slowing the con down so I can then E fight him (since I cant kill the bugger with my gunnery sooner).
I tend to lose to pilots who combine equal or better vis and tactics with flying to the "edge". It's rarely plane dependent...I keep feeling your looking for the "edge" in the plane when its in the pilot.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
Heh. I've done some time in the Bf109G-10 when I first started AH.
It's not really my cup of tea. I like the Bf109G-6 better actually.
I liked the 109F and the 109G-10. Favored the G-10 because in the MA and its inevitable gang deal... the G-10 could dictate its own terms as far as a fight was concerned. (as long as you didn't stay too long and let too many higher E people arrive)
The 109F was fun working along the fringes or in a small relatively even furball. But out alone in the 109F .... too easy to be run down and ganged. (same for the G6)
-
Originally posted by rod367th
.....where as ki84 can be caught by troops on the ground :)
:lol :lol
-
La7 is a dweeb plane, been said many times.. It combines the best of the top aircraft into one package (not including fuel but manage your throttle and youll go far)
Anyone who flys it and claims they have skill is using the thing as a crutch... in ah1 in a turn fight it couldn't hang with spits or even a mustang.. now it can turn with both in AH2. (mannaged throttle of course)
Simple solution; dweeb out and fight fire with fire..(g10 is good matchup but you have issues..) or suffer inferior proformance from another aircraft.. Not saying la7 is unbeatable..(equal pilots though my money is on the la7) the only time i feel in control of a la7 fight is when im in latewar dweebness.. (f4u4 {da best}, mustang.., g10... etc.....) anything slower than 340 deck speed is asking for trouble against the la7.. (some may claim success against it in slower but thats la7 pilot incompetence with me at the helm you wouldn't win.. I'll bet paypal money on it..)
dweebmobile should be perked plain and simple.. no other plane unbalances the arena the way that plane can.. if you meet a horde of them vs non la7 horde the la7 horde will win.. dont take my word for it goto the MA and see for yourself....
DoctorYo
-
I have never seen a horde of La7's............ rarely do I see more than 2 at once...............
It must be a time zone thing.............
nikis and spits however...................
but nothing has changed .................the La7 is the superlative "street fighter" low down..........in carefull hands it fights safe and dirty and the 3 cannon version has the punch for the quick kill via a snapshot.
Slow............... the La7 is no where near as stable a gun platform as the Ki84. But if the La7 pilot has allowed himself to be suckered into a slow fight then he deserves the outcome.
All in all the La7 is one hell of a sweet ride once you come to terms with having to rtb for fuel half way thru any fight other than base defence.
-
An La-7 is simply not going to turn with a spitty YO...period. Now you did hit the nail on the head...you can manage relative E and angles to your advantage. All in all the lala is the most complete low alt fighter in the game but it's not overwhelming except when flown to its full capabilities. Yak and "B" pony both excellent la-7 killers....good spit IX driver will give lala a run for his money as well. Still 80% pilot, 20% plane...
-
Just never expect ur plane will do the wonder.
ur the man and la7s'are flown by dweebs and are very beatable as long as they don't run and ho u in the end.
:)
it's their lame flying style that only irritates
but hell i only fly p38
-
THe Ki84 has the ability to take off with 50% fuel loaded with 2x DTs or 1000#'s of bombs at +/-60 mph and initially climb out at around 3k fpm. This, not speed, is the KI94s special power.
Just before the KI84 came out I had been playing in Spit 1 a lot. Just my own personal observation of the KI84 is that with the flaps out the Ki84 feels like a Spit 1 that can climb.
If you get a good advantage on a LA7, he will typically dive and run. If an engagement goes bad while in a KI84, you can climb. This is the difference for me. In KI84 I will not attempt to chase the LA7's, this is not the fight I want. 400 yards or so out I climb and hard. Hopefully they come back, and they almost always do.
Anyway I have fun with the KI84. It is a pleasure to fly and die in - Love it hate it, it's your quarter.
-
The La-7 dominates all other non-perked rides in the low-to-medium altitude regime. At high alt it is not the best, but still good (~410 mph at 20k). An La-7 can turn with a Spit9, and even outturn it by using flaps, outrun everything, out-accelerate everything, and out-climb everything at low alt. It has no serious handling vices, and stalls gently with easy spin recovery.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
The La-7 dominates all other non-perked rides in the low-to-medium altitude regime. At high alt it is not the best, but still good (~410 mph at 20k). An La-7 can turn with a Spit9, and even outturn it by using flaps, outrun everything, out-accelerate everything, and out-climb everything at low alt. It has no serious handling vices, and stalls gently with easy spin recovery.
Agree with everything but the out turn the spitty part...simply not gonna happen. Now the flip side is it has limited vis and for me at least somewhat poor ballistics. To kill someone you need to get inside 400 yds...so you put them inside 400 yds...your not gonna buzz bomb a good pilot and kill him all that often (even if ya ding him up a bit). Eventually you got to go down in the weeds with him and finish him off. The bottom line is pretty simple....there are no dominant planes...just dominant pilots.
-
humble,
I watched your films. Thay're basically tactics that I used in the Mossie, though you're better at them than I am.
I saw that auger coming at the end of the second film. I've done that too many times.;)
That isn't what it looks like the La-7s are doing to my Ki-84 though. You were moving out of plane with those Spits whereas the La-7s I'm dealing with look like they are staying in plane with me.
What I'm starting to think is that the turn rates are really close and a fueled Ki-84 will be out turned by an La-7 whereas a Ki-84 with 50% or less fuel will out turn the La-7. I almost always take 100% fuel with the Ki-84 otherwise it is most likely a one way trip.
Zanth,
Remember that the La-7 out climbs the Ki-84 by more than 500fpm.
GScholz,
That about sums up my opinion of the La-7. It is a free, better manuvering, lighter gunned Tempest Mk V.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
Remember that the La-7 out climbs the Ki-84 by more than 500fpm.
Sure but how well does la7 climb at 60 mph? (i.e. stability at slow speed) That makes a huge difference.
-
Originally posted by Widewing
Let's review the two fighters side by side.
If and when HTC fixes the Ki-84 problems associated with speeds above 200 mph, the Hayate will become a far more dangerous adversary for the La-7. For now, it must drag the fight down to low speeds to win against a good stick. Moreover, a good stick will disengage before that happens. Fo rnow, you will have to depend on the williness of an La-7 fighter to mix it up.
My regards,
Widewing
Appreciate the info Widewing. I'm going to cut and paste it to my growing text file of important info on planes in AH. Understand, my observations were made based on my actual experiences flying against the La-7 while in the Ki-84. That has been limited to once so far. Plus some messing around in the TA and offline.
If I made it sound as though I was stating a fact then I said it wrong. Many things can affect climb rate. I dont know what his fuel loadout was, how many Gz he pulled, etc. All I know is that it lasted a long time, it was consistent, and it was noticeable. If he had run I never would have caught him. If we had stayed in the turns, who knows? We didnt stay in it more than a couple of revolutions before he would dive out for separation.
-
Originally posted by Zanth
Sure but how well does la7 climb at 60 mph?
Same as the Ki-84, it doesn't.;)
Seriously though, if you need to rely on the La-7 driver being dumb enough to get the speed down to 120mph you are at a titanic disadvantage.
-
Originally posted by MANDO
Those of you systematically posting "killing La7s with plane X is easy" think about how easy would be to kill plane X with La7. And about the funny stats, stop vulching La7s and lets see what kind or ratio the La7 would have. As far as I remember, La7s and spits were the very most vulched rides.
Hola Mandoble.
¿Es tan malo el Ki 84 cómo lo pintan por aquí?
Por lo que leo, es inferio al Niki. Y en principio yo esperaba básicamente un niki más rápido.
Tengo un GRAN GRAN BIG BIG GRAN GRAN mono de AH.
Un saludo, mr Dora dweeb.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
Same as the Ki-84, it doesn't.;)
You will be quite surprised then, take off with the flaps full out and prepare to be amazed.
-
Originally posted by DarkglamJG52
Hola Mandoble.
¿Es tan malo el Ki 84 cómo lo pintan por aquí?
Por lo que leo, es inferio al Niki. Y en principio yo esperaba básicamente un niki más rápido.
Tengo un GRAN GRAN BIG BIG GRAN GRAN mono de AH.
Un saludo, mr Dora dweeb.
I was bored - This is how it comes out of translator (http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com)
Is so bad the Ki 84 how paint it this way? Reason why I read, is inferio to Niki. And in principle I waited for basically faster Niki. I have a GREAT GREAT BIG BIG GREAT GREAT monkey of AH. A greeting, mr Dora dweeb.
-
I've gotten the Ki to vertical nose up at zero MPH....I cant to it in any other plane....even 38.
-
outurned la7's many times in my p38
turning ability seem to suk that's mine point of view (within the p38)
anyway i think their microscopic size is the biggest problem.
i miss them very much after i turn on it's tail
just make em bigger
-
Humble let me clarify the outturning the spit 9, In a sense you are correct the spit9's sustained turn is slightly better than the la7.. But when i'm explaining outturning the spit in the above post im using out-radii as like a given in geometry..(including in the verticle; yoyo's immel's lag induced barrels etc..) the spitfire is a excellent aircraft at e retention.. the la7 when powered down is a excellent aircraft at blowing energy.. when combined a competent la7 will chop throttle and out radii a spit even if the spitfire chops his throttle also.... then the spit will maintain better lowspeed turn than the la7...
that window of say being out radii'ed to the point of outturning the la7 through sustained turn is larger than most think.. (5-10 secs on average..)
say you blow it..(as the la7) blow the shot.. then you just exit creating the largest amount of degrees of angle the opponent must pull to get his nose on you... this should be a lazy manuever to prohibit e loss during the la7's acceleration period.. using the above tactics there is little to no skill involved and little to nothing the spitfire can do to counter the superiority of the la7..
Turn rates while important imo are not as important as acceleration and ebleed attributes.. especially when combined on the same aircraft.. (tiffies/temp..{bleed/accel} p38s {bleed} la7's g10 etc.. get the picture..)
Some claim that the yak is great at fighting the la7, well guess what i agree.. the yak has one the best e bleed attributes in the game and then can re-accelerate out of it.. hence making it a stalemate for the la7 (insert whatever aircraft.. exception maybe tiffie/tempest which own the ebleed acceleration system.) in the short term.. (acceleration and firepower still go to the la7..)
This is also true with the p38... the p38 most of the time out radii's its enemies as opposed to out turning them.. Except during highspeed the p38 is the radii master.. pop flaps for desired circle size.. very nice..
Some claim pilot and the not the plane but imo the ratio is like 30% pilot 70% plane....
DoctorYo
-
YO....
The better the pilot the more he'll get out of a given ride....at some point plane capability is the limiting factor so it's obviously a variable scale. This goes back to the "use the right tool for the job" theory of air combat. Basically your just using a hammer to pound nails...the other guy can only win if he gets you to hit your thumb instead:D ...
Now when your facing a master carpenter he's seen most of the tricks and his thumb has the flat spots to show it....
I dont have a clue where on the scale Karnak sits, so I dont know what his thumb looks like. I know yours looks like a waffle:)....
-
Originally posted by humble
I dont have a clue where on the scale Karnak sits, so I dont know what his thumb looks like. I know yours looks like a waffle:)....
Apparently a lot worse off for the absence.
I was never the top dog, but I was good enough to manage a 31 kill streak in the Mosquito before colliding with a Spitfire that was supposed to be #32.
It is entirely possible that my break coupled with the Ki-84's inferior performance is what is causing me so much trouble.
I got used to an aircraft that didn't have any high speed handling issues and moved to one that has massive high speed handling issues.
-
Karnak...
What confuses me is the mossie....basically its semi useless. I couldnt do any of the stuff I do in a mossie....simply not capable of it. It doesnt handle as well, roll as well and doesnt have the vis to maintain views. Flying a mossie bout like dogfighting an A-20 to me....110 much better to me. Doesnt mean you cant win in it but you need a much more favorable enviornment. I cant recall ever being reversed in a mossie...now I've been shot to tooth picks by em...and a mossie with alt & E on you is a tough nut to crack but thats different.
To me the mossie is a pure E fighter, so you cant have done what I did since those are all neg E encounters (cept the lala clips) maybe the pony vs yak also....
It might be the same BFM....but somehow the setting/intent has to be different...you cant rev on a nikki or la-7 like that on the deck and come out ahead (at least I dont think you can).
I'd love to see a few clips if you've got em....
I cant think of two more different planes than mossie and Ki-84 (as fighters)....totally different styles...like karate and Akido (sp?)
-
I'll definately give you that. Reversing on somebody in the Mossie is dang hard. I've done it, but you REALLY have to fly it to the edge. I've beaten La-7s and P-51Ds that had the E on me, I've even managed to out turn an La-7 in it.
It's a better fighter than the Bf110G-2 due to it's better acceleration, speed and high speed handling.
However, if you really get in trouble it has no way of pulling you out unless you have room to dive and your oponent isn't faster than you. Not a likely combination in AH2.
-
I think you've evolved a style based on the mossie, you really should spend a tour in the P40-b or similiar plane to put your system in balance ... not joking.
Out of curiosity I pulled up the lala stats....
14-16 vs the Ki-61:aok
1-5 vs the P40-b :aok :aok
13-15 vs the P40-e
150-139 vs the tiffie
59-62 vs 190-A5
39-51 vs F4U-1
1-6 vs C202:aok :aok :aok
18-21 vs 109-G2
Basically these are all primarily "uber pilot" rides....the plane might not beperked but the pilot should be (least some of em).
So while the lala can dominate the better planes it isnt gonna scramble to many eggs amongst the better pilots...
-
What, no A8??? I am heartbroken :(
The LA7 is 88-66 so far this tour against the 190A8.
It was 516 to 461 last tour.
Based on that performance you gave, we should consider perking the C202, F4u-1 and 190A5 when we perk the LA7 ;)
-
,
Originally posted by Zanth
I was bored - This is how it comes out of translator (http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com)
Is so bad the Ki 84 how paint it this way? Reason why I read, is inferio to Niki. And in principle I waited for basically faster Niki. I have a GREAT GREAT BIG BIG GREAT GREAT monkey of AH. A greeting, mr Dora dweeb.
Translations of spanish slang to english or english slang to spanish are too funny.
Damned context. "Mono" is like "go cold turkey" this time. I am going cold turkey, because now I can't play AH. Be an (alt) monkey of AH is an other think.
Next year I learn english.
:aok
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
What, no A8??? I am heartbroken :(
The LA7 is 88-66 so far this tour against the 190A8.
It was 516 to 461 last tour.
Based on that performance you gave, we should consider perking the C202, F4u-1 and 190A5 when we perk the LA7 ;)
hehe....
Didnt mean to leave ya out buddy.....I really dont know if the A8 is a plane preferred by "uber sticks" (cept you of course)...used alot as a buff hunter etc. Left the G-10 and D-9 out as well....really was sticking to the 42-43 "mid war rides" (yes I know the Ki is a 44 ride)....
-
I think you guys are writing off the mossie too easily. I found that the best way to be successful in a mossie is to be aggressive. It turns well, but only for the 1st couple. Against a n1k or spit i can usualy get off a snap shot straight after the merge- which is all the mossie needs. It also turns well enough to follow a con in lag pursuit and wait for him straighten out/reverse. It's massive E bleed is also useful for forcing cons to overshoot. The la7 is without a doubt the toughest con to fight against in a mossie though.
I do love the mossie.:)
-
Those of you systematically posting "killing La7s with plane X is easy" think about how easy would be to kill plane X with La7. And about the funny stats, stop vulching La7s and lets see what kind or ratio the La7 would have. As far as I remember, La7s and spits were the very most vulched rides.
I hope you don't include me as saying the LA7 is easy to kill in a 1 on 1 fight with a 190A8.
But when in the MA do you get 1 on 1 fights? Very rarely for me anyways. The MA is a bar room brawl, not a duel of gentlemen at dawn.
The MA requires management of a high energy state at almost all times if you want to fly home rather than walk home with your nuts in a paper bag.
The LA7 (like any plane) can be attacked successfully in a non-vulching situation. Stay high, stay fast, don't turn, and disengage if you are losing your high e state.
Translation:
Stay High = alt monkey
Stay fast = cherry picker
Don't turn = hell it's a 190, they don't turn
Disengage = Run-90 dweeb
That's how I fight anyways :)
-
Originally posted by DarkglamJG52
Hola Mandoble.
¿Es tan malo el Ki 84 cómo lo pintan por aquí?
Por lo que leo, es inferio al Niki. Y en principio yo esperaba básicamente un niki más rápido.
Tengo un GRAN GRAN BIG BIG GRAN GRAN mono de AH.
Un saludo, mr Dora dweeb.
Hola Dark,
ni idea a tu pregunta, hace casi dos meses que no vuelo, y no tengo ningún mono ;)
Saludos.
-
AKFokerFoder, if you use the same techniques while flying La7 you will, more than problably, have far better results that with any 190, or almost any other ride.
-
Originally posted by MANDO
Hola Dark,
ni idea a tu pregunta, hace casi dos meses que no vuelo, y no tengo ningún mono ;)
Saludos.
:D Yo es que ni estoy mono, ni soy mono, pero tengo el mono. :aok
Un saludo.
-
Originally posted by MANDO
AKFokerFoder, if you use the same techniques while flying La7 you will, more than problably, have far better results that with any 190, or almost any other ride.
Yeah but then he'd have no class ! :)
-
Bolke's Dicta works for AH. I am not sure it makes for a fun game though. Fighter Combat by Shaw does not.
Shaw provides guidance and principles for getting on another planes six using ACM. That's not where you want to be in AH. As such, Shaw is not of much help and following that book will quickly get you killed! ACM applies in AH but the best guns solution is not a tracking shot. A front quarter shot (rather than rear) is what you want. That makes for different preferred maneuvering such as horizontal scissors and reversals.
It took me a long time (not everyone is smart about everything) to realize that AH has extraordinary detail in some areas, but is bass ackwards in others. One naturally tends to think (and the rhetoric on these boards reinforces that) with all this detail the game is realistic! I get the impression AH wants to set itself apart from warbirds or air warrior by these differences. It's all a matter of perspective in what makes the game fun for you!
Regards,
Malta
-
Actually the "best" shot is the plane form canopy shot...both in AH and real life. Those of you who are history buff's will know the german pilot who died in Med (chute failed). He was easily best pilot on anyside in any war. Had an amazing kill/sortie number. Also was probably the best ever in gunnery...shells/kill was 17 (including the 7.7mm mg's)...other pilots wouls comment that they could see the shells "walk" across the canopy on all his kills.
-
you think of Hans-Joachim Marseilles ?
-
yup...
The Germans were very meticulous in filing combat reports with all relevant data to include time of battle, area of operation, opposition encountered, as well as an in-depth armorers report. At the end of a mission, the armorers would count the number of bullets and cannon shells expended during the fight. Marseille would often average an astonishing 15 bullets required per victory, and this with a combat resulting in his downing of several allied aircraft. No other German pilot was close to Marseille in this area....
....1997 will mark the 55th anniversary of the death of Hans-Joachim Marseille, arguably the greatest of all World War II fighter pilots. With the coming of the anniversary, the debate as to just how great the young Berliner was will certainly continue to rage within historical aviation circles.
The basis of the debate stems from Marseille's actual, yet almost mythical, combat record in North Africa. He was credited with destroying 158 Allied aircraft, all but seven of those within an intense eighteen month period in the desert. All but four of his victories were against fighter aircraft, and all were against pilots of the western nations. No other pilot destroyed as many aircraft on the Western Front as did Marseille. During this same period, although shot down several times himself, Marseille escaped death from the angry guns of Allied pilots in over 388 combat missions. Twenty-nine other German pilots would go on to score more victories than Marseille, however, those pilots scored the majority of their victories against Russian opponents on the Eastern Front.....
His movements were so fast that it was common for the unsuspecting allied pilots to think they were under attack by a large formation of aircraft. On 15 September, 1942, for example, Marseille destroyed 7 Australian fighter aircraft within an eleven minute period and on 17 June, 1942, Marseille destroyed six aircraft within a seven minute period....
Victories Date Times of Victories
88 thru 91 15 Jun 42 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905
92 thru 95 16 Jun 42 1902, 1910, 1911, 1913
96 thru 101 17 Jun 42 1202, 1204, 1205, 1208, 1209, 1212
105 thru 108 01 Sep 42 0828, 0830, 0833, 0839*
109 thru 116 01 Sep 42 1055, 1056, 1058, 1059, 1101, 1102,
1103, 1105*
117 thru 121 01 Sep 42 1846, 1847, 1848, 1849, 1853*
127 thru 132 03 Sep 42 0820, 0823, 0829, 1608, 1610, c.1611
137 thru 140 06 Sep 42 1803, 1813, 1814, 1820
145 thru 151 15 Sep 42 1751, 1753, 1755, 1757, 1759, 1800,
1802
152 thru 158 26 Sep 42 0910, 0913, 0915, unk, 1656, 1659,
1715
* Indicates a total of 17 aircraft shot
down on this day.
-
He also claimed to have shot down more aircraft than were operating in the area on at least one occasion.
Count me in the "He was an overrated liar" category.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
He also claimed to have shot down more aircraft than were operating in the area on at least one occasion.
Count me in the "He was an overrated liar" category.
Much of the debate and refusal to substantiate Marseille's combat record originates from one day of furious air combat on 1 September, 1942 in which he claimed to have destroyed 17 aircraft in three sorties. Not only did Marseille claim 17 aircraft, but he did it in a fashion that was unheard of at the time. His victims were shot out of the sky in such a rapid fashion that many Allied critics still refuse to believe Marseille's claims as fact. But it is precisely the speed and fury involved with these kills that has been the center of the Marseille debate for the past half century. For years, many British historians and militarists refused to admit that they had lost any aircraft that day in North Africa. Careful review of records however do show that the British did lose more than 17 aircraft that day, and in the area that Marseille operated. The British simply refused to believe, as many do today, that any German pilot was capable of such rapid destruction of RAF hardware.
"Yeah, everybody knew nobody could cope with him. Nobody could do the same. Some of the pilots tried it like Stahlschmidt, myself, and Rödel. He, he was an artist. Marseille was an artist." Using his hands to illustrate. "He was up here and the rest of us were down here somewhere." Friedrich Körner, 36 victories, Knight's Cross winner, 2 JG-27
Through complete and intense research of many of Marseille's claims in the desert, it can be argued that he may have indeed been guilty of some over claiming towards the end of his short and prolific career. Not that it was intentional but rather as matter of circumstances of the circus like environment his character brought to the unit. Everyone expected him to be successful on a daily basis and achieve more and more glory for their unit. Marseille in turn, certainly influenced by their enthusiasm, was so sure of his own abilities that he would sometimes fire at the enemy, break off the attack and seek the next victim without confirming the destruction of the previous target. A large percent of his victims did indeed crash land in the desert or limp back home as opposed to being utterly blown out of the sky. Regardless, even with the possibility of slight over claiming due to youthful bravado and a twinge of wishful thinking, a conservative estimate of over 130 definite, indisputable victories, equivalent to approximately ten percent of all aircraft claimed by Luftwaffe pilots in North Africa, is still a testament to this man's achievements.
Facts speak for themselfs, regardless of what you choose to believe (or not) the man was an amazingly good combat pilot. Overclaiming wasn't restricted to any one side....as a historical footnote most unbiased "experts" feel the germanshad the harshest scoring system for confirming kills and placed a greater emphisis on the "numbers". As an example every other nation considered 5 victories the "magic" number...germans needed 10 kills to lay claim to the "expertian".
-
The 'best' shot in actual combat is the one that downs the enemy airplane while subjecting yours to the least risk. I believe that is what all the pilots who survived combat say. A canopy shot is far from meeting that description.
I have had the privilege on several occasions to talk after dinner with Ret. Gen Brady who was a WW2 B24 gunner. From his experience, the Japanese fighters always used the HO tactic on bombers because that was where they were least defended. In the pacific there were some kamakzi's, but he never saw one.
Whenever the B24 gunners saw a plane aligning to attack, they would open up at max+ range. The tracer fire always discouraged enemy planes from attacking. Of course, you cannot load all tracers or you burn the MG barrel up.
Regards,
Malta
-
A front quarter shot (rather than rear) is what you want
Thats the riskiest shot you can have...air combat is about controlling the fight. Proper BFM will enable you to engage and apply proper ACM to establish a rear hemisphere position with regard to the con....that position should then never be disgarded unless you elect to disengage. No competent fighter pilot is ever going to elect any type of front quarter fight.
Also the purpose of a scissor is to force the opposing fighter out in front so you can shoot him in the prettythang...not to setup any type of a face shot....
-
Originally posted by MANDO
AKFokerFoder, if you use the same techniques while flying La7 you will, more than problably, have far better results that with any 190, or almost any other ride.
Exactly!
That is how I fight with any airplane, even a TNB. Just because you fly a T N B plane doesn’t mean you throw energy management out the window. But many do throw e management out, hop in a Spit or Hurri and then quickly get in a situation where they are lower and slower than their attackers, and then they whine that they are being gang banged and vulched.
The LA7 is a superior ride, probably the best non-perk ride in the arena, with (IMHO) the Pony D being a very close second. I could in all probability have a much better K/D with the LA7. But with the ENY limitations (buncha kee-rap) on game play, I have chosen a ride that I feel I can fly almost any time, that can be flown competitively in the arcade furballing mad house that is the main arena. For me that turns out to be the 190A8. My philosophy is that it is better to fly a lesser plane to the edge of it’s performance all the time, than fly uber planes until getting screwed by ENY limitations. Then I would find myself in a lesser plane and not know the performance edge.
Energy = Life :)
-
humble,
Are you disagreeing that a frontal shot has preference in AH? Or, are you taking a partial sentence out of context and making an incoherent statement about it? I missed your point.
Regards,
Malta
-
That is how I fight with any airplane, even a TNB. Just because you fly a T N B plane doesn’t mean you throw energy management out the window. But many do throw e management out, hop in a Spit or Hurri and then quickly get in a situation where they are lower and slower than their attackers, and then they whine that they are being gang banged and vulched
hehe thats me....cept I'm doing it in a KI-61 (well lala last 2 days)...afterall someone has to go in and get them suckers milling around for ya:aok
-
Originally posted by stanton
That's not where you want to be in AH. As such, Shaw is not of much help and following that book will quickly get you killed!
I musta read a different book. :rolleyes:
)...afterall someone has to go in and get them suckers milling around for ya
Humble, I do appreciate the setups you give me :aok
Sortta like clubbing seal pups on the ice :rofl
-
There is some contention to my statements? And your point being? Is there an argument? It looks like the answer is no.
Reading a book and understanding the contents are very different.
Regards,
Malta:rofl
-
Originally posted by stantond
humble,
Are you disagreeing that a frontal shot has preference in AH? Or, are you taking a partial sentence out of context and making an incoherent statement about it? I missed your point.
Regards,
Malta
Hmmm seemed pretty coherent to me....but I'll simplify it for you.
Given a choice only a moron elects a front quarter shot vs a rear quarter shot...
Thats not ment as an insult or an attack...just a statement of common sense. Again the ideal "shot" in air combat is a "plane form" shot. I'll post a clip or still shot to highlight it when I get home....
Now a front quarter shot beats no shot hands down...just not a good 1st choice...
-
http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/totalstats.php?sortby=kill_sort
It's the spits that seem to be taking the most beating with the new planes?
-
Originally posted by stantond
There is some contention to my statements? And your point being? Is there an argument? It looks like the answer is no.
Reading a book and understanding the contents are very different.
Regards,
Malta:rofl
Obviously you read Shaw...but you didn't understand the contents very well. Look at the pictures....they help a bit:rofl
-
humble,
So, there is contention with my statement but no arguement other that 'no, its you who don't understand'. I did not pay to come here for an argument. If you don't agree that is fine. I never expected being personally attacked though. Are you an Arabian Knight too? That might explain some things.
I must have seriously struck a nerve here! I will elaborate on what I was saying again. Shaw's book is based on a rear quarter shot as the goal. Aces High does not give that shot preference. Frontal shots have precidence in AH.
That statement makes the guidelines and rules in Shaw not applicable. You can disagree, but stop taking my statements out of context and personally attacking me! That makes me very angry. :mad:
I never really had much reason to visit these boards, but I may have found a couple.
Regards,
Malta
-
Originally posted by stantond
Frontal shots have precidence in AH.
I don't have any data to back me up, but my in my gut I disagree with this statement. The strongest position is still the 6 shot, especially with MY gunnery.
It has been a long time since I read shaws, but I do seem to remember a good portion was more relative to getting a missle shot solution.
( http://www.netaces.org is a great resource. The stuff I learned on is on there from Air Warrior (Rockman's lectures MAstering the Merge )(http://www.netaces.org/genmerges/merges4.gif)
If I understand you though, this is what a perfect shot looks like for you? (ANd I would say you shouldnt even shoot here)
-
plan view cockpit shot always gets the best results for me..........
I almost want the guy to break turn....... true 6 shots end up using much more precious Svak/B20 ammo
-
Originally posted by Tilt
plan view cockpit shot always gets the best results for me..........
I almost want the guy to break turn....... true 6 shots end up using much more precious Svak/B20 ammo
Those are good but with normal planes they are also alot harder for me to line up, and if you miss or only wound him you got to re-engage all over again for a new shot. (If he doesnt reverse on ya or someone else kills him first that is)
-
Same here. if I am on your 6 at d200 to d400 you proly safe. You turn you die. I think its because any shot other than 6 or 12, gives you a biger target to shoot at.
-
Shaw's book is based on a rear quarter shot as the goal. Aces High does not give that shot preference. Frontal shots have precidence in AH.
I read thru all your previous posts and can only find your reasons for "Frontal shots have precidence in AH" in the following ...
A front quarter shot (rather than rear) is what you want. That makes for different preferred maneuvering such as horizontal scissors and reversals.
If "horizontal scissors and reversals" is your reasoning for preferring frontal shots, then so be it ... for you. I would much prefer what humble has described ("plane form" shot in the rear quarter area) as to where I want to be when trying to gain a guns solution on the enemy.
If I am anywhere in this vicinity (rear quarter) chances are very very good that you will die and the chances of you getting a guns solution on me is very very remote.
Trying to take the front quarter shot has low probability and, if missed, causing a reversal after the miss is not an easy task.
-
That statement makes the guidelines and rules in Shaw not applicable. You can disagree, but stop taking my statements out of context and personally attacking me! That makes me very angry.
1st I'm not personally attacking you, I'm calling your blanket statement that front quarter shots take presidence totally wrong...there is a difference. Your the one that "attacked" someone else. If your saying you cant hit someone from dead six thats a gunnery problem...why you prefer a "front quarter" to a "rear quarter" shot is beyond me. To go further and say "Shaw is wrong {in AH} is comically absurd. It's your ideas I'm attacking not you....so grow up.
-
Originaly quoted by stantond
Reading a book and understanding the contents are very different.
And studying a book is different than reading a book. I studied Shaw, it opened up all kinds of tactics, energy management, angles, principles of ACM. Shaw is used to teach real fighter pilots, and widely embraced by the Sim community
Originaly quoted by stantond
Shaw's book is based on a rear quarter shot as the goal. Aces High does not give that shot preference. Frontal shots have precidence in AH.
Shaws book is based on bringing your weapons system into an effective firing solution, and to survive before and after doing so. For a guns solution this often tends to be a 5 - 7 o'clock tracking shot. 11 - 1 snap shots can be quite deadly in both real life and in AH2.
If you would study Shaw, you would find out about what this thread started off to be; how to defeat a superior airplane. :aok
-
I have to concur with humble; attacking Shaws book (my acm/tactic bible) is pathetic... then again im biased to it.. but then again so are alot of people..
Shaws book is really a outstanding work of aircombat's past and present that every flight sim buff should read.. And i dont work for his publisher either.. yes you most likely will find good info out there just not all in one hardcover thats the kicker....
Even today I still skim through its pages for insight on various tactics...
Some of the crap you see in the main (jousting for example) would rarely happen on the battlefield due to one universal aspect.. FEAR... online you have none or little.. in real life you have alot...... so claiming that some of shaws excerpts from his book are not entirely applicable to HTC is a valid point..however, the basis of getting on someones six is still used today even by modern fighter pilots.. so claiming its moot or outdated is just plain wrong....
My prefered method of killing someone is still the saddle and then the shot...
yeah some in this game are good at high aspect angle shots (taki comes to mind..) and such but the easiest method of downing someone with least threat to yourself is the 6 shot.. nuff said...
No rebuttal
DoctorYo
-
Speaking of Shaw, I need to read his book. I have it, but I have never finished it.
Thanks for the reminder.
-
i never read shaw.
most of what i picked up i did on my own thru experience and then later found the appropriate terminology for whatever.
i also did some basic research about 2 years after i started flight sims - which is where i learned the terminology and stuff. pictures were very helpful.
maybe...
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I hope you don't include me as saying the LA7 is easy to kill in a 1 on 1 fight with a 190A8.
But when in the MA do you get 1 on 1 fights? Very rarely for me anyways. The MA is a bar room brawl, not a duel of gentlemen at dawn.
The MA requires management of a high energy state at almost all times if you want to fly home rather than walk home with your nuts in a paper bag.
The LA7 (like any plane) can be attacked successfully in a non-vulching situation. Stay high, stay fast, don't turn, and disengage if you are losing your high e state.
Translation:
Stay High = alt monkey
Stay fast = cherry picker
Don't turn = hell it's a 190, they don't turn
Disengage = Run-90 dweeb
That's how I fight anyways :)
How do you manage to stay awake at the stick ? ;)
-
How do you manage to stay awake at the stick ? ;)
Heh! :)
I consider myself to be a hunter. There is a certain quality I am looking for in a kill. Last month I was 3.5 kills per hour as a fighter. Not great by anymeans. But I don't find it boring. I am continually checking the 'dar, the dar bar, looking for low suspicious dots, and certainly checking my six, 'dar or no 'dar.
My favorite is to swoop down on an unsupecting bogey, come up on his low 6 at least 100mph faster, pull up just as the meter hits D200, and let him have the whole 9 yards. Since I don't use tracers, the bogeys first clue is when my 4 20mms and 2 50's are shredding his pretty plane :aok
Hell, 1 of those a night is worth the price of admission :D
Vulching is fun, but gets boring real fast if you do it a lot. :D
Also shooting a roped bogey is always a hoot :cool:
-
Bolke's Dicta works for AH. I am not sure it makes for a fun game though. Fighter Combat by Shaw does not.
Shaw provides guidance and principles for getting on another planes six using ACM. That's not where you want to be in AH. As such, Shaw is not of much help and following that book will quickly get you killed! ACM applies in AH but the best guns solution is not a tracking shot. A front quarter shot (rather than rear) is what you want. That makes for different preferred maneuvering such as horizontal scissors and reversals
It took me a long time (not everyone is smart about everything) to realize that AH has extraordinary detail in some areas, but is bass ackwards in others. One naturally tends to think (and the rhetoric on these boards reinforces that) with all this detail the game is realistic! I get the impression AH wants to set itself apart from warbirds or air warrior by these differences. It's all a matter of perspective in what makes the game fun for you! .
No attack on Shaw's book was intended!! As well, this is not an attack on AH!!
Shaw's book is the bible of air combat. What the above means is a lot of Shaw's tactic are suicidal in AH because of the preference (ease) of frontal snap shots. I have Shaw's 1985 edition and page 24 shows the envelope for a guns solution (Figure 1-4).
Shaw's tactics are intended to get you into the tracking area and use the limited front quarter shooting envelope (this is all 3D) to get a tactical advantage.
(http://members.cox.net/stantond/guns_envelope.jpg)
This guns effectiveness envelope is not the same as the envelope in AH. That changes the tactics Shaw discusses. The nme will HO you if you try some of Shaw's tactics. That same preference for frontal shots can be used to the attackers advantage with the scissors and reversals.
In AH, having that tactical advantage does not mean you will get the kill. If you are on someone's six and they know you are there, you will need them to turn and 'steady out' for a deflection shot (unless you have a 20mm). That is not necessary for a front quarter shot.
But... don't believe me!! Try them out for yourself! I also "saddle up" on the tracking shot but its not the best way to play the game, IMO.
That said, there is no reason Shaw has to be applied to AH. I never said it must be. The game has been going on since 1999 this way.
Malta
-
Originally posted by Shane
i never read shaw.
most of what i picked up i did on my own thru experience and then later found the appropriate terminology for whatever.
i also did some basic research about 2 years after i started flight sims - which is where i learned the terminology and stuff. pictures were very helpful.
maybe...
:D I got a Shaw pelt in AW.... mano-o-mano... I got a lucky ping, and while we were both "riding the edge"... he stalled... and I stalled... he caught the ground... I JUST managed to pull out...
Ponies we were in.... man was I pumped ! But it isn't like I saddled and owned him by any means. I got lucky... but still cool.
-
In AH2 killing La7's using the F4U-1:
You have to throw caution to the wind. In the last few months my 8-10 attempts at a six shot closing from 400 yards have not damaged one. The plane form, or front quarter shots take them down. That is not to say a snap rear quarter hit has not occurred, it just won't damage them in my experience. The La7's turn inside the F4U at > 200 ias. The vertical scissors is one manuever that works and gives that frontal area or plane form to shoot at. Once you get the La7 vertical and slow it down the flaps on the F4U come into play. It seems to be a waste of ammo shooting at them once their speed gets over 200 ias and you are in their rear quarter. I usually shoot at them though. Old habits die hard.
Your mileage may vary. A cannon equipped plane plane changes these tactics, but I don't fly them much.
Regards,
Malta
-
Originally posted by stantond
In AH2 killing La7's using the F4U-1:
You have to throw caution to the wind. In the last few months my 8-10 attempts at a six shot closing from 400 yards have not damaged one. The plane form, or front quarter shots take them down. That is not to say a snap rear quarter hit has not occurred, it just won't damage them in my experience. The La7's turn inside the F4U at > 200 ias. The vertical scissors is one manuever that works and gives that frontal area or plane form to shoot at. Once you get the La7 vertical and slow it down the flaps on the F4U come into play. It seems to be a waste of ammo shooting at them once their speed gets over 200 ias and you are in their rear quarter. I usually shoot at them though. Old habits die hard.
Your mileage may vary. A cannon equipped plane plane changes these tactics, but I don't fly them much.
Regards,
Malta
Ok...
I see a recuring theme in the discussion here. It is difficult or a waste of time to shoot from dead astern. That the only shots that really seem to be working well (if at all) are those taken with deflection at the plane form.
How realistic is this?
I've got a series of gun camera films (real) from WWII and the shots are all taken from directly astern with slight drift from side to side. Certainly no shots taken from the quarters or front quarters. I have a book with gun camera pictures and the same thing can be said.
So if it can't be done from astern in AH2... is this something that needs to be fixed?
-
Shaw's book is primarily about jet fighters attaining either guns or rocket solutions.
It also conducts ACM thru angles and comparative e states to arrive at an "effective guns solution".
Often shaw's examples induce one to risk the snap shot when separation cannot be immediately achieved to set up the angle or indeed when the angle cannot be set up to achieve the separation (depending upon circumstance).
But then Shaw is considering massive e states (jet fighters) and some of his snap shot examples can more easily be converted into lag/lead turns in AH if the snap shot is refused. (depends upon the nose down/up status)
Hence where Shaw would often suggest we offer the snap shot to gain angle, in AH our opponent may not take it any way as his prefered option would be to scrub e and adopt a lead/lag turn to gain his own angles adavantage.
There are little or no "stall" fighting tactics in Shaw. AH "stall" fighting is one IMO where both opponents incurr massive e loss to gain angle and force the combat down to very low mutual e state. The combatant who rides the edge better gets a sustained guns position as his opponent finally wallows.
-
Well, last night was much better.
I started taking 50% fuel + DTs and the Ki-84's roll rate is much improved. Of the three La-7s I engaged last night, one was shot down (from directly behind as it decided to run too late) and the other two withdrew with heavy damage. None of them landed a hit on me.
The improved roll rate really helps. The Ki-84 feels like a fighter now (as long as it is below 300mph) whereas before v2.02 it felt like a Typhoon without the speed.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
Well, last night was much better.
I started taking 50% fuel + DTs and the Ki-84's roll rate is much improved. Of the three La-7s I engaged last night, one was shot down (from directly behind as it decided to run too late) and the other two withdrew with heavy damage. None of them landed a hit on me.
The improved roll rate really helps. The Ki-84 feels like a fighter now (as long as it is below 300mph) whereas before v2.02 it felt like a Typhoon without the speed.
:aok :aok
Told you it was the roll rate...not the speed that was the real problem...
-
http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/totalstats.php?sortby=kill_sort
Ki84 is the number 2 killer in the game as of this AM. Just behind the LA7 - LA7 K/D 1.30 KI84 K/D 1.28 ( I expect the patch fix will begin tilting those numbers more in the next few days)
-
Originally posted by stantond
In AH2 killing La7's using the F4U-1:
You have to throw caution to the wind. In the last few months my 8-10 attempts at a six shot closing from 400 yards have not damaged one. The plane form, or front quarter shots take them down. That is not to say a snap rear quarter hit has not occurred, it just won't damage them in my experience. The La7's turn inside the F4U at > 200 ias. The vertical scissors is one manuever that works and gives that frontal area or plane form to shoot at. Once you get the La7 vertical and slow it down the flaps on the F4U come into play. It seems to be a waste of ammo shooting at them once their speed gets over 200 ias and you are in their rear quarter. I usually shoot at them though. Old habits die hard.
Your mileage may vary. A cannon equipped plane plane changes these tactics, but I don't fly them much.
Regards,
Malta
stantond,
I'm really not trying to beat on you...but what you keep articultating displays a serious misapplication of ACM. A fight between two aircraft is 3 dimensional not 2. almost never is a shot literally "dead six"... one your ~400 out on an la-7 or any plane you've done most of the work. now a -1 hog has enough ammo that a serious helping of .50's can be delivered. Once the lala breaks you get some shot window...now at 200 IAS (co-e) no lala on the planet can turn inside me in a -1.....ever never under no circumstances in fact no plane in the set can turn inside me. If I'm 400 out on you in a -1 hog I'm going to get a shot almost all the time...95%+ against a "simple" move...now there are guys who can string complex evasives and dance thru the shot window....but no one is going to simply "turn away" from me (or any decent stick) under the circumstances you describe.
What you basically keep saying is my gunnery just sucks and I cant hit anything but a HO or face shot with any regularity so you should do the same
As for the vertical scissors and the lala....against the typical lala noob sure. But no good lala drivers gonna accept a vertical scissors going down hill....and in a climbing scissors the lala will convert to a spiral climb and give you almost no chance....
You keep letting gunnery dictate your ACM vs letting your ACM setup your gunnery...
-
Originally posted by Zanth
http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/totalstats.php?sortby=kill_sort
Ki84 is the number 2 killer in the game as of this AM. Just behind the LA7 - LA7 K/D 1.30 KI84 K/D 1.28 ( I expect the patch fix will begin tilting those numbers more in the next few days)
The Ki-84 was, by far, the kill leader last Friday.
We'll have to wait for a couple of Tours to see where it stabilizes. I'd guess that it will be in the low top ten unless it's mid and high speed elevator authority gets fixed. Already we're seeing it's numbers fall off as people try it because it is new and then, discovering that many things can leave at will, go back to their old speed demons. I have even heard this said online.
-
La7 drivers are just plain evil... simple as that.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
La7 drivers are just plain evil... simple as that.
The lala is simply an other piece of iron, the man in the machine makes the machine go...simple as that:D
-
Shaw's book is primarily about jet fighters attaining either guns or rocket solutions.
It also conducts ACM thru angles and comparative e states to arrive at an "effective guns solution".
Often shaw's examples induce one to risk the snap shot when separation cannot be immediately achieved to set up the angle or indeed when the angle cannot be set up to achieve the separation (depending upon circumstance).
But then Shaw is considering massive e states (jet fighters) and some of his snap shot examples can more easily be converted into lag/lead turns in AH if the snap shot is refused. (depends upon the nose down/up status)
Hence where Shaw would often suggest we offer the snap shot to gain angle, in AH our opponent may not take it any way as his prefered option would be to scrub e and adopt a lead/lag turn to gain his own angles adavantage.
There are little or no "stall" fighting tactics in Shaw. AH "stall" fighting is one IMO where both opponents incurr massive e loss to gain angle and force the combat down to very low mutual e state. The combatant who rides the edge better gets a sustained guns position as his opponent finally wallows.
Shaw's book does have jet fighters in many illustrations, but the text, descriptions and concepts apply to all air combat, WW1 to present. Check out chapter 3, One-versus-One Maneuvering, Similar Aircraft. Angles fighting is discussed considerably.
Energy is related to the two aircraft. A Spad XIII flown by the "Hat in the Ring" sqad in WW1 was an energy fighter compared to the Fokker DrVII. The F4U was never designed as an angles fighter during WW2. However, against a Korean war Mig, the F4U was the angles fighter.
The energy-manueverabilty (E-M) curves described in Shaw, pg 387-400 help decide which fighter is an angles or energy fighter. Stall fighting is just using the envelope edge in an E-M chart. IMO, if you are riding the stall horn, you better have some altitude or be around a bunch of frendlies because you slow.
Quotes from "Fighter Combat" by Shaw:
"I started shooting when I was much too far away. That was merely a trick of mine. I did not mean so much to hit him as frighten him, and I succeeded in catching him. He began flying curves and this enabled me to draw near. Baron Manfred von Richthofen. " pg 166
"Speed is life. Israeli Tactics Manual" pg 230.
"The important thing in aeroplanes is that they shall be speedy. Baron Manfred von Richtofen". pg 405
Happy Veterans Day!!
Regards,
Malta
"What does not destroy me makes me stronger. Prussian Military Axiom" pg 331.:p
-
While we are going wildly off topic - The truly uber killer in AH remains the the Panzer with machine gun with the exposed gunner you can't kill.
The La-7 has 43 kills and has been killed 87 times against the Panzer IV H.
The Ki-84-Ia has 59 kills and has been killed 86 times against the Panzer IV H.
-
Originally posted by Zanth
While we are going wildly off topic - The truly uber killer in AH remains the the Panzer with machine gun with the exposed gunner you can't kill.
The La-7 has 43 kills and has been killed 87 times against the Panzer IV H.
The Ki-84-Ia has 59 kills and has been killed 86 times against the Panzer IV H.
By your way of reasoning the most uber killer in AHII must be:
The Stuka !!!
Ju 87D-3 has 33 Kills of Panzer IV H; Panzer IV H has 15 Kills of Ju 87D-3
-
But then Shaw is considering massive e states (jet fighters) and some of his snap shot examples can more easily be converted into lag/lead turns in AH if the snap shot is refused. (depends upon the nose down/up status)
Hence where Shaw would often suggest we offer the snap shot to gain angle, in AH our opponent may not take it any way as his prefered option would be to scrub e and adopt a lead/lag turn to gain his own angles adavantage.
There are little or no "stall" fighting tactics in Shaw. AH "stall" fighting is one IMO where both opponents incurr massive e loss to gain angle and force the combat down to very low mutual e state. The combatant who rides the edge better gets a sustained guns position as his opponent finally wallows.
I couldnt disagree more with this statement, it shows a lack of understanding regarding the subject matter....
to put it perspective (from my "limited" understanding)...
Shaws book discusses both theory and the application of theory.
Often the theory and its application are confused...to simply rely on catch phrases "speed is life" will only get you killed. Often speed kills...the application of energy or potential energy appropriately decides air combat encounters...all pure speed does is let you run away.
There is no such thing as "stall" fighting...I dont believe you will ever find the phrase used to describe a fighting doctrine anywhere in any book. Basic air combat "schools of fighting" can be broken down into three types...Angles fighting/energy fighting/Boom & Zoom. Historically most real life fighting was "boom & zoom"...90% of the victims never even saw there opponent and one of the great variables was eyesight. Most "dogfights" involved some variation of E fighting and very little angles fighting was done.
Strictly from an understanding of ACM the average "noob" here is light years ahead of his real life WW2 counterpart. Many of the real "aces" here have 5000+ actual combat hours.
What we have here is actually a much higher standard since in WW2 90% of the kills are the equivelent of an "AFK" boom & zoom here. Accordingly you need to apply the theory not just recite it. If you are in a spit V and bouncing a low hog...he's the angles fighter and your the E fighter. Since neither plane is a "double positive" the hog driver will attempt to use angles tactics to equalize E state while the spitty has to successfully prosocute an attack before E states equalize and he loses control of the fight.
Now if the Hog bounces the spit V he can utilize E fighting or B&Z style attacks (or run away if its Levi) while the spitty will use angles & e tactics to create enough convergence of E state to enable a shot window.
Everything you ever need to win any fight under any circumstances is right there in Shaw...unless of course the other guy read the book to:)
-
Originally posted by humble
The lala is simply an other piece of iron, the man in the machine makes the machine go...simple as that:D
like i said... the lala loonies are evil.. i imagine them all as teletubbies with forks and red panties :o
-
I also "saddle up" on the tracking shot but its not the best way to play the game, IMO.
I make lots of tracking shots, but I almost never saddle up on a bogey. Saddling up is the best way I know of to bleed off your energy and get blown away. This is not what that chart from Shaws book is intimating.
I like to make tracking shots (indeed all my shots) with at least 100mph of speed faster than the bogey. Last night a spit was stall fighting a couple of my countrymen. He reached the top of his arc, and I took his wing off as I zoomed by him at over 300 mph. He probably still wonders where I came from :D
As for stall fighting, why would I ever want to get co-E with a bogey? It certainly may happen (co-E), and I may find myself going guns defensive, but believe me that is a situation I rarely find myself in. There is a thing called Situational Awareness; it’s primary purpose is to keep you from getting into trouble in the first place, not getting you out of trouble per se.
Kinda reminds me of Dicta FokerFoder #6;
“The best way to shake a bogey off your six, is not to let him get there to start with”.
The only stall fight I would ever initiate is a “Rope a Dope” (surprising how many still take the bate on that old trick) :)
You may think I am talking smack, and so be it. Check my stats if you are bored, and I do expect them to get better with the improvements to the 190 FM this patch. And if you think it is easy to fly in the MA with a 190A8, try it out. She’s sortta like a girl friend with cross-eyes, you learn to ignore her faults if she can give you a good back rub… ;)
-
Ak,
The style that you ascribe to emphasizes a certain set of skills. Makes you neither better nor worse a pilot than someone with a different style.
If you fly in what we might call a realistic manner, using SA, and the dicta you quote you will have success that can defined by using a certain frame of reference.
However, the knife fighters that hook up with their opponent and duel to the death have their own set of skills. In a purely mano-o-mano context, the better knife fighters will always be considered better pilots. While the more realistic SA flyers will not.
I mean, in any type of dueling ladder you can't fly the SA style and if unsuccessful withdraw and wait for another opportunity. You have to latch on to your opponent and knock him down.
FWIW when I flew I dabbled with both styles but in the end game I prefered to fly SA-Realistic. Leave the knife fighting to other folks.
-
That is probably because a competent "knife fighter" can switch between E fighting and angles fighting with ease, whereas a "competent" BnZ'er has usually gone that route because he found angles fighting to hard.
-
Makes you neither better nor worse a pilot than someone with a different style.
My flying style in all probability makes me a worse pilot than most, although I think I have adequate flying skills. I emulate the flying style of Manfred von Richtofen in his later days. He may have survived the war if he hadn't blown his e to try and take out Lt. May, and got hammered by ground gunners.
My style is not to be a great pilot, but to be an effective fighter pilot . That is, to be an effective killer.
I am a heartless razor toting snake in the grass. I never want to be the kind of pilot people admire, I want to be the kind of pilot people hate (which really translates to fear).
I am the "Hun in the sun", ever dangerous..., watching…, waiting…, out there somewhere…, ready to pounce at the time least expected.
You will probably never find me on a duelling ladder, but you may find me on your six :)
-
I don't really think anyone "fears" cherrypicking Bore N Zoomers, no matter how "good" they are.
I think the strongest emotion most people playing the game to fight have for them is a mild sort of contempt.
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I make lots of tracking shots, but I almost never saddle up on a bogey. Saddling up is the best way I know of to bleed off your energy and get blown away. This is not what that chart from Shaws book is intimating.
...
Well, FWIW, I do saddle up but only for short durations. Depending on the plane I'm in I have a mental "timer" if you will of just how many degrees of turn from saddled up I'll follow another plane type. When the timer goes off, I reverse to a tail-to-tail to gain separation and climb. In a 190, the timer is pretty damn short - in a Spit it's considerably longer.
While this can be somewhat riskier than pure BnZ it does have an interesting and useful effect on the bogey. And that is that he *sees* you saddled up - so he'll either crank in the turn or start going wildly evasive most of the time. What he don't know is I already made my decision on how far I'll follow him. As often as not by the time he re-acquires me I'm 2000 ft over him ready to dive again while he's now orbitting at 140 mph.
This leaves me the option to dive and attack, to feint, or if I took an unlucky hit along the way to just blow past him and head for home.
I also agree that the "knife fighting" skill set is a whole book of tricks unto itself. Some people like that kind of game, some people don't. It's a matter of choice. What I find really ignorant is folks who insist that if you aren't going round-and-round at 120 mph with flaps and gear hanging you're "ruining the game" or "not worthy of respect." For 17 years there's been room for several ways to play the game - that ain't changed a bit.
Oh ... as for dikta's ... here's the one I put together almost a decade ago: DiKta GonZo (http://www.gonzoville.com/page.php?id=3)
As for the La-7 ... I dunno ... they always seem to be the first to die in any large engagement. Maybe the folks who fly 'em are mostly dweebs, or maybe they're the biggest threat so they get taken care of first. I think the La-5 is more dangerous - it's almost as tough to catch as the -7 and has a lot more manouever potential.
-
I think the strongest emotion most people playing the game to fight have for them is a mild sort of contempt.
Good enough for me :)
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
My flying style in all probability makes me a worse pilot than most, although I think I have adequate flying skills. I emulate the flying style of Manfred von Richtofen in his later days. He may have survived the war if he hadn't blown his e to try and take out Lt. May, and got hammered by ground gunners.
My style is not to be a great pilot, but to be an effective fighter pilot . That is, to be an effective killer.
I am a heartless razor toting snake in the grass. I never want to be the kind of pilot people admire, I want to be the kind of pilot people hate (which really translates to fear).
I am the "Hun in the sun", ever dangerous..., watching…, waiting…, out there somewhere…, ready to pounce at the time least expected.
You will probably never find me on a duelling ladder, but you may find me on your six :)
I would hazard a guess to say , that you will get bored with this approach with time, and look to develop other skills.
A lot of people start out this way because it helps them stay alive a bit longer. The problem is , you aren't learning the envelope of your plane and how to fly it on the edge , or how to E-fight ...
So what happens when another plane comes along co-e or with E , you run until you die ?
Grab Urchin some time and do some DA stuff in a 190 , you won't regret it.
-
Originally posted by Redd
...
Grab Urchin some time and do some DA stuff in a 190 , you won't regret it.
Urchin has done a fine job of documenting what he thinks of people who don't play the game his way. Why should anyone think he'd be willing to help?
-
Actually, DoK is right. I used to be, until people just stopped giving a ****. Now I've got a hard time finding people that even know how to use the views right to make sure they don't lose track of an enemy, much less how to actually fight.
-
Originally posted by Urchin
Actually, DoK is right. I used to be, until people just stopped giving a ****. Now I've got a hard time finding people that even know how to use the views right to make sure they don't lose track of an enemy, much less how to actually fight.
All kidding aside ... is it really this bad now?
-
Was any one asking what cherry picking was? :D
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Last night a spit was stall fighting a couple of my countrymen. He reached the top of his arc, and I took his wing off as I zoomed by him at over 300 mph. He probably still wonders where I came from :D
-
Yea, actually it is lol... the last 3 or 4 people that asked me for help kept losing me off the merge... and it isn't like I do anything extraordinarily weird off the merge... usually just a standard immelman.
I know at least some of it has to be my fault, I used to have the idea that people did want to improve at A2A fighting (any style, be it energy or turnfighting.. as long as people are fighting, I'm happy). I've become somewhat dissillusioned of that idea over the past couple of years, as the preeminent form of "fighting" seems to revolve around making sure the group you are flying with is significantly bigger, higher, and faster than whatever group you expect to run into.
I think that may have something to do with the Hit N Run style of fighting that seems so prevelant when you run into someone flying solo. Typically they are in a fast plane (dora, la7, p51, typh), make one pass and run for the hills... they may not be running. They might just not have any idea where the hell you got off to while you were dodging their pass, I dunno.
-
Its just what the MA has changed into Urchin.
People nowadays play to win. As long as they win, they don't care if there are any good fights during the process or not.
Welcome to the world where massive numbers of average guys steamroll the skillful few - a warring world.
ps) but frankly, I don't think that this new MA is worse than the old MA. Its just that there are a lot of ideas with the strat/organization system that can be tinkered with, to make a 'warring environment' more fun... except the strat system just never seems to change.
-
So what happens when another plane comes along co-e or with E , you run until you die ?
You should be able to either egress or go guns defensive long enough for someone to blow the bogey off your six. The 190 has a great roll rate, and given enough rudder will bleed speed quick enough to cause overhoots. There is also the split-s that can buy you time, and believe it or not some people can get thrown off by yo yo's occasionally. Sometimes you get shot down, it is after all a game.
Was any one asking what cherry picking was?
As I have often stated, I am a shameless cherry picker, and I vulch too, I'd drown kittens and strafe hospitals if it were part of the game :aok
I fondly remember that spit, I had just dived down to clear a KI84 off a Knights 6, the KI easly broke off, and I didn't try to force a shot, I was a little over 400 mph, I quickly avoided a HO by a Spit when I saw the other spittie doing a climb n stall. I pulled up gentley, lined him up and blew off his wing at under d200. Now THAT is a great cherry pick :)
-
Originally posted by Urchin
Yea, actually it is lol... the last 3 or 4 people that asked me for help kept losing me off the merge... and it isn't like I do anything extraordinarily weird off the merge... usually just a standard immelman.
I know at least some of it has to be my fault, I used to have the idea that people did want to improve at A2A fighting (any style, be it energy or turnfighting.. as long as people are fighting, I'm happy). I've become somewhat dissillusioned of that idea over the past couple of years, as the preeminent form of "fighting" seems to revolve around making sure the group you are flying with is significantly bigger, higher, and faster than whatever group you expect to run into.
I think that may have something to do with the Hit N Run style of fighting that seems so prevelant when you run into someone flying solo. Typically they are in a fast plane (dora, la7, p51, typh), make one pass and run for the hills... they may not be running. They might just not have any idea where the hell you got off to while you were dodging their pass, I dunno.
Well, I guess you and I agree on a lot more than I thought.
One reason I keep suggesting a "1942" plane set to rotate through the MA is that it'd give people a chance to explore the aspects of the game beyond the 589 mph vultch pass on an enemy field. All those planes are slower, accelerate worse, turn better, and generally more forgiving at low speeds. Alas, no one wants to give up their uber rides.
I'm no fan of Horde Warrior either ... it was one of the biggest reasons I left AW all those many years ago. No one would leave their home turf unless they had 40 guys around 'em at 30K.
I think the timidness from pilots cruising solo as much related to the Horde mentality as anything. Any prolonged fight near an enemy base is likely to turn into a gang bang.
You have spotted the lack of SA, but what I see a lot of is a lack of understanding of the planes themselves. I get an inordinate number of deliberate manouever kills on folks who just don't seem to grasp what their planes can do and where their hard deck is.
-
Dok i don't believe that would change things. People would just switch to the fastest ride of that period. They would still never fly their plane to it's full potential.
I think it's true to some extent that a pilot must a) know his own limitations and b) his planes limitations. A lot of people never learn either because they run at the first hint of losing their adv.
I personally don't mind when people run when they lose their adv. Though i do when they run before they lose it. Too many times have i seen a con dive on me, when they notice i've spotted them they level out and fly off out of icon range. Why???:confused:
back on topic: la7 is by far the best plane in the MA.
-
Originally posted by Urchin
That is probably because a competent "knife fighter" can switch between E fighting and angles fighting with ease, whereas a "competent" BnZ'er has usually gone that route because he found angles fighting to hard.
I'm not sure I would agree to such a generalizaton Urch. In some cases it may be so.... but I think it also plays to what the individual finds as fun. Some knife fighters simply do not have the SA to avoid getting ganged, some don't have the temperment for the "chess game" of the BnZ'er. Heck some BnZ'ers have no SA.
However, someone who primarily knife fights going head to head with someone who primarily BnZs or does the SA game.... I am going to lean to the knife fighter... especially if it is a 1 v 1 duel and the winner is determined by one or the other being shot down.
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
You will probably never find me on a duelling ladder, but you may find me on your six :)
Actually my MA flying style was more like your style. So I MIGHT find you on my six... the question would have to be asked... would you have surprised me... or would I have had enough E etc. to make you being there inconsequential. :D
-
It depends.. 1v1, the single "best" way to fight is to conserve your energy. If a guy that does the E-fighting bit and is good enough to stay behind someone once he's leeched all their energy away, he is well-neigh unbeatable.
If they are really good at ekeing every last bit of energy out of the initial zoom (off the merge), and then capable of maintaining that initial advantage they are also very tough to beat if you are fighting them in the same plane.
The only time a "knife-fighter" is really at an advantage over a BnZ type pilot is where they are forced to fight, either by having multiple cons in the area, or by one con who can force you to fight by staying faster than you.
-
Originally posted by Urchin
I don't really think anyone "fears" cherrypicking Bore N Zoomers, no matter how "good" they are.
I think the strongest emotion most people playing the game to fight have for them is a mild sort of contempt.
That would be a good subject for a poll !
Personally I can admire someone's ability regardless of their flying style. Back in AW there was a guy named Aerobat ! He was purely a B n Z guy. But he wasn't a "cherry picker" per se. That being, he didn't get his kills just by whacking an engaged opponent. Rather he hunted the fringe of the fight and engaged singles. He played his B n Z style til he no longer had an advantage and then he simply hit the door. Was almost ALWAYS in a P51D. Unless you had alt... he was VERY tough to corner... because he didn't stick around if he didn't have clear advantage.
His K/D was phenomenal.
Zazen used to fly purely B n Z. He was one of the best pure marksmen I've seen in the game. Would make shots I would never think possible. Again, as you say, a lot of folks reviled him for his style. (well.. probably for his channel one rants as well) So much so that in AW folks would use second accounts to follow him around so folks could try and catch him. But few could match him at his SA game.
OTOH list of "famous" knife fighters is long and distinguished. Just different approaches to the game.
-
Originally posted by Urchin
Yea, actually it is lol... the last 3 or 4 people that asked me for help kept losing me off the merge... and it isn't like I do anything extraordinarily weird off the merge... usually just a standard immelman.
I know at least some of it has to be my fault, I used to have the idea that people did want to improve at A2A fighting (any style, be it energy or turnfighting.. as long as people are fighting, I'm happy). I've become somewhat dissillusioned of that idea over the past couple of years, as the preeminent form of "fighting" seems to revolve around making sure the group you are flying with is significantly bigger, higher, and faster than whatever group you expect to run into.
I think that may have something to do with the Hit N Run style of fighting that seems so prevelant when you run into someone flying solo. Typically they are in a fast plane (dora, la7, p51, typh), make one pass and run for the hills... they may not be running. They might just not have any idea where the hell you got off to while you were dodging their pass, I dunno.
The horde thing plays a big part of this IMHO. If in a fast plane and you are working a turn fighter... you can't try and play the "drive 'em to the deck" and then see if you can finish them... rather you get about half way through the process and here come a bunch of his buddies and it is time to boogie.
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
You should be able to either egress or go guns defensive long enough for someone to blow the bogey off your six. The 190 has a great roll rate, and given enough rudder will bleed speed quick enough to cause overhoots. There is also the split-s that can buy you time, and believe it or not some people can get thrown off by yo yo's occasionally. Sometimes you get shot down, it is after all a game.
Well actually, as someone who liked to fly to survive... what is very frustrating is to play out the hand as long as you can... and then see it is time to leave. So off I go.... followed by someone who could care less if he dies.... so he will chase me for five sectors... fly through ack.... run himself out of gas.... all in an attempt to prevent me from landing. He can't catch me... so he only hopes his gas lasts longer than mine.
-
Originally posted by Urchin
It depends.. 1v1, the single "best" way to fight is to conserve your energy. If a guy that does the E-fighting bit and is good enough to stay behind someone once he's leeched all their energy away, he is well-neigh unbeatable.
If they are really good at ekeing every last bit of energy out of the initial zoom (off the merge), and then capable of maintaining that initial advantage they are also very tough to beat if you are fighting them in the same plane.
The only time a "knife-fighter" is really at an advantage over a BnZ type pilot is where they are forced to fight, either by having multiple cons in the area, or by one con who can force you to fight by staying faster than you.
I agree in an MA.. but in a duel... where SOMEONE must be shot down to decide the result.... a good Knife Fighter can be just as successful or even more so than the BnZ guy.
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
People nowadays play to win. As long as they win, they don't care if there are any good fights
Win defined by score. There you have it.
If I cared about score, I'd have quit along time ago. I care about fights. Still a group around with the same docterine.
To each his own.
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
You will probably never find me on a duelling ladder, but you may find me on your six :)
Get on Soup's six and yer probably gonna get showered with 20mm's from me :D
-
Originally posted by 4510
Actually my MA flying style was more like your style. So I MIGHT find you on my six... the question would have to be asked... would you have surprised me... or would I have had enough E etc. to make you being there inconsequential.
Excellent understanding of SA! You are not far from enlightenment, Nirvana may be attained Grasshopper :)
Originaly posted by Stang
Get on Soup's six and yer probably gonna get showered with 20mm's from me :)
Ah! Ah gang banger, ah I mean one who flys 'Loose Duece"???
You are to be commended Sir, too few actually fly with a real wingman, in the MA most just mill around the area together. Wing tactics are the ultimate way to get a bogey off your butt :aok
-
Actually the La-7 is kind of annoying for a different reason too. Not only is it the fastest, best accelerating, best climbing plane.. it is also the toughest. whoopee things just shrug off hits that'll kill other planes. Irritating as hell too.
Side note, this is why I get pissed in the MA. Flew a few sorties this morning, started off flying against 2-3 guys that were milkrunning a coastal base from a CV. After a couple 2v2/3's, about 5 more guys showed up on their side. After a few 2v8's, some folks started showing up on our side, so of course the newb chicken****s jumped out of the planes and into the manned ack on the CV. Same thing happened at the other fight I went to.. chased 2 chicken****s back to their CV ack, some newb polesmoker in the 5 inch held the trigger down till I died.
Log in tonight, have 3 fights. A 3v1, and two 5v1s. Logged.
It is ****ing boring, period.
I'm glad as hell EQ2 came out, even if it doesn't have PvP it is far more entertaining for me than this bull**** is.
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Excellent understanding of SA! You are not far from enlightenment, Nirvana may be attained Grasshopper :)
Why thank-you Ak.. but I had my BGO (brilliant glimpse of the obvious ) some years ago! I've been an SA devotee for quite awhile. I jeeped in reading DoK's writings and Twist's dissertations on flying the FW190a8 etc....
-
Originally posted by Stang
Get on Soup's six and yer probably gonna get showered with 20mm's from me :D
Yeah what Stang said.....
I mean Stang's nickname for me is "bait fish". ;)
-
Originally posted by Urchin
Actually the La-7 is kind of annoying for a different reason too. Not only is it the fastest, best accelerating, best climbing plane.. it is also the toughest. whoopee things just shrug off hits that'll kill other planes. Irritating as hell too.
I'm glad as hell EQ2 came out, even if it doesn't have PvP it is far more entertaining for me than this bull**** is.
I'm not sure the La-7 is the best climber... Matter of fact I used to climb in the Dora to drag us above 9k or so where I could out speed the LaLa. G10 used to be able to do that above 3k. Did they change the flight model so that no longer works?
Oh.. what is EQ2?
-
Originally posted by Urchin
I know at least some of it has to be my fault, I used to have the idea that people did want to improve at A2A fighting (any style, be it energy or turnfighting.. as long as people are fighting, I'm happy). I've become somewhat dissillusioned of that idea over the past couple of years, as the preeminent form of "fighting" seems to revolve around making sure the group you are flying with is significantly bigger, higher, and faster than whatever group you expect to run into.
I think that may have something to do with the Hit N Run style of fighting that seems so prevelant when you run into someone flying solo. Typically they are in a fast plane (dora, la7, p51, typh), make one pass and run for the hills... they may not be running. They might just not have any idea where the hell you got off to while you were dodging their pass, I dunno.
Although it makes for a very boring game it must be noted that this is precisely what most air to air figting evolved into during WW2.
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Excellent understanding of SA! You are not far from enlightenment, Nirvana may be attained Grasshopper :)
Good SA should start with viewing every con as an opportunity , not a threat.
Too many people think it's the other way round ;)
-
Originally posted by Redd
Good SA should start with viewing every con as an opportunity , not a threat.
VERY enlightened, I am humbled sir, and will certainly take that under advisement :)
Obviously there are individuals of high caliber in this game. It just takes some shaking to get them out of the trees. :D
Not of course do I think of myself as "high caliber". I'm just a razor totin' snake in the grass. :aok
-
Urchin:
Have a beer buddy, we all have bad days in AH2. Give it a rest, then hammer some bogeys, it'll perk you up :aok
-
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
VERY enlightened, I am humbled sir, and will certainly take that under advisement :)
Obviously there are individuals of high caliber in this game. It just takes some shaking to get them out of the trees. :D
Not of course do I think of myself as "high caliber". I'm just a razor totin' snake in the grass. :aok
sorry , I didn't mean that to sound cocky, what I mean is every con is an opportunity for a good fight (win , lose or draw) hell no-one wins em all. But we can all go in thinking we can win ;)
-
Arrogant Aussie:rolleyes:
<>:D
-
Originally posted by Redd
sorry , I didn't mean that to sound cocky, what I mean is every con is an opportunity for a good fight (win , lose or draw) hell no-one wins em all. But we can all go in thinking we can win ;)
If taken in a context of a single con or a couple of cons. But I think you have to evaluate the opportunity AND the threat of every con.
I desire for myself to have a basic "picture" of my immediate surroundings before I ever enter a fight. Simple things need to be identified, opportunities and threats. Not just what are my chances of downing my intended target, but also how long do I think it will take. What will change in the current picture with respect to how long it takes me to accomplish my task. What are the enemy's chances of being reinforced, what are my chances. What is my escape azimuth? Nothing worse than being in the middle of fight and having to make a run for it and taking off in the WRONG direction. :rolleyes:
When joining a muti-plane fight there is a process of choosing which enemy planes to attack first based on type, altitude, e-state etc. Generally my priority would be ... highest... fastest.... fastest capability... lower... slower. The first three are the biggest threats to my survival and should be eliminated first, the last two are targets of opportunity only.
Just some thoughts..... your mileage may vary.
-
Kill all la7's first w/ extreme prejudice and hatred. Then the rest of the pack is there for the taking ;)
-
I think Urchin and Dok hit the nail on the head...........
I see it in my own style of play........
I dont want to join my sides massive attack and look round the map for a smaller sets of opposing darbars.
On Okanzas (in my time frame) this is pretty rare.....
So I will launch from a nieghbouring field to one of ours which is under massive attack from the opposition.
The La7 is ideal for this for me......... I get bored of floating around at 15/20k in FW's or Ponies waiting for stuff to come up.
I want to get into an enemy pack with an exit policy (hope of any way) up my sleeve.
I know that if I go into or even close to the enemy pack and hit some sort of e sapping furball mode I will not get out. Going in chasing a few tails in the sure and certain knowledge that I may get a few and then die is to me ............ boring.
To me the challenge is kill a few and get home.........I could get 10 kills and to my mind they count for nothing if I do not bring them home. (not that I ever get 10 kills)
For this game play the La7 is ideal.
If the pack is a small one or indeed I have found some local small darbar activity I will use the La5 or play with other ac.
For ground attack I use the Typhie for much the same reasons.
The point is that I do pretty much as Urchin described when I am opposing overwhelming odds.
-
Originally posted by humble
to put it perspective (from my "limited" understanding)...
There is no such thing as "stall" fighting...I dont believe you will ever find the phrase used to describe a fighting doctrine anywhere in any book.
I agree as I said "stall fighting only exists in AH" (read sims)
Everything you ever need to win any fight under any circumstances is right there in Shaw...unless of course the other guy read the book to:)
But he does not address sims (for obvious reasons)
If you look at some of Shaws examples you will see some high e manouvres where he quite clearly proposes that one ac risks a snap shot from another to gain angle or separation.
My point is that the risk involved in this is far less in high e high speed "jet" type manouvering than in lower e low speed prop manouvering. In fact insome of his examples an AH opponent will not take the snap shot he will be able to lag or lead turn to a more stable guns solution. The example is there fore only valid for e states much higher than can be found in AH (unless we are talking 262 v 262)
Hence the theory of e states and angles as porported by Shaw is very valid to AH some of the examples to generate separation are not valid to AH and stall fighting does occur in AH and Shaws real world perspective quite rightly does not address this.
and to remain on topic much of Shaw can be used to kill or avoid La7's.......I have read it at least 3 times and constantly refer back to it. You just have to sort out the bits that dont apply.
-
Originally posted by Tilt
So I will launch from a nieghbouring field to one of ours which is under massive attack from the opposition.
The La7 is ideal for this for me......... I get bored of floating around at 15/20k in FW's or Ponies waiting for stuff to come up.
I want to get into an enemy pack with an exit policy (hope of any way) up my sleeve.
I do this a lot with Dora. I love that plane. :) Handles beautifully in that kind of situations. IIRC I got 12 once in a situation like that. :)
Originally posted by Tilt
I know that if I go into or even close to the enemy pack and hit some sort of e sapping furball mode I will not get out. Going in chasing a few tails in the sure and certain knowledge that I may get a few and then die is to me ............ boring.
To me the challenge is kill a few and get home.........I could get 10 kills and to my mind they count for nothing if I do not bring them home. (not that I ever get 10 kills)
Couldn't agree more! :) I fly more or less this way myself too.
-
Originally posted by Tilt
Snip...
I know that if I go into or even close to the enemy pack and hit some sort of e sapping furball mode I will not get out. Going in chasing a few tails in the sure and certain knowledge that I may get a few and then die is to me ............ boring.
To me the challenge is kill a few and get home.........I could get 10 kills and to my mind they count for nothing if I do not bring them home. (not that I ever get 10 kills)
Snip
Tilt,
Thanks... I couldn't have said it any better. About the only difference for me is I was hung up on German planes. So it was the Dora or G10 for me.
If the fight is of relatively equal numbers and I have help available I often flew the Fw190a5 or the 109F4.
-
I forget, what is the topic of this thread again? lol
-
Originally posted by Zanth
I forget, what is the topic of this thread again? lol
What I find to be the La-7's biggest weakenesses are the forward visibility and the guns themselves. It's pretty easy for an La-7 driver to lose sight of you amidst the cockpit framing. And unless he's under D300 he's wasting ammo firing at all. Against someone who knows what they're doing this won't help, but against most people in the MA it's enough to either shake them or get them far enough out of range that they're not much of a threat. Most MA pilots are so entrenched in the La-7's speed advantage and the on-paper lethality of 3 20mm's that they become easily fixated on a tail-chase. If you're flying with friends, then that means the La-7 is soon to become a Tender Vittle.
-
To me the challenge is kill a few and get home.........I could get 10 kills and to my mind they count for nothing if I do not bring them home. (not that I ever get 10 kills)
That is my objective also :)
I fly at about 10k, occasionally 12 or 13K, but such a height is counter productive to an effective pounce on most fights which are near the deck. You only need about 3k of alt over a bogey for a really effective bounce.
If you fly something that will not allow you to make a long extended run home, like the 190A8, you have to be much more discriminating than if you fly a Pony, Dora or a Russian Rocket. Those planes can just flat run you down with several slathering NIKI's or Spit following them to chew on the pieces. I wouldn't try attacking a base that is being vulched in a A8 unless there were others of my side comming so I could drag a few cons out to the slaughter :)
-
Bottom line, ( this is a statement not really looking for a disscusion). There are 4 planes in the MA that make a bad pilot average, an average pilot decent and a decent pilot good. Spit V/IX, La7 and the Niki.
-
MisFit,
I'd definately add the P-51D to that list.
And the Spitd and N1K2-J aren't annoying because they can be killed easily whereas the La-7 just leaves with a bit of damage. It is very irritating.
-
Originally posted by Misfit
Bottom line, ( this is a statement not really looking for a disscusion). There are 4 planes in the MA that make a bad pilot average, an average pilot decent and a decent pilot good. Spit V/IX, La7 and the Niki.
Hmmm....
A bad pilot in a lala is still just a bad pilot...but he does run faster:D
-
Originally posted by Misfit
Bottom line, ( this is a statement not really looking for a disscusion). There are 4 planes in the MA that make a bad pilot average, an average pilot decent and a decent pilot good. Spit V/IX, La7 and the Niki.
:rofl
-
Last night in the midst of an ongoing brawl between 128 and 129 it got to the point of bordering on the rediculous in terms of LA7s
My comment at the time was that just once I'd like to hear someone call something else besides "LA7s high"
The guys who were fighting the LAs, and the 262s that were also there, were in P40s, P47s, 38s, Hurri IIs and Spit Vs.
Dan/Slack
-
IMHO a bad pilot is a target, and a bad pilot in a LA7 is just a fast target :D
And often a overconfident target who bleeds off his E in furballing, and then he becomes a slow target :rofl
-
Karnak, read the thread I started on using manual trim for the Ki-84... It makes this Doctor Jekyll a genuine Mr. Hyde.
My regards,
Widewing